Avengers Endgame (Contains ALL THE SPOILERS)

[SlyJohnny]

They'd need to pull off another time heist, which means either defeating the sorcerer supreme chick and stealing her stone, or convincing her its super important and they can return them. Which means Strange needs to be on board.

[maglag]

They don't actually need the time stone for their time travel magic. Otherwise they wouldn't have been able to get an extra time stone from their past in the first place. Plus Captain Hydra returned to the "main" timeline after living a life of love in the parallel timeline whitout the time stone either. Pym magic particles are more than enough for traveling to the past and jumping between timelines.

And even if they needed the time stone, hey sorceror chick already fell for it once, meaning they can do it again. Infinite parallel timelines to steal from.

[deaddmwalking]

My daughters and I recently re-watched a couple of the older Marvel movies. Based on the post-credit scene at the end of Doctor Strange, Baron Mordo should be the primary villain.

I'd be curious if they decide to set it before or after Endgame.

[Chamomile]

The Sorcerer Supreme from the past did not say that creating timeline branches is bad. She said that depriving one of those branches of their most potent weapons against evil is bad. Which is very obviously what people's priorities should be. Trying to slavishly conform the timestream to the way things happened to go in your native branch of the timeline is just timespace jingoism. The goal when time traveling shouldn't be conformity to your remembered timeline, but making sure as many timelines as possible are good ones, and the Sorcerer Supreme's objection is valid by that criteria, because she says not that her timeline will be non-conformist, but that it will suck.

The problem here isn't that Thanos time warping forward creates a branch, because the Thanos-less branch is a better place than the alpha timeline we see in all the other movies so far. The real problem here is that returning the stones to their original timeline should create a branch itself, one where the stone was returned and another where it wasn't. If you can pick a specific timeline to travel to, why not just pick your own timeline and do the "kill baby Thanos" plan? Professor Hulk does say that they'll be returning the stones in the same instant they were taken, which might have something to do with it, but the movie never really makes it clear that exact timing is for some reason necessary, nor, for that matter, how Captain America is going to get the stones back where they're supposed to be within a single Planck instant.

[Whiysper]

I agree there was a thing about not depriving the timeline of it's greatest weapon - but the fact of taking the stone was what was declared to be causing the branch, because 'the Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time'.

I really, really hate the dimensional model of time travel, because it involves so many fucking handwaves and exceptions. Case in point - did Clint create a new timeline when he took the baseball glove? Or is that not a major enough item to have taken? Do actions create new timelines? Or literally only taking the Stones? What's the frequency of checking for those timelines? Every event? Every second? Every planck interval?

I get that it's a storytelling device, but goddamn the stories it tells are rarely improved by it's presence.

That said, I do agree with the point that in a dimensional model of time travel, the 'best' outcome is one aggregated across the timelines. But that in itself would logically lead to people being rescued from the crappy timelines and moved into other lines. Which leads rapidly to a fairly unrecognizable world. I for one expect them to in no way touch on any of this going forward .

[Chamomile]

Taking the "only branches that suck matter" approach means that a lot of the wackiness doesn't matter. Does Hawkeye visiting his old home for thirty seconds cause a branch? Who cares? The brief moment of distraction he caused one of his kids is very unlikely to make anything worse. Since the resulting timeline is basically identical to the original, it hardly matters whether he creates one or not.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Spider-Man: Far From Home is at least being marketed as embracing the new multiverse, with Quentin Beck being an alternate-timeline refugee; but given that he is also Mysterio, it's hard to say what's real and what's a con until the thing has been seen.

[Kaelik]

I agree there was a thing about not depriving the timeline of it's greatest weapon - but the fact of taking the stone was what was declared to be causing the branch, because 'the Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time'.

Except in the exact same scene Hulk suggests returning the stones would realign the timeline, so aside from that everything is fuck off nonsense, it's not just taking the stones, it is the change itself.

[Whiysper]

I agree there was a thing about not depriving the timeline of it's greatest weapon - but the fact of taking the stone was what was declared to be causing the branch, because 'the Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time'.

Except in the exact same scene Hulk suggests returning the stones would realign the timeline, so aside from that everything is fuck off nonsense, it's not just taking the stones, it is the change itself.

Hmm. Fair. So we're back to 'this makes very little sense'. So yes, multiple timelines/dimensions/whatever. Guess we'll see what Far from Home adds to the mix.

[phlapjackage]

but the fact of taking the stone was what was declared to be causing the branch, because 'the Infinity Stones create what you experience as the flow of time'.

If the Infinity Stones create time (and other aspects of reality?), how could Thanos destroy them and there still be time and space and ?

[Shrapnel]

BECAUSE COMIC BOOK SCIENCE DOES NOT AND NEVER HAS MADE SENSE OR BEEN CONSISTENT

Seriously, there is nothing more dull than arguing about how comic science works.

Anywho, I'm looking forward to what Phase 4 has to offer. I'm still holding out hope on a Death's Head movie. What other Marvel character would people like to see get a movie?

[phlapjackage]

Translation: stop talking about stuff I don't like

Are you Frank's alt account?

[Whiysper]

Shrapnel is less of an alt, and more like a stream of transformers-based consciousness. Although he does have a point in that they're unlikely to explain the 'science' any further .

I did wonder about the destroyed stones, and therefore the flow of time. Two thoughts:

a) That's why it's a multiverse now. Less the snaps, more the 'not having the 6 anchors that keep this shit consistent'
b) The stones are representations of the power, but they're more like mage spheres - the powers that they govern create the flow of time.

Best I've got.

[Shrapnel]

Translation: stop talking about stuff I don't like

Are you Frank's alt account?

I wish.

The other thing you have to realize is that most of the time I post things I do so half-asleep, so I'm not always at my most coherent.

But I really do think that discussing the science in comics is a fools game, and doesn't make for very interesting discussions.

[phlapjackage]

But I really do think that discussing the science in comics is a fools game, and doesn't make for very interesting discussions.

I get that, and I actually agree with you, I personally find discussing (most) movie-time-travel-science boring. But obviously some people find it interesting, so you should just let the discussion happen without comment. I don't think many people find imported-toy-guns-with-orange-safety-caps an interesting topic either, yet that discussion was held without interruption.

b) The stones are representations of the power, but they're more like mage spheres - the powers that they govern create the flow of time.

Yeah I would go with this interpretation too. The explanation of the sorcerer supreme just wasn't the whole complicated explanation of how the stones work (there were other explanations of the stones in other movies that I can't remember). Still kinda seems like a loose end writing-wise but oh well

[deaddmwalking]

Since we're postulating questions, I have ask...

In Infinity Wars, it ends with 'the snap'. As far as I can tell, Thanos is absolutely fine. It didn't hurt him in any significant way.

In End Games, he destroys the stones and it 'nearly kills him'.

If using the Infinity Stones at all results in a near death experience, he really shouldn't have been able to use them twice (or should have died the second time). If using the Infinity Stones doesn't nearly kill you, then Tony should still be alive.

Right?

I could buy the argument that destroying the stones is more harmful than using them, but in that case the ending of End Games feels inconsistent.

[Whiysper]

This is sort-of covered in the arc.

Using the Infinity Stones at all requires a certain 'power' - so, Ronan can attune one with little effort, Quill while half-celestial can almost hack it (and needs Gamora/Drax/etc to assist), and Thanos can, with the help of the Gauntlet, attune all 6. Because Gauntlet Artifact, and he's the Titan Eternal, and an end-boss .

So, he uses them as tools, and survives the experience - no visible damage, agreed. All good.

Then he blows them up - 'reduced to atoms'. THAT causes some serious backlash! Either directly releasing the energy, or it's a bigger job, or... who knows. I personally reckon it's a bigger job, because the landscape seems unaffected.

Tony should have died the second he attuned all six at once, let alone activated them . Presumably the armour was shielding him from some of it? Dunno. But if half-god Quill couldn't handle a single stone - earth-man should have evaporated ;D. But that wouldn't have been as epic a scene, so here we are!

[deaddmwalking]

I got the impression that holding the gauntlet protected you from the 'directly holding a stone' piece, since it was passed from person to person without harm. I know Quill didn't die when he held the stone directly, nor did Ronan.

What makes Ronan more powerful than, say, Tony Stark? Isn't he just a normal mortal that wanders the universe blowing up what he perceives as enemies of the Kree?

[hyzmarca]

If using the Infinity Stones at all results in a near death experience, he really shouldn't have been able to use them twice (or should have died the second time). If using the Infinity Stones doesn't nearly kill you, then Tony should still be alive.

Most of the damage was caused by gamma radiation, which is why the Hulk was able to survive with only an injured arm, gamma radiation doesn't cause his cells to breath down, it strengthens them. But even then, it still hurt him.

Tony, on the other hand, is not a Hulk. He doesn't have resistance to gamma radiation, so his DNA has just been shredded and his cells are rapidly breaking down. The good news is that he took a sufficient dose to kill him quick, because a slow death from radiation exposure is not pleasant.

[Schleiermacher]

What makes Ronan more powerful than, say, Tony Stark? Isn't he just a normal mortal that wanders the universe blowing up what he perceives as enemies of the Kree?

Good question.

In the comics (and since we have no information either way from the movies, we might as well assume the same goes for the MCU) Kree Accusers like Ronan are extremely kickass, but it's all because of Kree technology and genetic engineering, they don't have any "innate" powers. So Ronan is sort of like Kree Captain America or War Machine in that regard.

Maybe the biological component of that protects him in a way that armor doesn't, that's my best guess.

[Kaelik]

My understanding from All The Different Shit is that Kree are in general like souped up humans, naturally, but in addition to that they are further heavily modified by genetic engineering/merging with technology stuff.

I cannot speak to Ronan personally, but I suspect that as a Kree with modifications he can probably handle a stone for a bit, and also I think different stones effect people differently? Also it seemed like he couldn't handle the stone on his own generally either, like it was clearly effecting him, even when channeled through his big hammer which presumably is science tech that is like a shitty version of the gauntlet.

[SeekritLurker]

I enjoyed it. But the time travel aspects don't hold up to any sort of scrutiny.

But my theory on the Black Widow movie is that Cap fixed it - when he went back in time to put the Soul Stone back where they found it, he undid Widow's sacrifice.

This also has the benefit of giving Steve Rogers one last shot at the Red Skull on the way there.

[Pariah Dog]

Frankly, I wanted the two of them to pitch Red Skull off the cliff instead.

[MGuy]

I don't think you can undo soul stone sacrifices. Is It's been a while since I've seen the movie at this point but I'm pretty sure that's the case they lay out and so BW and future Gamorah are out permanently.

[Pariah Dog]

Speaking of comic book science that makes no goddamn sense:

The Sorceress Supreme told Hulk that the infinity stones are responsible for maintaining the flow of time. In the future the stones are gone because Thanos blew them up. Shouldn't this put an end to the whole time/space continuum?