The Gaming Den Forum Index The Gaming Den
Welcome to the Gaming Den.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Google
 Search WWW   Search tgdmb.com 
[OSSR]Double Bill: Drow of the Underdark
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Gaming Den Forum Index -> In My Humble Opinion...
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Ancient History
Invincible Overlord


Joined: 18 Aug 2010
Posts: 11453

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

OSSR: Drow of the Underdark

Racial Mechanics


That doesn't have anything to do with this section, but it doesn't not have anything to do with this section.

AncientH

The basic mechanics for the Drow are presented in the Monstrous Manual/Monster Manual (hell, they're even in the SRD). But because of this, the mechanics tend to get pretty...fiddly.



Greenwood's basic approach to everything is (often) small bonuses/drawbacks to (often) circumstantial situations which give creatures just a little more fuck-you power. So for example:

Greenwood wrote:
Drow are rarely surprised. DMs should add the expecting attack +2 modifier to all drow surprise rolls. This is because drow always expect attack, whether in the wild Underdark or surface world, in their own cities (where rival drow may strike with a dagger, dart, or spell at any time), or even at home (where rival family members may seize an unguarded moment to prune the family tree).

Wait, are there even trees in the Underdark? Wouldn't this be "prune the family web?"

The 2007 approach is full-shovelware, with more feats and prestige classes and templates and shit. Notably, stuff like the Drow Paragon is straight-up ignored...and for all that Drow qualfy for any Elf-based prestige class like Arcane Archer, you don't see that really pushed pretty much anywhere. I'm sure there's an AD&D equivalent where Drow should be able to qualify for Elf kits and that just never happens, but it's a more noticeable and egregious absence in the d20 material.

Frank

The 1991 comes out front and says in the clearest and most unanswerable fashion that Ed Greenwood absolutely gives zero fucks about “game balance” or whether the proffered mechanics “work” or any of that fucking 21st century objective game design quality criteria horseshit. He just doesn't care. It was 1991 so maybe he didn't know that was a thing people might ask him to care about, but the important part is that he absolutely doesn't and wants you and everyone in your playgroup to know it.

Drow of the Underdark, 1991 wrote:
When creating Drow characters, Dms may elect to add +1 to Intelligence score rolls, and +1 or +2 to Dexterity scores, to a maximum of 18.


That's right bitches, there are racial bonuses and the author hasn't decided what they even are! He doesn't give a shit, and fuck you for even asking!



The 3rd edition racial traits don't so much vary on a “DM's whim” sort of fashion as they are just different every single fucking time they are written up anywhere. I don't just mean that the Drow set of magical resistances keep getting changed, although they totally do, I mean that even just basic shit like the core stat bonuses are different in every single fucking book. In the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Drow get different stat lines for males and females. In the 3.5 Monster Manual they get +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma; in the Player's Guide to Faerun there's a +0 Level Adjustment Lesser Drow and fucking fuck it just goes on and on. In any case, the Drow in this book are +2 Intelligence, + 2 Charisma, +Dexterity, and -2 Constitution. Women Drow, we are told, are bigger and more muscly on average, but not enough to warrant having different stat adjustments.

AncientH

One of the more important questions with drow is "what about Half-Drow?" And i don't mean just the Drowic version of Half-Elves, I mean Elves-with-Drow-heritage. So that you could have a PC elf that is half Aquatic Elf and half Drow (there was a marriage made in...well, they probably weren't married, put it that way). Despite the fact I know these are addressed...somewhere...they are not addressed in these books, which is where you would sort of expect to find them. Because fuck you.

Another major issue with the Drow is that as NPCs they come equipped with a bunch of innate spell-like abilities and magic resistance. As a PC, this would be "broken," so there are various nerfs in place...and, as with the half-drow, omissions. For example, Races of Faerun (2003) has stuff like half-drow and a bunch of drow-specific and drow-friendly feats like Arachnid Rider (skill bonus to riding spiders), Highborn Drow (unlock more spell-like abilities), Deepening Darkness (improve racial Drow spell-like ability), and Drow Eyes (let half-drow see as good as drow in the dark). Now, these are all shit feats, because most of them don't scale with level and even the ones that do are just giving you a couple utilitarian spell-like abilities in exchange for a fucking feat slot, and maybe they felt weird reprinting them since it was only four fucking years since they were first printed...but I can't even find a pointer to them in this book, which makes me think maybe the writers weren't even aware they existed.

Frank

Drow are just better than you at most adventurish activities. They are less likely to get surprised by ninjas bursting through the door, more likely to stay conscious after ingesting poison, and more likely to resist deadly magic. Further, they even have a limited number of cool magic tricks, which are of general use in specifically fighting player characters. That last bit is considered problematic because while the generic spell package of being a Drow doesn't include any spells that land knock-out punches or win major combats, there's some serious utility magic in there and normally you'd have to advance three levels in Wizard to get all that crazy crap. Which makes it hard to present these characters as remotely balanced options for player characters. Because let's face it: they obviously are not. Drow were made to get a lot of the basic shit they'd need to compete with experienced adventurers in squad based combat on the ground floor, so obviously if you take that as your base ability set instead of an ability set like “is short and fat” like lots of the other races get, and then layer real adventurer's skills and equipment on top of that, you get something unrecognizable.

The 1991 book suggests that player characters should just all forget how to use their innate Drow magic. There's not a massively satisfying explanation for how or why that would happen, but I believe it has something to do with “I'm the DM and I'm depowering your munchkin character and if you don't like it I can fucking kill your character altogether.” The 3.5 rules instead assigned a penalty where you counted as a character 2 levels higher than your actual adventurer level and you will absolutely never be any good at anything. So in either case the player reads up on all the cool things Drow get to do and then they ask to play one and they get told they can, but only if they actually don't get to do all those extra cool things. Also, go fuck yourself.



That being said, the 2nd edition version is less of a giant fuck-you to the players, and indeed the stuff they are left with is still pretty damn good. Which is of course part of why Drow characters were ubiquitous in some 2nd edition campaigns and virtually unknown in virtually every 3rd edition campaign.


There may have been another contributing factor. I guess we will never know.

AncientH

Drow society is not sufficiently developed to give us a lot of good alternates to the basic character classes, beyond spider-wizard and Lolth-cleric. Now, what arguably should happen is that the Drow absolutely steal all the Elvish kits from the Master Race's Handbook and laugh like the evil bastards they are as they do edgy versions of bladesong and spellsong and prance around like evil child-stealing cousin-fuckers.



...or they could pull some stuff out of their ass. Maybe the writers just didn't want Drow to have nice things, but they went with the latter.

Part of this might be because the level caps for races was in full play in AD&D, so while Drow could multiclass, they still had limited potential for advancement. I mean, more than you would ever get through in normal play, but still limited.

Frank

The 1991 book is a 2nd edition product, so you'd think there would be a bunch of Kits, which were sort of like 3rd edition's Prestige Classes except you took them at 1st level. Technically it does have some, in that Specialty Priests are considered kits in that system. But basically the only player facing kit in the whole book is Cleric of Eilistraee. As previously noted, that kit is about as powerful as anything in 2nd edition is capable of being, so it's not like the players lose out particularly. But there isn't even a pretense that you might give a shit about what player character Drow Thieves and Fighters might be getting up to.

The 2007 version on the other hand, lives up to expectations entirely. Which is to say it has a metric fucktonne of fiddly character options of all sorts. 10 pages of feats. 4 pages of spells, 3 pages of alternate class features for Drow of various classes, 27 pages of prestige classes, and 14 pages of equipment mundane and magical. That's 58 pages of just weird shit you can write on your character sheet. There was a time when that would have been the entire length of a rules supplement – and in those days the books had less words per page.


He just looks so happy about his dumb class features.

Now the information density here is absurdly low by anything but the most decadent post-bankruptcy Whitewolf standards. Those 28 pages of prestige classes are just eight actual classes. Those ten pages of feats actually average less than 6 feats per page. It's not quite 4th edition D&D bad in terms of space wasting, but it's obviously moving in that direction. You can see how a year later the D&D design team would have gotten so Melnibonean in their decadence that they'd use up twelve thousand words describing the basic Ranger class. Honestly many of the people involved are on both projects.


We got your decadent Dark Elves right here.

The feats in the 2007 version are the perfect example of decadent bullshit filler material. Shit like Staggering Critical is in here. It's a feat that sits on top of the Improved Critical feat chain and requires a Base Attack Bonus of +12 and the result is that when you critical strike with your weapons your target gets slowed for 1 round. You could hand that ability out at 2nd level and no one would care because it would hardly ever matter. But beyond that, there's nothing particularly “Drow” about that feat. It could be in any book, and indeed probably was. There's a very real chance they printed that exact feat in a few other books. People definitely wrote up this feat with very minor alterations in 4th edition, 5th edition, and even Pathfinder (where it hands out the actual staggered condition). And no one fucking cares!

AncientH

Feat bloat isn't the only sin here, but it's worth mentioning that the way D&D handed out feats and the way D&D designed feats were two entirely different things. Drow characters start out being able to cast darkness and there are feats like At Home In The Deep, Blend Into Shadows, and Fade Into Darkness, Instinctive Darkness, Intensify Darkness, Master of Shadow that either modify, enhance, or complement that ability...and none of them are worth a feat slot. Taken together, they might be worth a feat slot, but it's still just a couple tricks contingent on a single ability. Nobody in their right mind was going to take a bunch of feats so they could play with a spell-like ability of a level 2 spell.

And that's before you get to any of the feats that directly modify Spell-Like Abilities which you aren't going to take. If this were Mutants & Masterminds, and you were building a Drow from a big pool of points and feats were cheap and easy, you might well invest in some of those, because with another modifiers you could make darkness your schtick and it might be amazing. But in regular d20, you're behind the power curve a lot if you're investing in these feats. These are the kind of bullshit feats that a pedantic Mister Cavern might layer on to an NPC designed to give the PCs a hard time in a specific situation where their ability gives them a surprising advantage...and we have a term for that:

Closet trolls.



As Frank said, most of the feats don't actually require you to explicitly be a drow to take them. This is good, because it gives people a reason to buy the book, even if the feats themselves are largely shit. I'm not sure which ones you'd actually take - Poison Spell and Umbral Spell, maybe? I could see a Fighter/Mage type that specialized in touch spells use Poison Spell just for added "fuck you," and if you already have darkvision Umbral Spell might be a good way to negate magical light sources - but I'd still have made it a 0-spell level adjustment. No, I still can't say these are good feats to take.

Frank

There is some clues as to Drow material culture in the various equipment and prestige classes in the two books. The pieces do not add up to a complete picture in any meaningful way.

Quote:
For the drow who pursue the life of a ranger or druid – normally impractical classes for members of a subterranean race – the existence of the cavestalker is validation for this unconventional choice.


There is just so much fucking wrong with that. I think it starts with the fact that Ranger and Druid abilities actually work just fine in underground natural areas – and that's most of the Underdark. But also Cavestalkers suck spider dick.


Suck it. The Cavestalker already did, so it's not like we're making you go first.

The 1991 version goes on about various Drow swag for 26 pages. Now most of this is given to long winded rants about how radiation has makes shit special in various incoherent ways. The nominal purpose of all this is so that there will be items that the Drow strike teams can use against the players that the players won't be able to keep forever. Which is the core problem of this as far as actually having a culture that can generate role playing and storytelling opportunities, there's basically nothing there. This is all very shallowly an attempt to cover a perceived game mechanical need rather than an attempt to make anything even vaguely applicable to the world building portion of the game design.

And let's not forget: the perceived game mechanical requirement to have enemies that had equipment roughly as good as what the player characters were using without letting the player characters get extra copies of player-relevant equipment was perception. There's no particular reason why shit couldn't work like Diablo and just have swag that was slightly not as good as the rare swag you were actually using drop off of monsters constantly.


The existence of rare items means that medium level characters could actually fight enemies equipped entirely with “common” magic items all the fucking time and it wouldn't have meant shit.

AncientH

Drow should have some giant fucking spider-farms. Spider-breeding should be a major occupation, the harvesting and manufacture of spider silk and items made from spider-silk should be a major Drow industry. Spidersilk to Drow should be like wool to the British. If the Drow ever had an industrial revolution, it would involve using watermills to drive looms for spidersilk socks to sell to the duergar. But nobody seems to want to write that, for reasons I don't understand.



Frank

As long as the game intends to have wealth by level be a viable gate on character power, having a prohibitive cost on poisons meant that poison of any kind simply might as well not exist. 3.5 was extremely terrible about that, and the only time players ever used poisons was when they figured out that they could mass manufacture temporary poison with creation spells. And of course, once you can do that, the existence of lower or even medium end poisons is meaningless – obviously you're going to create the baddest, nastiest, smelliest, most lethal poisons in the game using those methods.

It means that fucking no one is ever going to spend a pound of gold to get a single application of roach paste for their sword. Because roach paste is almost literally shit (it makes people sick).


Or you could get a poo stick.

AncientH

Let me do a quick rundown of the prestige classes:

Arachnomancers - Gain spider magic, turn into spiders. This is a fiddly class that's technically open to arcane or divine casters, but the requirements are geared toward arcane. Also, you don't want to turn into a giant spider. It never helps.

Cavestalker - 10-level prestige class to be better at fighting in caves. Which involves negating a lot of difficulties for fighting in caves that Mister Cavern isn't going to think to apply anyway.

Demonbinder - Warlock prestige class, because D&D is still allergic to actually binding demons. Involves a new resource, Damnation Points. If this sounds a lot like Binding magic from the Tome of Magic, well...yeah, ToM came out the year before. And yet, it sucked so hard, the Demonbinder is not officially a Binder PrC! They went out of their way to not involve any ToM mechanics or references at all.

Dread Fang of Lolth - Thief PrC that gains Sudden Strike in place of Sneak Attack. So...Drow Ninja PrC? The thing about SS is all the decent feats/class feature expansions are based on Sneak Attack.

Eye of Lolth - Cleric/Thief or Cleric/Scout PrC that...gives you thief upgrades? The prerequisites for this class are insane given the actual abilities it gives you. I guess you'll be a well-rounded character by the end of it, but that's still like 14-16th level, long after you've stopped playing.

Insidious Corrupter - Wants to be a Pornomancer, is not a Pornomancer. 5 spellcasting levels in a 10-level PrC make this small in the pants.

Kinslayer - Another interminable variation on the Slayer PrC, this time aimed at elves. These all suck, avoid.

Frank

I feel like I should have more to say about all this material, because there is a lot of it. But it was almost all “player” materials that were deliberately crafted to be hard or impossible for players to use.

It would be one thing if this was all “flavor balanced” where the authors had made an elaborate castle in the sky with a fully fleshed out culture that was interesting to talk about but didn't quite have any hooks to sink into for the actual game. I totally understand why that shit happens. That's a second order game design problem. But this is just a first order game design problem. This shit is designed to be hard to use in a game, and it is. That's fucked up.

What this really points to is that while the Drow themes aren't terribly strong, they are present. They are the dicks with a spiders and shadows motif. I can imagine what a Drow bedroom looks like, which is more than I can say for Dark Ones or Xvarts or any of several dozen other bad guy races in D&D. So if I wanted to play a grim 90s hero from a monster race (and let's be honest: in the 90s I very much wanted to do that), the Drow were deeper than any of the other options on the table. Which is sad, but there we go.

And the fact that the D&D authors kept acting like people wanting to actually play Drow was some sort of personal insult was extremely weird and lame.

AncientH

The lack of thought that went into the drow is kind of telling. I don't know if they thought "Evil elves" would write themselves or what, but quite clearly that is not the case here, and not just because they wouldn't actually give the drow any of the elf toys to play with (even if they never specifically denied them the right to use said toys). The 2007 version at least bends over to make the character options as "friendly to non-drow as possible," but that just means this is a sourcebook people dip into for an ill-advised feat, spell, or prestige class, not to design a drow character or figure out how drow live and function.


At this point, they should just let Drowtales write the fluff and be done with it. They've put more thought into this than any of the game designers ever have.
_________________
The Unpublishable - Updates Fridays between midnight and midnight | http://wikithulhu.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wiseman
Duke


Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 1182
Location: lost... HELP!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hyzmarca wrote:
Quote:
Ghaunadaur is a big purple tentacle monster that gibbers unspeakably and is completely interchangeable with the demon lord Jubilex and I don't care.


Hey, Ghaunadaur is the gibbering god of Rebel Slimes.

That's awesome.

Like, every Gelatinous Cube who left their dungeon to try to make it in Hollywood? That's Ghaunadaur 's thing.


And the Ochre Jelly Che Gruverras with their AK-47s fighting to overthrow the man. Ghaunadaur has their back.

I don't think most people really understand the awesomeness that can come from the intersection of slimes and rebels.

Just look at this dogma

Ghaunadaur wrote:
All creatures have their place, and all are fit to wield power.


That's about as close as you can get to egalitarianism in an evil slime god.

There are just so many ways you can go with this.

Roper Pirates of the Caribbean.
Braveheart Aboleths
Black Pudding Robespierre


DSMatticus wrote:
I've always handled D&D religion with the Godly Pact of Doing Fuck All.


I prefer the opposite. Gods interact with their followers a lot, but they're very mortal. Sending visions and stuff is just a matter of safety, because if they went down personally anyone could stab them in the face. They're also fairly busy and don't have the attention to keep track of all their clerics, much less all the lay people, so giant organizations are helpful at that.


Nowadays, I lean more towards the exploitative cult angle for many evil gods. They promise to offer you power/revenge/success/purity/salvation/whatever but in reality you're just getting brainwashed into servitude while the higher ups are the ones who really reap the benefits (heck, they might even be the poster boys for the cult).
_________________
Check out my RP site!

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
maglag
Duke


Joined: 02 Apr 2015
Posts: 1171

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Omegonthesane wrote:
maglag wrote:
Humie rulers also need humans, but that does not stop humie rulers from making bad and stupid decisions leading to revolutions and civil wars and chopped royal jeads and whatnot.

Remember the Astral sea is littered with dead god corpses that precisely failed to maintain a stable supply of worshipers so indeed several do screw up.

Hence "the ones old enough to drink".


And indeed the 2007 book points out that Lolth does care to maintain a stable supply of drows, calling the priestesses to start working together when the backstabbing is getting too intense or when some bigger external threat to the drow shows up.

hyzmarca wrote:

I prefer the opposite. Gods interact with their followers a lot, but they're very mortal. Sending visions and stuff is just a matter of safety, because if they went down personally anyone could stab them in the face. They're also fairly busy and don't have the attention to keep track of all their clerics, much less all the lay people, so giant organizations are helpful at that.


I prefer that too. D&D gods are not by any means omnipotent or omniscient, and there's plenty of high level threats not only from other gods but non-gods too meaning just maintaining your statuos quo already is plenty of work.
_________________
FrankTrollman wrote:

Actually, our blood banking system is set up exactly the way you'd want it to be if you were a secret vampire conspiracy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thaluikhain
Duke


Joined: 29 Sep 2016
Posts: 1260

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hyzmarca wrote:
Hey, Ghaunadaur is the gibbering god of Rebel Slimes.

That's awesome.

Like, every Gelatinous Cube who left their dungeon to try to make it in Hollywood? That's Ghaunadaur 's thing.


Ghaunadaur is the evil god of Hollywood slime? Yeah, ok, that's impressively evil.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OgreBattle
King


Joined: 03 Sep 2011
Posts: 5186

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Did any notD&D ever make Dark Humans? Like they're definitely humans but they're all born evil and you can tell by their skin color
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wiseman
Duke


Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 1182
Location: lost... HELP!

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, there's the Vashar from the BoVD. They're not black people though, they have the same diversity as normal humans.

EDIT: Scratch that, they're all white people.
_________________
Check out my RP site!

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


Last edited by Wiseman on Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:50 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
OgreBattle
King


Joined: 03 Sep 2011
Posts: 5186

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hmmm, did racial villains like Fu Manchu influence the development of Drow, subconsciously maybe?

Spiders and poison is the sort of thing Fu Manchu does and he has a sexy temptress daughter.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thaluikhain
Duke


Joined: 29 Sep 2016
Posts: 1260

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Half of everyone has a sexy temptress daughter, though. Poison isn't that unusual either.

Having said that, and now that I think about it, Fu Manchu, if not an influence, wouldn't seem that out of place made into a Drow. I think.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Prak
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 16242

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There's also Ra's and Talia al Gul, though that may be because they are based on Fu Manchu, so far as I'm aware.
_________________
Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ancient History
Invincible Overlord


Joined: 18 Aug 2010
Posts: 11453

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

OgreBattle wrote:
Hmmm, did racial villains like Fu Manchu influence the development of Drow, subconsciously maybe?

Spiders and poison is the sort of thing Fu Manchu does and he has a sexy temptress daughter.

Yellow Peril, no. Colonialist fiction of the Lost World/Lost Race stories, yes. Hidden civilizations underground ruled by matriarchs/queens/etc. is standard pulpy fair for the "scientific romance" genre. Hell, they could have picked it up from comic books.
_________________
The Unpublishable - Updates Fridays between midnight and midnight | http://wikithulhu.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CapnTthePirateG
Duke


Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 1466

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Weirdly 5e drow are the only race in the PHB the DM is explicitly called out as encouraged to ban, so the drow PC = bad stigma is still there.
_________________
OgreBattle wrote:
"And thus the denizens learned that hating Shadzar was the only thing they had in common, and with him gone they turned their venom upon each other"
-Sarpadian Empires, vol. I


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ancient History
Invincible Overlord


Joined: 18 Aug 2010
Posts: 11453

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, I think it's the Sabbat Handbook thing again - D&D has never really "grown up" with the idea of opposing factions, but drow/elves is about as explicit and enduring a split in that direction that you get. There's no sort of Romulan/Vulcan reunification thing, the lives of the drow aren't presented in some kind of empathetic "we have deep cultural divides but are still humanoids deserving of life and respect" kinda way - they're monsters. Pretty, pointy-eared, purple-nippled monsters that worship a demon spider queen. D&D as a game has never been good at letting people play monsters, or even acknowledging that playing monsters is a thing that players want to do.
_________________
The Unpublishable - Updates Fridays between midnight and midnight | http://wikithulhu.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hyzmarca
Prince


Joined: 14 Mar 2011
Posts: 3553

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Great, Now I'm imaging a faction of Drow that fucked off to Mechanus to hang out with the Modrons and learn about Logic.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DrPraetor
Knight-Baron


Joined: 02 Apr 2009
Posts: 852

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hyzmarca wrote:
Great, Now I'm imaging a faction of Drow that fucked off to Mechanus to hang out with the Modrons and learn about Logic.


http://images.google.com/search?q=steampunk+drow

??
_________________
Chaosium rules are made of unicorn pubic hair and cancer. --AncientH
When you talk, all I can hear is "DunningKruger" over and over again like you were a god damn Pokemon. --Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hyzmarca
Prince


Joined: 14 Mar 2011
Posts: 3553

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

DrPraetor wrote:
hyzmarca wrote:
Great, Now I'm imaging a faction of Drow that fucked off to Mechanus to hang out with the Modrons and learn about Logic.


http://images.google.com/search?q=steampunk+drow

??


More like

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thaluikhain
Duke


Joined: 29 Sep 2016
Posts: 1260

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ancient History wrote:
purple-nippled


Is this canon? Did someone think it important to define drow nipple colour?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FrankTrollman
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 27312

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thaluikhain wrote:
Ancient History wrote:
purple-nippled


Is this canon? Did someone think it important to define drow nipple colour?


Drow nipple and tongue colors have been defined several times, but not the same way each time. When it comes to the really obvious questions like "What are Drow Eye colors?" and "Other than white, what are the available Drow Hair colors?" you get different answers pretty much everywhere. The Drow of the Underdark from 1991 simply has a different color list than Drow of the Underdark 2007. When it comes to questions like Drow Nipple Color and Drow Tongue Color and whether Drow have Underarm Hair and so on and so forth, there is even less agreement, but of course the questions are not even addressed in all or most sources.

Drow of the Underdark 1991 talks about Drow Tongue Color, and apparently they are pink, red, or purple. It also specifies that Drow Teeth are white, red, or black. The 2007 book doesn't mention any colors for either part of the anatomy.

-Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Koumei
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 12879
Location: South Ausfailia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Aren't all elves devoid of body hair in D&D, drow included? Or am I thinking of the elves of one of ten thousand other games?
_________________
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FrankTrollman
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 27312

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
Aren't all elves devoid of body hair in D&D, drow included? Or am I thinking of the elves of one of ten thousand other games?


DnD can't even decide if Elves are tall or short. Seems to vary with the sexual preferences of individual authors and artists. Like, the numbers in Ed Greenwood's book indicate Drow that are barely taller than Dwarves and weigh less than 40 kg. But most artists drawing Drow dominatrices (plural of dominatrix) show them towering over human doods they are torturing.

-Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
maglag
Duke


Joined: 02 Apr 2015
Posts: 1171

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ancient History wrote:
Well, I think it's the Sabbat Handbook thing again - D&D has never really "grown up" with the idea of opposing factions, but drow/elves is about as explicit and enduring a split in that direction that you get. There's no sort of Romulan/Vulcan reunification thing, the lives of the drow aren't presented in some kind of empathetic "we have deep cultural divides but are still humanoids deserving of life and respect" kinda way - they're monsters. Pretty, pointy-eared, purple-nippled monsters that worship a demon spider queen. D&D as a game has never been good at letting people play monsters, or even acknowledging that playing monsters is a thing that players want to do.


Did you miss warforged or dragonborn in 3.5 that went to become one of the main races of D&D 4e?

Or the words in your own post:
Ancient History wrote:

The 1991 version reminds us that 2nd edition AD&D was terrible by going off on rants about the special game mechanics that were used by priests of various drow gods, including unique spells. So few fucks were given that the Vhaeraun special spell doesn't even have a listed spell level and no one ever noticed or cared. The only god that the 1991 book particularly cares about is Eilistraee, and it goes on and on and on about her clerics. Eilistraee is the drow goddess of sexy naked dancing ladies for good, and it is expected that any and all player characters would be her worshipers. And they were, because 2nd edition AD&D was very proscriptive about what you were allowed to play, and also in that the special spells of Eilistraee's clerics were these spellsongs that let you prepare variables into spell slots and dumpster dive through other books to get weird bullshit priest spells, and your favored weapon was a fucking longsword in an edition where that was super important and also very good.

While the initial appeal of the cult of Eilistraee is obviously a stroke fantasy, it also happens to be pretty much literally the most power-gaming option in most campaigns it was even allowed.

Eilistraee is friends with all the good-guy groups, including the Harpers. Because that way you are maximally allowed to play one of them. Her spells are exactly what you'd want if you wanted to break the game and didn't want the slightest possibility of new content making your character obsolete. Her preferred weapons are just to use the best weapons. It's simply a checklist of all the best things a specialty priest group could possibly have in the 2nd edition AD&D game. Once 3rd edition happened and changed what was good and what was shit, no one gave a single shit about Eilistraee or her sexy dancing sword priestesses. People who started playing the game in 3rd edition might not know who Eilistraee even was, but in the mid-nineties she was inescapable.


D&D already had rules for playing team good drow, and by this forum's standards pretty good ones and by your own words pretty popular.

Now contrast to Vampire the Masquerade. A game all about playing vampires, yet Frank and others are always complaining how most of their vampire rules are SSHHHIITTT!

So D&D does know that players want to play monsters and does attempt to give players tools for that. But shit's tough, and expecting the hundreds(thousands) of D&D monsters to be playable when other rpgs fail at making a single one is kinda insane if you ask me.

In particular when D&D has several times produce popular monster options like dragonborn and warforged and 2e drow (and I've met several people who enjoyed the "lesser" 3.X versions too).
_________________
FrankTrollman wrote:

Actually, our blood banking system is set up exactly the way you'd want it to be if you were a secret vampire conspiracy.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
deaddmwalking
Duke


Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 1727

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Warforged and Dragon-born were both created as player races. They were not 'monsters' anymore than the changeling is a doppleganger.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Koumei
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 12879
Location: South Ausfailia

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
DnD can't even decide if Elves are tall or short.


Good point.

Quote:
dominatrices (plural of dominatrix)


Please, there are many things you do need to explain to me, but this isn't one of them.
_________________
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
There is NOTHING better than lesbians. Lesbians make everything better.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thaluikhain
Duke


Joined: 29 Sep 2016
Posts: 1260

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
Drow nipple and tongue colors have been defined several times, but not the same way each time. When it comes to the really obvious questions like "What are Drow Eye colors?" and "Other than white, what are the available Drow Hair colors?" you get different answers pretty much everywhere. The Drow of the Underdark from 1991 simply has a different color list than Drow of the Underdark 2007. When it comes to questions like Drow Nipple Color and Drow Tongue Color and whether Drow have Underarm Hair and so on and so forth, there is even less agreement, but of course the questions are not even addressed in all or most sources.

Drow of the Underdark 1991 talks about Drow Tongue Color, and apparently they are pink, red, or purple. It also specifies that Drow Teeth are white, red, or black. The 2007 book doesn't mention any colors for either part of the anatomy.

-Frank


Ok, hair colour, I could see that being sorta important for the look of the character. Eye colour, less so. Tongue and teeth, no, nipples really no. Don't see why that should be specified once, let alone retconned.

Having said that...red or black teeth? Dyed, or are they not made of normal teeth?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hyzmarca
Prince


Joined: 14 Mar 2011
Posts: 3553

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thaluikhain wrote:

Ok, hair colour, I could see that being sorta important for the look of the character. Eye colour, less so. Tongue and teeth, no, nipples really no. Don't see why that should be specified once, let alone retconned.

Having said that...red or black teeth? Dyed, or are they not made of normal teeth?


It's really important for the artists who are coloring drow nipples. Which could include cover artists.

It doesn't even have to be female nipples. It could just be a bare-chested Drow barbarian on the cover.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Prak
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 16242

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

On the topic of coloration, is the range of colors for drow hair and eyes even... realistically correlated? Awhile back, I considered hair and eye color for a goblin I was drawing and realized that the two things, in humans, have correlating shades and ranges, for the most part at least, if we take blue eyes as correlating to black hair and green eyes correlating to blonde.

Now, I have no clue if this is just a coincidence that I reasoned myself into believing a rule, or what, but do drow colorations correlate that way, at least within the same book?
_________________
Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Gaming Den Forum Index -> In My Humble Opinion... All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group