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So what the shit is so bad about Shadowrun?
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Trill
Journeyman


Joined: 26 May 2017
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

PrometheanVigil wrote:
Too arbitrary. Mechanical consequence is best. Otherwise, it's down to the GM and in my experience, most GMs are shit at or cowards about coming down on stupid shit. At least if you give them this, they've got something to lean on or we've now just confirmed they're a shithead and shouldn't be hosting games at all.

see, this is where we're going to disagree. It being dependent on the GM? I see that as a good thing. Because as seen in the Role-play rules thread, how exactly and for what they are punished, should be in the hands of the GM.
Want to play a dark version where murder and strife are a daily occurrence, where the Dystopia is clearly visible? Go for it.
Want to show a world half full, where the people have survived multiple apocalypses (what's the plural of Apocalypse anyway?) and where they have managed to build a (slightly dysfunctional) but working system? Go for it.
Want to have a game where there are pockets of darkness around, but which is otherwise not much more grim than our world; a world where murder is investigated and seen as deplorable? Go for it.
The GM himself should decide how he approaches the response, from it being ignored to CSI going after you. And rules wouldn't help much, since a GM wanting them can just ignore them, an undecided GM won't be able to apply them satisfactorily and a lazy GM just won't apply them unless necessary.

Quote:
To be clear, "bad thing" here is rape, murder, torture, GBH... to tell me this wouldn't fuck with you unless you were a psychopath means we exist on two separate planes of reality here.

People have an amazing ability to rationalize such stuff if they want/need to. "That's not a human being, that's just CorpSec. Either he goes down or I do and I definitely value myself more than him." of course there are non-lethal means available (and I run it that using them gives you a lighter response than going "let god sort you out"). But in the spur of the moment, when you have to decide "Risk grabbing my non-lethal weapon or just killing him" they'll likely decide for the second and likely won't even feel bad about it.

Quote:
since you'll lose precious EXP because you knocked over a homeless person's tent/shopping cart accidentally.

No, you don't. Where do you see that you would?

Quote:
See, there was no need for them to make Karma also be EXP here.

And again: Karma (the Experience points you get) =/= Karma (the concept of how good a person you are)
You can be the definition of a Saint and still have no Karma to spend, or the definition of a Monster and have tons of it to spend on stuff.

Quote:
My problem is that the game has inextricably linked morality with stuff core to the system

and again: Where?

Quote:
This game just gets more broken the further on your level up your build, jesus...

not really. A Character with 300 Karma down his belt is not that much better compared to the same character at the beginning.
Compare that to 3.PF where a lvl 1 Wizard is weaksauce and a lvl 20 Wizard a threat to gods.

Quote:
Direct reply: everyone should be penalized

Direct Answer: no
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Krusk
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Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Posts: 498

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Trill, asking the gm to decide who roleplays good and who roleplays bad results in heavy bias everytime, and very quickly just becomes about blowjob skills. If you put the rules down on paper and give guidelines at least you can point to something and call the guy a cheater when he says you didnt use enough spit so you get a penalty.

Add that onto the idea that every gm ive ever met for real was terrible, except maybe 3-4 who were “ok”. And things get bad quickly.

Im sure your groups dont have that problem, and you are totally the exception.
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Trill
Journeyman


Joined: 26 May 2017
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Krusk wrote:
Im sure your groups dont have that problem, and you are totally the exception.

That may be it. I just don't see a good thing in the rules saying "you should roleplay this way and not that way", because that either leads to people trying to game it or it being ignored.
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Nath
Master


Joined: 28 Oct 2012
Posts: 191

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Trill wrote:
And again: Karma (the Experience points you get) =/= Karma (the concept of how good a person you are)
You can be the definition of a Saint and still have no Karma to spend, or the definition of a Monster and have tons of it to spend on stuff.

Actually, no. The concept of karma in eastern philosophies is ambivalent. Karma can be good or bad. The word just designates the action and its influence, whichever way it goes.

Shadowrun 1st, 2nd and 3rd editions called "good Karma" the Karma points you were spending on improving attributes and skills, learning spells and so on. That was the only definition of the term as far as the rules went. In 1st edition, Karma was good Karma when you decided to spend it that way. In 2nd and 3rd editions, 9/10th of all human Karma was good Karma and 19/20th of metahuman Karma was good Karma. Here ya go, moral imperative.

Besides, the other Karma points were not "bad Karma": it was "Instant Karma" or "Karma Pool" and was used to boost your roll. If instant ought to be the opposite of good, maybe we could have labelled them Darkside karma and Lightside karma instead.

Instant karma was functionally replaced by the Edge attribute in 4th and 5th editions, thus removing the need for the term "good Karma" who became the only Karma.

The 5th edition is the first to involve a seemingly moral component in Karma rewards (though it leaves entirely up to the GM to interpret what they meant by "cold-hearted bastard run" and "good feeling run").
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Trill
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Joined: 26 May 2017
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Nath wrote:
Actually, no. The concept of karma in eastern philosophies is ambivalent. Karma can be good or bad. The word just designates the action and its influence, whichever way it goes.

Huh. Guess you learn something new every day.

Quote:
The 5th edition is the first to involve a seemingly moral component in Karma rewards (though it leaves entirely up to the GM to interpret what they meant by "cold-hearted bastard run" and "good feeling run").

That and the fact that it only refers to the intended purpose of the run, not what you actually do there. While they are directed towards certain actions (they give extraction, espionage and expropriation as neutral runs; assassination, exploitation and slavery for puppy-kicking runs and hooding, helping the downtrodden and sticking it to the man as feel-good runs) you are still somewhat free to decide how to act on it. Maybe instead of assassinating the target you make it look like he did and help him escape. Maybe you stick it to the man by blowing up a factory, workers included. And with the neutral runs they may be both (maybe the extraction target is willing and the target corp is better. But maybe you're just bringing him into even deeper slavery to the corps)
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Longes
Prince


Joined: 04 Nov 2013
Posts: 2594

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Stahlseele, "two-handed weapon" is an undefined concept in Shadowrun. If you want to dual-wield polearms or gatling guns - the RAW doesn't stop you.
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Stahlseele
King


Joined: 14 Apr 2010
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Location: Hamburg, Germany

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think i remember a bit of text on Pole-Arms and Heavy Weapons, especially the PAC about that . . And in the advanced melee combat rules from the SR3 Gun-Book. But i am at work and have no access to nothing right now <.<

And then there is, of course, still common sense . .
If the trigger of a gun is not close enough to the handle of said gun, it has to be a 2 handed firearm . . And i wish to see you shoot an arrow from a bow with only one hand. And not using your feet or teeth either.
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Last edited by Stahlseele on Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Trill
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Joined: 26 May 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Stahlseele wrote:
And i wish to see you shoot an arrow from a bow with only one hand. And not using your feet or teeth either.

Does Mage Hands count?
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

See?
Even more reason why magic is OP! Sick
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Iduno
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Joined: 10 Feb 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I bought SR5 when it came out, because I make poor decisions. Then I read it and GMed a 4th edition game, because I'm capable of realizing when something is bad.

Am I wrong in thinking SR5 is SR4 with extra rules bolted on to "balance" things, and that they "fixed" the same problem 3 different ways (except magic and agility - meaning elves), nerfing everything other than magic and elves?

Edit: Also, you talk about how bad the people are who now control the game, and didn't mention the run to kill Jewish ghosts and steal the scalpel the Nazis used to cut up Jewish people during the holocaust? I mean, I would be surprised if you could name anything that is too terrible for at least one of the current devs to have done, but that's a hilariously terrible example.


Last edited by Iduno on Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Smirnoffico
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Joined: 30 Jun 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Iduno wrote:
Edit: Also, you talk about how bad the people are who now control the game, and didn't mention the run to kill Jewish ghosts and steal the scalpel the Nazis used to cut up Jewish people during the holocaust? I mean, I would be surprised if you could name anything that is too terrible for at least one of the current devs to have done, but that's a hilariously terrible example.

All in all, it's just one example of bad writing, it has nothing to do with Shadowrun in general
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Trill
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Joined: 26 May 2017
Posts: 132

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Iduno wrote:
Also, you talk about how bad the people are who now control the game, and didn't mention the run to kill Jewish ghosts and steal the scalpel the Nazis used to cut up Jewish people during the holocaust? I mean, I would be surprised if you could name anything that is too terrible for at least one of the current devs to have done, but that's a hilariously terrible example.


I think everyone willingly forgot that WAR! even existed.

PrometheanVigil: this is an example discussed late in the CGL Affair thread. A book so shitty that it defines shittiness
Highlights (or rather Lowlights):
A spell that can affect electronic systems and crack encryption.
A spell that slows down everything in its radius, and whose threshold is only dependent on the total mass of stuff in it.
A spell that's a movable cloud of your favorite elemental damage. Yes, you can make people take continuous Sound damage (which completely bypasses Armor)
A adept power that let's you use a mental attribute for a corresponding physical one. Push LOG to maximum and shoot like the best.
Thor Missiles for 1.2 mil. and Avail 45F, so go buy yourselves some.
Barrier Foam: 30¥ and you can make your own fortifications. Just spray it into a form no bigger than 1mx1mx10m, wait a CT and you have your own barrier harder than most walls. And the best part? Avail 7. This shit is easier to acquire than most weapons. And completely legal.
Retarded Vehicle armor rules: 20 DV against a naval cruiser? nothing happens. 21 DV? better learn to swim if you are not able.
A metaplot of Aztlan planting magical carnivorous trees on the border to Amazonia in order to enrage them. Keep in mind that
  • They planted them on their side of the border
  • Amazonia doesn't give a wet fart about the concerns of metahumans
  • the trees hinder Aztlan from raiding Amazonia
  • Amazonia love magic, trees and magical trees
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ScottS
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

But do they love tree magic?
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Nath
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Joined: 28 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Trill wrote:
A metaplot of Aztlan planting magical carnivorous trees on the border to Amazonia in order to enrage them. Keep in mind that
  • They planted them on their side of the border
  • Amazonia doesn't give a wet fart about the concerns of metahumans
  • the trees hinder Aztlan from raiding Amazonia
  • Amazonia love magic, trees and magical trees

There are many things that can be said about War!, but the "Look, carnivorous trees!!!" is an overblown one.

First, the book specifically mentions that those trees spread outside the Aztlan territory. A territory that, besides, the Amazoniens consider as lawfully their anyway. And the fact that the Amazonians could be pissed off by that particular type of tree is actually in line with FASA/Fanpro's Year of the Comet indication that the Sangre del Diablo was the result of Toxic corruption.

To be fair, it doesn't even try to be a metaplot. It's the given explanation for an increase in Amazonian-backed sabotage and terrorist attacks that took place... in 2063-2064, a decade ago in-game The fact the aztlans spread those trees is relevant to the game setting. The Amazonian reaction is not. It's just one event in a border conflict that started in the late 2040s. People are so used to those pointless historical chapters that they complain when half a page is silly, instead of complaining that that half-page is useless.

Now, you could also mention War! features a "magically enhanced sniper rifle", how it wrote "archeology" instead of "arcology" twice, or how they titled "Bogota Culture" a chapter that features 17 pages on political factions, half a page with a box on cultural festivals, and a larger box on rainforest survival tips.
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Wasn't there also something about a submarine and / or harbour in bogota somewhere?
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Iduno
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Stahlseele wrote:
Wasn't there also something about a submarine and / or harbour in bogota somewhere?


Also War!

The correct answer to the OPs question is probably "War! got published, got defended, and those incompetents/assholes are still in charge."
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Nath
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Stahlseele wrote:
Wasn't there also something about a submarine and / or harbour in bogota somewhere?
Iduno wrote:
Also War!

No. It was in the Deadly Waves PDF, page 18.
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