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Give me 5e, broken over thine knee!
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codeGlaze
Duke


Joined: 05 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:43 pm    Post subject: Give me 5e, broken over thine knee! Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'd really just like this to be a reference topic, so please keep the posts to examples and corrections only. Smile

I would be appreciative if those of you who have pointed out hilariously bad breaks, combos, scenarios and other fails to re-post them here in a concise format so I may sooth myself with tears of laughter. As well as refer back to them... or even copy them to for safe keeping... so I may stroke them as I fall asleep each night.
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nockermensch wrote:
Advantage will lead to dicepools in D&D. Remember, you read this here first!


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infected slut princess
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think hiding behind a locked door pretty much breaks the game. Defeats most enemies..
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codeGlaze
Duke


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Found a couple highlights I was looking for.

FrankTrollman wrote:
Dean wrote:
I think it's fair to include as a highlight that the game appears playable. Literally everything that has been said so far is true but I have been extremely impressed with how tolerable a product they have created. It's not good but it's completely passable and for Mike Mearls making something passable is a slam fucking dunk. I am, in all sincerity, extremely impressed with the mediocrity that 5e has achieved.


The thing is that while the core game is a kind of stupid "ask the DM if you can do something, and if he says yes, you can roll a d20" non-system, I don't see how it scales up at all. The AC munchkin that Voss talked about can bulldozer low level crap, but even the small dragon from the first adventure has a +15 attack bonus, and hits that AC of 22 on a 7+. Even at 1st level, a pile of Hobgoblins can just randomly blow up your party in two rounds with some good rolls, and the complete failure of the whole "bounded accuracy" thing means that boss monsters rapidly break the RNG and red mist anything that gets into their reach.

And the lack of scaling is kind of worse in the non-combat portions. Once you hit the stat max and get a proficiency bonus, that's it. You're never going to kick down an iron door or climb a wall of ice, because the maximum bonuses on these tasks are basically available to 1st level mundane characters.

5e is a 1st level D&D simulator, and not a terribly good one. It doesn't even attempt to simulate 5th level D&D or 15th level D&D.

-Frank


Voss wrote:
Covent wrote:
CapnTthePirateG wrote:
Covent, there's one point I need to raise.

We know for certain that the monsters are all going to run on special snowflake Exception-Based-Design logic, because it's Mearls and what he showed us in the playtests. So the analysis of fighters not being able to murder each other in a reasonable amount of time doesn't matter because you aren't supposed to use PC classes to generate enemies, you're supposed to do one of Mearl's half-assed NPC-PC abominations.


*nod*

From what I have read this seems to be correct, however I have no solid data as the monster manual is not available.

I just find it unlikely that a level appropriate threat will have lower defenses and a smaller HP pool than a Level X PC. From the very limited amount I have seen of monsters the monsters seem to have higher not lower defenses and HP.

They also seem to have offenses as good or better than a PC's.


Uh... No.
http://diehardgamefan.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/IMG_1137.jpg

Going by the encounter builder table they put up sometime back (that acts a vague guideline with a lot of holes)
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20140707

a level 1 party should deal with an xp budget of 50 for a 'moderate' encounter , or 100 for a challenging encounter.

The hobgoblin, way, way back on page 23 of this thread, is a 100 xp for exactly 1. Thats right: a level 1 party of 4 PCs (or 5, not sure what their default assumption is) should face exactly 1 hobgoblin for a challenging fight. 2 hobgoblins is beyond the scope of anything a level 1 party should ever face (seriously, hard is 150 xp),

A 'better' (or rather, let us say 'expected') challenging encounter for a level 1 party is seriously 4 cultists (from that link). Who are AC 12, 9 hp, and attack at +3 for 1d6+1 damage (melee only). Which is to say using point buy or array, hit on 7+ (70%) , often one shot kill, and only hit a reasonably armored adventurer 25% of the time. Maybe 40-45% for wizards/rogues.

Now, this tells me their encounter design is fucked in the head from the start, since 1 hobgob isn't even vaguely a challenge for a party (though getting the hit will be annoying), but the actual level 1 challenging fights by the table are fucking jokes.

And just looking over the link again, the hobgoblins AC of 18 once again stands out as severely abnormal. But they're seriously thinking that 4 hobgoblins constitute a challenging fight for a level 5 party, and a single fireball just ends it. Bash

I don't even know what to tell you. The evil mage is supposedly a very hard fight for a level 2 party (if he has a single commoner attached), but the most he can do is hold person, or strip off hit points with magic missile. But he's mostly a level 4 wizard, but uses different hit dice, but ends up with roughly the same number of hit points as a decently built level 4 PC (8+3d6+6).
But again, from a monster design perspective its a joke, since the fighter archer build seriously hits him on a 5+, and drops probably 15 points of damage on him turn 1. (+7 to hit vs AC fucking 12, action surge for two attacks). So realistically he's a trap monster that will strip off ~10 hp each time he gets an action, and depending on how the initiative dice fall, that should be once or even never. The best it can do is magic missile, move, and bonus action: misty step for a 30' teleport and lead the party into another encounter because as designed, the evil mage does jackshit.

And going back to the idea that monsters have better numbers, lets look at the doppelgänger. AC 14, 52 hp, 2 attacks at +6 for 7 each. And surprise attack for a bonus +10 damage on the first round of combat, if it surprises. Now, this is worded differently from sneak attack (or course), so I think the assumption is it can get this bonus damage for both attacks, assuming surprising and hitting. But realistically, after the first round, this guy has +3 to hit and damage over those fucking cultists which are 25 xp compared to 700. Which, by the table is... seriously something the party shouldn't be facing at all until level 6. At which point, even without magic weapons, the great sword fighter says 'Attack! Extra attack! Action surge: bonus attack!' and rolls at +8 (fighter, so 2 stat ups already at level 6, so 20 str), hitting on 6+, so good odds for somewhere around 36 damage. At which point another party member pokes it with something and it falls over dead. And once again, this was 700 xp out of a 750 xp 'hard' encounter for a level 6 party which is effectively soloed by one guy in a single round.

The encounter design is fucking horrible toliet paper, where the main purpose (if there is any at all) is for the fucking monsters to jump you and strip off a chunk of healing. (Which comes out of each players hit die budget, mundane potions of healing, and then cleric spells or channel divinity (the latter of which recharges on short rests, so it isn't even a real cost, though it is often worthless since it can only heal someone to half-hp).


Also, unrelated bonus stupid:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/news/morningstar
DDI... attempt #2.

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Advantage will lead to dicepools in D&D. Remember, you read this here first!
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pragma
Journeyman


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Conjure Woodland Beings is a 4th level spell that allows you to conjure 8 pixies. All of whom can cast the 4th level confusion, 4th level polymorph, dispel magic, sleep, and have innate superior invisibility.

Not as broken, but thoroughly ridiculous: Polearm master lets you use a quarterstaff to receive its benefits. Quarterstaves can be used one handed because of the versatile property. So every fighter should go quarterstaff and shield for an extra attack at level 1.
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Lago PARANOIA
Invincible Overlord


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

No one cares about breaking 5E D&D because the level at which high-level challenges aren't much of a challenge to you is still a level at which you can get your shit handed to you by a grip of low-level mobs -- unless you're using Batman Wizard tricks, of course. Even in 4E D&D, min-maxing to the hilt doesn't let you punch 10 levels above your weight class. Nor does failing to min-max still leave you super-vulnerable to creatures 10 levels below you. In 5E D&D, even if you play something cheesy like an archer bard you still get your shit handed to you by a bunch of hobgoblins and intellect devourers. Again, unless you're using Batman Wizard tricks, whereupon you don't really care about the efficacy of the opposition because you're a Batman Wizard.

As pragma showed, there's not much room between 'effective enough for people to notice and talk about above and beyond standard builds' and 'completely overpowers the game'. If you can't create characters that exist in this continuum, which 5E D&D really can't, then there's just no point in optimization. It's like trying to optimize a 3rd-level 2E D&D thief who only has access to the core books. Or like trying to optimize a 3.0E Spelldancer.
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Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.


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ishy
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So I came across a thread about bounded accuracy, anyone know if this works / anyway to improve on it?
This does include buffs from other players.

Armour Class: Barbarian / battlemaster fighter
30 Dex and 30 Con: AC = 30
Shield +3: +5 AC
Defender Weapon: +3 AC
Defender Fighting Style: +1 AC
Ring of Protection: +1 AC
Cloak of Protection +1 AC
Blessing of Protection: +1 AC
Shield of Faith: +2 AC
Haste: +2 AC
Combat Inspiration: +12 AC
Evasive Footwork: +12 AC
Warforged Race: +1 AC

To hit Armour Class 0: Devotion Paladin/Battlemaster Fighter
Dexterity 30: +10
Proficiency Bonus: +6 Hit
Ioun Stone of Mastery: +1 Hit
Archery Combat Style: +2 Hit
Battle Inspiration: +12 Hit
Precision Attack: +12 Hit
Channel Divinity: War Domain: +10 Hit
Bless: +4 Hit
Arrow +3: +3 Hit
Bow +3: +3 Hit
Bend Luck: +4 Hit
Precision Attack+ 12 Hit
Sacred Weapon: +10 Hit
Epic Boon: Peerless Aim: +20
Epic Boon: Boon of Luck: +10
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FatR
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Anything that gives you minions seems to be the tits, thanks to bounded accuracy and lack of abilities that cut off low damage. For example necromancer spamming Animate Dead to maintain a squad of (IIRC) 8 sceleton archers at 5th level, more later.
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codeGlaze
Duke


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's damn near impossible to roll a 1 as a halfling.

DnD 5e PHB wrote:
Lucky. When you roll a 1 on an attack roll, ability
check, or saving throw, you can reroll the die and must
use the new roll.

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Dean
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A 9th level Necromancer has all 3 of my favorite gamebusters online at once. They are...

Animate Dead: It's been well covered that as long as a Necromancer knows he's adventuring tomorrow he can wander around with like 50 Skeleton Archers and, spoiler, he is always adventuring tomorrow.

Contagion: Contagion is the strongest Save or Lose in the game and on par with many of the strongest save or loses in any edition. 5E Wizards are basically Tonberries from Final Fantasy, if they touch you you die.
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Animate Objects: This spell may be a better demonstration of the failures of Bound Accuracy than even Animate Dead. Nothing beats Animate Dead's long term minion creation ability but it takes a minute to cast and sometimes you want a dozen friends right now. Animate objects lets you animate 8 unattended objects with medium or larger objects counting as 2, 4, or 8 objects apiece. So you can make 8 small things or 1 huge one but the actual answer is to willingly use tiny objects because their AC and attack scores are better and thus are just fucking better. If your 9th level Necromancer walks into combat with 50 Skeleton Archers he can also spend his first action dropping 8 shurikens on the ground to add 8 extra flying minions to the fight who each have a +8 attack for 1d4+4 damage. Since there is no DR in 5E there is literally no reason not to make the smallest objects you can because that nets you the most damage. If you cast Animate Objects twice and made 1 Huge 30 foot golem fight the 8 darts you made with your second casting the golem would be torn to shreds.
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DSMatticus
Prince


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Animate objects actually gives you 10 tiny/small objects, with each medium, large, or huge object counting as 2, 4, and 8 respectively. So 8 tiny vs 1 huge is a useful comparison because they're equal costs, but you actually get 10 tiny or 1 huge + 1 medium or whatever.

So yeah, a tiny object has 20 HP, 18 AC, and +8 to hit for 6.5 average damage. A huge object has 80 HP, 10 AC, and +8 to hit for 17 average damage. You should note immediately that 20*8 = 160 and that 6.5*8 = 52; not only do the tiny objects have equal to hit and better AC, their combined hitpoints and damage output add up to more than anything the huge object can bring to the table. It will take 13 attacks for the tinies to kill the huge not counting any bullshit like flanking. Meanwhile, the huge has a 55% chance of hitting and only a 31% chance of dropping a tiny object in one hit. So if you have the 8 tinies vs 1 huge scenario, the tinies will win in the second round and 83% of the time they will do so without a single loss. The only real downside to your swarm of bullshit is AoE's, because unlike your skeleton archers they're all melee.

Surprising no one: monks have more abilities than evar!!1! and still suck. Instead of wearing armor and carrying a shield (+4 to +10 AC), they get to add a second ability modifier (+2 to +3) to their AC. Then to kick them in their MAD balls, they get less ability score increases than the people wearing armor and carrying shields, like fighters. But at least they still get slowfall, am I right?
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fectin
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

But, but, but, aren't monks still marginally better when you get railroaded into losing all your equipment in an antimagic field and all the other characters are tied up?
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tussock
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

@ishy, your numbers are way above the monster manual limits. The Tarrasque only has 25 AC and +19 to hit, and only a couple things are above AC 19 and +14 to hit.

Once a PC gets around 25 AC and +10 to hit with advantage on both (so 3rd level), they're basically done until a handful of epic solos. Getting up to 40 AC and +25 to hit is more than sufficient for the Tarrasque. The extra 20-30 points does nothing.

Saves cap around DC 23, while skills are probably the toughest with the DMG suggesting you hit DC 30 now and then and fail (or just fail without rolling, because Viking ).
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ishy
Duke


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

tussock wrote:
@ishy, your numbers are way above the monster manual limits. The Tarrasque only has 25 AC and +19 to hit, and only a couple things are above AC 19 and +14 to hit.

Once a PC gets around 25 AC and +10 to hit with advantage on both (so 3rd level), they're basically done until a handful of epic solos. Getting up to 40 AC and +25 to hit is more than sufficient for the Tarrasque. The extra 20-30 points does nothing.

Saves cap around DC 23, while skills are probably the toughest with the DMG suggesting you hit DC 30 now and then and fail (or just fail without rolling, because Viking ).
Sure people will argue that it is not at punpun levels, and thus the designers did a good job and that it is not a problem because the DM can fix it.

But going far off the RNG with an AC of 71 and an attack bonus of 119 is the point. Yes, you probably won't have the 500 years you need to use the tomes, or even have all the magic items and people won't toss armour buffs your way when you're already off the RNG.

For saving throws: +59
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Skills:+60 (though can be higher for some specific skills)
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CapnTthePirateG
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

How are you getting 30 attribute points when the PCs have the arbitrary 20 cap?
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Hiram McDaniels
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

CapnTthePirateG wrote:
How are you getting 30 attribute points when the PCs have the arbitrary 20 cap?


If I was to hazard a guess, I'd say they're assuming magic items that set your stat to a higher level, like Belt of Rock Star Constitution and Boots of Irish Riverdancing Dexterity or something, which works in a vaccuum, but since magic items are at the sole discretion of the DM, actual table results may vary. Also, the fighter builds in particular operate under the very shaky assumption that the party spellcasters have nothing better to do than buff your character.

Edit: On second thought, maybe not that shaky, considering that boss monsters get to autosave against the first three effects thrown at them.
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ishy
Duke


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Tomes give you a +2 stat boost and a +2 boost to your max stat.
And can be used once every 100 years.
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Gary Gygax wrote:
The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
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CapnTthePirateG
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Seems like you'd want to be a 1000+ year old warforged then..
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Getting a stat to 30 is both never going to happen and also doesn't matter. Having a +10 to raw attribute tests is still less than the +5 plus proficiency bonus and crap that people are throwing around in their skills at mid level. Further, your average result is still no better than the best result of 20 untrained peasants giving it a go.

The game has dragons with a +15 to-hit in the first fucking adventure, but I don't think there's ever a monster with better than +20 that you're going to fight. So getting an AC into the mid thirties is something you're going to want to do very quickly, but there isn't really any purpose to getting your AC past 40. To-hit bonuses and skills are much the same. Since actual Titans only have +16 on their skills, the only thing you achieve by getting your bonus past +25 is to encourage your DM to inflate DCs and cause other tasks to become more likely to fail.

-Frank
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Dean
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Continuing to examine an optimized 5E Necromancer I’ve found a few more interesting things. In the thread about the 5E Pit Fiend Gnomeworks said this:
Gnomeworks wrote:
I would be curious to see if it is possible to build something that could solo this thing at a stupidly low level, comparatively. Maybe the level 6 necro can't deal with it, but perhaps it could at 12th? Or maybe some other absurd build can do it.

I can now say with confidence that a level 11 Necromancer can solo a Pit Fiend and will make the case that a level 6 Necromancer can too. Here's how you do it

You use the Frank Cheat to have tons of Skeletons.
We’ve covered this but its funny that no where else on the internet has figured this out. Literally everywhere else on the web only assumes Necro’s can have the number of minions they could make in one casting of spells but in fact they can get about 250% that many. By casting, sleeping, and casting again the Necromancer can have 24 Skeletons by level 6 and well over 100 by level 11. Bounded Accuracy makes Skeletons incredible and critical hits needing no confirmation makes them even more effective. There is almost no monster in the game that can survive 100 Skeletons fire so the question is only how do you become a level 11 Necromancer?

You Level Yourself
The 5E Monster Manual says that unless the spells text says otherwise summoned monsters are worth their normal amount of XP.
Quote:
Experience Points
The number of experience points (XP) a monster is worth is based on its challenge rating. Typically, XP is awarded for defeating the monster, although the DM may also award XP for neutralizing the threat posed by the monster in some other manner. Unless something tells you otherwise, a monster summoned by a spell or other magical ability is worth the XP noted in its stat block

With this knowledge the 5E Necromancer is fully capable of walking alone into a room and walking out higher level. In fact if a 6th level Necromancer spends all of his spell slots making Skeletons and killing them with his other Skeletons he can go from 6th to 11th level in at most 63 days. The time reduces massively if the MM challenge rating rules are followed that multiple threats are worth 2-4 times the experience. But no matter what a 5E Necromancer can spend 2 months in his basement and walk out an 11th level character who has an unstoppable skeleton army and is nigh invulnerable. Speaking of which...

You Become Nigh Invulnerable
An 11th level Necromancer has a powerful army but wouldn't it be nice if you were also almost unstoppable personally? Take your new 6th level spell slot and make it Magic Jar, then take your Skeleton horde into the woods on a Werewolf hunt. Once you've found a Werebear or Weretiger or whatever send your army at it. Dozens of Skeletons grappling something at once is virtually impossible to beat by 5E's mechanics so don't worry about it breaking through to you because it won't. Magic Jar into the creatures body. 5E's Magic Jar lasts until dispelled and it gives you the creatures stats except for its mental abilities score. Lycanthropes are the best target as they are humanoid, which is required for the spell to work, they have amazing stats, and they have damage immunity to physical damage unless it's magic or silver. By jumping into a Weretiger you can double your hp, get better stats than you could possibly have rolled, and be literally immune to almost every monsters damage. While the Fighters and Barbarians are gaining +1 to damage every 6 levels you gain immunity to damage and a sexy Tiger body with one spell. Wizards: still quadratic, bitches.

Once your Necromancer is an 11th level spellcaster Werewolf with an undead army I submit there is nothing you can't beat. Lets see how the character would fare against 3 very high level challenges.

Challenge 1: Become King of the Frost Giants
Frost Giants may be badass but they need someplace to crash when they're not rescuing heads of state from ninjas. Lets go to that place and take it over. 5E doesn't give us any indication how many might live in one tribe so lets refer to a superior game for that information. 3E says that Frost Giants tribes may get as large as 21-30 members so lets assume the average of 25. Ask the Frost Giants to become their king, if they refuse march on the village under a rain of arrows. Your Skeletons put out enough damage at extreme range (320 feet) that even with disadvantage they'll still kill 2 a turn. At 240 feet the Giants can throw boulders for 4d10+6 damage which on average rolls exactly kills one Skeleton, they can also throw them at you which you can laugh at because it's not made of silver so you're immune to it like almost everything in the 5E MM.

As the sides rush each other your Skeletons will have at least a turn of close range fire (80ft) which will kill about 4 Frost Giants a turn. Once you enter melee their should be about a dozen Giants remaining who will fare no better there. Your super tough Skeletons will only be killed by Giant attacks about 50% of the time so most Giant attacks don't even kill one Skeleton. The Giant clan should only last about 3 rounds in melee and you will end this fight with just a little less than a hundred skeletons and a Frost Giant crown you take from the corpse of their king. NOTE: This fight would gain you 390,000 experience which would be enough to level you to 20 in one go. In fact it would be enough to take you from level 1 to 20 in one go.

Challenge 2: Red Dragon
Seriously fuck this Dragon. A Red Dragon can be 1 rounded by about 65 Skeleton attacks and you've got half that again. Even in the cave environment that maximally benefits the Dragon in this fight you can march your Skeletons in waves of 20 at a time to walk in, shoot, and die to his next fire breath. The Dragon's best weapon is his Frightful Presence which can Frighten my skeletons because 5th edition sucks. Luckily Frightened only means disadvantage on attacks and given how much overkill we have on this Dragon's hp it doesn't even matter. The Dragon's fire breath is the only weapon he has and he can only breath fire every 3 rounds on average so even if the Dragon got some lucky recharges he would still never survive the 4th, or 5th waves. Even if the Dragon, through some celestial miracle of luck, managed to beat your Skeletons in a costly bloody battle you could just walk in yourself. You're immune to every attack it has except fire breath and you're resistant to that because you're a spellcaster and have Protection from Energy which is a 2nd level spell you don't need to create your undead army. You can blast the dragon with your 3d8 Chill Touch cantrip until whatever few hp it managed to escape the fight with are torn off in waves of necrotic energy.

Challenge 3: Pit Fiend
The Pit Fiend is a fat slow sack of HP begging to be shot to death. 100 Skeletons do about 60 damage to it a round at Extreme Range where the Pit Fiend can do nothing. At 150 feet the Pit Fiend can launch Fireballs but they only do 28 damage on average even if you fail. My Skeletons have 24 hp so a good percentage of his Fireballs will be total whiffs. Even assuming they don't roll barely below average and no one under the radius saves the Pit Fiend can only roast about a dozen Skellies a round as long as they have a single space between them. In a fight against 100 Skeletons the Pit Fiend only has two choices: Stay at range and die as he is dealt 1/5th of his HP every round or close and die faster as he is suddenly dealt almost half his hp a round within 80 feet of us. The best option of course would be to rush the Necromancer himself and try to kill him before the Skeletons tore him apart but that won't happen because you'll be more than 120 feet away and invisible, because Invisibility is a 2nd level spell you don't need to create your undead army. Since the Pit Fiend can't actually see Invisible creatures you can watch idly as he pitifully launches fireballs and is killed within 2 rounds of doing so.

5E Necromancers make everyone else look stupid and can rule the world by level 5.
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Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.


Last edited by Dean on Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:50 pm; edited 3 times in total
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spongeknight
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dean wrote:
5E Necromancers make everyone else look stupid and can rule the world by level 5.


They can kill any monster they want, sure, but any city in the world can field enough shitty human archers to kill your skeleton archers. So you don't take over the world so much as you take over every part of it not occupied by 1st level nobody races.
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A Man In Black wrote:
I do not want people to feel like they can never get rid of their Guisarme or else they can't cast Evard's Swarm Of Black Tentacleguisarmes.


Voss wrote:
Which is pretty classic WW bullshit, really. Suck people in and then announce that everyone was a dogfucker all along.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

spongeknight wrote:
Dean wrote:
5E Necromancers make everyone else look stupid and can rule the world by level 5.


They can kill any monster they want, sure, but any city in the world can field enough shitty human archers to kill your skeleton archers. So you don't take over the world so much as you take over every part of it not occupied by 1st level nobody races.


Once you've magic jarred into a werewolf body, you can do it yourself. A werewolf, unlike a Kraken or a Pit Fiend, cannot be super killed by a couple dozen halfling militia with slings and rocks.

-Frank
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FatR
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

spongeknight wrote:

They can kill any monster they want, sure, but any city in the world can field enough shitty human archers to kill your skeleton archers.


I don't think they have exact numbers on populations and militia sizes in DMG. And as this only leaves us real-world analogies, one hundred archers with unbreakable morale, led by a guy who is imprevious to normal weapons, are going to be quite badass. Not enough to take over the world, but plently enough to take over a city and start supplementing your force with people who submit to you.
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spongeknight
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
Once you've magic jarred into a werewolf body, you can do it yourself. A werewolf, unlike a Kraken or a Pit Fiend, cannot be super killed by a couple dozen halfling militia with slings and rocks.

-Frank


FatR wrote:
I don't think they have exact numbers on populations and militia sizes in DMG. And as this only leaves us real-world analogies, one hundred archers with unbreakable morale, led by a guy who is imprevious to normal weapons, are going to be quite badass. Not enough to take over the world, but plently enough to take over a city and start supplementing your force with people who submit to you.


So basically it's just a race between necromancers to see who can take over the otherwise shitty and useless world first? I'd actually play that campaign.

Just that one though, 5e can't make any other interesting story as far as I'm aware.
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A Man In Black wrote:
I do not want people to feel like they can never get rid of their Guisarme or else they can't cast Evard's Swarm Of Black Tentacleguisarmes.


Voss wrote:
Which is pretty classic WW bullshit, really. Suck people in and then announce that everyone was a dogfucker all along.
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Irish
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Out of curiosity, wasn't there some really retarded build for laser clerics?
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Korwin
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Irish wrote:
Out of curiosity, wasn't there some really retarded build for laser clerics?
Laser cleric sounds 4ish.
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Red_Rob wrote:

I mean, I'm pretty sure the Mayans had a prophecy about what would happen if Frank and PL ever agreed on something. PL will argue with Frank that the sky is blue or grass is green, so when they both separately piss on your idea that is definitely something to think about.
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