Mandatory Movement in a D20 Game?

[Stubbazubba]

Sorry, promised not to post anymore but saw this thread and I just can't help how people missed a very important little fact:

The 5 feet by 5 feet square is NOT small at all.
...
However, a lot of players and modern designers wrongly visualize "adjacent" squares or hexes as having the units being in literal contact. In reality there's plenty of space for some acrobatic maneuvers.

Eh, it's not tiny, but adjacent squares doesn't give you much breathing room.

[zeruslord]

With longswords, the only way you get to the starting distance in a normal bout is if somebody's halfway through an attack

[Zinegata]

Eh, it's not tiny, but adjacent squares doesn't give you much breathing room.

Yep, but compare it with the actual fight scenes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40HhaIJ0QVw

The Obi Wan vs Anakin duel is basically the two of them being in adjacent 5x5 squares for most of the battle, with Obi Wan generally giving up a square with every attack, while Anakin follows.

There actually isn't as much maneuvering. It just seems that way because of the attack-advance cycle, and the enormous number of attacks Anakin dishes out.

And when there is a major maneuver involving multiple squares, I'd suggest that a lot of those involved the use of the Force (e.g. Force Push or flips).

[OgreBattle]

If you want to emulate George Lucas film combat then perhaps going for more abstract zones that have terrain features to interact with like "high ground" "lava" "pit" would work smoother as those movies focus more on the outcome than the individual moves leading to them.


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If you want to emulate 'realistic sword combat' then the five x five grid works. Consider how distance affects techniques like...

The Approach
Blades not touching, swordsmen have to step to attack each other. Moving backwards is a good way to dodge most attacks here, lunges happen here.

The Bind
Blade to blade contact like in that post with the guys next to each other. This is where you end up after someone makes an Approach. From here is where quick attacks to different openings (Left-Right High-Low) happen. Fighters can push further into grappling, or withdraw back to Approach range.

Grappling: A fighter or both decide to pressure in, attempting disarms, throws, knockdowns, pommel bashing, dagger drawing.

Withdraw: A fighter or both decide to withdraw, often with a horizontal sweep or extended thrust to cover their openings.




How someone REACTS to an attack is mega important, so you'd need to break away from D&D's system of static standing until it's your turn.

[Zinegata]

How someone REACTS to an attack is mega important, so you'd need to break away from D&D's system of static standing until it's your turn.

Yes in real combat, but actually forcing players to make decisions about that in every combat round introduces a whole bunch of complications. For instance - who declares first: An attacker's charge, or a defensive side-step? Or do you reveal actions simultaneously via facedown cards that are revealed at the same time?

That's why these are abstracted in a lot of games as something like a dodge bonus to AC. Their training is what lets them dodge automatically and get the bonus.

I would suggest that if the game is centered around 1 vs 1 duels - ala Ghost of Tsushima's Samurai duels or a fighting game like Yomi - then you can have this more complex and nuanced reaction system with player decisions. Indeed you should probably include this complexity or else a one vs one fight will seem pretty boring.

But in most multiplayer RPGs where you have multiple players fighting multiple enemies, you have to abstract this a bit or it will lengthen playtime considerably.

In any case, I'm glad to see multiple people actually showing real-world sword fighting techniques and examples. This may be a system for fantasy space wizards with laser swords, but you tend to get a much better understanding of how a cinematic sword fight works when you look at fencing, HEMA, Kendo, and other real martial arts examples.

[JigokuBosatsu]

Eh, it's not tiny, but adjacent squares doesn't give you much breathing room.

Don't forget to enable the "Karl Urban gives you the finger" plugin while you're on imgur. Very motivating!

[OgreBattle]

Yes in real combat, but actually forcing players to make decisions about that in every combat round introduces a whole bunch of complications. For instance - who declares first: An attacker's charge, or a defensive side-step? Or do you reveal actions simultaneously via facedown cards that are revealed at the same time?
.

In Dreadball the two reactions a model can take are to strike back, or dodge. I forget if there's a reaction limit or if you can keep on reacting.

Another idea... the reacting character, if they haven't taken their turn yet, get their turn's actions as a reaction so they can full defense and if they survived attempt to withdraw, or strike back. So Reactions and Actions are the same thing, when you engage someone you are basically making their turn come up after yours.

[Zinegata]

Yes in real combat, but actually forcing players to make decisions about that in every combat round introduces a whole bunch of complications. For instance - who declares first: An attacker's charge, or a defensive side-step? Or do you reveal actions simultaneously via facedown cards that are revealed at the same time?
.

In Dreadball the two reactions a model can take are to strike back, or dodge. I forget if there's a reaction limit or if you can keep on reacting.

Another idea... the reacting character, if they haven't taken their turn yet, get their turn's actions as a reaction so they can full defense and if they survived attempt to withdraw, or strike back. So Reactions and Actions are the same thing, when you engage someone you are basically making their turn come up after yours.

Yep, but the OP here is proposing at least six different action / reactions. This is what I'm cautioning against. Its a bit too many.

Dreadball's about as complicated as you can get; and it's a good example of how you can add relatively simple action / reaction mechanics in a team game without slowing it down too much.

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

Great Discussion Guys! Lots to think on here, and adding the realism from HEMA is super cool.

Updates:

1. Successfully critical hits, or exceed an opponents damage threshold moves them back 1 square. If the attacker has remaining attacks, they can follow and hit again. [Edit: Bantha Rush is a Core Rulebook feat that allows pushing someone back after a successful melee attack. Improved Bantha Rush from Force Unleashed upgrades this to pushing people back even more.]

2. Ending a turn next to an opponent gives them a bonus to attack and a penalty to your defense. Mechanically we just might say a +2 to hit and a -2 to AC = +4 to hit

3. Stepping back 5ft negates this bonus to hit.

4. Moving back more than 5ft gives a +4 to A.C., but opens one up to a charge.

5. All characters can take a "withdraw" Move action (SWSE 153) in addition to their regular combat actions. If they used a full attack, they can only take a 5 foot step.

Again, this is for a SINGLE player game and as mentioned, could very well fall apart with a bigger party.

[Zinegata]

Great Discussion Guys! Lots to think on here, and adding the realism from HEMA is super cool.

Updates:

1. Successfully critical hits, or exceed an opponents damage threshold moves them back 1 square. If the attacker has remaining attacks, they can follow and hit again.

2. Ending a turn next to an opponent gives them a bonus to attack and a penalty to your defense. Mechanically we just might say a +2 to hit and a -2 to AC = +4 to hit

3. Stepping back 5ft negates this bonus to hit.

4. Moving back more than 5ft gives a +4 to A.C., but opens one up to a charge.

5. All characters can take a "withdraw" Move action (SWSE 153) in addition to their regular combat actions. If they used a full attack, they can only take a 5 foot step.

Again, this is for a SINGLE player game and as mentioned, could very well fall apart with a bigger party.

If it's single player then definitely consider a simultaneous action reveal mechanic like Yomi rather relying on traditional you-go-I-go initiative. In that game both players select their actions from a set of cards, place them face down, and reveal simultaneously. Then you resolve.

Lots of games do this for one v one fights as it adds an element of tension and bluffing in the game. E.g. - Do I dodge because I think my opponent will go all-out? Or is my opponent actually not planning to go all-out and he WANTS me to dodge so I end up out of position?

Reason why one v one games generally just don't adapt RPG party combat rules is because it does, to an extent, turn into a dice-fest where players just keep hoping they roll higher than their opponent.

[OgreBattle]

How many rounds do you expect a typical to boss fight to be? Is a hero against a horde of gobbos also on the table?

I think the "move away and get an AC bonus" will have odd edge cases like if something else causes forced movement or another guy shows up.

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

I'm going to try it out for a couple weeks and report back.

[Zinegata]

I'm going to try it out for a couple weeks and report back.

A playtesting suggestion:

Take note of how many times each "move" was actually used in the encounter.

It'll tell you which of the moves you created are actually more understandable / compelling.

Very often in testing, you'll find that you created a bunch of options, but the players will only stick with one or two.

[OgreBattle]

On the 'feel' of a 'real cool moving around sword fight' we can talk about real world concepts of "tempo" and "measure"/"Distance"

Some articles I looked at today:
https://www.fencing.net/455/its-all-about-tempo/
http://www.rapier-fight.com/PART_V_DIST ... ASURE.html

"The concepts of Distance and Measure are interchangeable. The more historical version is referred to as Measure. It means how far one is from the opponent. Roughly, Measure is judged in how long it takes to get to hit the opponent, in a tempo, not necessarily a fixed distance. For example if you could launch a lunge that covered a long distance and it was so fast that the opponent can do nothing more than parry it, the opponent would be in your measure. If you had to take two long steps to get there (two tempos), and the opponent had plenty of time to do something else, you are out of measure. Measure and tempo are intertwined. An alternative viewpoint may be that you can consider Measure a component of tempo and base your measure off of the tempo to act within it.

Further, it is a common mistake to think that your length of arm, or sword, or where you have your sword determine the measure. It does not. Your foot placement determines measure. This may be a difficult concept, but consider that you can play illusions with measure by couching the sword way back, and to be sure the arm and sword come into play. It is rather the capacity to cover distance with the footwork that is the true determinant of measure. Not matter how hard you may try with an extension of a lunge, or a timed hit, if your feet are not close enough to support the action, your measure will be off.

While Saviolo does not have any hard fast rules for what measure is, other that one is in or out of it, it is useful in the SCA fight to have some descriptions of measure. This is mainly to help a fencer establish when they are in danger and how much time it might take to react to it. SCA fighting is a game of inches, since we seek to not over strike an opponent and cause excessive harm, we have to be slightly more concerned therefore of our measure.


Close Measure The closest measure is when you can extend your hand and grasp the opponent;s hilt or body. This is the measure in which dagger fights, or hand to hand occur. It can be referred to as Close Measure. This is half tempo distance.

Middle Measure The measure in which you can extend the sword in a single tempo with a short step and make a touch is referred to as Middle Measure. The English master Silver may have preferred this distance.

Long Measure The measure in which you can make a touch with a long step and extension, done in a tempo and a half is a Long Measure.
"

So in a game emphasizing movement, it's not just getting to the highground or a shove into lava, but also cutting into each other's measure/tempo such as having their attack fall short and launching your attack with a step as they are flat footed.

This 'flavor' can be implemented into turn based mechanics in various ways, but it's cool flavor to keep in mind.

Airplane and starfighter dog fighting games kinda feel like a duel of tempo/measure to land a hit with the hidden movement/turning and reveals to see who's in ideal range for their weapon.

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

Small update here:

We've done a couple big combats since the last post. Overall, I'm sure how I've implemented this could be abused more by a munchkin, but my 12 year old son doesn't have that skill level yet. The extra withdraw move action adds a lot of "flow" to the battle and gives everyone a chance to move in and out more - definitely felt a lot more cinematic and fun.

I would recommend it for other groups, just take into account your group's skill level at abusing d20 mechanics.

[OgreBattle]

was just thinking, because movement influences attack modifiers, having emotion or 'magic compulsion' effects that force movement (hate, fear) is now a noticeable thing in your game

[JigokuBosatsu]

Are the Tempo/Measure bits restricted to swords and daggers? How do halberds and spiked chains fit in either way?

[OgreBattle]

Are the Tempo/Measure bits restricted to swords and daggers? How do halberds and spiked chains fit in either way?

The principles apply. Tempo = time to finish an action so a long halberd that has just swung may take longer to recover but it can then strike with the butt end too. Spiked chain, flails require wind up to have it spin. Same principles apply.

If you've played fighting games before, or stomped a goomba in mario, then these Fighting Game Basics guide can help.
How long it takes a character to recover from an action is pretty much tempo:
https://inthirdperson.com/2012/04/18/un ... rame-data/

Distance between character and target, range and angle of moves character can use, is pretty much measure:
https://inthirdperson.com/2013/10/17/un ... anagement/