On the Mary Sue-ism of Rey (Split off by (several) requests)

[phlapjackage]

Example pls? I really don't remember people being butthurt about new characters being too skilled before TFA. I'm sure it has happened, but I'd sure like an example to compare to. There were complaints about Jar-Jar and Anakin just killing people by incredible luck, but that's a different complaint versus being too competent.

Yeah sorry I didn't mean to leave it hanging like that, I got distracted then forgot to add it before posting. I guess I don't have any links handy atm, but I definitely remember lots of vitriole about child Anakin and how he could pilot and build/rebuild droids and pod racers. Are we confined to SW? I also complained loudly about that movie Kingdom of Heaven, the Orlando Bloom character (a blacksmith?) was way too good at other things too, like combat/architecture/agriculture.

pilot - flies a land speeder. For all we know she has piloted other crafts, since she says she can pilot. Finn says he can handle a blaster even though up to that point all he has done is hold his dick during the first battle of his life. Can't we trust when a character says they have some background training as it being indicated?

She flies the falcon really well, even though she's only in-movie flown a speeder and no reason why she would have skill flying a much larger, more complicated craft. Taken by itself, not a big deal...many other SW characters have done this, Anakin, Luke, etc. But then on to...

fight - displays proficiency at hand to hand by defeating several larger ambushers, school of hard knocks

Displays great proficiency with staff and hth. Ok, school of hard knocks, maybe not a big deal but now combining with great piloting from above, on to...

saber - already covered by "fight". it's a practically weightless wand of flaming death. If you can fight with a staff then this is easy mode. Unlike Rey, Luke has no reason to be proficient with melee weapons.Why even include this separate from "fight"? Are you just trying to pad your count of complaints?

For this, not padding - I think saber combat is distinct from "normal" hth. Although now I'm drawing from out-of-movie information about how lightsabers, because they are practically weightless wands of flaming death, need the guiding will and training of a Force-user to be effective. Like, ooops I chopped off my leg because I didn't realize I moved the saber that way because it's weightless. And saber combat relies heavily on using the Force to help guide the moves and the saber etc. I remember fan theories about Finn maybe also being Force-sensitive, since he was able to use a lightsaber so well too. So that's 3 things she's really good at with no in-movie justification for it, things are starting to pile up a little, then on to...

force - its barely-explained magic that is intuitive. people with lots of potential come into it pretty damn easily.

If your explanation is to throw up your hands and say "it's magic", that's a bad excuse and bad writing. Up to this point, most (all?) Force users are shown to have had SOME kind of training. Maybe it can happen, maybe she just wants it really hard, maybe the Force just does what the Force does...but now it's starting to be a longer list and we're on to...

fix - she's a scrapper. jury rigging and repairs are probably her primary skill set.

I don't really have a problem with this, except when you say "her primary skill set" it looks like everything is in her primary skill set. So she can do everything else and fix really well too and...

shoot - it's a pistol not rocket science. She shoots two guys. She doesn't have perfect accuracy. It's not like she mows down a whole platoon...you are just trying to pad the count.

I sort of agree with you on this one - after the fact, it does kind of feel like I'm padding with this one. But again, it's one more thing she can do, and does well (if not great).

How about her contact with Anakin's lightsaber and the visions that overtake her? Obi-wan's voice speaks to her, telling her that 'these are your first steps.' It's not a formal training scene, but it is something.

I don't remember this scene that well, but it could be something I guess. *sigh* I should rewatch the movie(s), but I really don't wanna

This isn't a gotcha, but is there any example of something Rey tries to do and can't do ? Any character flaws like whining about power converters or bragging about being such a great pilot themselves?

[Username17]

Is it possible to criticize a female character without being labeled this way?

Sure. But here's the thing:

• You have to criticize female characters for actual problems and not bullshit.
• You have to criticize female characters for things you'd criticize male characters for.

If your criticisms don't meet those two extremely low bars, then people are going to assume - correctly - that misogyny (unconscious or not) is the motivating factor of your criticisms.

And let's be clear: a character spontaneously displaying Mind Trick in a stressful circumstance after they and the audience knows they can use the Force is not something you can complain about and meet either of those extremely low bars. It just isn't. Complaining that someone whose actual fucking job is "scrapper/tech salvager" successfully fixes some tech obviously doesn't meet that limit either. Because: fucking obviously. If a male character's in-world job on introduction was "scrapper/tech salvager" there is no fucking way that you or anyone else would make the claim that there was insufficient setup in the movie for them to fix a piece of broken tech later in the movie. No fucking way.

The thing is that there genuinely are things about Rey that aren't good. More importantly, there are things about the movie and the direction of the franchise that are extremely terrible. But adding additional complaints only makes your case stronger if they are complaints that would stand on their own. If you pad your list out with things that are obviously bullshit, that looks like misogyny. It makes your position weaker and it makes us respect you less as a person.

-Username17

[zugschef]

Look, just inagine Rey was male. A male Rey would be an even worse character. Unless he was gay and Ren, too.

[MGuy]

Man that low bar with dubious qualifier that allows lots of room for anyone to call anything "bullshit" and with most of the people in this thread readily pointing out male SW protagonists also do bullshit it's a wonder that anyone is bring called sexist. I guess luckily Frank left in that qualifier or I'd be the one complaining about how words have meanings etc etc. I had just come to the conclusion that sexist here meant "judges a female character in a way I don't like". Instead it just means "I don't like your criticisms of this female so you must be sexist". Glad we established that.

[Korwin]

If I wanted to argue about Rey being a Mary Sue, I would look at her fight with Vader wannabe in her first movie, not the mind trick.

[MGuy]

If I wanted to argue about Rey being a Mary Sue, I would look at her fight with Vader wannabe in her first movie, not the mind trick.

Nah. That wouldn't be enough. I've seen good arguments for how she could get through that and every SW protag gets lucky at least once in their movies. Luke survives the death star fight. He manages to escape from Darth Vader (even with help). Everyone gets at least one thing. If Rey had just one accomplishment we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[phlapjackage]

You have to criticize female characters for actual problems and not bullshit.

You yourself have even said she is badly characterized, so it seems even you agree that Rey has actual problems as a character. Whether her problems are "bad characterization in general" or "bad characterization in terms of abilities she displays", it seems like a mighty big leap to then go to accusations of misogyny or sexism.

You have to criticize female characters for things you'd criticize male characters for.

which has been done, which is something neither you nor 8wave have done any work to determine if this is something male characters have been criticized for.

If your criticisms don't meet those two extremely low bars, then people are going to assume - correctly - that misogyny (unconscious or not) is the motivating factor of your criticisms.

OR it's an extreme way to dismiss arguments you don't like by crying "misogyny!" and without actually showing or investigating whether this is true or not.

And let's be clear: a character spontaneously displaying Mind Trick in a stressful circumstance after they and the audience knows they can use the Force is not something you can complain about and meet either of those extremely low bars. It just isn't.

You really love to make these sweeping, final-sounding statements with no proof or previous actual examples, don't you? I dub these "ex catrolla" statements (will it catch on?)

If a male character's in-world job on introduction was "scrapper/tech salvager" there is no fucking way that you or anyone else would make the claim that there was insufficient setup in the movie for them to fix a piece of broken tech later in the movie. No fucking way.

God this is so tedious, it's like you're deliberately misreading or misrepresenting the actual position(s) put forward. I'll say again, it's not that a "scrapper" is good at fixing things, it's that they're good at so many things in addition to scrapping with no in-movie justification given. This isn't some ex-green-beret now living as a scrapper...I don't know, maybe that'll be the reveal in the last movie.

The thing is that there genuinely are things about Rey that aren't good. More importantly, there are things about the movie and the direction of the franchise that are extremely terrible.

Agreed. Man I wish one of the fan-theories had come true and Rey and Ren had switched sides at the end of TLJ, with Rey going Dark and Ren going Light.

But adding additional complaints only makes your case stronger if they are complaints that would stand on their own. If you pad your list out with things that are obviously bullshit, that looks like misogyny. It makes your position weaker and it makes us respect you less as a person.

So far, it looks like you and 8wave are just making sweeping generalizations and crying "misogyny" without actual effort involved to determine if your claim is true. How many questions have you asked, versus how many proclamations have you tried to hand down from on high. It's pretty disingenuous of you and frankly, irresponsible.

[Username17]

You yourself have even said she is badly characterized, so it seems even you agree that Rey has actual problems as a character. Whether her problems are "bad characterization in general" or "bad characterization in terms of abilities she displays", it seems like a mighty big leap to then go to accusations of misogyny or sexism.

No. As I said before, the bar you have to pass to not get (correctly) accused of sexism is incredibly low. You just didn't manage to go over it.

All you have to do is find something about the character that you would complain about if she were a dude instead of a chick, complain about it; and then not complain about things that you wouldn't complain about if she were a dude. Really. That's all you have to do. You didn't meet that incredibly low standard, and people are justifiably calling you out for sexist double standards.

Rey's apparent job on her bullshit sand world is to fly around on a speeder salvaging, refitting, and selling old tech. Any and all complaints that she is subsequently shown on screen piloting or interacting with old tech are prima facia absurd. There is no universe in which you or anyone else would hold such an obvious extension of a character's backstory to their displayed talents against a male protagonist.

Further, complaints that she is "too good" at fighting or piloting are ridiculous. They are completely without merit, because the movie explicitly tells you that Han and Poe are better pilots and that Kylo Ren is a better fighter. She isn't the best in her own movie at either of those skills, explicitly, so she by definition cannot be "too good." There is absolutely no way that you or anyone else would claim that it was a narrative problem for a male protagonist to be "possibly the third best pilot in the movie." You just wouldn't. Don't try to tell me you would, because that's fucking bullshit.

If you make meritless complaints against a female character, people are going to think that you are being triggered by her being a female. And they are probably right.

Now if you wanted to talk about actual problems with the entire Rey arc, here are a few:

• Rey's motivation for participation in the movie is that she wants to move the plot along. She is a Star Wars fangirl who wants to meet characters from Star Wars. That's fucking it. She is trying to meet Luke Skywalker because she is a fan of Luke Skywalker. That's taking "audience stand-in" to a level that is ridiculous. The audience wants to see Luke because they paid for a admission to a fucking Star Wars sequel and are fans of Luke, having characters advancing the plot because they share that motivation is beyond "meta-narrative" and into "basically fourth wall breaking."
• While Rey isn't the all-consuming badass that people keep claiming she is, she does have a completely adequate skill set to be a singular protagonist. This is fine. There are characters who are solo protagonists all the fucking time. The issue is that she is in an ensemble movie. There are characters like Finn, and BB-8, and Poe and shit, and they are all on the team but Rey doesn't actually need them for anything. Ever. Sure Poe is a better pilot and shit, but Rey is a good enough pilot that if there are ever any challenges that she personally needs to pass by piloting, she can do that. No part of her story particularly requires anyone else to actually do or contribute anything.
• At the same time, while Rey is perfectly adequate to do her thing, the A-plot in terms of advancement of the universe goes on pretty much without her. The Star Killer Base does its thing and blows up a star system off camera and the galactic civilization shrugs and doesn't seem to fucking do anything which is weird as hell, but also the problem is actually solved by having Han use previously established to be literally impossible levels of piloting skill to get inside the force field and then Chewbacca plants explosives that actually blow it up. Rey escapes from bondage on her own and has an inconclusive fight with a wounded Kylo and... that's it. She doesn't actually participate in the part where they blow up the Star Killer base and thus her presence or absence for the entire second half of the movie is basically just time filling.

So sure, talk about the fact that the movie is badly structured and that Rey's entire participation in the movie could just be a different movie that doesn't have any of the other heroes in it at all ever and vice versa. Or that her movie is just the director trolling you by having in-movie characters asking where Luke is right about the time you are starting to ask yourself the exact same question because Luke was promised in the fucking trailers and he isn't actually in the movie except as a stinger at the end.

But if you want to harp about her specific skill set being "too good," we are just going to roll our eyes and attribute your contribution to misogyny. Holding real women or female characters to unreasonable or double standards is what misogyny is. So it's not debatable or anything. Complaining about Rey's piloting or tech fixing abilities is by definition a misogynistic thing to do. I'm not defending the movie, I'm calling you out on behaving like an asshole.

-Username17

[MGuy]

Oh sure, lets be dishonest about what people are arguing about too. Nothing is off the table here. If we can imagine people are making arguments that they are not I'm sure we can all agree that everyone is a sexist asshole. Like how you can point at what Luke does and suggest he's the best pilot ever because he lucked his way to the end of a battle just to be saved by another character before getting his hand held by ghost mentor and look at what Rey does in an amazing display of aptitude and tell everybody that 'she' just so happens to be an average pilot. Clearly there's no sign of 'sexism' there.

[phlapjackage]

All you have to do is find something about the character that you would complain about if she were a dude instead of a chick, complain about it; and then not complain about things that you wouldn't complain about if she were a dude. Really. That's all you have to do. You didn't meet that incredibly low standard, and people are justifiably calling you out for sexist double standards.

Really? That's all I have to do? If only I had also complained about male characters also being too good at things without in-movie justifications...hmmm, I wonder how far back I have to go to find myself doing just this...

So sarcasm aside, I did this very thing you said I hadn't done, on this very page. By your "reasoning", I've met the bar. How you managed to miss this is either attributable to incompetence or a pathological need to be right.

Since you don't seem interested in a real discussion and are just this person who's like a Fox News viewer, ignoring any data that doesn't fit their worldview and calling everyone who disagrees names, I feel justified in going off on my own tangent not at all related to what you actually said.

While I was riding the subway home, I wiled (whiled?) away the time by trying to come up with reasons for your posting style.

• You're really invested in speaking like a politician (a background in politics?), where you ignore what other people say and just continue hammering home on your own message, even lying about what other people have said in an attempt to convince the audience of your viewpoint.
• You're using TGD as an outlet for your creative writing, either honing some skills or trying out other new ones
• Your ego needs stroking by always being right and you just can't accept any reality where you're wrong
• You're really busy and don't actually respect people enough to read what they wrote (you ain't got time for that shit)
• (no actual item 5, I really just think I have OCD about the number 5)

Maybe everyone else here figured out the deal about your posts a long time ago and I'm just slow on the uptake, idk.

[Username17]

Really? That's all I have to do? If only I had also complained about male characters also being too good at things without in-movie justifications...hmmm, I wonder how far back I have to go to find myself doing just this...

So sarcasm aside, I did this very thing you said I hadn't done, on this very page.

uh... no. That is bullshit shifting of goalposts. The claim is that Rey is too powerful without in-world justifications for:

• Being a good pilot who is explicitly not as good as at least two other pilots in the movie.
• Being a good melee combatant, who is explicitly not as good as at least one other melee combatant in the movie.

You have brought those facets up as examples of her being "too powerful." If you are saying that you would use those examples on a male protagonist, I am right now calling you a liar.

Yes, there are really characters who are too powerful without in-world justification for it. And I'm sure you've complained about some of them at some point. That's irrelevant for the charge of misogyny. The charge of misogyny is whether you would accept the evidence provided to levy the charges you have made against a character who was male. And obviously you would not. Because fucking obviously you don't complain about every single fucking character who is announced to be possibly the third or fourth best pilot in their movie or book. Because fucking obviously.

-Username17

[erik]

I guess I don't have any links handy atm, but I definitely remember lots of vitriole about child Anakin and how he could pilot and build/rebuild droids and pod racers. Are we confined to SW? I also complained loudly about that movie Kingdom of Heaven, the Orlando Bloom character (a blacksmith?) was way too good at other things too, like combat/architecture/agriculture.

I don't recall vitriol about Anakin being too competent. People were okay with a child being an excellent mechanic/builder and super-human pilot. The complained about parts were racist accents, a low stakes pointless plot, Jar Jar as comedic relief with exceedingly lucky combat prowess, and baby jesus Anakin accidentally, expertly destroying the trade federation. And midichlorians. Could you actually show a link of you complaining about Anakin being too competent, before TFA came out? Doesn't even have to be on this forum, cuz I'm pretty sure it ain't.

You've never talked about Orlando Bloom being too competent in Kingdom of Heaven here, and nor has anyone else, like, anywhere. If you had then I could've taken your offense at Rey more seriously at least as some sort of aversion to competence porn. Shit, I just tried googling for overly competent characters and came up essentially dry. with one citing Forest Gump which I found a bit tone deaf. With characters Bruce Wayne, Sherlock Holmes, and Tony Stark, it beggars belief that Rey is a bridge too far.

If your explanation is to throw up your hands and say "it's magic", that's a bad excuse and bad writing. Up to this point, most (all?) Force users are shown to have had SOME kind of training. Maybe it can happen, maybe she just wants it really hard, maybe the Force just does what the Force does...

We've been shown only a few force users. Barely enough to plot a line, definitely not enough to make a ruleset out of. And what we have been shown is that the Force can make you awesome at mundane things due to intuition/future sight, and that you need to just be informed of the force's existence and told to feel it, and if you're strong enough that's all the training you need to start using powers.

Anyway, here you don't have to watch the whole movie to see rey's vision scene. Turn on subtitles and you can read what was too quiet for me to easily make out at the theatre.

Young Rey: (Echoing) No!
Yoda: (Echoing) Its energy...
Yoda: ...surrounds us...
Man: (Echoing) No!
Yoda: ...and binds us...
(Man screams)
Obi-Wan: The Force will be...
Young Rey: (Echoing) No! Come back!
Unkar: Quiet, girl.
Young Rey: No!
Obi-Wan: Rey?
Obi-Wan: These are your first steps.

A vision plus a pep talk from Maz, that's as much training than Luke ever got from Obi-Wan, and without additional training was able to block blaster bolts, guide his torpedo shot, use force pull.

Now, would the story be better if Rey wasn't so competent? Probably yes. Is her character unbelievably competent, in the context of the Star Wars universe? No. Being in tune with the force can make you do everything awesomely, and she is given as much training as Luke before he starts using the force. Therefore no, it is not unbelievable that she can use the force or that it helps her be awesome.

[Chamomile]

Why the fuck is it "a flaw of the system" when White Wolf does it and "sacrosanct" when the Star Wars films do it?

It's not. It's just that act three is not the time to be overturning precedent. You establish your rules in act one. This is not the first time I've mentioned this. The problem with the scene is not that the precedent they are overturning was good, it's that the manner in which it was overturned was bad. It was JJ Abrams demonstrating that the Force was going to be capable of whatever he wanted it to be without any regard for consistency. This "make the current scene interesting and damn the long term narrative" approach to storytelling is terrible for Star Wars, which has always had a focus on long term storytelling (it hasn't necessarily always been good at it, but releasing movies in blocks of three has been its schtick since the beginning). The fact that there could've been a good scene of someone brand new to the Force learning mind trick as their first power doesn't change the fact that the scene we got was bad, and that it did not establish replacing the original depiction of the Force (which worked for only one person learning the Force and only that) with something actually better, but rather with "JJ Abrams will do whatever he thinks is cool right now and does not care about long term consequences."

You appear to be alone in all the world in having read Mind Trick as this ridiculously high level power that every single Jedi must have mastered X-wing powerlifting before they can even attempt. The vast majority of the audience reacted by just acknowledging "getting more powers makes you more hardcore".

This is also not the first time I've mentioned that Wookieepedia shares my reaction to mind trick - they find it notable enough that Rey performed it without training to note as much in their article on Mind Trick.

No, this is me asserting that it is categorically impossible to rule out Mind Trick as impossible unless it is explicitly demonstrated to be impossible on screen.

Okay, then you have ceased to have an argument at all, except for the one you just now introduced of "no one I have personally spoken to raised this exact objection and I will ignore your reference to other people noticing the same thing because shut up." Like, if your argument is that mind trick is somehow special in requiring explicit explanation or demonstration to be ruled out as a plausible first manifestation of the Force, then you would need to actually supply that argument, rather than just stating your conclusion and walking away. The closest thing you've come to is stating that it doesn't count because it's not a deus ex machina, but unless you're asserting that mind trick is allowed to violate all rules of narrative except deus ex machina, the specific rule that I happened to be egregiously violating in my example, that's a non-sequitir. There's more rules to making a good story than "no deus ex machina" and "don't violate the previously established rules of your setting" is one of them.

Having conceded that a setting's rules don't have to be established through explicit explanation or demonstration, it's not clear why you think this one is special, other than your personal incredulity and insistence that none of the people who noticed it count.

[MGuy]

All you have to do is find something about the character that you would complain about if she were a dude instead of a chick, complain about it; and then not complain about things that you wouldn't complain about if she were a dude. Really. That's all you have to do. You didn't meet that incredibly low standard, and people are justifiably calling you out for sexist double standards.

Since you don't seem interested in a real discussion and are just this person who's like a Fox News viewer, ignoring any data that doesn't fit their worldview and calling everyone who disagrees names, I feel justified in going off on my own tangent not at all related to what you actually said.

While I 'get' being frustrated and all at being gaslit by Frank continuously (and seemingly purposefully) missing your point I'd suggest just calling it quits. So Frank thinks sexism 'must' be involved if your argument doesn't meet some random standard he sets for you. Basically if you don't agree with 'him' about what's wrong with a female character you're being sexist. Starting to guess at what he must post like he does for though is a waste of time. I've no fucking idea why anyone posts like they do. Save for DSM who is on the record as saying its some kind of personal performance art. Frank always hunkers down whenever he is sure that he's right about something because the only counter arguments he will accept are ones he's thought of for himself. That's just the way it is. No need to try guessing at why, just deal with it.

[Occluded Sun]

Luke's managing to shoot down the Death Star is wildly unlikely, but it's a single action to fire those torpedoes down that one vent. Rey's somehow managing to hold her own in a lightsaber fight (when she's never had any training or practice) is also wildly unlikely, but it's an extensive and wide-ranging series of actions and events.

The implausibilities of those two things are in no way equal.

Anakin Skywalker was also implausibly good at things. Many things. Which is part of why he's a poor character, just as Rey is.

Gender has no connection with why these characters are bad, except that it seems very likely that Rey was written to be universally competent because she was female, and you can't be both realistically human and a "strong female character" in many people's minds.

[Omegonthesane]

No, this is me asserting that it is categorically impossible to rule out Mind Trick as impossible unless it is explicitly demonstrated to be impossible on screen.

Okay, then you have ceased to have an argument at all, except for the one you just now introduced of "no one I have personally spoken to raised this exact objection and I will ignore your reference to other people noticing the same thing because shut up." Like, if your argument is that mind trick is somehow special in requiring explicit explanation or demonstration to be ruled out as a plausible first manifestation of the Force, then you would need to actually supply that argument, rather than just stating your conclusion and walking away. The closest thing you've come to is stating that it doesn't count because it's not a deus ex machina, but unless you're asserting that mind trick is allowed to violate all rules of narrative except deus ex machina, the specific rule that I happened to be egregiously violating in my example, that's a non-sequitir. There's more rules to making a good story than "no deus ex machina" and "don't violate the previously established rules of your setting" is one of them.

Having conceded that a setting's rules don't have to be established through explicit explanation or demonstration, it's not clear why you think this one is special, other than your personal incredulity and insistence that none of the people who noticed it count.

Your claim appears to be that Star Wars adequately establishes that literally no entry level Force user, ever, anywhere in the entire universe, no matter what can Mind Trick. This is false.

Mind Trick is not powerful enough that you can claim it's implicitly demonstrated by way of no entry level Force user before Rey having ever attempted it. Therefore to be established as a power that is level gated, Mind Trick must be shown, on screen to be unusable by low level Force users. That - and nothing less - is what it would take to establish the setting rule that Mind Trick is level gated, because Mind Trick simply is not powerful enough to draw implicit conclusions from what kind of Force users never attempt it.

Mind Trick has a specific property that makes it have to actually be explained explicitly as not being an entry level power. That specific property is "not being more objectively powerful and plot destabilising than other things that are explicitly entry level powers". This property is shared by Force Telekinesis and by Force Super Senses and by the more boring buff effects from Jedi Knight Jedi Academy. You simply cannot draw sweeping conclusions about who can use a cantrip based on who deigns to use a cantrip, because it's not an impressive effect, it's a god damn cantrip.

Luke's managing to shoot down the Death Star is wildly unlikely, but it's a single action to fire those torpedoes down that one vent. Rey's somehow managing to hold her own in a lightsaber fight (when she's never had any training or practice) is also wildly unlikely, but it's an extensive and wide-ranging series of actions and events.

Oh wow, Rey was able to hold her own in a 2 vs 1 lightsaber fight where the 1 was physically wounded before the fight started and also dealing with the emotional fallout from just having murdered his own father. And who is later shown to be far better than her in combat when they murder his master's bodyguards together.

[phlapjackage]

Yes, there are really characters who are too powerful without in-world justification for it.

I'm not sure what you keep nattering on about, according to your own (arbitrary) goalposts, I've met the bar of showing that there are male characters I'm willing to complain about for the same reasons I'm complaining about Rey. So my criticisms are not limited to female characters, although they tend to be limited to Rey in a discussion about Rey, strange that...

Save for DSM who is on the record as saying its some kind of personal performance art.

Great, I can add that to the list and fill in that item 5 that's just a placeholder now.

I don't recall vitriol about Anakin being too competent. People were okay with a child being an excellent mechanic/builder and super-human pilot. The complained about parts were racist accents, a low stakes pointless plot, Jar Jar as comedic relief with exceedingly lucky combat prowess, and baby jesus Anakin accidentally, expertly destroying the trade federation. And midichlorians. Could you actually show a link of you complaining about Anakin being too competent, before TFA came out? Doesn't even have to be on this forum, cuz I'm pretty sure it ain't.

I'll respond here even though I've got no links at hand, I don't even know if I'd find anything if I did search. So I guess that makes my position weaker. But for my part, I don't see the "vitriol" angle. I'm not frothing at the mouth here, I just asked an innocent (I thought) question for more discussion. I'm more likely to go crazy about the Holdo maneuver or midichlorians or the racist accents or Jar Jar (man I wish Darth Jar Jar had happened).

You've never talked about Orlando Bloom being too competent in Kingdom of Heaven here, and nor has anyone else, like, anywhere. If you had then I could've taken your offense at Rey more seriously at least as some sort of aversion to competence porn. Shit, I just tried googling for overly competent characters and came up essentially dry. with one citing Forest Gump which I found a bit tone deaf. With characters Bruce Wayne, Sherlock Holmes, and Tony Stark, it beggars belief that Rey is a bridge too far.

I mean, I don't talk alot on this board or any board in general. I definitely wasn't going to randomly bring up KoH in this Rey discussion, but since we're now on it, I've walked out of like 5 movies in my life: 1 was KoH, and the other 4 I can't think of but surely I've walked out of other movies? And it was purely for how bullshit I thought OB's character was, a blacksmith who then magically is also an expert swordsman/siege engineer/architect/agriculturist/courtly manners person. I could be misremembering things about the movie, it was awhile ago and I walked out, so...

And yeah, I'm onboard with the idea of other characters having more or less similar characterization problems. Sherlock Holmes, definitely, I can't stand him. Dude is unbelievably competent in many different areas. Should I start complaining about book characters I can't stand either? (but only male characters are ok, right?) Bruce Wayne, well, he sort of has that training montage thing, so it's slightly less problematic to me, but yeah he's "on the spectrum". And on and on...this starts to really look like a strong case of whataboutism. If you feel strongly that these other characters have similar problems, maybe you can start a thread about them and I'll be glad to chime in.

[erik]

Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply vitriol on your part phlap just there totes was vitriol following phantom menace and none of it that I recall was about Anakin being too good of a pilot or mechanic. I’d say there was so much to hate about the movie that hate for his competence coulda been lost in the shuffle, but there’s no such thing as running out of hate. I’m pretty sure people were just okay with Jedi child being a super pilot techie.

My point for Batman and Sherlock are that they are absurdly overly competent and a lot of people are just fine with that. If that rustles your jimmies as much or more than Rey then I reckon that makes you more sensitive to over competence and I get where you’re coming from.

I did forum searches trying to find where you’d complained about the aforementioned other characters before and came up empty but if you say you walked out on KoH for that reason then I believe you and accept that as sufficient animus against overly competent characters.

I’m not super invested into Rey being plausible in SW setting. I just think that the native magic system for good or ill is completely capable of making implausibly competent characters. That and I don’t think swinging sabers or shooting blasters are exceptional especially if the character is shown able to handle their self in a fight. So the only thing I feel Rey did that was unexpectedly competent at was piloting, but she said she could pilot, and as Frank said she is at best the third best pilot we see out of the 3 named pilots in the movie. We don’t have her full backstory and if a character says they can do something then I tend to accept that as background until proven otherwise.

[Maj]

OK. I'm on a tangent here because this is irking me no end.

Dude is unbelievably competent in many different areas.

Philosophically speaking, what is wrong with a competent character? Personally, I find characters only competent in one thing to be flat and unrealistic (Dude, do you even hobby, Bro?) I know of only a single living person who is so stupidly one dimensional that she is a waste of space. The phrase Renaissance Man describes someone who is highly competent in lots of things - Rene Descartes, for example, was a mercenary, a lawyer, a scientist, a mathematician, and a philosopher.

So I'm going out on a limb and asking... Could it be that it's not the competency of the characters that's the annoying part, but rather the fact that the story only gives the character problems they're good at, leaving their core untouched (ie: there's no hero's journey)?

[MGuy]

OK. I'm on a tangent here because this is irking me no end.

Dude is unbelievably competent in many different areas.

Philosophically speaking, what is wrong with a competent character? Personally, I find characters only competent in one thing to be flat and unrealistic (Dude, do you even hobby, Bro?) I know of only a single living person who is so stupidly one dimensional that she is a waste of space. The phrase Renaissance Man describes someone who is highly competent in lots of things - Rene Descartes, for example, was a mercenary, a lawyer, a scientist, a mathematician, and a philosopher.

So I'm going out on a limb and asking... Could it be that it's not the competency of the characters that's the annoying part, but rather the fact that the story only gives the character problems they're good at, leaving their core untouched (ie: there's no hero's journey)?

Personally I'm fine with over competent characters. I've straight up said that I don't think Rey is the problem with the movie several times in this thread. Hell, talking about movies that were ruined by such a thing, I heavily criticized Eragon because of the main character becoming unreasonably competent in the movie. Not here mind, as it has never come up but the only reason I went to see the movie at all was because a friend of mine wanted to go see it (I'd never read or heard of the books prior). I guess that means I hate men or whatever. As far as other media goes I have different opinions about how I feel about a character's competence as ultimately whether it bothers me or not really depends on the context. Rey being pretty damn competent at everything she does was noticeable but not offensive to me. Luke wasn't all that competent at anything outside of piloting a vehicle he's never piloted before and Anakin was a kid in his first outing. So none of the main star wars protagonists were good or interesting in the first movie they show up in so, to me there isn't anything particularly wrong with Rey also being an uninteresting character because that's par for the Star Wars course.

[phlapjackage]

My point for Batman and Sherlock are that they are absurdly overly competent and a lot of people are just fine with that. If that rustles your jimmies as much or more than Rey then I reckon that makes you more sensitive to over competence and I get where you’re coming from.

Yeah, I'm perfectly comfortable with saying that for some reason, I have problems with overly-competent-with-no-effort characters.

We don’t have her full backstory and if a character says they can do something then I tend to accept that as background until proven otherwise.

True, the third movie could really turn things on their head. I'll be willing to retract my objections to Rey if we get a really good backstory...I'm not holding my breath though.

Anyway, here you don't have to watch the whole movie to see rey's vision scene. Turn on subtitles and you can read what was too quiet for me to easily make out at the theatre.

And then there's this, which I definitely missed (in your previous post and in the movie). I downloaded it last night, I'll watch it again in full and try to have an open mind.

Philosophically speaking, what is wrong with a competent character? Personally, I find characters only competent in one thing to be flat and unrealistic (Dude, do you even hobby, Bro?) I know of only a single living person who is so stupidly one dimensional that she is a waste of space. The phrase Renaissance Man describes someone who is highly competent in lots of things - Rene Descartes, for example, was a mercenary, a lawyer, a scientist, a mathematician, and a philosopher.

I don't think it's as simple as "overly competent", it's with no justification given for the competence. And not just competent, but continually successful with no real failures or setbacks.

So I'm going out on a limb and asking... Could it be that it's not the competency of the characters that's the annoying part, but rather the fact that the story only gives the character problems they're good at, leaving their core untouched (ie: there's no hero's journey)?

Yeah this is a huge part of it I think, great point. When SH says "oh, I know what kind of obscure place this tiny bit of dirt comes from just by simple observation", it's just an eye-rolling moment. OF COURSE he knows this. Where's the failure where SH looks at something and says "....you know what? I have no fucking idea".

[angelfromanotherpin]

Where's the failure where SH looks at something and says "....you know what? I have no fucking idea".

SHERLOCK HOLMES—his limits.

1. Knowledge of Literature.—Nil.
2. Philosophy.—Nil.
3. Astronomy.—Nil.
4. Politics.—Feeble.

[phlapjackage]

SHERLOCK HOLMES—his limits.

1. Knowledge of Literature.—Nil.
2. Philosophy.—Nil.
3. Astronomy.—Nil.
4. Politics.—Feeble.

Do those limits ever meaningfully affect him?

[angelfromanotherpin]

Do those limits ever meaningfully affect him?

It depends what you mean by meaningful. For instance, I'd say it contributes significantly to Holmes' inability to participate in polite society, which is a perennial character issue. That social isolation then exacerbates his drug problem. And so on.

But his areas of ignorance specifically don't impede him in solving crimes. The whole point of the list (of which my quote is just an excerpt) is that he has carefully tailored his knowledge to be a crime-solving machine and discarded everything else. e.g. He is shockingly ignorant of philosophy, but in his fictional world there are no ideological motives, only greed and passion.

Still, even without some Riddler-type confounding him with a basic solar system quiz, Holmes doesn't always succeed. He's been too slow, and even straight wrong. Just not often.

[Occluded Sun]

Look, just inagine Rey was male. A male Rey would be an even worse character. Unless he was gay and Ren, too.

I was going to argue that Rey's being female had a lot to do with why she was given so many features that made her a poor character. And there's something to that line of thinking. But it occurred to me that Anakin has many of the same problems, so gender alone doesn't make for a convincing argument.

Perhaps the fact that Anakin is such a young child when introduced is the key factor.