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I went with the default rules. We were already playing with a wet-erase battle map, which at least added some color, literally. It had a grid on it too, so it fit perfectly.The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:What did you end up going with?
We do that. In fact, we got rid of the 5' step. You get a move. You don't give up anything if you take your move.The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:I just had a dumb idea: what if disengaging from the enemy let you move half your movement instead of just 5 feet? That should facilitate moving around more, right?
I have shared them. If you'd like to see them, PM me.Foxwarrior wrote:deaddmwalking likes to describe his home game house rules without ever linking them.
My gaming group. It's a work in progress and has been for a decade, but it's a PLAYABLE work in progress. It shares a lot of DNA with 3.x, but there are also a lot of differences. One of the first things we did was change full-attack to be something that you're allowed to do with a move and to split those attacks in any order across your move. You can move 10 feet, make your two lowest attack bonus attacks, then move 20 more feet and make your best attack if you like. There are some other changes - we don't use -5/-10; all extra attacks are at the same penalty (-4).The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:May I ask who "we" is? Your group? The den? Are you a monarch and you're asserting majestic plurals over us?
Yeah, football (and by extension Bloodbowl) is about abstracting the chaos and competitiveness of battle. That could work. Although it's back to the issue with AOOs: it keeps people from moving around much, which is boring. You'd need a carrot to keep people interested in moving around.tussock wrote:Blood Bowl movement in D&D might work, you know.
Free trip on anyone who leaves your threatened area, with some sort of simple single-dice mechanic.that just ends their movement if the trip works. Not attacks, or maybe something modest associated with the falling down, just so avoiding folk is a risk with a downside.
The important bit being it ends your action to get tripped as you try to move, and players not usually have enough movement to go around a simple screen. Then if people try to move inside a reach weapon, you get that stop short thing as the default.
But then do amorphous creatures and snakes just go wherever they want? Because I suspect yes is the right answer there. Can I roll through to avoid the trip? That's what tumble skill is, yes. Hmm.
Ahh yeah you mentioned you've played thousands of games of bloodbowl beforetussock wrote:Blood Bowl movement in D&D might work, you know.
Free trip on anyone who leaves your threatened area, with some sort of simple single-dice mechanic.that just ends their movement if the trip works. Not attacks, or maybe something modest associated with the falling down, just so avoiding folk is a risk with a downside.
The important bit being it ends your action to get tripped as you try to move, and players not usually have enough movement to go around a simple screen. Then if people try to move inside a reach weapon, you get that stop short thing as the default.
But then do amorphous creatures and snakes just go wherever they want? Because I suspect yes is the right answer there. Can I roll through to avoid the trip? That's what tumble skill is, yes. Hmm.
I like this as well. I have been looking a bit at PF2's changes, where they give an extra action (a 2nd move, maybe?) and removed most AoOs... Which are a major disincentive to backing away if you are threatened with an attack.tussock wrote:OK. So. I think this is the basics that can work. NB: Very pro-melee, because I'm very pro-melee.
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What's this doing?
Bloodbowl is a game of manipulating tackle zones. Pushing, tripping, or harming opponents enough, and placing yourself as you do it so you're not in the way of team-mates, or are supporting them. Ideally so you can move the ball forward, or so you can go get the ball off the other team.
D&D combat is about terminating your opponents while limiting their ability to harm the party, mostly by terminating them more quickly. This is also how Dwarfs and Khemri play Bloodbowl because they can't make even simple dodges anything like reliably.
This attempts to add some BB positioning troubles to a D&D-like game.
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Positioning tho?
Um, I think the fun bit about bloodbowl is you normally just push people around and you have to make that work for you. Sometimes they fall over or even die, but that's not reliable and trying to rely on it brings sadness. So if you can push folks around as part of doing your normal melee (even touch spells), in D&D, that's at least an upgrade to Dorf/Khemri style bloodbowl.
If elves and haflings can dodge well, and they should, first thing is penalise dodging into a different TZ, or moving through the same, compared to dodging out. Every opponent you step next to should be a penalty if you're already in a TZ. Then you've got caging, you can protect vulnerable people even on an open plain by mostly surrounding them, or forming a separated screen even better to force multiple dodges.
Who are you protecting when there's no ball?
Well, how about you can't cast spells or used ranged weapons in melee. At all. There's no roll to use a spell in melee, but there is a roll to dodge out of melee and then you can use a spell, but push a caster against the wall, and now he's double dodging at least, or resorting to his crappy melee skill again.
Now we've got targets you want to get close to, reasons to push them, reasons to be in the way of that and so on. That activates the mechanics.
Say flying creatures can't push and don't have a TZ, so everything wants to land and let you melee it to block your spells and missile attacks, which is good. Flying missile and magic users should face penalties commensurate with the chances of failing a dodge, so like -4 to hit or +4 to saves, so that if there's a safe place to land, they will. Dodging up is valid for flyers, but failing means they just crash down and end their turn.
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Mechanics pls
So, most melee attacks should come with a 1-square push, once per target, with a free follow allowed if you focus all attacks on one target, and dodging should be both what some players normally want to start their action with if caught in melee (or wait for an ally to push them free), and also penalised by dodging into other TZs. Wizards and Archers should take "Dodge" and "Side Step" and "Fend" type feats, and Fighters and Barbarians should take "Grab" and "Stand Firm" and "Juggernaut" type feats. Or just have those as class features or whatever. "Frenzy" to push the same target twice, but you must focus attacks and always follow.
It might end up a bit simplistic if the push was automatic, but I wouldn't really want another die roll either. Could just look at the die directly, so any 6+ die roll is a push (10+/14+/18+ vs larger, 4+/2+/always vs smaller, if that's memorable enough to be automatic).
How big of a thing can you push? Ideally, much bigger things can't be pushed, but are also easier to dodge. To some extent TZs should only work for creatures of somewhat similar size so a couple mice can't stop you casting, but also very big dragons don't care about your pet Fighter so much, unless you giant-size said Fighter.
The actual dodge mechanic should be active player rolling it, makes sense when it's often at the start of their turn and you want to let them roll dice should they fail it. Need tested a bit, assuming mostly Dex 14, but something like a Dex check for dodging at DC 9, +3 per TZ, -3 per size diff you're dodging away from, rather than a skill, but you can also Tumble and burn the extra movement for safety. "Dodge" feat lets you re-roll it on a fail once per turn, and so does a team action point, or hehehe, I'll stop now don't need to convert the entire game.
Then everyone is involved in either manipulating the TZs to let other people dodge easier or not have to dodge at all, but you also want to be on the ground in people's TZ and forcing them to dodge to limit their ability to kill your team with ranged attacks and spells, while also stopping opponents easily getting at your casters.
Should probably also add the concept of assists, so aid another is just fucking automatic if you're adjacent to only one foe. With "Guard", maybe Fighter feat, or maybe combat feat but fighters get free some time, you aid everything against all adjacent foes. It's like marking and giving others +2 to hit, but always on for everyone if positioned right.
Oh, and pushing someone into a wall they're already up against, that should do something! So you don't always have to put lava and spiked pits everywhere. But only if you're opposite the wall from your target, so it's not casually automatic in corridors. Nice to have an effect there that didn't auto-splatter stuff at low level but also worth remembering later, hmm. Something always relevant might be a stun, or slow? Probably not fair to stun lock, but slow for being pinned against a wall seems expected.
So 5' step still works, right?
Only to close and melee with actors who've attacked you through superior reach. You get to fight back in melee just fine, because not everyone wants to use pikes. Style rule, everything else is a dodge.
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Should be team-play oriented without requiring team turns. I think it needs to allow easy pushes on a charge, but probably only one square between each target's action so you can't just arbitrarily push critters a long way by taking turns to charge it.
I think that gives you basic blood bowl reminiscent movement system.
Actors who desperately want to be in contact with actors who desperately want to be not in contact, but also everyone prefers to be on the ground where this happens even at flying levels, and everyone can engage with the basic mechanics without spending feats and shit.
I guess if you want to touch on how summoned and charmed monsters are better than fighters, maybe none of that shit can push or assist. Charmed, confused, or summoned all just don't get any of those effects. Makes them all a bit easier to fight, but that's fine.
tussock wrote:OK. So. I think this is the basics that can work. NB: Very pro-melee, because I'm very pro-melee.
--
What's this doing?
Bloodbowl is a game of manipulating tackle zones. Pushing, tripping, or harming opponents enough, and placing yourself as you do it so you're not in the way of team-mates, or are supporting them. Ideally so you can move the ball forward, or so you can go get the ball off the other team.
D&D combat is about terminating your opponents while limiting their ability to harm the party, mostly by terminating them more quickly. This is also how Dwarfs and Khemri play Bloodbowl because they can't make even simple dodges anything like reliably.
This attempts to add some BB positioning troubles to a D&D-like game.
--
Positioning tho?
Um, I think the fun bit about bloodbowl is you normally just push people around and you have to make that work for you. Sometimes they fall over or even die, but that's not reliable and trying to rely on it brings sadness. So if you can push folks around as part of doing your normal melee (even touch spells), in D&D, that's at least an upgrade to Dorf/Khemri style bloodbowl.
If elves and haflings can dodge well, and they should, first thing is penalise dodging into a different TZ, or moving through the same, compared to dodging out. Every opponent you step next to should be a penalty if you're already in a TZ. Then you've got caging, you can protect vulnerable people even on an open plain by mostly surrounding them, or forming a separated screen even better to force multiple dodges.
Who are you protecting when there's no ball?
Well, how about you can't cast spells or used ranged weapons in melee. At all. There's no roll to use a spell in melee, but there is a roll to dodge out of melee and then you can use a spell, but push a caster against the wall, and now he's double dodging at least, or resorting to his crappy melee skill again.
Now we've got targets you want to get close to, reasons to push them, reasons to be in the way of that and so on. That activates the mechanics.
Say flying creatures can't push and don't have a TZ, so everything wants to land and let you melee it to block your spells and missile attacks, which is good. Flying missile and magic users should face penalties commensurate with the chances of failing a dodge, so like -4 to hit or +4 to saves, so that if there's a safe place to land, they will. Dodging up is valid for flyers, but failing means they just crash down and end their turn.
--
Mechanics pls
So, most melee attacks should come with a 1-square push, once per target, with a free follow allowed if you focus all attacks on one target, and dodging should be both what some players normally want to start their action with if caught in melee (or wait for an ally to push them free), and also penalised by dodging into other TZs. Wizards and Archers should take "Dodge" and "Side Step" and "Fend" type feats, and Fighters and Barbarians should take "Grab" and "Stand Firm" and "Juggernaut" type feats. Or just have those as class features or whatever. "Frenzy" to push the same target twice, but you must focus attacks and always follow.
It might end up a bit simplistic if the push was automatic, but I wouldn't really want another die roll either. Could just look at the die directly, so any 6+ die roll is a push (10+/14+/18+ vs larger, 4+/2+/always vs smaller, if that's memorable enough to be automatic).
How big of a thing can you push? Ideally, much bigger things can't be pushed, but are also easier to dodge. To some extent TZs should only work for creatures of somewhat similar size so a couple mice can't stop you casting, but also very big dragons don't care about your pet Fighter so much, unless you giant-size said Fighter.
The actual dodge mechanic should be active player rolling it, makes sense when it's often at the start of their turn and you want to let them roll dice should they fail it. Need tested a bit, assuming mostly Dex 14, but something like a Dex check for dodging at DC 9, +3 per TZ, -3 per size diff you're dodging away from, rather than a skill, but you can also Tumble and burn the extra movement for safety. "Dodge" feat lets you re-roll it on a fail once per turn, and so does a team action point, or hehehe, I'll stop now don't need to convert the entire game.
Then everyone is involved in either manipulating the TZs to let other people dodge easier or not have to dodge at all, but you also want to be on the ground in people's TZ and forcing them to dodge to limit their ability to kill your team with ranged attacks and spells, while also stopping opponents easily getting at your casters.
Should probably also add the concept of assists, so aid another is just fucking automatic if you're adjacent to only one foe. With "Guard", maybe Fighter feat, or maybe combat feat but fighters get free some time, you aid everything against all adjacent foes. It's like marking and giving others +2 to hit, but always on for everyone if positioned right.
Oh, and pushing someone into a wall they're already up against, that should do something! So you don't always have to put lava and spiked pits everywhere. But only if you're opposite the wall from your target, so it's not casually automatic in corridors. Nice to have an effect there that didn't auto-splatter stuff at low level but also worth remembering later, hmm. Something always relevant might be a stun, or slow? Probably not fair to stun lock, but slow for being pinned against a wall seems expected.
So 5' step still works, right?
Only to close and melee with actors who've attacked you through superior reach. You get to fight back in melee just fine, because not everyone wants to use pikes. Style rule, everything else is a dodge.
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Should be team-play oriented without requiring team turns. I think it needs to allow easy pushes on a charge, but probably only one square between each target's action so you can't just arbitrarily push critters a long way by taking turns to charge it.
I think that gives you basic blood bowl reminiscent movement system.
Actors who desperately want to be in contact with actors who desperately want to be not in contact, but also everyone prefers to be on the ground where this happens even at flying levels, and everyone can engage with the basic mechanics without spending feats and shit.
I guess if you want to touch on how summoned and charmed monsters are better than fighters, maybe none of that shit can push or assist. Charmed, confused, or summoned all just don't get any of those effects. Makes them all a bit easier to fight, but that's fine.
You might want to make this only happen on a successful hit that exceeds the target's damage threshold. Partly because Star Wars weapons do not send people flying back on every hit, Sequel Trilogy retcons aside, but mostly because lots of automatic pushing does screwy things in a setting full of railing-less bridges and repulsorcraft. Limiting it to threshold-exceeding attacks let PCs toss mooks around pretty easily, but would ensure that a squad of stormtroopers can't send a given PC flying with a single volley.Heaven's Thunder Hammer wrote:1. Successfully hitting an opponent moves them back 1 square. If the attacker has remaining attacks, they can follow and hit again.
Keep in mind that moves can be traded down to swifts, so this doesn't just make people more mobile, it also lets them do three swifts plus a standard/move in one turn instead of two swifts plus a standard/move, which can enable things like Nobles stacking a bunch of swift-action buffing talents in the first round or Soldiers being able to aim+attack+move every round.5. I am considering giving all characters 2 move actions per round. This lets them move in to attack, and then a "disengage" move back for defense, if they want.
Movement provoking AoOs is basically the only way melee-focused characters can control territory, and while removing that does let things be more mobile it probably swings the pendulum too far in the other direction, since now e.g. an entire squad of stormtroopers can walk past a Jedi to get to his allies and there's nothing he can do about it.6. Moving out of a threatened square does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Perhaps charging does provoke an AoO?
This doesn't feel right to me. In sport fencing, at least, space behind you is a resource that you use up to evade attacks rather than parrying them directly. Star Wars fight choreography tends to keep tight spacing longer than it would last in a real fight without somebody slipping up and losing a limb, but backing up still tends to be voluntary for the defender rather than an actual "I hit you so hard you're pushed back" thing. My preference would be to have defenders give ground as a choice (maybe rewarded with a defensive bonus rather than having attackers push them as a rider on the attack. That can also incentivize the circular motion you see in the films when there's a lull in the fight, since moving laterally can open up more space to retreat into rather than being forced into a wall.1. Successfully hitting an opponent moves them back 1 square. If the attacker has remaining attacks, they can follow and hit again.
Over-complication. Its too many rules for something that will be done very often. Players and DMs will forget that many rules.Heaven's Thunder Hammer wrote:What issues may arise with these adjustments?
