Hey yet another fighter thread! Don't burn me please.

WiserOdin032402 · Post by **WiserOdin032402** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:05 am

Like there haven't been a million of these on this site already and I haven't read all of them while lurking in preparation to do things here.

Shit I couldn't fit in the title aside, I'm in a hard place. I'm making a compilation of 3.5 D&D changes in a document for my group to use as my DM doesn't have the spare time to go through TOME, and so I have to make changes to the system (like literally balling feats together) without pulling a TOME and making my GM's life hell. Compounding this is the fact that he's busy writing up campaign shit and going through all the 3.5 races and either modifying them or removing them.

So, I've already gotten him to the table on 6+int skill points, a semi-customizable skill list, and the Warblade's ability to gain proficiency with weapons and swap focus/specialization between them.

He's uncomfortable letting us play Book of Nine Swords unless we gimp ourselves by not abusing the fact that we get to do our stuff once every six seconds and don't simply take all the best manoeuvres from available schools. He's also aware of how Artificers work

The problems I'm running into are problems of skill selection and actual class features. I hate to say I'm trying to characterize the fighter as someone who's basically going through the shit in D&D but that's really it. In 3.5 he's a dude with a sword, and the campaign setting was super high magic before then, and I think Fighters (not warriors) would be people who have enough experience with magic items that maybe they could do something to make a magic item not function as intended. Like get a +2 sword to suddenly discharge a dimension door when it clearly shouldn't.

Any help would be much appreciated, but I'd rather this not devolve into another fighter debate fight club.

Slade · Post by **Slade** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:34 am

Pathfinder does have feats for the fighter that do just that, import them.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:27 am

I don't know what you're asking. You've said a ton of stuff and a huge amount about the minutia of your DM but haven't told me what you're doing or what you want.

What are you doing and what do you want

angelfromanotherpin · Post by **angelfromanotherpin** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:04 am

He wants help designing class features for a 'Fighter' that does spell-likes by fucking with magic items.

WiserOdin, that's a caster. It's just a caster that happens to need a minor magic item instead of a component pouch, which is... questionable, but whatever. It sounds like the spell effects don't have to have anything to do with what the item actually does (I mean, your example isn't even in the same school) and also that you don't have a fixed spell list.

That sounds a lot like you'll be cribbing the casting mechanics from the little-seen Trollman/Sulin Sorcerer and grafting them onto a fighter-like chassis, possibly through the Tome Eldritch Knight lens. Gimme a minute and I'll see what I can do.

edt: Here 'tis, someone who wears armor and semi-effectually weapon attacks most of the time, but actually contributes by being able to pull juuust the right spell effect out of their ass a very few times. I'd be less conservative writing it for my own game, but the DM involved is apparently skittish.

'Fighter' (Honest

)

Don't I look like a fighter?

In a very magical world, where physics are frequently optional, those who are limited to defending themselves with sharpened levers and springs are often SOL. A few people among these poor unfortunates have, through experience or talent or sheer desperation to survive, acquired a knack for tapping into items of power and wringing mystic effects out of them.

Starting Age: As Fighter.
Starting Equipment: 6d4x10 gp
Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d8
Base Attack Bonus: Good
Good Saving Throws: Fortitude
Skill Points: 6 + Intelligence modifier (x4 at level 1)
Class Skills: Semi-custom, apparently?


Level	BAB	Special	0th	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th
1	+1	Feat	-	-	-	-	-	-
2	+2	Wring Magic	1	0	-	-	-	-
3	+3	Feat	2	1	-	-	-	-
4	+4	–	2	1	0	-	-	-
5	+5	Feat	2	1	1	-	-	-
6	+6/+1	–	2	1	1	0	-	-
7	+7/+2	Feat	2	1	1	1	-	-
8	+8/+3	–	2	2	1	1	0	-
9	+9/+4	Feat	2	2	1	1	1	-
10	+10/+5	–	2	2	2	1	1	0

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A 'Fighter' is proficient with all simple weapons and martial weapons, as well as light armors, medium armors, heavy armors, shields, and tower shields.
Bonus Feats: At each odd-numbered level, a fighter gains a bonus fighter feat.
Wring Magic (Ex): A 'Fighter' who is holding a magic item can usually wring a spell effect out of it. For this purpose, they have a number of pseudo-spell slots indicating the number and power of effects they can wring each day. The Save DC of these effects is based on the 'Fighter's' Constitution modifier (and they gain bonus pseudo-slots based on their Con score). A 'Fighter' does not suffer Arcane Spell Failure from armor they are proficient with. A 'Fighter' does not have a spell list, and simply chooses a spell from the core Sorcerer/Wizard list of appropriate level to emulate when they wring magic.

Honestly, I think you'd be better off and more likely to succeed if you just tried to get your DM to allow a Fighter/Rogue gestalt as the 'mundane' class.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:05 am

You are trying to fix fighters, but your DM is worried about Warblades being OP, and Warblades are underwhelming, so........

You aren't going to fix fighters in this game, sorry.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:41 am

Either expand what you mean by fighter to include getting magic abilities or give up. Also I have links to several fighter threads in my very own signature. They will all tell you fighter basically needs to be able to get to and deal with common threats that appear at each level.

WiserOdin032402 · Post by **WiserOdin032402** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:27 pm

Dean wrote:What are you doing and what do you want

Trying to make a semi-caster setting-specific fighter that uses magic items as the power source for some of his shit. This isn't a complete overhaul, this isn't 'I want to fix fighters once and for all', this is simply an attempt at a group-based band-aid my DM put me up to.

Kaelik wrote:You are trying to fix fighters, but your DM is worried about Warblades being OP, and Warblades are underwhelming, so........

You aren't going to fix fighters in this game, sorry.

The only reason I've found that he's skittish about warblades other than unlimited use abilities is that apparently, this party did something years back involving more than one white raven user. I wasn't there for it at the time, but if you had an idea of what multiple white raven users could do, let me know.

angelfromanotherpin wrote:edt: Here 'tis, someone who wears armor and semi-effectually weapon attacks most of the time, but actually contributes by being able to pull juuust the right spell effect out of their ass a very few times. I'd be less conservative writing it for my own game, but the DM involved is apparently skittish.

Thank you, I think I can make something workable out of this. Especially because the level 10 ability I already had written down was 'beg DM for legacy weapon if he hasn't granted it to you and promise up and down you won't abuse it'

Thaluikhain · Post by **Thaluikhain** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:32 pm

One too many end quote tags there, WiserOdin032402, I did the same thing less than 3 days ago.

WiserOdin032402 · Post by **WiserOdin032402** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:37 pm

Okay so apparently this site doesn't have post-based HTML shenanigans on lockdown. I'll have to keep that in mind. Also preview mode kept spitting out the end quote tag at the bottom of my post.

Iduno · Post by **Iduno** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:58 pm

It's D&D, fighters can't have nice things. Unless you consider a druid with a sword a fighter. And it sounds like all you'll do by trying is frustrate the GM.

I'd go with the druid with a sword. Less work, and you aren't a dirty power-gamer because you don't use multi-classing or prestige classes. Just find out which way (your BAB or the BAB of your new shape) shapechange works with this GM beforehand.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:28 pm

Slade is right about the Pathfinder Item Mastery feats existing, covering the flavor/mechanics part of what the new guy wants. But if the MC is skittish about Warblades and too busy/lazy to read Tome material, being able to make that specific build work will probably be a no go.

Just combine core Fighter and Rogue in your doc, then call it a day. Taking Kaelik's Rogue/Ninja is optional.

Ghremdal · Post by **Ghremdal** » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:04 pm

Fighters get 2x the others WBL, and 3x at levels 11+ and can get any item they want. Fluff it how you want and jobs done.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:29 pm

The quickest and dirtiest fix for the 3.5 Fighter is to give them as a class feature a magic weapon that's a Sorcerer 2 levels lower than them. This Sorcerous item additionally treats the fighter as its familiar, meaning that the fighter and weapon have a mental connection, the fighter benefits from castings of "shield" and can deliver spell touch attacks. This is as far as the "familiar powers" should go, because I'm pretty sure that giving the fighter Improved Evasion, increasing natural armor and Int score and specially the ability to speak with others of its kind would be too OP.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:46 pm

While certainly dirty as all get out, it's most certainly not the quickest. Telling the player to make a second character is about as far from quick as you can get. You'd honestly be better off with having a personal legacy sword that works as a Tome item.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:36 pm

You're right. But the true a secondary purpose for giving every fighter a sorcerer follower magic weapon that cast spells is to steer people towards characters that can contribute by themselves. Think on it like a 6-step recovery program for fighter players.

Step 1: "The sword you found earlier is communicating with you: it tells it can cast a Shield on you, or blast a cone of magical lights that messes with monsters before you. It can use these powers a total of 4 times per day, you choose when."

Step 2: "Since you leveled up, the sword now can also use a power on you that grants a +20 on your next attack. It can use these powers a total of 5 times/day."

Step 3: "Here, choose one of these powers for the sword to learn, since you're now level 6."

Step 4: "You're about to hit level 8. Take a look at the 3rd level arcane spells on the PHB. The sword will learn one of them next level."

Step 5: "Well, you know how a sorcerer works by now. Pick the spells for your weapon."

Step 6: "Play the goddamn sorcerer."

Emerald · Post by **Emerald** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:56 pm

WiserOdin032402 wrote:The only reason I've found that he's skittish about warblades other than unlimited use abilities is that apparently, this party did something years back involving more than one white raven user. I wasn't there for it at the time, but if you had an idea of what multiple white raven users could do, let me know.

He's thinking of White Raven Tactics, a 3rd-level swift-action maneuver that grants your ally another turn on the initiative count following your own. This is abusable in two ways, first for a warblade to give himself another turn (since you're your own ally) or second to have two warblades alternate giving each other turns. This isn't a huge deal for pure warblades, because warblades need to use swift actions followed by non-maneuver actions to recover maneuvers; it ends up basically letting you get an extra full-attack or charge in every other round, which is certainly better than a fighter but not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things. It gets much worse with PrCs or multiclassed casters, but at that point it's just another way to get more spells per round and just as broken as any other such method.

There are only two debatably-overpowered maneuvers in the book, WRT and one called Iron Heart Surge, which is intended to let you pull a Conan or Captain America and throw off domination/paralysis/etc. through sheer force of will, but (A) due to action and movement requirements it doesn't actually let you remove a bunch of conditions and (B) everyone jokes about things like drow warblades being able to put out the sun due to poor wording about what counts as valid effect to end. Banning or rewriting those two maneuvers should address all of his concerns about warblades, so if you can persuade him to let you do that and give them a shot, that might be easier than figuring out an acceptable pseudo-magical fighter fix, or at least would be a better baseline to work from.

Ferret · Post by **Ferret** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:59 pm

What was the class Frank and K worked up? Leonard the Fighter or something. It had a magic item class feature, Dragon ally later on, etc

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:19 pm

This link just will not format properly, so you'll have to just copy/paste it: https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Elothar_Warri ... ige_Class)

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:21 pm

Ferret wrote:What was the class Frank and K worked up? Leonard the Fighter or something. It had a magic item class feature, Dragon ally later on, etc

It should be Elothar. But I'm pretty sure the point with Elothar is to hang a lampshade on the kind of DM pity that allows suboptimal characters to play a campaign and have fun.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:22 pm

Chamomile wrote:This link just will not format properly, so you'll have to just copy/paste it: https://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Elothar_Warri ... ige_Class)

PROTIP: change ( to %28 and ) to %29 when linking with the url tag.

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:21 am

nockermensch wrote:You're right. But the true a secondary purpose for giving every fighter a sorcerer follower magic weapon that cast spells is to steer people towards characters that can contribute by themselves. Think on it like a 6-step recovery program for fighter players.

Step 1: "The sword you found earlier is communicating with you: it tells it can cast a Shield on you, or blast a cone of magical lights that messes with monsters before you. It can use these powers a total of 4 times per day, you choose when."

Step 2: "Since you leveled up, the sword now can also use a power on you that grants a +20 on your next attack. It can use these powers a total of 5 times/day."

Step 3: "Here, choose one of these powers for the sword to learn, since you're now level 6."

Step 4: "You're about to hit level 8. Take a look at the 3rd level arcane spells on the PHB. The sword will learn one of them next level."

Step 5: "Well, you know how a sorcerer works by now. Pick the spells for your weapon."

Step 6: "Play the goddamn sorcerer."

I thought the secondary point was for the DM to have the ability to make the sword cast lethal spells on important friendly NPCs at the worrst possible time.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:53 am

It helps if you also link the old fighter threads you've already read and went over what you like about those old discussions, and what you want to do differently. Like I have a google doc of notes I enjoy from here that I copy/paste into discussions so we don't repeat something that was said 6 years ago.

I like the mechanics of the Dungeonomicon Monk:
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28547

Uses swift actions to get passive buffs and active abilities. I'd modify it to have martial and armor proficiencies. Basically Monk and Fighter becomes Wuxia with the option of going unarmed. Cu Chulainn could leap over houses and kill people with thrown apples, he would be considered a Fighter hero of his society. East Asian heroic legends of warriors have them fighting armored and unarmored, they don't differentiate between punchy Monk and armored Fighter concepts.

WiserOdin032402 · Post by **WiserOdin032402** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:33 am

Okay, so I've been busy the last few days, but I love the outpouring of support from all of you. It's great, really. I'm not going to quote all of you in this response, but I hope it will suffice.

Something I forgot to establish: I've been lurking here for two years until recently, and I honestly love TOME, even though in the end it doesn't fix all the problems with the game. It feels better to play than D&D 3.5 normally is and doesn't leave me feeling disgusting all the time. I am aware of Elothar and the way TOME items work. The problem is my DM has quite literally been spending months planning out how exactly our previous game fucked the world seven ways to sunday and doesn't have the time to be going over a new system and do college and and and.

Emerald wrote:
WiserOdin032402 wrote:The only reason I've found that he's skittish about warblades other than unlimited use abilities is that apparently, this party did something years back involving more than one white raven user. I wasn't there for it at the time, but if you had an idea of what multiple white raven users could do, let me know.
He's thinking of White Raven Tactics, a 3rd-level swift-action maneuver that grants your ally another turn on the initiative count following your own. This is abusable in two ways, first for a warblade to give himself another turn (since you're your own ally) or second to have two warblades alternate giving each other turns. This isn't a huge deal for pure warblades, because warblades need to use swift actions followed by non-maneuver actions to recover maneuvers; it ends up basically letting you get an extra full-attack or charge in every other round, which is certainly better than a fighter but not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things. It gets much worse with PrCs or multiclassed casters, but at that point it's just another way to get more spells per round and just as broken as any other such method.

There are only two debatably-overpowered maneuvers in the book, WRT and one called Iron Heart Surge, which is intended to let you pull a Conan or Captain America and throw off domination/paralysis/etc. through sheer force of will, but (A) due to action and movement requirements it doesn't actually let you remove a bunch of conditions and (B) everyone jokes about things like drow warblades being able to put out the sun due to poor wording about what counts as valid effect to end. Banning or rewriting those two maneuvers should address all of his concerns about warblades, so if you can persuade him to let you do that and give them a shot, that might be easier than figuring out an acceptable pseudo-magical fighter fix, or at least would be a better baseline to work from.

Yeah JFC. I can see why he has a one warblade/crusader limit. Since he hasn't taken steps to fix those things other than be skittish, I'll have to throw in those two for the fix bin, maybe copy/paste Path of War stuff and pretend it's my own fix or something.

OgreBattle wrote:It helps if you also link the old fighter threads you've already read and went over what you like about those old discussions, and what you want to do differently. Like I have a google doc of notes I enjoy from here that I copy/paste into discussions so we don't repeat something that was said 6 years ago.

I like the mechanics of the Dungeonomicon Monk:
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28547

Uses swift actions to get passive buffs and active abilities. I'd modify it to have martial and armor proficiencies. Basically Monk and Fighter becomes Wuxia with the option of going unarmed. Cu Chulainn could leap over houses and kill people with thrown apples, he would be considered a Fighter hero of his society. East Asian heroic legends of warriors have them fighting armored and unarmored, they don't differentiate between punchy Monk and armored Fighter concepts.

Okay there's a guy in the thread...username is MGuy. All those links in his sig? All of those and then some. I'd have to comb through my phone's history to find all of them, and I've also read through all of the Pathfinder and D&D 5e thread.

There's a reason I came in here saying 'I think Fighters (not warriors) would be people who have enough experience with magic items that maybe they could do something to make a magic item not function as intended'. I had an idea in mind. This is not a 'I want my mundane dude to sword on par with wizards' setup. This is a chance my DM gave me to fix a flaw he saw in the game. I don't want to fix all fighters forever in one grand sweep that puts the mundane dude on par with a wizard, as my DM is busy at that end of the spectrum cutting casters down a notch or so.

I'm trying to make a fighter, a dude who fights, in a world of magic and sorcery, where magic items are common, and fighters just so happen to stand out from warriors or rogues by being assholes who use magic items and weapons better than most people. Warblades stand by their martial techniques, Duskblades have their magic casting, Barbarians have their supernatural rage, Paladins have their god, and Fighters have that kickass set of magic swag that they know how to use better than you because they have to work that much harder at staying ahead of the previous assholes plus Clerics who actively shit on the world because they wrote 'cleric' on their sheet.

I really do like Angelfromanotherpin's proposed Fighter. I'd probably flavour 'Wring Magic' as a reality check to the fighter that he needs to do something to get ahead of the game. And yes that level 10 empty is the perfect place to slot 'bug DM for a legacy weapon that doesn't shit on your saves'.

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:25 am

nockermensch wrote:Think on it like a 6-step recovery program for fighter players.

I'm totally stealing this for a future comic page, just letting you know.