On the Mary Sue-ism of Rey (Split off by (several) requests)

[deaddmwalking]

Although I have restated Chamomile's argument correctly several times, I thought it might be entertaining to do so again.

I still object to the speed with which Rey picked up Force tricks and was able to turn a Sith apprentice's mind tricks back on him despite no formal training. Previously, the only people seen mind tricking anyone were fully trained Jedi Knights.

This statement implies that Rey either learned Mind Trick 'faster' than other people or that Mind Trick is reserved for fully trained Jedi (or both). This argument can be approached in two ways. One can either show that Rey did not learn Mind Trick faster than other people or show that some people using Mind Trick were not fully trained Jedi Knights.

Later, Chamomile expands on this view, which I will refer to as a narrative objection to the depiction of Rey's use of Mind Trick.

Just because something is magic and hypothetically could've established different rules for itself doesn't mean it doesn't have to follow the rules it actually does establish for itself, including the implicit rules formed by what the characters don't do, even when it would be helpful.

This particular thread of argument can be rebutted in multiple ways.

Firstly, it can be shown that the 'rules' were not established at all. This has in several cases been referred to as 'absence of evidence does not imply evidence of absence'. Any reference to 'small sample size' is relevant, as is the question of how many white swans you can see in a row to prove that black swans don't exist. The answer, of course, is there is no number that can prove something doesn't exist, because a single example where it does exist is sufficient to prove it does. If I captured a yeti and brought it back to be studied by scientists, Chamomile would object that it is a violation of precedent where multiple similar expeditions failed. It would be 'awfully convenient' if I succeeded when the 'rules' say I should not.

What is particularly curious about Chamomile's defense is that he also reminds us that Star Wars is not a 'real thing', but relies more heavily on 'narrative structure' to defend his case.

[quote="Chamomile]
Powers that resolve conflicts in the third act must be established in the first. That's how fiction works, and trying to examine the Star Wars universe as a real thing that can be studied and not a work of fiction is very obviously lunacy. [/quote]

Since it is NOT a real thing, and the rules will be modified based on additional information provided in the narrative, it becomes a question of WHETHER the change was telegraphed sufficiently. This is taking me dangerously off the topic of how and whether The Force 'follows the rules that it established for itself'. Going back to that subject...

I said above that one could establish that 'the rules weren't established at all'. However, proving that something doesn't exist is impossible - providing an example that shows otherwise refutes the argument. Chamomile insists that 'the rules' are established but refuses to show us how. While 'humans love patterns', a single data point allows you to chart whatever graph you want. This is where references to 'all Sandtroopers walk in single file - at least the one I saw did' comes from. Since we understand that we have a natural bias to see patterns that don't exist, we can debate whether we have been led to believe that a pattern was 'real'.

Chamomile offers a 'consensus view' that 'audiences' believe that Mind Trick is power only used by veritable masters of the Jedi arts.

The problem here is that there is clearly not a consensus view. A number of people from the 'audience' have made it clear that they never had the impression that ANYONE implied that Mind Tricks were reserved for powerful users of the Force. IN FACT, several people have argued for a contrary position. The way that Obi-Wan uses the power at Mos Eisley and, in the prequels when offered Death Sticks, show it to be a useful but minor power. Compare the effort he puts into it with, say, Luke using the Force to lift his X-Wing.

But if it is not an appeal to the consensus view, there is a nestled appeal to an implicit narrative authority. Who says that you can't use something in the 3rd act that wasn't introduced in the 1st act? Deus Ex Machina is literally a literary trope. Although I like 'Chekov's Gun' and think that is indicative of good writing, we know that there are badly written screenplays.

There are any number of events that COULD happen that there is no precedent for. In order to object to THIS event, we have to identify how it contradicts established precedent.

So the next way to respond to these objections of Chamomile is to make an 'Argument by Analogy'. If only we can identify a situation where fans argue that precedent was broken and compare.

Oh wait, we already did! The Holdo Maneuver actually does violate precedent. We have established that other characters:

- had the ability
- had the desire
- did not make a relativistic kill vehicle

In Rey's case, we have only Leia as an example of a person 'similarly strong with the force' that did not have 'explicit training'. In order to establish that precedent was violated, we would need to find a situation where Leia had the desire but was unable to do it. Unfortunately, we have SEVERAL EXAMPLES of trained Jedi FAILING to use Mind Trick. So even if Leia failed, we'd have to ALSO ESTABLISH that the person she attempted the power on had a 'weak mind'. The only case that I think could POTENTIALLY be her trying to use the influence of the force would be in the defense of Alderan. However, there is nothing to indicate that Grand Moff Tarkin has a weak mind.

So there are trained Jedi that use Mind Trick. Does it establish a precedent that only trained Jedi can use Mind Trick?

Since we didn't find an example of someone of similar natural ability with the desire and opportunity to use it, the next way to prove precedent is to find someone that TRIED TO USE IT, but failed because they lacked the training.

Young Anakin could have potentially done this. If young Obi-Wan tried and failed, it would be a slam dunk because we would learn that he uses it when he is trained, but not before. So for precedent to be established in this case, we simply need to show that someone that used the Mind Trick with training couldn't use it without training. I'm waiting for an example.

So, effectively, the argument MUST BE that Rey should not have been able to use Mind Trick because prior movies established that training is required.

That argument is unfounded and rebutted in a number of ways. I've laid out several of the more obvious ones. And it's fine - Chamomile can say I haven't identified his argument even though I've quoted him making it, because his real argument is clearly something so clever and awesome it cannot be expressed in words or refuted in any way.

But hey, I don't argue with people on the internet to change their minds, anyway. I mostly just assume people are making claims they don't believe to troll me. Because I have trouble imagining a world where people can learn proper grammar and establish a superior vocabulary and still be such idiots.

[Chamomile]

No I didn't. As others have said, "Mary Sue" has to mean something more than just "is poorly characterized" this is true because words have meaning.

You need to learn how to read:

Quote any of my posts where I ever called Rey a Mary Sue. I'll give you a hint: You can't, because they don't exist, although you can find a post earlier in this thread where I already explicitly declared that this was not part of my position.

The three possible situations are:

1) people aren't familiar enough with the material for precedent to exist.
2) people are already familiar enough with the material that they have whiplash from all the massive retcons, in which case Rey spontaneously manifesting mind trick is an extremely minor violation that doesn't matter.
3) people are familiar with the material and have already accumulated such a massive katamari of mind-caulk that it's physically not possible to violate precedent anymore.

Like, you really, really need to learn to read:

You just declared that since this series has ever had precedent overturned anywhere in the past, that means that now all audience expectations are forever obliterated, begging the question of whether or not audience expectations immediately and irrevocably explode upon contact with a single bad retcon. They do not. Indeed, you have already conceded this. Your own list of things that people noticed were bad about the prequels includes things that happened in Revenge of the Sith, after the midichlorians debacle, and which certainly did not receive as much attention as the midichlorians line, and yet people still noticed them and did not like them. You have personally conceded that precedent being violated has not prevented audiences from noticing further violations of precedent. People continue to notice and care about this kind of thing even after it becomes predictable.

You conceded that people continued to care about violations of precedent after one had already happened in the same breath as you tried to claim that midichlorians rendered all people permanently unable to care about future violations of precedent.

You had two points to make here and both of them were countered by the post you were responding to. Not just by things I had said previously in this thread, but by things that were actually in the specific post you were responding to. One of them was again you attempting to allege a position to me that I had explicitly not taken. You seem really aggravated when I demand that people demonstrate they understand what my argument is before I will engage with them, but this thing where you blatantly ignore the things I've written to attack a strawman is exactly the behavior that leads to that. If you aren't going to communicate with me, then I'm not going to talk to the wall while you pretend to have a conversation with me. And don't bitch to me about what "game" I'm playing, because I'm the one proving the validity of my accusations with quotes and you are the one who has repeatedly refused to do so.

[phlapjackage]

Stop pretending you're immune to implicit bias.

Yeah...maybe first you can stop pretending that because someone doesn't like a character that happens to be female, that it's misogyny. Maybe first you could have asked a few questions about how I or others feel about other women characters first before making these claims. Maybe first you could stop pretending that you're immune to the obvious displacement and projection signs you're exhibiting...

This is the classic double bind I'm talking about. You're mad about Rey being better than Luke

Wrong - at least for me, I'm talking about Luke because a) others brought him up, b) he's another example of a Force-using character in these movies, and c) his characterization is much better. "Being better than Luke" has nothing to do with it. "Being really good at most things with no in-movie reason given" is the thing.

You ask this like you've caught me in a sticky situation. But I've already said Rey in TFA is a bad characterization.

So how is Rey=bad characterization not misogynist ? How can you not like a woman character who is good at things? Why do you hate women?

For example: Rey isn't actually a fantastic pilot. Her sand skimmer riding and Millenium Falcon piloting both look awesome, but that's just because "awesome things happen on screen" is a given for a fantasy movie about space wizards.

Yeah, some of the stuff she does is pretty awesome, especially for someone with no in-movie reason given for why she can do all of these things

Contrast this to when Poe basically just flies an X-wing in the open sky while shooting stuff and Finn raves about "Now THAT'S a pilot." Which means that even though we, objectively, can see that Rey's piloting is much better than Poe's, Poe is still the better in-universe pilot.

Never debated whether Rey was a MS because she had to be the best...just that she was unreasonably good at so many things she put her hand to, many things which had previously been shown to require some kind of study or training.

[erik]

"Being really good at most things with no in-movie reason given" is the thing.

I cannot recall having heard this complaint of a new character before TFA. Isn't that how fucking new characters often get their abilities explained in movies, by doing something hard? Sometimes characters get backstories explained and other times they just do something and you're like, oh, they're a badass.

And what in movie reason do you need for being good at the force? It's fucking magic with poorly defined rules; and it's magic that makes you awesome at potentially almost anything. If there was ever a setting where people don't need to explain why they are awesome, Star Wars is it.

Maybe sand planets are great for midichlorians.

Hrmmmm.

[Whipstitch]

My point isn't that Luke and Annakin are Mary Sues, but that Luke and Annakin (especially Annakin) are the bar you must surmount before you can call anyone else in the Star Wars universe a Mary Sue.

In fairness, I think the presentation differences and order of events really do matter in this case. Personally, my enjoyment of Star Wars can be fairly accurately graphed by noting that the less stupid details I knew about Anakin's supposed potential the happier I was with the films. The prophecies and adolescent angst is balls out moronic but we did not know that was coming in 1980 when Vader was marching around being a flat out villain. Being less Mary Sue-ish than the worst bits of the prequels isn't a great accomplishment because when the prequels came out I ended up so disappointed I started hooting on the internet like a scalded ape. In that sense I don't think there's a real Anakin-Rey double standard given that the former definitely has his share of detractors.

Luke, on the other hand, is a more interesting argument and I think you could make a fair case that in many ways Rey takes a lot of shit primarily because the films have a "bigger and better" paint-by-numbers quality to them. It's incredibly tempting to hold her character accountable to shit that we merely presume is going to happen.

[deaddmwalking]

On the subject of 'abilities out of nowhere', my work colleague pointed out the following:

No matter how ancient the Jedi Order is, there must have been a time where it did not exist. Before there was training, there were Force Sensitive characters with the potential to become Jedi. I wasn't bothered by Rey exhibiting this power under stress because I figured that was how it must have happened before the Jedi were an established order.

Which, when he puts it that way, I fully agree with. If someone had to be the first wizard, someone had to figure out how to do that spell without being trained by someone who already knew.

[Omegonthesane]

At most, you could say it demonstrates that having all of Luke's powers is sufficient to call yourself a Knight. It does nothing to establish that specific powers are level gated, only to show that having the whole suite is.

...
Which leaves only the possibility that the Force follows no patterns whatsoever, that people get powers in a totally random order completely disconnected from any kind of natural predilection or hierarchy of difficulty. That the Force has no rules, no restraints, that it does whatever the plot needs it to do right now or whatever would look cool. This is obviously the worst of all possibilities, and it's the possibility that JJ Abrams is going with, and the scene in which he establishes that is bad for establishing that.

...
Have you played Vampire the Masquerade? Did you never look at, say, Serpentis and think "this power progression doesn't have any logical reason to be in that order, the only thing this grab bag has in common is sneks"? Did you ever look at Presence and think "gosh, it's a little strange that I HAVE to be able to use magic to seduce people before I can use magic to make people too scared to defy me to my face, and I HAVE to be able to use magic to scare people off before I can use magic to seduce people"? Or like half the Thaumaturgy paths.

Assuming that mastery of one magic power is a prerequisite for novice usage of a completely different magic power, based on a sample size of "father, son, and the man who taught both the father and the son", having yourself conceded that literally every part of the pre-Disney EU obviously went with "the Force can be learned in basically whatever order" because that's fucking obviously the most interesting way to do it when there are more than two force users of a similar level at a time, is a bit strange to say the least.

Rey is the protagonist of a Star Wars film who came from a desert backwater and has no real reason to be drawn into events other than having been chosen by the Force, so is very obviously meant to be read as having the potential to develop force powers.

...your assertion that it is categorically impossible for the Force to be reasonably expected to obey the rules of good narrative is obviously wrong, because it is very easy to come up with extremely egregious violations of narrative that we would not accept from the Force regardless of whether it has ever been explicitly stated that the Force cannot do that.

I never asserted that. You stated that the Rey scene was the Force violating the rules of good narrative by setting up that the Force doesn't require you to learn telekinesis before learning mind trick, I challenged that by pointing out that Rey's power growth was not large enough to be adequately explained by a hack needing to write their way out of a hole, so should instead be taken as a deliberate world building point.

[Dean]

No matter how ancient the Jedi Order is, there must have been a time where it did not exist. Before there was training, there were Force Sensitive characters with the potential to become Jedi. I wasn't bothered by Rey exhibiting this power under stress because I figured that was how it must have happened before the Jedi were an established order. .

On our planet there was a time before the M16 existed and a time after, that does not causally imply that at some point the M16 must have sprung into existence and that's why Jon Snow suddenly taking an M16 out and killing everyone would be a perfectly sensible choice in GoT.

Something existing does not imply it sprang into existence suddenly. The idea that light side powers spring into existence when under great emotional duress is something TFA posits that goes against the original films whole mythos. People really dislike the scene where she suddenly mind tricks but the one that bothered me is when Rey, in the middle of a lightsaber fight with Kylo, closes her eyes for a minute while they're locking swords and whispers "The Force" then starts beating her sword onto his with sudden brutal power and battle crying because she's in touch with the force now. That's literally the exact opposite of the entire mythos concept of the force. We're told "War does not make one great", to clear your mind of emotions, etc etc etc. The entire force concept of the original films, as much as it is spelled out, is that being calm and focused is good and emotional and angry is bad. We see Luke give into anger a couple times but then he does things like look at himself and throw down his sword because that's bad. The mythos is that screaming in anger and beating your sword onto someone as you carve them up is NOT GOOD. When your movie's finale is literally exactly someone carving someone up while screaming at them while triumphant music is swelling in upwardly angled noble shots it's demonstrating that the person behind this doesn't understand what they're supposed to be doing.

Force powers suddenly manifesting isn't a necessary conclusion, it's perfectly reasonable given both logic and Luke's training scene that they were learned and taught slowly rather than manifested suddenly. And the supposition that getting real pissed and scared and developing new magic powers is a good thing is actually directly opposed to the only things we're told about the Force in the original films.

[Username17]

Force powers suddenly manifesting isn't a necessary conclusion, it's perfectly reasonable given both logic and Luke's training scene that they were learned and taught slowly rather than manifested suddenly.

Do you remember the Trench scene? Like, at all?

Luke is going to use his targeting computer, and then a Force ghost sends him brain mail that he should "use the Force" and "let go" and he decides to try that and turns off his targeting computer. Like, Luke's Death Star attack scene not only has him develop a new Force power in the middle of a stressful action scene, he develops a Force power that neither he nor the audience knew existed and immediately changes tactics accordingly. That is a thing that happens.

I'm not going to defend the Kylo Ren fight. Honestly, I'm not going to defend Kylo Ren at all, because he's a terrible character and a terrible villain. But the Mind Trick scene just isn't very interesting. It's just a rehash of the Wampa cave scene with Luke only the developed cantrip is Mind Trick instead of Force Push. People who are getting their underwear in knots over it are just fucking wrong.

And yes, the sexism angle is a big fucking deal. It's the elephant in the room. Kylo Ren is a fucking horrible villain who is literally a petulant child who is a Vader cosplayer. His villainy is stupid and his competence is questionable and I just genuinely don't understand why anyone on team evil feels like taking orders from him. Darth Maul doesn't have any fucking dialogue and he's still a better Star Wars villain than Kylo Ren. Rey gets shat on for things that aren't even problems, and people bitching about the movie just gloss over completely real things like how the main villain is an actual joke.

It's just extremely obvious that we wouldn't even be having this conversation if a male protagonist spontaneously developed a Force power in the third act. Because Luke actually does that in A New Hope and none of you fuckers are the slightest bit concerned. The fact that people are tearing their testicle hairs out over Rey is very obviously only happening because she is a girl. If it wasn't for sexism, we'd be talking about actual structural problems the movie actually has - of which there are many. For fuck's sake, there is an actual plot point of characters seeing a space based weapon firing from one star system they are not in to attack another star system that they are also not in. That's a motherfucking ginormous plot hole, but instead we are having people trying to psyche themselves up to convince themselves that it's somehow bad storytelling for a Force sensitive aspiring Jedi to use a Force power in a moment of need. Because mysogyny. That's the only explaination. We absolutely obviously would not be disecting that scene at all if people weren't holding female protagonists to very different standards from male protagonists.

And if you're doing that, you need to stop. Go home and rethink your life. If girls doing stuff bothers you when boys doing the same stuff doesn't bother you, you have a problem. And you should think about that very carefully and try to work on fixing that part of you that is broken.

-Username17

[Omegonthesane]

To be fair, Kylo Ren being a laughably pathetic villain who people only take orders from because he's genuinely dangerous in person has been brought up as part of claiming Rey has more plot favouritism than Luke did - instead of having to defeat a stoic and dignified Force master who exudes authority and self control instead of relying on intimidation she gets to fight a wannabe with literally no self control who ultimately murders his own evil master not so much to become the new Supreme Leader as because he wants her.

I'd even go so far as to say that a better story than the Disney Trilogy could have been told where a huge plot point was the villain being a petulant child who ultimately has no real loyalty to Team Evil and is feared instead of respected. It's pretty clear that Ren being an actual joke was a deliberate choice that they thought would be interesting, they just didn't quite pull it off.

[Kaelik]

http://www.indiewire.com/2018/06/george ... 201974276/

I think "the villain is a dumb piece of garbage who is only obeyed because he can personally kill you and you aren't sure if anyone else would join you on your mutiny or sell you out because you live in fascism"

Is a perfectly decent villain concept.

[Chamomile]

Have you played Vampire the Masquerade? Did you never look at, say, Serpentis and think "this power progression doesn't have any logical reason to be in that order, the only thing this grab bag has in common is sneks"? Did you ever look at Presence and think "gosh, it's a little strange that I HAVE to be able to use magic to seduce people before I can use magic to make people too scared to defy me to my face, and I HAVE to be able to use magic to scare people off before I can use magic to seduce people"? Or like half the Thaumaturgy paths.

Yes? And that's bad. It is a flaw of the system. That being a flaw of the system is something I'd thought was uncontroversial here.

Assuming that mastery of one magic power is a prerequisite for novice usage of a completely different magic power, based on a sample size of "father, son, and the man who taught both the father and the son",

Gonna stop you right there, because again: Star Wars is not real. Nothing that you ever say about sample size will ever matter, because it is uncontroversially and obviously true that movies run on precedents, not sample sizes, because they are fiction whose worth is measured in audience reaction, not observations of reality whose worth is measured in matching reality. Since you have no further argument except to assert - baselessly and contrary to the most basic principles of foreshadowing - that fiction should be treated like a real thing, your actual job here is to justify that assertion. Like, you pull out the concession that EU writers/devs converge on a certain way of doing things because it is obviously superior for works with multiple people learning the Force all at the same time and act like that's the real crux of the disagreement, but no, the crux of the disagreement is that you think works of fiction can be scientifically investigated and subsequently held to scientific standards. As I've pointed out before, for the vast majority of works of fiction this would mean that literally anything can happen, because the entirety of the setting material ever made for any given setting isn't enough to draw statistically significant sample sizes for anything. And yet, it is obviously true that the narrative rules of deus ex machina continue to apply.

I never asserted that.

Yes, you did, right here:

The only thing that would establish that Mind Trick is level gated to Knights is having a Not-A-Knight try to use Mind Trick and fail in circumstances where a Knight would succeed.

This is you asserting that it is categorically impossible to rule out any usage of the Force as impossible unless it is explicitly demonstrated to be impossible onscreen (or, in EightWave's even stupider version, when a qualified expert in-universe info-dumps that information). You didn't say anything about the writer painting themselves into a corner until after that.

It is obviously true that it is possible to set precedents without anything nearly this explicit, as is evidenced by the fact that fleet-destroying Force powers busted out in the third act is something you are (seemingly) capable of recognizing as deus ex machina without needing to have that previously explained or demonstrated explicitly. Thus, your assertion that explicit demonstration or explanation is required to establish something is clearly false. Your complaints that the fleet-annihilating power don't map perfectly to Rey's scene are missing the point. They only need to have one thing in common: They are both justified according to your previous assertion, but you aren't even trying to defend the fleet-destroying example (because it is an extreme example that is obviously wrong), which means your previous assertion is invalid.

It's just extremely obvious that we wouldn't even be having this conversation if a male protagonist spontaneously developed a Force power in the third act.

So now you've gone from "declare myself correct without presenting any argument at all" to "also accuse opponents of sexism." Because apparently we're all Kylo Ren fans?

Meanwhile, you have:

-Defended your position using exclusively decanonized media, then later asserted that the IP holder's right to decide what does and doesn't count as canon is inviolate.
-Made an accusation of goalpost shifting based on, so far as I can tell, your having missed a line in the first post and being too lazy to go back and check.
-Asserted that a usage of the Force appeared in both a script and a novel and was included by the people who made a movie, which turned out to have been included only in the novel by a guy who may have, at best, have had occasional conversations with people who worked on the movie, conversations which even if they did happen would not have covered the detail you insisted was straight from the creators' mouths.
-Asserted that obscure EU content can reasonably be treated as valid foreshadowing for main line films and consistently refused to explain why you thought this bizarre and obviously wrong position was justified.
-Asserted that fictional universes should be judged according to the scientific standards used to measure real phenomena, and refused to clarify why you think this is the case in defiance of such basic principles of the craft as foreshadowing and Chekhov's gun.

You say that misogyny is the "only possible reason" why someone could be having this conversation, but have you considered the possibility that maybe it's because 100% of your assertions are either based on things which are easily verified to be false or not based on anything at all, just constantly asserted over and over again with ever more desperate attempts at internet intimidation appended? Because that second one fits in pretty well with your long established pattern of egomaniacal refusal to back down from any position no matter how obviously wrong (for example: I asked you five times to clarify whether you stood by your obviously false accusations of golapost shifting, you never once responded to that challenge despite continuing to respond to me in general), but the first one is a pretty weird accusation to throw at someone who has so far used the term "Mary Sue" exclusively to refer to male characters.

[Omegonthesane]

Have you played Vampire the Masquerade? Did you never look at, say, Serpentis and think "this power progression doesn't have any logical reason to be in that order, the only thing this grab bag has in common is sneks"? Did you ever look at Presence and think "gosh, it's a little strange that I HAVE to be able to use magic to seduce people before I can use magic to make people too scared to defy me to my face, and I HAVE to be able to use magic to scare people off before I can use magic to seduce people"? Or like half the Thaumaturgy paths.

Yes? And that's bad. It is a flaw of the system. That being a flaw of the system is something I'd thought was uncontroversial here.

Why the fuck is it "a flaw of the system" when White Wolf does it and "sacrosanct" when the Star Wars films do it?

because they are fiction whose worth is measured in audience reaction

You appear to be alone in all the world in having read Mind Trick as this ridiculously high level power that every single Jedi must have mastered X-wing powerlifting before they can even attempt. The vast majority of the audience reacted by just acknowledging "getting more powers makes you more hardcore".

but no, the crux of the disagreement is that you think works of fiction can be scientifically investigated and subsequently held to scientific standards.

You and only you in all the world are of the opinion that a minor setting detail working one way for three characters means it is violation of canon for it to work that way. I didn't say shit about demanding scientifically statistically significant sample sizes, just that you need more than three people to set an implicit precedent about who cannot use a minor effect like Mind Trick.

I never asserted that

it is categorically impossible for the Force to be reasonably expected to obey the rules of good narrative

Yes, you did, right here:

The only thing that would establish that Mind Trick is level gated to Knights is having a Not-A-Knight try to use Mind Trick and fail in circumstances where a Knight would succeed.

This is you asserting that it is categorically impossible to rule out any usage of the Force as impossible unless it is explicitly demonstrated to be impossible onscreen

No, this is me asserting that it is categorically impossible to rule out Mind Trick as impossible unless it is explicitly demonstrated to be impossible on screen. Because Mind Trick is a fucking minor effect that doesn't even work on important people, and is not remotely enough to solve a situation on its own, and was no more of a deus ex machina than Force Telekinesis would have been when Rey fucking manifested it!

It is obviously true that it is possible to set precedents without anything nearly this explicit, as is evidenced by the fact that fleet-destroying Force powers busted out in the third act is something you are (seemingly) capable of recognizing as deus ex machina without needing to have that previously explained or demonstrated explicitly. Thus, your assertion that explicit demonstration or explanation is required to establish something is clearly false.

I only asserted it with respect to Mind Trick. Because Mind Trick isn't a big enough deal to assume that Jedi not even attempting it is because they can't even attempt it rather than because it wouldn't fix their problem.

Your complaints that the fleet-annihilating power don't map perfectly to Rey's scene are missing the point. They only need to have one thing in common: They are both justified according to your previous assertion, but you aren't even trying to defend the fleet-destroying example (because it is an extreme example that is obviously wrong), which means your previous assertion is invalid.

They are absolutely relevant, because I made an assertion about the specific power Mind Trick, not an assertion about every possible Force power that could ever exist or ever not exist.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I think "the villain is a dumb piece of garbage who is only obeyed because he can personally kill you and you aren't sure if anyone else would join you on your mutiny or sell you out because you live in fascism"

Is a perfectly decent villain concept.

I concur. Kylo is basically Joffrey: immense power wielded by an emotional infant. The combination of dangerous and pitiable is interesting. Not the most interesting, but deeper than most Star Wars characters get. It's not surprising that the First Order obeys his commands, obeying emotionally-crippled powerful men is what fascists do.

I think he's the result of a decision that trying to recapture Vader's appeal was too ambitious and risky, so they went in an obviously different direction. In a better story, he'd be a cool thematic echo for an Imperial remnant faction, a broken reflection of former dreadful greatness, but still dangerous.

Thinking about it, the snippet of a broken imperial march in TLJ's trailer is my favorite thing about the sequel films. Juices my imagination right up. Oh well.

[deaddmwalking]

No matter how ancient the Jedi Order is, there must have been a time where it did not exist. Before there was training, there were Force Sensitive characters with the potential to become Jedi. I wasn't bothered by Rey exhibiting this power under stress because I figured that was how it must have happened before the Jedi were an established order. .

On our planet there was a time before the M16 existed and a time after, that does not causally imply that at some point the M16 must have sprung into existence and that's why Jon Snow suddenly taking an M16 out and killing everyone would be a perfectly sensible choice in GoT.

Something existing does not imply it sprang into existence suddenly.

I imagine you wouldn't find it a terrible violation of the established setting if Jon Snow used a primitive hand-cannon whether powered by gunpowder or balefire (or whatever they call Alchemist’s Fire in the novels)? Using a simple version - especially the simplest - does nothing to destroy versimiltude. If your argument is that Mind Trick is a sophisticated power composed of dozens of specialized 'parts', I defy you to show us the antecedent power - what is the 'baby step' befor the power can be used in the movies.

[Quote="Chamomile]
It is obviously true that it is possible to set precedents without anything nearly this explicit, as is evidenced by the fact that fleet-destroying Force powers busted out in the third act is something you are (seemingly) capable of recognizing as deus ex machina without needing to have that previously explained or demonstrated explicitly.[/quote]

This is not the unassailable position that you think it is - in fact, it would be consistent with established precedent .

When Luke is instructed to lift the X-wing from the Dagobah swamp, he tells Yoda that rocks are one thing, but the X-wing is different because it is 'too big'. Yoda tells him that there is no difference. Not that size matters, but Luke is strong enough. Not that it's harder, but if Luke really focuses he should be able to do it. He says the only difference is in his mind . If an X-wing is no different than a rock, why should a squad of X-Wings be different than a pile of rocks? Why should a fleet of Star Destroyers be different than a squad of X-wings. If it's different in your mind Yoda seems to think you could move past that.

Regarding Rey channeling the force during her fight, Luke asks if the Force controls us and Obi-wan advises that it guides our actions.

If Yoda and Obi-wan are to be believed, there really are no limits to what you could do with the force - though there certainly are reasons why people who are strong in the force would be philosophically opposed to using it indiscriminately - including a belief that the force is guiding the galaxy to a better future as long as nobody uses the force to subvert that destination. In any case, while that is plausible, it is not substantiated. Ultimately, though, Luke manifesting from across the galaxy and maintaining a FTL connection isn't being decried as without precedent. I find that odd because the precedent for Mind Trick as a relatively inconsequential 'entry-level' power is much better established.

Pretending it is a signature power requires being unable to comprehend narrative structure and signaling in fiction.

[maglag]

Kylo Ren is a fucking horrible villain who is literally a petulant child who is a Vader cosplayer. His villainy is stupid and his competence is questionable and I just genuinely don't understand why anyone on team evil feels like taking orders from him.

Besides the already mentioned "Kylo's still strong enough to personally murderize anyone who challenges him", there's also another key factor which I believe plays a greater role:

He's Darth Vader's grandson and willing to play the part.

Darth Vader was a key part of the previous Empire, and the First Order needed somebody-anybody to replace him as Force-capable intimidating commander. Kylo's pretty flawed indeed, but he's still the closest thing they got to Vader, so they're willing to follow him. They need a hero villain.

Just like plenty of teams in History were willing to follow complete idiots just because they were direct descendants from somebody great and were willing to wear the crown and fancy clothes.

[Whipstitch]

Kylo Ren doesn't really bother me. I can understand the impulse to go with a loathsome, pathetic heel as both a contrast to James Earl Jones's gravitas and as a nod to Prequel Anakin's worst excesses. I get that having Wolverine or Darth Maul and other designated Cool Guy characters is best for business but it's not something that appeals to me very much personally.

[deaddmwalking]

That's pretty dumb. Nobody is going to follow the son of Goebbels.

Tarkin wasn't intimidated by Vader, and Vader wasn't the Emperor. And if course, this is roughly 25 years after the Rebellion, so there are plenty of people who should be alive within the established line of succession. The First Order following Snoke and Kylo Ren is dumb, but somehow saying they are willing to do it because his grandfather might have been Vader is worse. Especially because nobody in the Empire even knew Vader had a son and Vader himself didn't know he had a daughter.

[Kaelik]

That's pretty dumb. Nobody is going to follow the son of Goebbels.

Tarkin wasn't intimidated by Vader, and Vader wasn't the Emperor. And if course, this is roughly 25 years after the Rebellion, so there are plenty of people who should be alive within the established line of succession. The First Order following Snoke and Kylo Ren is dumb, but somehow saying they are willing to do it because his grandfather might have been Vader is worse. Especially because nobody in the Empire even knew Vader had a son and Vader himself didn't know he had a daughter.

Or you know... they could follow Snope because he has magic fucking powers? I don't know why this is so confusing a concept.

EDIT: Oh you were probably responding to someone I'm not reading saying something dumb.

[deaddmwalking]

EDIT: Oh you were probably responding to someone I'm not reading saying something dumb.

there's also another key factor which I believe plays a greater role:

He's Darth Vader's grandson and willing to play the part.

You're correct. Whipstitch slipped in a post 30 seconds before I clicked post. Maglag has more to say, but I'm sure you have him on ignore for a reason.

[maglag]

That's pretty dumb. Nobody is going to follow the son of Goebbels.

Tarkin wasn't intimidated by Vader, and Vader wasn't the Emperor. And if course, this is roughly 25 years after the Rebellion, so there are plenty of people who should be alive within the established line of succession. The First Order following Snoke and Kylo Ren is dumb, but somehow saying they are willing to do it because his grandfather might have been Vader is worse. Especially because nobody in the Empire even knew Vader had a son and Vader himself didn't know he had a daughter.

Kylo: I'm Vader's grandson, here to lead you!
First Order Officer #153: Oh yeah, says who?
Kylo: (Force chokes First Order Officer #153) Any other questions?
First Order Officer #154: Just like the good old times! Let's make the galaxy great again!

Much easier to prove your birtright when it comes with magic included.

[Whipstitch]

I guess I view the Kylo Ren issue as being as much a problem with the whole concept and portrayal of the First Order as much as I see it as being a problem with Ren. That is is, with the Empire the villains felt a bit more believable because you knew very little about them other than the fact that this Moff Tarkin guy was holding court over a war room full of admirals as they discussed the subjugation of the universe like it was a difficult but achievable goal. It was plausible that Tarkin signed on because he saw a clear path to being one of the 2 or 3 most powerful men in the galaxy and living under the shadow of the Emperor was a price some people were willing to pay if it meant being on the winning side. By contrast with the First Order I have no idea what the fuck is in it for these assholes even if you retcon Ren into being a charismatic figure.

[phlapjackage]

I cannot recall having heard this complaint of a new character before TFA. Isn't that how fucking new characters often get their abilities explained in movies, by doing something hard? Sometimes characters get backstories explained and other times they just do something and you're like, oh, they're a badass.

You haven't heard the complaint of a character magically (hah) being unreasonably good at several different things with not even the slightest in-movie reason given? I think your recollection might be faulty.

Characters usually have SOME justification to why they can do things. Ripley is a badass with a power loader/pulse rifle/flamer, but at least there's the tiniest bit of setup beforehand for all of that. Other characters have backgrounds of service in the police, military, etc. What's Rey's background on why she can pilot/fight/saber/force/fix/shoot ? That's she's grown up on a junk planet ? (and before whataboutists chime in, yes child-Anakin was worse in this regard too, so you don't have to try to change the subject).

Do you remember the Trench scene? Like, at all?

Luke is going to use his targeting computer, and then a Force ghost sends him brain mail that he should "use the Force" and "let go" and he decides to try that and turns off his targeting computer. Like, Luke's Death Star attack scene not only has him develop a new Force power in the middle of a stressful action scene, he develops a Force power that neither he nor the audience knew existed and immediately changes tactics accordingly. That is a thing that happens.

It's a thing that happens because of prior training. Obiwan shows up and says to Luke "Hey, remember that training with the Force we did? About letting go and letting the Force guide your actions ? It could come in handy some day". So while it's sort of a new power, it's based on principles learned in his training in the movie. Nowhere in the movie is it set up for Rey in any kind of fashion why she can use the Force like she can.

It's just extremely obvious that we wouldn't even be having this conversation if a male protagonist spontaneously developed a Force power in the third act

Re: the whole misogyny/sexism angle. Is there some version or variation of Godwin's law, but for this? Is it possible to criticize a female character without being labeled this way? Even the 2 people claiming sexism have admitted that Rey was badly characterized, so it's about splitting hairs between whether she's a Mary Sue or badly characterized. This is starting to feel like those claiming sexism/misogyny are white-knighting...

Because Luke actually does that in A New Hope and none of you fuckers are the slightest bit concerned.

Whataboutism again, because there's plenty of vitriole for Ren/Anakin/Finn/Maul/etc. In fact, I guess I need to be careful, I won't criticize Finn, don't want to be accused of racism either...

[angelfromanotherpin]

Nowhere in the movie is it set up for Rey in any kind of fashion why she can use the Force like she can.

How about her contact with Anakin's lightsaber and the visions that overtake her? Obi-wan's voice speaks to her, telling her that 'these are your first steps.' It's not a formal training scene, but it is something.

[erik]

I cannot recall having heard this complaint of a new character before TFA. Isn't that how fucking new characters often get their abilities explained in movies, by doing something hard? Sometimes characters get backstories explained and other times they just do something and you're like, oh, they're a badass.

You haven't heard the complaint of a character magically (hah) being unreasonably good at several different things with not even the slightest in-movie reason given? I think your recollection might be faulty.

Example pls? I really don't remember people being butthurt about new characters being too skilled before TFA. I'm sure it has happened, but I'd sure like an example to compare to. There were complaints about Jar-Jar and Anakin just killing people by incredible luck, but that's a different complaint versus being too competent.

What's Rey's background on why she can pilot/fight/saber/force/fix/shoot ?

Let's recap.

pilot - flies a land speeder. For all we know she has piloted other crafts, since she says she can pilot. Finn says he can handle a blaster even though up to that point all he has done is hold his dick during the first battle of his life. Can't we trust when a character says they have some background training as it being indicated?

fight - displays proficiency at hand to hand by defeating several larger ambushers, school of hard knocks

saber - already covered by "fight". it's a practically weightless wand of flaming death. If you can fight with a staff then this is easy mode. Unlike Rey, Luke has no reason to be proficient with melee weapons. Why even include this separate from "fight"? Are you just trying to pad your count of complaints? Why not include polyglot instead? Though Star Wars is so fucking spotty on who can speak what, often providing no justification, it seems a petty complaint to level against Rey specifically.

force - its barely-explained magic that is intuitive. people with lots of potential come into it pretty damn easily. With barely a pep talk it is possible to anticipate where a blaster bolt is going to come from and block it using a weapon you have no training in, while your eyes are closed.

fix - she's a scrapper. jury rigging and repairs are probably her primary skill set.

shoot - it's a pistol not rocket science. She shoots two guys. She doesn't have perfect accuracy. It's not like she mows down a whole platoon. I guess she does some additional shooting after that first scene, and her accuracy still isn't super remarkable. Can you name anyone in the setting who cannot shoot for shit? If not then it feels like when you add this to the list of unexplained proficiencies that you are just trying to pad the count.