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Dominions V
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The first pass of the Dom5 mod inspector is up.
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"Now that we've determined that up to π angels can dance on the head of a pin, how do we determine the specific number (or fraction) of angels dancing?"
"What if angels from another pin engage them in melee combat?"
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K
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Interesting facts:

-Blood hunting is now 40% per level of Blood.

-Lanka's Gana are now MR for half on spectral weapons instead of MR for none, and they get Size 4 Berserk Tramplers in a Buffalo summons.

-You can get Blesses on level 3 in all Sorcery or level 3 on all Elemental. For example, choosing Fire 3, Air 3, Water 3 and Earth 3 results in Blesses for all those paths.
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GreatGreyShrike
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

K wrote:
Dom4 rules for blood hunting are:

1. 30% base chance per point of Blood and Dousing bonus. Blood 0 is like 5%. Therefore, Blood 3 is 90% base chance.


K wrote:
-Blood hunting is now 40% per level of Blood.


You ... seem to be mistaken about Dom 4, as far as I can tell.

In dom 4 these are the checks according to the manual:

Dom4 Manual wrote:

- First, a level check: % chance of success = 10 + (blood level x 40)
- Second, a population check: % chance of success = province’s population / 50
- Third, an unrest check: % chance of failure = province unrest / 4


In dom 5 these are the checks according to the manual:

Dom5 Manual wrote:

- First, a level check: % chance of success = 10 + (blood level x 40)
- Second, a population check: % chance of success = province’s population / 50
- Third, an unrest check: % chance of failure = province unrest / 4



...

So they're exactly the same percent chance per level of blood - nothing has changed between ... actually it's the same in Dom3's manual as well. According to the manuals, nothing has changed about these checks since the last revision of Dominions 3's manual.

Are you claiming that the manual's descriptions of the checks was wrong at some point in the past, and now the actual game maps to the manual, when before it didn't? Or were you just misremembering?

There definitely have been errors in the Dominions manuals before, so I would trust in-game testing over what's written there, but I don't really think the blood hunt checks were in error and are now fixed, from my experience. I think they just stayed the same, instead.

---

K wrote:
Slaves gained is d6 + Blood level + Blood dousing bonuses on a success, with 6s exploding.


There's obviously at least one term missing from your idea about of how many blood slaves (were? are?) gotten on the previous page - if it's right at all. This term is also missing from the manual's description of how slave counts are calculated, though. That is that the magic site frequency factors into the final result somehow, at least since early versions of Dominions 4 (possibly not in Dominions 3 - haven't tested Dom3). When I was testing Blood Hunt in Dominions 4 a few years ago, I found that there were obvious and statistically significant differences in the number of slaves from bloodhunting depending on special site frequency- with it cranked down to say 15 and all else the same, you pull in way fewer slaves, with it cranked up to 75 you pull in way more slaves. I just tested again in Dominions 5, and confirmed this to still be the case to my own satisfaction.

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


As far as I can tell whatever modification of slave count is made by magic site frequency still exists in Dominions 5, though it doesn't show up at all in the manual's explanations.

The documentation for this game is terrible.
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K
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There are some hidden factors in Blood hunting that I didn't include like magic site frequency, but I think I must have been mis-remembering on the 30% vs 40%. My bad.

The problem with this game is that the manual is written by a fan and even the designers don't remember all of the things they put into the game.
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The latest patch gave MA Man a set of Nature-based communion spells. It's a neat idea, but I don't think it helps them that much, and it makes them less learn-to-play friendly.

edit: apparently it is a different and friendlier communion effect where unconscious slaves are removed from the communion. So they can't kill their slaves by overcasting, but the communion falls apart more easily.
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"Now that we've determined that up to π angels can dance on the head of a pin, how do we determine the specific number (or fraction) of angels dancing?"
"What if angels from another pin engage them in melee combat?"


Last edited by angelfromanotherpin on Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
The latest patch gave MA Man a set of Nature-based communion spells. It's a neat idea, but I don't think it helps them that much, and it makes them less learn-to-play friendly.

edit: apparently it is a different and friendlier communion effect where unconscious slaves are removed from the communion. So they can't kill their slaves by overcasting, but the communion falls apart more easily.

Even if it wasn't friendlier, just the fact that they get build-anywhere sacred communion slaves with Encumbrance 3 is a very very big deal.

There is now an instant answer to the question "What is Man supposed to do in the late game?" And the answer is that when the daughters march to war, shit gets crazy.

-Frank
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Zaranthan
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

MA Man has always been the recommended first nation for a new player, yes? If so, it greatly pleases me to see them get a national gimmick as powerful as communions. My introduction to Dominions was a Let's Play where the narrator was LA Arcosephale, and that was rampant with communion cheese, including a bit where he used his array of disposable S2 mages to delete a rival pretender from the game by horror marking it into irrelevance.
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maglag
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Latest patch resulted in an hilarious bug where living troops no longer need food but undead troops do.

Also anybody knows what to do with EA Rus? The chud spearmen and bersekers appear pretty solid as long as they can avoid being surrounded, can spam zwemeis with no need of a specialized pretender, recruit scouts and spear+bow chaff anywhere. On the other hand your only out of cap mage kinda sucks (unless you get a forest in which case you can recruit A2 dudes there) and even your cap-only mages aren't anything to blow one's mind, plus have a single astral level making them prime targets for duel. Can't natively cast most of their national spells either.

Maybe they want a rainbow pretender to forge boosters and get their fancy big mages.
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FrankTrollman wrote:

Actually, our blood banking system is set up exactly the way you'd want it to be if you were a secret vampire conspiracy.
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Ikeren
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So, brief playthrough of MA Ulm versus ai;

Nations that rely on indie mages are getting a serious dicking with the commander recruitment points things. Most Indie mages/throne mages are 4 recruitment points, which means unless you get a castle there (+900gp), you get 1 every 4 turns; with a castle, you get 1 every 2 turns, which makes indie mages far more expensive, infrastructure wise.

I'm not sure what other nations are taking a serious hit from this, but MA Ulm is, for sure.
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maglag
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Most non-throne indie mages like amazons and lizards are 2 recruitment points. And the throne ones that cost 4 recruitment points are those that were slow-to-recruit to before.

And sure you can technically keep a throne un-forted, but that sounds like a really bad tactical decision.

But all in all relying on getting nice indie mages at MA sounds like risky gambling to me. The chances of getting a nice mage throne were never very reliable.

Plus heavy armor rocks now, so I don't feel like MA Ulm's been particularly nerfed.
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FrankTrollman wrote:

Actually, our blood banking system is set up exactly the way you'd want it to be if you were a secret vampire conspiracy.


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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ikeren wrote:
So, brief playthrough of MA Ulm versus ai;

Nations that rely on indie mages are getting a serious dicking with the commander recruitment points things. Most Indie mages/throne mages are 4 recruitment points, which means unless you get a castle there (+900gp), you get 1 every 4 turns; with a castle, you get 1 every 2 turns, which makes indie mages far more expensive, infrastructure wise.

I'm not sure what other nations are taking a serious hit from this, but MA Ulm is, for sure.


MA Ulm seems like one of the nations least hit by the fact that rando lizard shamans and shit are slow to recruit outside fortresses. Ulm is a drain nation and has national drain-immune casters. That means that rando lizard shamans aren't efficient researchers for Ulm, which in turn means that the number you ever want is like 2 or 3 to go search for sites and later on spend some nature gems.

Nations like Vanheim take it in the ear, because they were relying on random shamans for research purposes because their national mages are expensive badass cavalry. So the fact that it's hard to put up a lab in a forest province and crank out a bunch of indie shamans is very hurtful to Vanheim. Nations like Ulm and Tien Chi who were happy relying on their national mages for research and only wanted indies for magic diversity are basically OK with the situation.

-Frank
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Ikeren
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

@Maglag; not just throne ones, but special site ones. You suddenly have to fort your Libraries because Sages require 4 recruitment points.

You have to fort your jade sorceresses because jade sorceresses require 2.

It's a massive infrastructure cost increase.

I usually want ~4-6 of any random off path mages for site searching/forging/battle casting. That went from taking 4-6 or 8-12 turns, to 8-12 or 16-24 turns.
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maglag
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Like Frank say, if you just want the magic variety then you only really need 2-3 of each.

The nations really hit would be those with national foreign recruit mages IMO.

But even then this feels like when people were crying the sky was falling when slow-to-recruit was introduced in Dom4 and suddenly most nations only had half your uber cap mages. However the nations that didn't get hit by slow-to-recruit like Kailasa didn't suddenly dominate the meta so meh.

All in all I would say it's better for the game balance because it makes it harder for a player who gets lucky with super indie mages to abuse them.
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FrankTrollman wrote:

Actually, our blood banking system is set up exactly the way you'd want it to be if you were a secret vampire conspiracy.
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angelfromanotherpin
Overlord


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm looking for input on a pretender design for Fomoria. Obviously a regen bless is super good for their sacred giants, and since the pretender has to be awake anyhow for the bless to be active, it might as well be an expansion helper, so my first thought is an Awake Dom6 N7 Green Dragon. Is there a less obvious build that looks better for reasons?
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"Now that we've determined that up to π angels can dance on the head of a pin, how do we determine the specific number (or fraction) of angels dancing?"
"What if angels from another pin engage them in melee combat?"
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
I'm looking for input on a pretender design for Fomoria. Obviously a regen bless is super good for their sacred giants, and since the pretender has to be awake anyhow for the bless to be active, it might as well be an expansion helper, so my first thought is an Awake Dom6 N7 Green Dragon. Is there a less obvious build that looks better for reasons?


The typical bless chassis for all the sacred giant nations that can get it is the Thrice Horned Boar at E6N7 for Hard Skin and Regeneration. That gives you a very effective combat god (protection 27 in your dominion plus recuperation plus regeneration plus size 6 trample), and is an extremely effective bless for your giants.

You need to have -2 Scales though, which hurts. But it's not like you have to come from an Apocalypto inspired hellscape.

-Frank
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Huh, that is pretty sweet. I'll try it out at Misfortune 2. I'm concerned that I'll miss the dragon's mobility, although I guess I can put the boar on a carpet or something by the time it really comes up.
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"Now that we've determined that up to π angels can dance on the head of a pin, how do we determine the specific number (or fraction) of angels dancing?"
"What if angels from another pin engage them in melee combat?"
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K
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Since the Incarnate Blessings require the pretender to be currently alive, I expect that SC mid-game and late-game pretenders are going to be pretty rare.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So for my first mod nation for Dominions V, I would like to do Themiscyra. Really have to scrap all my old work on the concept and start over because Dominions V nations are so different from Dominions IV nations. But there's a lot of interesting modding tools and nations in Dominions V can be really deep.

No matter how you slice it, being a nation that gets a lot of cavalry and a bunch of different sacreds and flyers is a pretty decent place to start. Being able to search for literally every type of magic site (even if only at 1 or 2) is a good setup for the late game even if it takes a while to get that off the ground because you have to recruit 5 different commanders to get all the site searching. On the flip side, having expensive and elite soldiers whose strength is at or below normal makes your entire nation poor at sieging and requiring a lot of mages to get your site searching on can make for a slow start and having diversity of weak mages makes your battle magic less than ideal.

Conceptually, the nation should be middle era and be recognizable as having combined the technology of the different Amazon tribes (Onyx, Garnet, Crystal, Jade, and Sauromatian). And it should also be recognizable as having the flavor of the different amazon tribes. So you still have Crystal Amazons as archers, but they use Composite Bows rather than Short Bows because they have composite bow technology from the EA Raiders. Similarly, Themiscryran Amazons are going to use Chain based armor over Scale because they have chain technology from the EA Onyx Amazons.

Regular national troops are obviously better than Indies. The Sauromatian Amazon is exactly a Jade Amazon in terms of costs, but has +1 Strength and a Magic Snake Tattoo (more on the tattoos later). In the Middle era the expectation is that troops are better still comparatively speaking than they were in the EA. So in addition to being equipped with SOTA Amazon gear, the Themiscyrans will have slightly upgrade base stats. And I do mean very slightly, with me looking at something along the lines of Themiscyran Jade Amazons costing 11g instead of 12g and having a Magic Snake Tattoo. For thematic reasons, I'd actually prefer it if the basic infantry was Strength 9 rather than going the Sauromatia route of giving +1 Strength to all the ladies and making them Strength 10. The Strength 10 upgrade should be for the Garnet Amazons and Gryphon Riders (note: Grphon Riders are already Strength 10, but you know what I mean).

National Mages are a flat better deal than indie mages. We have a comparison of what it means to get indies as national mages, and it's the Lizard Shaman. Joins Ctis for 90 instead of 115 gold. The Themiscyran Sorceresses should be Sorcery 2 / Elemental 1 with a 10% Elemental/Cross Sorcery random. That would be a cost of 125g. The basic Priestess cost is 80g and is a Sorcery 1 / Holy 1 with a 10% chance of an appropriate tribal elemental pick (Onyx are 125g because they are H2).

The sacred cavalry is obviously a big deal and you get four flavors of it. It's upgraded with modern Themiscyran equipment. So the Gryphon Riders get Chain Mail Hauberks. The Pegasus Riders get Composite Bows. Ideally, I'd like them to be recruitable outside the capital only in forts of the appropriate terrain, but that command isn't implemented yet. But again, this is where "national troops are better than indies" becomes really obvious. The Oiorpatra is like a Jade Maiden except that in addition to wearing better armor it costs 5g less, has +2 Strength, +2 Defense Skill, +2 Morale, and 2 Tattoos. These aren't going to be capital only, so the boost doesn't have to be that extreme, but it should clearly be significant.

I would like some capital-only infantry that is recognizably aligned with the four Amazon types. Capital-only archers with Poison bows for Crystal. Capital-only Abyssian throwbacks of Strength 11 ladies with Fire Resist 15 for Garnet, and so on for the Onyx and Jade.

There is also of course a demonstrable need for a Flying leader so that the Gryphon Riders and Pegasus Riders can actually do anything. But it can be capital-only.

Anyway, basic lineup is:
    Scout
    Chieftess
    Warrior Priestess (H1)
    Warrior Queen
    Crystal Priestess (S1H1)
    Garnet Priestess (B1H1)
    Jade Priestess (N1H1)
    Onyx Priestess (D1H2)
    Crystal Sorceress (S2A1)
    Garnet Sorceress (B2F1)
    Jade Sorceress (N2W1)
    Onyx Sorceress (D2E1)
    Sky Priestess (A2H1) - Mounted on Pegasus, Capital only.
    Warrior Sorceress (Random Sorcery 2, H2) - Mounted on Jade Lizard, Capital Only

    Amazon (Crystal - Leather Cuirass, Leather Cap, Composite Bow, Dagger), Horse Tattoo
    Amazon (Jade - Chain Cuirass, Iron Cap, Shield, Spear), Serpent Tattoo
    Amazon (Garnet - Chain Cuirass, Iron Cap, Shield, Spear, Fire Resist), Bear Tattoo
    Amazon (Onyx - Chain Hauberk, Half Helmet, Shield, Spear), Bear Tattoo
    Raider (Mounted - Leather Hauberk, Iron Cap, Buckler,Composite Bow, Spear), Horse Tattoo
    Lancer (Mounted - Leather Hauberk, Iron Cap, Shield, Light Lance), Horse Tattoo
    Heavy Raider (Mounted - Chain Hauberk, Half Helmet, Buckler,Composite Bow, Spear), Horse Tattoo
    Heavy Lancer (Mounted - Chain Hauberk, Half Helmet, Light Lance, Hoof), Horse Tattoo
    Cataphract (Mounted - Chain Hauberk, Half Helmet, Shield, Lance, Broad Sword, Hoof), Horse Tattoo
    Pegasus Rider (Flying, Mounted - Leather Cuirass, Iron Cap, Buckler, Light Lance, Hoof), Sacred, Horse Tattoo (2)
    Gryphon Rider (Mounted, Flying, Chain Hauberk, Half Helmet, Shield, Light Lance, Claw, Bite) Sacred, Bear Tattoo, Horse Tattoo
    Jade Maiden (Mounted, Chain Hauberk, Half Helmet, Shield, Light Lance, Bite) Sacred, Snake Tattoo, Horse Tattoo
    Nightmare (Mounted, Full Chain, Half Helmet, Shield, Light Lance, Hoof) Sacred, Bear Tattoo, Horse Tattoo, Fear
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yay, I had a lot of fun with Themiscyra in the previous iterations.
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"Now that we've determined that up to π angels can dance on the head of a pin, how do we determine the specific number (or fraction) of angels dancing?"
"What if angels from another pin engage them in melee combat?"
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Ikeren
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's legit super cool. I'm a fan.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Preliminary target Pretender list for Themiscyra:

-- Gorgon (138)
-- Mother of Monsters (157)
-- Oracle (158)
-- Crone (249)
-- Neteret of Joy (385)
-- Neteret of Many Names (387)
-- Lich Queen (395)
-- Bitch Queen (401)
-- Great Enchantress (485)
-- Titan of War and Wisdom (600)
-- Great Mother (606)
-- Fountain of Blood (656)
-- Vampire Queen (862)
-- Asynja (1098)
-- Drakaina (1231)
-- Titan of Rivers (1342)
-- Titan of Love (1343)
-- Titan of Serpents and Medicine (1348)
-- Volla of the Bountiful Forest (1370)
-- Annunaki of the Morning Star (1374)
-- Sphinx (2138)
-- Asynja (2239)
-- Anunaki of Love and War (2435)
-- Anunaki of the Underworld (2438)
-- Statue of Fertility (2460)
-- Celestial Gryphon (2786)
-- Hieracosphinx (2797)
-- Titan of Winds and Waves (2851)
-- Centauride Enchantress (2961)
-- Morigna (3076)
-- Matrona of the Healing Spring (3082)
-- Deives of the Sun (3086)

---

I didn't do a terribly deep dive - just grabbing all the . But as the nation with what is literally the best possible magic diversity for site searching (arguably surpassing even EA Tien Chi) and having 4 different flavors of sacred cavalry and sacred communion slaves and sacred flying thugs (albeit in small numbers), you could potentially justify a lot of different pretender options.

Is there a Pretender type that you'd think you'd want that isn't represented here?

-Frank
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GreatGreyShrike
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I personally enjoy the various immobiles and pick them disproportionately often. I think on thematic grounds you could justify adding in the Fountain of Blood (656) (inhabits a girl-child, same as the Oracle) and the Statue of the Bloody Mother (2461) (spirit of a goddess). I played some of the previous version of Themyscira and often took them in a Blood-economy direction, because they could access most of the unique blood summons fairly easily and could use those to climb further into other magic paths, and the blood summons national spell making Morrigans you gave them was also strong.

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Red_Rob
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
The typical bless chassis for all the sacred giant nations that can get it is the Thrice Horned Boar at E6N7 for Hard Skin and Regeneration. That gives you a very effective combat god (protection 27 in your dominion plus recuperation plus regeneration plus size 6 trample), and is an extremely effective bless for your giants.

You need to have -2 Scales though, which hurts. But it's not like you have to come from an Apocalypto inspired hellscape.

-Frank


I'd have thought springing for an extra point of E for Fortitude would be worthwhile. Halved damage after Protection synergises pretty nicely with Regeneration and a decent HP pool. Due to armor stacking, Hard Skin will normally only provide 2-3 points of Prot, and Fomorian sacreds in particular don't have great armor. Really I think you want Hard Skin when the extra protection will push them over the threshold where they are unlikely to take damage from regular attacks, just pushing a 16 prot up to 18 or 19 doesn't seem great. When they are facing giants people tend to pull out the troops with two-handers and other big damage weapons, and I think halved damage will pay greater dividends there.

GreatGreyShrike wrote:
I personally enjoy the various immobiles and pick them disproportionately often. I think on thematic grounds you could justify adding in the Fountain of Blood (656) (inhabits a girl-child, same as the Oracle) and the Statue of the Bloody Mother (2461) (spirit of a goddess).


The Bloody Mother is pretty strongly Meso-american themed and I think would look odd in a nation theoretically more grounded in European myths and culture.
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Simplified Tome Armor. Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."


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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Girls who are missing:
Virtue (215)
Devi of Darkness (1341)
Devi of Good Fortune (1344)
Great Enchantress (1905)
Teteo Inan (2434)
Bodhisattva of Mercy (2457)
Kamadhenu (2466)
Kami of the Sun (3072)
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"Now that we've determined that up to π angels can dance on the head of a pin, how do we determine the specific number (or fraction) of angels dancing?"
"What if angels from another pin engage them in melee combat?"
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The South Asian, East Asian, and Central American goddesses weren't on the block because they seemed like they didn't fit the sort of Balkans/Mediterranean feel. That was why I didn't throw in the Devis, Kamis, or Teotls. The Virtue just seemed like it was too specifically Christian for the Amazons, though maybe that's just me.
I thought about the Great Sorceress, but her writeup is very specfically about being a Partholonian who lives among the Tuatha, and that's a bad fit for Themiscyra which is very definately not in Eriu or Ys.


As for Tough Skin vs Fortitude, Tough Skin seems a lot better to me. And not just because it saves you 48 design points. Let's consider the effects on a Fomorian Giant:

It has 6 protection (all natural) on the face, and 16 protection (mixed) on the body. So Tough Skin saves you from 5 damage to the face, or 3 damage to the body. Fortitude saves you from half the damage you take after protection. So it's better than Tough Skin if you get hit for 18+ damage to the face or 24+ damage to the body. And it's worse than Tough Skin if you take 14 or less damage to the face or 20 or less damage to the body. Since most attacks are less than 20 damage, Tough Skin is usually pulling even or ahead just in absolute terms. Also it works against Fire and Cold damage while Fortitude does not.

-Frank
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