Pathfinder 2e

[Axebird]

It says something that scaling the numbers downwards never seems to enter people's heads as a solution when designing games. Forget 4E being 'gamey', trending towards larger and larger numbers is what's making these things feel more gamey.

The scale of numbers is mostly the same in PF2, probably a little bit lower. Bonuses are a lot harder to come by.

[magnuskn]

But the number scale seems very bad. Just that huge damage the game ends up with, rolling giant stacks of d12s multiple times a round (can I get a 20d12+14 crit?) is probably not going to be fun, it's just a bad result of their design strategy, and as far as I can tell it's the optimal solution to the giant bloaty monsters.

I don't know, if rocket tag is still in the game at higher levels, what's the point then? I thought that was one of the things they wanted to fix. But apparently rocket tag is now the providence of martials, instead of casters being able to do it, too?

[tussock]

Rocket Tag was not a description of a short fight, it described a scene where one side won initiative and the other side was then dead, no matter which side won it. This is normally getting well into round 2 even in ideal conditions and average dice, and a fair bit further depending on what the monster brings to disrupt the game plan, as all Voltron schemes are quite sensitive to misplaced pieces.

Give or take for the Monk getting a crit on a Sleeper Hold, or any critical fail on various saves, which go the other way, those are all quite rare at best, that I can find.

--

Having said that, and while I haven't done a proper study of the monsters, I don't think they have the tools to disrupt much, so it looks a reliable plan.

There's modest damage, various resistances to things, some anti-kiting stuff, which is all still solved by throwing more damage at them (and also flying at high levels so they don't kite you).

Like, Marilith, CR 17, at 17th level a two handing fighter, no shield, would be 9+ to hit her and she'd be 8+ to hit him. She can boost her AC by, well, sucking at life, but really she has a 50 damage attack vs one guy, or 28 vs all in reach, all at 8+ which often miss, or an 18 damage area attack save for half.

A 17th level Fighter should have near 250 hp, and yeah, she's not gunna live five rounds no matter what she does, and can't kill him that quick anyway. 380 hp on the Marilith, can't solo it, but as a party it's doomed, exact size of the d12 pile by then tricky to know, but it's enough.

Mind you, might have 150 damage to heal. Not sure how that works yet.

Supposed to be a super-hard Solo for 13th level PCs.That's more like 14+ for PCs to hit her, she'd be 5+ to hit at worst, Fighter under 200 hp might stay up four rounds, should sort out 8+ to hit depending on it not critically succeeding a save, and four attacks with teamwork, but will struggle to beat 60 damage per round with the less awesome weapon, and no one else can expect to hit much or bring much damage. I would not want to face it before 14th-15th just because you can't really kite her at all.

By 19th it's a speed bump, can pop a high AC by not really doing anything, doesn't help.

--

So they definitely did their math homework. It holds up. It's just the RNG is the most responsive to bonuses of any d20 game I've seen and cooperating to get one character further up it pays off big time, and the only thing I can find does that full on is melee grunts.

It's not all that different to Tome characters in hit rate and damage output until you go Voltron, just the monsters have 2-3x as many hp (while damage spells are worse!) and basically never fail a save (because most useful 3e/PF "failed save" effects require critical failures in PF2, which are very rare).

I'm not really sure why they nerfed damage spells. I get they can clear mooks on critical fail saves, but mooks don't do anything, they can't hit and you can't miss, it doesn't matter. Damage is the new goal, and the monsters so bloaty, why nerf fireball again? 35 area damage at 10th level for a 3rd level spell seems, underwhelming, they cut it to 21.

[GâtFromKI]

Multiple attack penalty -5 stacks every time you make a Strike action.
Quick gives you an extra Strike action.
So being quick gives you a -15 attack, if you use all four actions to make four Strikes.

The multiattack penalty cap at -10; a hasted fighter attacks at 0, -5, -10, -10.

(Haste is 1 target, 1 minute duration, and its actual effect is to give 1 attack at lowest BAB. The fighter doesn't get hasted because no one casts the spell.)

[tussock]

Cheers, Gat. p178, missed that. But nah, that -10 is great once you can hit with it, and the Bard cantrip is better.

That in general ... MOAR DAMAGE, like, a lot more. Jolly good. Trick still works and monsters die a good bit quicker because that just makes the damage curve even steeper in the bit you can actually reach.

Correct my previous ~170 damage average up to ~200 average per round. That helps heaps with the biggest ones. Probably not a great trick at lowest levels mind you, monsters don't really have the hp to worry about a big weapon until CR 3.

[GâtFromKI]

Cheers, Gat. p178, missed that. But nah, that -10 is great once you can hit with it, and the Bard cantrip is better.

The bard cantrip takes one action and gives it to another character.

At best, it's a "meh OK" ability. There are time where character B may make a better usage of his actions than character A, so transfering one action from character A to character B may prove useful. But if it's always the best use of the action of character A, he should probably play as character B to have useful actions in the first place.

Even as a buffbot bard who can't do anything useful by himself, the cantrip isn't very useful since it prevents the use of Inspire courage.

And now, the punchline: the cantrip costs a feat.

So no, no one uses the cantrip because no one takes the feat. The bard spend too many feat multiclassing as a fighter to get good armor and survive the optimization hell of Path 2 to spend useless feat.


... Because Path 2 is an optimization hell. If you're lagging 1 point behind the max value you can can in AC or save or anything, you die quickly on a lucky critical.

Every monster of level N has a higher to hit than a fighter of same level. If the monster is able to hit you on a 9+, it means he's making twice more critical than if he needs a 10+. So the strictly minimum AC you want is (10 + to hit bonus of an optimized fighter of your level + 1 or 2 or 3) - and even then, a level N+1 or N+2 monster will quickly crit you to death.

AC of a level N monster is set to be hit on a 8+ to 10+ by an optimized fighter of the same level. Even if you optimize, you're lagging 1 or 2 point behind the fighter. I don't know where you've seen you can hit on a 3+.

You took the marilith as example. The marilith is level 17, so a single marilith is a trivial encounter at level 17. At that level, an optimized fighter has a to hit of +30 (+20 prof legendary +6 Str with a magical item +4 weapon). The marilith has an AC of 39, hence the optimized fighter hits on a 9+ and crit on 19-20, every other character crits on 20. The marilith has +30 to hit (as much as an optimized fighter - it seems highest level creature "just" have the to hit bonus of an optimized fighter instead of that value +2) ; your AC is around 40 (10 + 19 master proficiency that only fighters and paladins get +7 Armor and Dex +4 magical bonus) and you don't want to be 1 point lower or any monster of your level crits on a 19.

She has +29 Athletics. That's more or less the max Athletics you can get at that level (+20 prof legendary +6 Str with a magical item +3 legendary item) (note : she attains that score by not being proficient in athletics) ; maybe you can push to +31 with a +5 item. So the marilith attacks with her tail, inflicting a few damages and grabbing you on a 10+, and then she gains +6 AC, going off the RNG for every non-fully optimized character. You can escape/break the grab on a 10+ if you have max Acrobatics/Athletics for your level, and she still have 5 attacks of opportunity with reach 10 feet if needed. If the 10+ check is too high, she just do a grapple (+29 against your Fort DC, which is far lower than your AC). And she fly - I'm not even sure flying is automatic for level 17 PCs in Path 2. Spells have a very short duration, the Pal gets a feat to fly at level 18...

And she's a trivial encounter. Of course the party will kill her - when 4 character are beating the shit out of an equal level . But I don't know where's you've seen it's possible to hit on a 3+ in Path 2 - an optimized fighter needs a 9+ to hit anything of his level that doesn't have any notable defense, how can it become a 3+ for everyone in your mind?


... I'm not finished.

Out-of-combat, she has +29 Stealth, has much as your almost fully optimized rogue (+20 prof legendary +6 Dex with a magical item +3 legendary item); the +5 stealth item is level 18, per the wbl rules the whole party find two level 18 items during the course of the level 17, so there's a very slight possibility that the rogue is fully optimized and has +31 Stealth. Your perception is max +23 (+17 trained prof +6 Sag with a magical item); maybe there's a mandatory +5 Per item, i dunno, at that point I don't really care anymore. Anyway, since not all character are rogue with optimized stealth, she's probably able to out-stealth the party.

She has +31 Deception, more than your optimized Deceiver (and far more than your puny Perception will ever be able to counter), +31 diplomacy/intimidation (more face skill with higher bonus than the optimized bard), +27 Thievery while not proficient, +28 Perform while not proficient, +25 Survival while not proficient, etc.

Bestiary p. 21 "Trivial encounters are so easy that the characters have essentially no chance of losing; they shouldn’t even need to spend significant resources unless they are particularly wasteful. These encounters work best as warm-ups, palate cleansers, or reminders of how awesome the characters are."

"Hey guys, look at how awesome the characters are! Here's a monster that out-fight the fighter and out-skill the rogue and out-Per the cleric; but since you're 4 and she's alone, you can beat the shit out of her. Now let's make... a violin contest! Oh sorry Mr bard, you're not good enough compared to a non-proficient trivial monster lol, you should have spend your wbl on a legendary violin. Do you feel small in the pant? Does every player feel small in the pant? Can I resume my story without any player interference?"

[FatR]

I have to thank all the people who read carefully into the math. I've tried to get into PF 2, started to write down points for a review, and then I get to feats lists, with 30+ fixed choices per level 1-20 career, most of which give utter bullshit like conditional +1 damage and make Weapon Focus seem an example of a well-written feat, and then I just was unable to go on anymore, because it was like they tried to make a system to repel me.

[GâtFromKI]

Btw, on the paizo messageboard, there are playtests by someone named Colette Brunel which are a lot of fun to read. Link here.

Colette is DMing as a psychorigid DM who play every rule as it is written - and i think she's right since it's a playtest, not a "can you houserule this game enough to make it playable" test. It leads to some sort of so bad it's good games, where everything is clunky and cumbersome, and every game leads to a frustrating and embarrassing TPK. Her game reports are very factual, serious and first degree, being so serious while describing situations that are so absurd is hilarious (at least for me).


An example of her game: in the second adventure of the playtest, PCs are in the wilderness and she uses the exploration rules as they are written. So one PCs uses the stealth tactic while every other one is looking for danger.

Except the adventure book says: "If the hyenas detect the characters (usually because the characters’ Stealth check results are less than the hyenas’ Perception DCs or because the characters aren’t trying to be stealthy), they attempt to sneak up on the group, using Stealth for initiative; otherwise they use Perception."

Not every character is trying to be sneaky, so there's an ambush. No way to detect it. Just roll for init. That's what the book says, so that's what Colette does. The searching tactic literally accomplished nothing : that's not even a Per roll to detect (and maybe avoid) the ambush, it's just "you're ambushed, roll Per for init".

Hence, during the next part of the walk, every character uses the stealth tactic. which does nothing in the second encounter. So the PCs go back to the initial tactic of 1 stealthy character and 3 searching characters. As it can be expected, the third encounter is an ambush again, looking for danger accomplish nothing and the only way to avoid it is to have a stealthly party...

[Count Arioch the 28th]

That was enough for me to find her. She sounds like one of us except with more self-control.

[SlyJohnny]

You've got more patience than I have. I was interested enough to check it out, but quickly gave up on google and navigating that ugly forum.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Here's one.

Her playtest group seems to have a high ragequit-based turnover, so if anyone would like to join in her ridiculousness, she proffers her Discord contact info a few times.

[erik]

I think it’s ok to link other forums such long as we aren’t doing it to shitpost over there. Our historical forum invaders have either matured or left, so hopefully that issue is bygone.

Edit thanks angel

[Mask_De_H]

I know that person; they do optimization work and math hammering on /tg/ while posting Touhou images.

E: She is legit on the spectrum, so her playing hyperrigid isn't to prove a point. That's just how she is.

[Jason]

E: She is legit on the spectrum, so her playing hyperrigid isn't to prove a point. That's just how she is.

That makes her an amazing playtester, though

[GâtFromKI]

I think it’s ok to link other forums such long as we aren’t doing it to shitpost over there. Our historical forum invaders have either matured or left, so hopefully that issue is bygone.

Thanks, I've edited my post to add a link.

[tussock]

Cheers, Gat. p178, missed that. But nah, that -10 is great once you can hit with it, and the Bard cantrip is better.

The bard cantrip takes one action and gives it to another character.

At best, it's a "meh OK" ability. There are time where character B may make a better usage of his actions than character A, so transfering one action from character A to character B may prove useful. But if it's always the best use of the action of character A, he should probably play as character B to have useful actions in the first place.

Even as a buffbot bard who can't do anything useful by himself, the cantrip isn't very useful since it prevents the use of Inspire courage.

And now, the punchline: the cantrip costs a feat.

So no, no one uses the cantrip because no one takes the feat. The bard spend too many feat multiclassing as a fighter to get good armor and survive the optimization hell of Path 2 to spend useless feat.

OK, so you're arguing from a rationalist perspective, about how things seem like they should work, which is a thing, but have you seen the results of concentrated buffs?

The return on moving up the RNG is very steep, and it can be steeper the more bonuses you get, especially for Fighters who have feats to power up the hit rate on their later attacks.

Each character trying to boost their own 2nd and 3rd attack starts from lower chance to hit and less damage than the pure melee classes, and they respond less strongly to bonuses on those later attacks.

So when the Bard uses a feat to give the Fighter a 4th attack, or an extra move to keep his 3rd, you can easily be putting out three times as many hits, at more damage per hit, with that action, compared to trying to be a shitty multiclass Fighter.

The classes seem to have spells and feats that suit their shtick. Stop thinking of the Bard as a crappy fighter, stop building him that way, he's there to inspire greatness in others, and there's at least a couple ways he can do that very well.

... Because Path 2 is an optimization hell. If you're lagging 1 point behind the max value you can can in AC or save or anything, you die quickly on a lucky critical.

No. The monster attacks just aren't doing enough damage. PCs have heaps of HPs, they're going to survive a crit and a few hits on top, from everything, and even if they go down on a streak of hits it's hero point time, no one dies.

PF2 is about contributing to a bonus stack for as many different things as players will be trying to achieve. There's probably a good one for fear effects, I suspect there's a bunch of grabby-wrestly stuff that is fairly OP, but I can't be arsed solving for it.

Every monster of level N has a higher to hit than a fighter of same level. If the monster is able to hit you on a 9+, it means he's making twice more critical than if he needs a 10+. So the strictly minimum AC you want is (10 + to hit bonus of an optimized fighter of your level + 1 or 2 or 3) - and even then, a level N+1 or N+2 monster will quickly crit you to death.

You'd think so. But again, math. The average Fighter vs the Average solo, it's a coin flip as to if using a shield or d12 weapon is better. But if you get bonuses to hit from other characters, the RNG multiplies your damage output very steeply and then the monster is dead before it can even possibly kill you on perfect dice, so the shield is rubbish. Also DR 5 once per fight is not good after like 2nd level.

You think taking crits is bad, but it's irrelevant. Failing to Voltron is bad, because then the monsters live long enough for that to matter.

#Maralith

And she's a trivial encounter. Of course the party will kill her - when 4 character are beating the shit out of an equal level . But I don't know where's you've seen it's possible to hit on a 3+ in Path 2 - an optimized fighter needs a 9+ to hit anything of his level that doesn't have any notable defense, how can it become a 3+ for everyone in your mind?

No one else matters, in a Fight they are boosting the Fighter (or whoever else is the big damage focus). They use their first attack and it hits or it doesn't, over a couple rounds that adds whatever it adds, often helps a bit. Then support the actual damage dealer.

Circumstance penalty to AC, almost always -2 AC. Flanking, whatever. -4 AC is helpless, but if they are that helps dig through the bloat too.

Conditional bonus to attack. Heroism gives +2 (+3 if desperate). Bless +1 is trivial, Inspire Courage +1 if you forgot Bless.

Circumstance bonus to attack. Assist action. Whoever has the worst damage output finishes the Voltron by giving the Fighter another +2 to attacks.

You are now hitting on a 3+ as a primary combatant, and your damage output with a big weapon is much bigger than anything else the game can put out, when you consider your allies usually still have a primary attack to add.

Optional: Conditional penalty to AC, from Sluggish. Synesthesia is the go-to at Sluggish 3 and still works 1 round on a successful save. Lots of things drop Sluggish 1 or 2, including Bombs or a Fighter feat if no one else is doing it. So can hit on a 2+/5+/10+ if you want, it's there, and it does lots and lots and lots of d12s damage.

... I'm not finished.

Yeah, so you're missing the possible buffs that PCs can add up and the monsters can't, which also tend to turn off all the monster's special attacks and spells, and you're missing just how steep the response to bonuses is.

PF2 is not about each character doing the same thing. They specialise in their own thing, and everyone else adds bonuses to it so the critical fails go away and the critical success come online. Big stacks are available by combining penalties to foes and bonuses to allies, and a character that just gives such bonuses to the party instead of attacks is a fine choice in life.

I don't think I've found the only good stack, but I found a big one, so it works extra well, and it's interesting because it takes teamwork, positioning, and the monsters can at least potentially (if not reliably) do things to disrupt the Voltron.

[Whiysper]

Oh my god, this is awesome reading. I agree with the circus of farce description! Thanks for the link, definitely 'how-not-to-design-it' material .

[nockermensch]

I know that person; they do optimization work and math hammering on /tg/ while posting Touhou images.

E: She is legit on the spectrum, so her playing hyperrigid isn't to prove a point. That's just how she is.

Doing god's work, I see.

EDIT: Holy shit, I went to /tg/ to look for PF2 threads there and found the same person above asking for more victims people for her playtests. The invitations look pretty typical, in a strict DM, no-nonsense way, until the penultimate bullet point:

>• 6. Players should be willing to be cute anime girls, cute anime girls (male), or very cute anime boys. Expect most NPCs to be the same. This is a major deal-breaker, but it is part of the GM's desired aesthetic.

This is beyond amazing: Now you have to picture those soul-scarring, horribly punishing TPK-fests, only everybody is super moé.

Wait, isn't this just Made in Abyss?

[GâtFromKI]

You'd think so. But again, math. The average Fighter vs the Average solo, it's a coin flip as to if using a shield or d12 weapon is better.

The marilith isn't an "average solo" against a level 17 party. It's a trivial encounter.

It's an "average solo" against a level 15 party (a lone marilith is an "high-threat" encounter at level 15 party. "High-threat encounters are a true threat to the characters, though unlikely to overpower them completely. Characters usually need to use sound tactics and manage their resources wisely to come out of a highthreat encounter ready to continue on to face a harder challenge without resting." It's not even a life-threatening menace).

Your level 15 fighter has +27 to hit (+18 proficiency +6 str +3 weapon). He hits the marilith on a 12+ (providing she doesn't use her defense action). Let's stack every bonus you said : flanking -2 AC, heroism +3 attack (using a max-level slot), random stuff expect assist +2 attack. Now the fighter hits on a 5+.

The 3+ to hit is against trivial solo monsters and with full-buff and probably fighter-only (other martial characters have at least 1 less to attack). Do you sincerely waste spells slots for every trivial encounter? Heroism is single-target low-duration, you have to cast it every encounter. Do you only play with fighter-rogue-cleric-wizard? Sounds boring to play the same stuff over and over again because other martial can't attain the 3+ to hit.

Circumstance penalty to AC, almost always -2 AC. Flanking, whatever. -4 AC is helpless, but if they are that helps dig through the bloat too.

Fun fact #1: monster can flank.

Fun fact #2: monsters have access to detrimental conditions. eg The mutilation demon is able to paralyze PCs - and since he's not a loser, he doesn't bolster them.

Fun fact #3: A marilith with 8 hours of downtime may summon a mutilation demon.

Conditional bonus to attack. Heroism gives +2 (+3 if desperate). Bless +1 is trivial, Inspire Courage +1 if you forgot Bless.

Fun fact #4: monsters have access to conditional bonuses. A Marilith passively buffs the mutilation demon she has summoned.

Fun fact #5: If you like cheese, a lone marilith + her summon + a bunch of goblin war chanters is still a trivial encounter at level 17.

Circumstance bonus to attack. Assist action. Whoever has the worst damage output finishes the Voltron by giving the Fighter another +2 to attacks.

...

I'm not even sure you've read the rules.

Assist has the attack tag and require a melee attack roll. For all intent and purpose, assist is a melee attack. Except it replace the damages by a low buff. People thinking it's better to give +2 to the fighter than dealing your ndx+Str damages right now, have brain damages - and should apply to work at Paizo.

Math details: if the fighter deal X damage per hit, a +2 to hit increase the damages by X*0.2 (average). Since everyone is in the same range of damages, other character's damages per hit are probably largely more than X/3 - eg the fighter deals 5d12+6 per hit while you deal 4d6.

Your damage > X/3 > X*0.2 = the fighter's damage gain.

Fun fact #6: since a critical failure at assist is detrimental, you should never assist your allies. You should always assist your enemies. I let you work on the math of this one.

Fun fact #7: if you like cheese, the goblin war chanters accompanying the marilith may assist the party fighter to set his attack to -#TEXAS.

[tussock]

Gat, seriously, just stop.

You're bad at this. Stop being bad at it.


+2 when you're hitting on 7+ or 5+ without it, on your first of four attacks, it's worth between 0.45 and 0.6 hits, depending on feats, moving up to 2.56 or 3.17 hits (assuming FF, because d12). If you don't hit that often, it's worth less, because again, the curve gets steeper as you go up it.

Anyone you'd want trying this, would be between 0.55 and 0.7 hits on their one attack (because their other actions are also better spent not attacking), at 11+ to 9+ needed to hit, around 50%. Where most characters will be because they aren't the Fighter and aren't the focus of the buffs, but still get some help from them.

Now, the fighter will want to be doing lots more damage, because it only works half the time, (though works better if your buddy doesn't ever crit fail and starts giving +4 sometimes), so, if you notice, the fighter is something like triple the weaker character's damage per hit without even trying, and also hitting over four times as often. The other shitty melee characters are not relevant, just help the Fighter.

Being a crappy combat class, like that thread where what, half the characters were multiclass fighter like that works, because that doesn't work, stop trying to be a shit fighter and just help the Fighter.

Also, fucking well wear heavy armour if you have Dex 14, it's a lot slower to get up from being dead than it is to wear a bit of armour. Those characters are not optimised. At all.

As much as I say you don't really need to optimise, you do have to not be stupid. 18 in the stat you do stuff with. If that's not also damage 3+ times a round, don't pretend to be a fighter, just help the Fighter.

#points others: if there's more monsters, the fighter's damage goes up, so does a lot of other classes. Mooks that you aren't supposed to use in the playtest? Because holy shit maybe someone has a damage spell just in case the DM is being a dick.

And hey, speaking of you're bad at this. "You help an ally attack the enemy or foil the enemy’s attacks against one of your allies. Choose one enemy you’re adjacent to and one ally adjacent to that enemy. Then, attempt a melee attack against the enemy’s AC."

Yeah, you're bad at this. Do you even spreadsheet, bro?

[GâtFromKI]

when you're hitting on 7+ or 5+ without it

You're not.

if you notice, the fighter is something like triple the weaker character's damage per hit without even trying

He's not.

#points others: if there's more monsters, the fighter's damage goes up

It doesn't.

Because holy shit maybe someone has a damage spell just in case the DM is being a dick.

I though they were spamming Heroism and Synesthesia at every trivial encounter. Now they have area damages spells memorized?

Yeah, you're bad at this. Do you even spreadsheet, bro?

No, I don't spent my time searching for all possible +1 for this piece of shit. It's a waste of time since no one will ever play it - except as a so bad it's good embarrassing-TPK-generator, but this play mode doesn't require optimization.

Anyway, since your posts only contains a bunch of random numbers and assertions, until proved otherwise I'll assume you don't spreadshit either.

The need of a spreadsheet to beat a trivial encounter definitely proves it's an Optimization Hell. The party doesn't contains a Fighter and a Cleric -> game over, the Fighter misses a +1 from Bless -> game over, etc. This game isn't playable for light enjoyment, the only way to have a chance of winning is to play as "a Fighter and his 3 pom-pom girls (including a healbot) goes on an adventure".

Listen, if you want to prove me I'm wrong, we can play together if you want. You play the Fighter, while I'm staying home playing Smash Bros; if you need to know what my character is doing, just assume he's giving his actions to your fighter.

[CapnTthePirateG]

So is it actually possible to bump a necromancer's death magic attack into the stratosphere so everyone crit fails all the time and you can go play something not PF2?

[Axebird]

So is it actually possible to bump a necromancer's death magic attack into the stratosphere so everyone crit fails all the time and you can go play something not PF2?

Your spell DCs are Level + 4. You get extra +1s on top of that at levels 10, 12, 14, 16, 19, and 20. Your average chance to actually land a spell on a creature the same level as you is about 40%. Critical failures pretty much never happen for opposition unless it's a swarm of things so low level they aren't even worth experience.

[tussock]

You were fun for a while, Gat.

I though they were spamming Heroism and Synesthesia at every trivial encounter. Now they have area damages spells memorized?

Casters have a lot of spell slots by 17th level, on top of a lot more spells sitting in items if they need them. There's no particular reason to not have a fireball scroll if you suspect the DM will pull some bullshit with lowbies at some point. OMG Player empowerment!

No, I don't spent my time searching for all possible +1 for this piece of shit.

Indeed, thus you demanding I do it, and then nitpicking and finally rejecting the result because it didn't fit your assumptions. That's very bad science, dude, I gave you all the names of everything, and you still didn't seem to understand any of it.

There's two bonus types, they can both apply to your opponent's defenses, and someone in your party's attacks. Not all are available for all effect types, but given how crits work, if you're making a character, maybe do some searching in the pdf and find out.

And if you're not, maybe just stop assuming nothing works out here in public where other people can see. There are buffs, they last, the RNG responds very strongly to them, and even though I haven't checked every fucking spell, it is obvious to see.

The party doesn't contains a Fighter and a Cleric -> game over, the Fighter misses a +1 from Bless -> game over, etc. This game isn't playable for light enjoyment, the only way to have a chance of winning is to play as "a Fighter and his 3 pom-pom girls (including a healbot) goes on an adventure".

Like that, that's a fine strawman. Did you mum make it for you?

There's obviously lots of characters work, and just like 3e you put an 18 in your primary class stat so yours does to. They even tell you which stat to put it in. The game clearly supports niche specialisation, and the use of an array of support abilities for characters operating outside their own niche. Because combat is common and dangerous, you want to make sure you can support the combat specialists so you are contributing.

Even if you're not contributing the exact same thing. If you want a game where everyone does the same fucking thing in combat, 4e D&D is shit but you can probably find a really cheap barely-used copy of all the books for it.

Also, If you want the game where Clerics are great at everything and the best party is just three Clerics and a Druid, and melee characters are actually a bit worse at melee than they are, well, 3e D&D and PF1 still exist. PF1 still actively in print!

In PF2, the melee specialists are around 25% above the non-specialists in ultimate damage output, minimum, and much further above the casters. You can boost a Cleric up that same RNG (like if the Fighter goes down) and still win fights, the Fighter just does it better.

Listen, if you want to prove me I'm wrong, we can play together if you want. You play the Fighter, while I'm staying home playing Smash Bros; if you need to know what my character is doing, just assume he's giving his actions to your fighter.

I mention the simple melee character because it's the easiest to check exhaustively.

But seriously ...

During combat, you trade off between casting spells and attacking with weapons typically the favored weapon of your deity. Most of your spells can boost, protect, or heal your allies. Your ability to channel energy lets you cast heal for your allies or harm on your enemies more often, depending on your deity.

Clerics are a constant trade off between doing the "I'm an avatar" trick and being a support character, I pointed out some useful support tricks for them, and now you're offended. How about, I don't know, fuck off? Games doing what they say on the tin is a good thing not a bad thing.

[GâtFromKI]

You were fun for a while, Gat.

I though they were spamming Heroism and Synesthesia at every trivial encounter. Now they have area damages spells memorized?

Casters have a lot of spell slots by 17th level, on top of a lot more spells sitting in items if they need them. There's no particular reason to not have a fireball scroll if you suspect the DM will pull some bullshit with lowbies at some point. OMG Player empowerment!

lol

At level 17 you have 5000 gp of item (and 1 level 14 item, 1 level 15 item, 1 level 16 item, and 1 level 17 item). A level 9 fireball scroll costs 2000 gp. A level 8 fireball scroll costs 800 gp, that's 1/6 of your wealth. A level 7 spell scroll costs 400 gp, and barely scratch an opponent worth 0 xp.

You have fireball scrolls because you're a moron. Non-retarded level 17 character have a second ability-enhancer item and 500 gp worth of random bullshit items.

Now, let's assume I replace the bunch of goblin war chanter by another bunch of 0 xp creatures: adult green dragon spellcasters; the marilith and her summon gain the effect of magic weapon, blur, haste, whatever. You use your level 7 fireball scroll, it deals 14d6 damages (av. 49) with DC 33. The dragons have ref +17 and 180 HP. None of the 0 xp dragon is dead. You use a second scroll. 9% of the dragons die. You've used one sixth of the wbl you can spend on consumable to kill a few 0 xp creatures.

If you want specifically Heroism and Bless on the Marilith, replace the adult green dragons with Elite Calistria Clerics. Ref +13, HP 110: you need two scrolls to kill them.

I'm only using stuff explicitly written in the book. A non-psychorigid DM could replace the divine decree or the prying eye of the mutilation demon with heroism: replacing a divine spell with another divine spell of same level should be balanced. Or he could use a 0xp Lich and replace its arcane casting with divine casting. But the point is: even playing by RAW, every bonus available to the PCs is available to the monsters.

You're talking about a game where the players optimize to the max while the DM plays dumb. That's a silly position. And even then, the players are barely at the level of opposition.

other random bullshit

You still didn't provide any real number or build. I'm still assuming you pull random number out of your ass. Maybe you have spreadsheet, but since you're stupid I can safely assume your computation are plain wrong - until proved otherwise.

I can't even understand what you're saying about assist; if you weren't stupid, you'd see you should always assist the enemy and never your friends.

I mention the simple melee character because it's the easiest to check exhaustively.

So i guess you didn't notice the Fighter is better at melee than any other class, including any martial. If the fighter need max buff to be on par with monsters, a barbarian will never be - a level 17 barbarian is essentially a melee cleric who has traded spellcasting for +6 damages.

Clerics are a constant trade off between doing the "I'm an avatar" trick and being a support character, I pointed out some useful support tricks for them, and now you're offended. How about, I don't know, fuck off? Games doing what they say on the tin is a good thing not a bad thing.

...

Just no. You give yourself far too much credit. I don't care about what you think a cleric should be because all of your advises are dumb.

Cleric are healbot due to the strange scaling of heal. A level 17 cleric has 9 free cast of max level heal, and he can fill his level 9, 8, 7, 6 and 5 slots with heal because even a level 5 heal is efficient action-wise: a level 17 fighter may deal 40 damage per action (using a +4 greatsword with 22 Str), a level 5 heal heals 40 damages per action not counting the Wis and other bullshit bonus. The cleric is a healbot because he fills every slot with heal because that's by far the best spell he has - and he has free heal on top of that so no one plays a druid.

Clerics generate such an amount of HP without even trying, a party without one can't keep up. That's what actually happens in the playtest: no cleric = game over, thanks for playing.

You would know that if you had actually looked at the rule.