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Red_Rob
Prince


Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 2569

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
As for Tough Skin vs Fortitude, Tough Skin seems a lot better to me. And not just because it saves you 48 design points. Let's consider the effects on a Fomorian Giant:

It has 6 protection (all natural) on the face, and 16 protection (mixed) on the body. So Tough Skin saves you from 5 damage to the face, or 3 damage to the body. Fortitude saves you from half the damage you take after protection. So it's better than Tough Skin if you get hit for 18+ damage to the face or 24+ damage to the body. And it's worse than Tough Skin if you take 14 or less damage to the face or 20 or less damage to the body. Since most attacks are less than 20 damage, Tough Skin is usually pulling even or ahead just in absolute terms. Also it works against Fire and Cold damage while Fortitude does not.

-Frank


When you factor in the 20% protection reduction for Piercing attacks, and the 20% damage bonus for Slashing attacks after armor, I get the feeling Fortitude comes out ahead more often than not. Also I'd highlight that when you have regeneration you aren't generally going to die from being nickel-and-dimed by 1 or 2 damage hits anyway, it's the spike damage and high damage attacks that will pose the greatest risk. Those are precisely the things Fortitude helps against, so I'd say it is worth the extra investment in most cases.
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Simplified Tome Armor. Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."
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FrankTrollman
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Red Rob wrote:
the 20% damage bonus for Slashing attacks after armor


That doesn't change the point of payoff at all. If you get a 16 point sword blow to the head:
  • With Tough Skin you have 11 protection, so there's 5 damage past your protection and you lose 6 hit points.
  • With Fortitude you halve the post-protection damage, but you only have 6 protection so there's 10 points past your protection, which is halved to 5 and you still lose 6 hit points.


The blunt face multiplier also doesn't change the payoff point at all. Again, the amount of damage is multiplied after protection, so the point where Fortitude and Tough Skin are the same is the same either way.

As for being nickle and dimed to death, it's not that likely with archery (although it's better to take no damage at all from more archery hits from the standpoint of picking up afflictions). But in melee your giants are often personally being pitted against two or three squares worth of bullshit human infantry. So turns where you get attacked by 9 spears or hatchets is very much a thing (and your defense is pretty much zero against the later attacks), and that will do 2-3 points of damage more often than you can heal it by a considerable margin.

-Frank
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Shatner
Knight-Baron


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 874

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm still experimenting with 'em but LA Pangaea's Centuride Crossbows is pretty interesting.

30gp for an archer is, historically, a bad idea. However, they have a precision of 15 for their crossbows, so they actually hit stuff, the fact that they're stronger translates into more damage on the accurate armor-piercing shot, they carry a shield, have body protection of 19, two melee attacks (short sword, hoof), a defense of 16, recuperation, high map and combat speed, and solid stats across the board (including morale).

The thing is you can have a line of centuride crossbows up front and they'll shoot at whatever you tell 'em to shoot and then do a really solid job holding the line against whatever closes to melee. Most indies, cavalry included, die/break and then your centurides go right back to shooting. With heavy armor, high precision, 18hp, and a shield, they win all archery contests. It's a really interesting and extremely versatile unit.

The only real problem is that they refuse to wear a hat. What few deaths they do suffer at the hands of indies are all someone getting a lucky head shot and dropping 'em. Being size-3, human infantry seem to have poorer odds of hitting there than average, but if you're fighting giants, I expect head shots to be more common.

As an aside, site searching with LA Pangaea is frustrating. Not because they have poor diversity but because their sole source of air, water, and astral is a bookworm you want to never leave the lab except when they show up in force to Voltron together with communions to kill armies... before going back to the lab. Needing to have 4 mages cover all of your paths searching irks me... but maybe that's because I've been spoiled playing EA and MA T'ien Ch'i.
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maglag
Duke


Joined: 02 Apr 2015
Posts: 1171

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Shatner wrote:
Being size-3, human infantry seem to have poorer odds of hitting there than average, but if you're fighting giants, I expect head shots to be more common.


That is correct, the chances of hitting a body part depends on the size difference among other things. Weapon length can make up for size difference. Ulm pikemen in particular can gouge out giant's eyes and stab them in the chest while ulm axemen are mostly left clipping giant toenails.
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FrankTrollman wrote:

Actually, our blood banking system is set up exactly the way you'd want it to be if you were a secret vampire conspiracy.
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Judging__Eagle
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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Location: Lake Ontario is in my backyard; Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Shatner wrote:
I'm still experimenting with 'em but LA Pangaea's Centuride Crossbows is pretty interesting.


There's two ways that I could see these being used:

  • As the archery element in centaur-only armies that are leap-frogging to take weak looking indie provinces, xor dodging the bulk of enemy forces while raiding enemy provinces.

  • As the leading defensive edges of massed Saytr Sniper blocs in major early-mid game armies being sent against serious opposition. A block of archers that you can't hurt even if you flank the entirety of the enemies army due to a thin plate line of hulking superarchers just isn't what most indies/nations are going to be able to counter.
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    maglag
    Duke


    Joined: 02 Apr 2015
    Posts: 1171

    PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    New nation, Mekona, aka "SSSPPPAAARRRTTTAAA Giant edition", now with +100% unhappy slaves!

    Highlights at first sight:
    -No sacred troops because they hate puny gods, but their giant troops go all the way to elite 21 armor 40 gold/50 resources dudes with formation fighter and magic spears.
    -Forts cause unrest too.
    -Their armored giant troops are recruitment limited, 4 at cap, 1 at other forts, there's a national global that help with the two points above.
    -Slave troops with formation fighter don't look too shabby to fill in the ranks.
    -Also disco throwing unarmored giants with two fist attacks.
    -Most mages are old geezers, only the cap limited ones look like thug material.
    -Huge research costs all around, but their cap has a +100 res site and their top mages give +25 each.
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    FrankTrollman wrote:

    Actually, our blood banking system is set up exactly the way you'd want it to be if you were a secret vampire conspiracy.


    Last edited by maglag on Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    angelfromanotherpin
    Overlord


    Joined: 07 Mar 2008
    Posts: 7612

    PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    The changelog includes a bunch of other changes, but the ones that most interest me are:
    Attack rear now less reliable
    Fix for ranged target prediction

    I haven't played since the update dropped, how noticeable are these?
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    "Now that we've determined that up to π angels can dance on the head of a pin, how do we determine the specific number (or fraction) of angels dancing?"
    "What if angels from another pin engage them in melee combat?"
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    Red_Rob
    Prince


    Joined: 17 Jul 2009
    Posts: 2569

    PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    angelfromanotherpin wrote:
    The changelog includes a bunch of other changes, but the ones that most interest me are:
    Attack rear now less reliable
    Fix for ranged target prediction

    I haven't played since the update dropped, how noticeable are these?


    There is much gnashing of teeth by Caelum players that Attack Rear is no longer an i-win button against indies and PD, so it seems it has gone back to the Dom4 standard.

    Archer targetting I haven't really tested. One of the other big changes is that lance bonus damage is now limited by Strength, which means the exploit of stacking every +AP bless and getting 50+ damage lances no longer works.

    maglag wrote:
    New nation, Mekona, aka "SSSPPPAAARRRTTTAAA Giant edition", now with +100% unhappy slaves!

    Mekone looks like fun, but I question if they are actually good. The unrest thing seems like a serious negative, given even low unrest really hits your income and I've seen them gain 10-15 unrest in one turn. They have no nature mages for easy patrollers, and given they are killing off their population at the rate of 300 per year anyway in fort provinces I don't know they can afford to increase that with patrolling.
    _________________
    Simplified Tome Armor. Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.

    "Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."
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    Shatner
    Knight-Baron


    Joined: 07 Mar 2008
    Posts: 874

    PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Slaves have half upkeep and they can recruit chaff for 8gp and 5 resources. An indie commander with a couple dozen patrolling isn't too pricey, in terms of upfront cost or upkeep. That said chaff carries a shield, spear, and javelin means it might actually accomplish something if it ever needs to enter a battle for real.

    You're right that that's still a cost, but it's a surmountable one.

    If you keep the E1F1?1H1 (Ephone or something similar) in your forts then there's unique events that get you swag and units as your giants routinely break the will of the slave class. Failing to have said commander present can get you events that cause more unrest.

    It also bears pointing out that their giant troops and commanders as well as two of their slave units have Formation Fighter, and amazingly that means you can fit two size-4 giants in a square (or a size-4 giant and two size-2 humans). That helps with one of the biggest combat issues with giants: low troop density.

    All that said, I have no idea how to actually play this nation, but then I never did 'figure out' how to play the giant nations well and this one sure as heck isn't simple.


    Last edited by Shatner on Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    DrPraetor
    Knight-Baron


    Joined: 02 Apr 2009
    Posts: 849

    PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    I had a mod nation where Caelum and Abysia moved in together, although I made the mounted Abysian "immortals" actually immortal. Also I put them on bulls instead of gryphons.

    http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/archive/index.php/t-32881.html
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    When you talk, all I can hear is "DunningKruger" over and over again like you were a god damn Pokemon. --Frank
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    maglag
    Duke


    Joined: 02 Apr 2015
    Posts: 1171

    PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Anyone checked out the throne of creation?

    30% discount in conjuration, 20% discount in construction, +1 ritual level, 100 extra resources, in return for +3 turnoil in all your dominion.

    I guess if you already went turnoil/luck then there's no drawback at all, but otherwise it's something you would want to wait some time before capturing, getting some research to (ab)use all those discounts in return for the -6% penalty to gold/resources and big hit in recruitment points.
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    FrankTrollman wrote:

    Actually, our blood banking system is set up exactly the way you'd want it to be if you were a secret vampire conspiracy.
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    FrankTrollman
    Serious Badass


    Joined: 07 Mar 2008
    Posts: 27305

    PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    maglag wrote:
    Anyone checked out the throne of creation?

    30% discount in conjuration, 20% discount in construction, +1 ritual level, 100 extra resources, in return for +3 turnoil in all your dominion.

    I guess if you already went turnoil/luck then there's no drawback at all, but otherwise it's something you would want to wait some time before capturing, getting some research to (ab)use all those discounts in return for the -6% penalty to gold/resources and big hit in recruitment points.


    All of the Level 3 Thrones are kind of insane. The ones that hit you for scales penalties are often not worth claiming until quite late in the game. Even the Throne of Autumn and the Throne of Pestilence are only worth claiming when gold has pretty close to zero meaning. And even then it's a pretty shit deal most of the time. +1 Death really hurts and translates to a significant reduction in the number of forts and mages you can buy.

    -Frank
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    DrPraetor
    Knight-Baron


    Joined: 02 Apr 2009
    Posts: 849

    PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Is there interest in a denizens game?

    If we've got less than 6 players (say), I might cross-post it to the steam forum.

    The throne of pestilence can trigger a worldwide disease event, which I suppose might be exploitable for some positions, but is probably just annoying.
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    Chaosium rules are made of unicorn pubic hair and cancer. --AncientH
    When you talk, all I can hear is "DunningKruger" over and over again like you were a god damn Pokemon. --Frank
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    angelfromanotherpin
    Overlord


    Joined: 07 Mar 2008
    Posts: 7612

    PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    I'm provisionally interested, depending on the parameters. Probably best to start a new thread for it, though.
    _________________
    "Now that we've determined that up to π angels can dance on the head of a pin, how do we determine the specific number (or fraction) of angels dancing?"
    "What if angels from another pin engage them in melee combat?"
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    Red_Rob
    Prince


    Joined: 17 Jul 2009
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    PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    I can probably fit another game into my schedule.
    _________________
    Simplified Tome Armor. Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.

    "Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."
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    K
    King


    Joined: 07 Mar 2008
    Posts: 6268

    PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    I'd be interested.

    Are there any good maps out yet? Dom5 maps are even uglier than Dom4.


    Last edited by K on Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    GreatGreyShrike
    Journeyman


    Joined: 18 Feb 2014
    Posts: 171

    PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    I'd be interested.

    In terms of maps - Corbeau's map generator is decent at making maps for games.
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