The Gaming Den

RobbyPants wrote:

maglag wrote:In 3e it takes a single CR 3 core monster to take out the Tarrasque itself.

Which monster is that? My first thought was the shadow, but the tarrasque is immune to energy damage.

There are several CR <= 3 creatures that are immune to the Tarrasque's attacks (mostly because they're either incorporeal or swarms) or can hover out of reach. Actually being able to kill it at that CR is challenging though. Shadows and Allips don't work, a Mummy's disease attack doesn't work, no damage is nearly high enough to overcome the DR or regeneration. A cockatrice could petrify the Tarrasque but it would take a natural 20 attack roll followed by a natural 1 saving throw.

So 1 in 400 Cockatrice attacks kill a Tarrasque? There's no 'I'm a boss monster so I choose to auto-save?' I mean, if 1/400 attacks work AFTER the 5th 'auto-save', that's probably a lot different because the Tarrasque probably won't be attacked by 6 different Cockatrices on a given day...

1 in 400 cockatrice attacks petrify a Tarrasque, but to deliver that attack they have to survive a Tarrasque's attack-of-opportunity for closing inside its natural reach, which is another 1-in-20 chance.

I'm pretty sure maglag is talking about the allip, which does ability drain (and not ability damage which the Tarrasque is immune to).

Oh, I guess allips do work. Some wire in my brain got crossed and assumed that energy drain and ability drain were the same thing.

Pixels wrote:Oh, I guess allips do work. Some wire in my brain got crossed and assumed that energy drain and ability drain were the same thing.

Ah, yes. I was remembering their 4 HD and misremembering them as CR 4 instead of 3. I had to use some to take down a dragon, once.

angelfromanotherpin wrote: I'm pretty sure maglag is talking about the allip, which does ability drain (and not ability damage which the Tarrasque is immune to).

Correct, have an internet cookie!

Extra lulzy because in 3e the tarrasque has 0% chances of victory. The best case scenario is a permanent draw if the allip rolls natural 1s on their attacks forever, but otherwise the godzilla wannabe is powerless in their supposed field of expertise (melee) against a mere CR 3 monster from the same book.

"What's the lowest CR you can kill a tarrasque at" is kind of a dumb parlor debate anyway.

I'm more troubled by how 5E D&D has a PC capable of casting 9th level spells at CR 17, minimum, while you can find CR13 creatures capable of casting 9th level spells. It's extra-ironic because simplified 5E NPCs don't have all of the class tchotchke that PCs do but by-and-large operate by the same rules. However, the stuff they don't have (to justify the lower CR for their super-spellcasting or attack routine) tends to not make up for the reduction in CR. And even then, they often get non-PC abilities that more than make up for their lack of class features. The CR4 Hobgoblin Devastator from Volo's is probably the most cogent example (they get a feature that adds 2d6 to all spell damage rolls, no question), but it's far from the only one.

maglag wrote:Correct, have an internet cookie!

Extra lulzy because in 3e the tarrasque has 0% chances of victory. The best case scenario is a permanent draw if the allip rolls natural 1s on their attacks forever, but otherwise the godzilla wannabe is powerless in their supposed field of expertise (melee) against a mere CR 3 monster from the same book.

The tarrasque has a 50% chance to hit the allip with any given attack, and a single bite attack is pretty likely to kill it even with 10 or 15 points of temp hp. It's still pretty much a coin flip which isn't a ringing endorsement of WotC design, but it's not quite as dire as you're saying.

The Tarrasque's natural weapons count as magical (indeed, epic) for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, but not for striking incorporeal, so the general 'immunity to all nonmagical attack forms' kicks in.

... Huh. I'd never noticed that before. So the tarrasque is indeed helpless against any incorporeal foe. Goddammit WotC.

Don't forget anything with a fly speed and a ranged attack.

You'd think giving Godzilla a magical breath weapon would be an obvious thing to do, but apparently you'd be wrong.

A proper Civilization wrecking abomination (like the Tarrasque's fluff say it is) needs at very least the properties of a ghost touch weapon/armor and some kind of godzilla breath. Because of course the Civilizations it's supposed to be threatening have access to both ethereal monsters and flight. This should be obvious, but for some reason, it isn't.

The many printed versions of the Tarrasque are like Exhibit #1 of how the D&D designers don't know their own game.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:"What's the lowest CR you can kill a tarrasque at" is kind of a dumb parlor debate anyway.

I'm more troubled by how 5E D&D has a PC capable of casting 9th level spells at CR 17, minimum, while you can find CR13 creatures capable of casting 9th level spells. It's extra-ironic because simplified 5E NPCs don't have all of the class tchotchke that PCs do but by-and-large operate by the same rules. However, the stuff they don't have (to justify the lower CR for their super-spellcasting or attack routine) tends to not make up for the reduction in CR. And even then, they often get non-PC abilities that more than make up for their lack of class features. The CR4 Hobgoblin Devastator from Volo's is probably the most cogent example (they get a feature that adds 2d6 to all spell damage rolls, no question), but it's far from the only one.

It is weird. The published CR system takes little notice of spells at all, and the Archmage in the MM is the perfect example of the problem you mention. It's CR13 17th level wizard, and the only reason it doesn't flatten thirteenth level parties is the spell selection is made of ass. A couple evocations and huge pool of defensive spells it can't stack. A couple spell swaps, and it would brutalize parties.

They just don't seem to understand how abilities work, either. A cockatrice is far more dangerous than basilisks or medusas despite the big CR gulf (cocks are CR 1/4), simply because of how their abilities work. For the bigger monsters, their gaze attack just means they have a defensive advantage- you have to take disadvantage on strikes to be immune to turn to stone (and getting any advantage negates that penalty, so it isn't a big deal). But cockatrices force saves with every hit, so without alphastriking and burning them all down before they act, any fight with cockatrices is a huge risk regardless of level, even with the double save bullshit. Every villain should have attack cockatrices on hoof for the huge psychological threat they are.

The CR system is literally just centered around monster HP, AC, and attack bonuses. It's why mages with PC casting are always under-CR (A CR4 Warlock of the Archfey can use Conjure Fey for a CR 6 creature, uh huh) and why bruiser NPCs meant to represent martial classes are over-CR.

At any rate, I don't see anything salvageable in 5E D&D compared to 3E D&D. There isn't, unlike 4E D&D, anything even particularly new from the edition other than 'bounded accuracy'. If they were going to do a 6E D&D and had the game branch entirely off of 3E D&D, no one would even know as long as they put in some insignificant ribbon bullshit like copypasting the 5E D&D spellcaster charter, the expanded races, and subclasses.

Lago PARANOIA wrote: I'm more troubled by how 5E D&D has a PC capable of casting 9th level spells at CR 17, minimum, while you can find CR13 creatures capable of casting 9th level spells.

Efreeti (9th level spell at CR 8) and Nightmare (9th level spells at CR 5) from 3e say hi.

Please stop being glib. The efreeti can only give wishes to nongenies. It will not meaningfully be a factor unless the DM is specifically trying to screw you. The Nightmare's astral projection is more troublesome, but it doesn't translate into TPK like being able to cast Wish or Simulacrum. Just 'ha ha you didn't get me, sucker'.

5E D&D underrates every NPC with PC-like spellcasting constantly. Take a look at their spell lists of any and every caster in the MM, Tales of the Yawning Portal, or Volo's that has at least third level spells. They are always undercounted by at least 3 CR points relative to PCs. And some of them, like the various Warlocks of X and Hobgoblin Devastator, get additional abilities on top of spellcasting that's not reflected in their undercounted CR.

Well, given the way the CR system is supposed to work, the principle that a CR 13 creature can cast higher level spells isn't terrible (as they have to match a 4 person party).

The problem is, as with a lot of things, they overblow the difference to a ridiculous degree. CR numbers are so ridiculous on regular basis that they might as well not exist. It reminds me of the encounter advice for 2nd edition- where the important factor in the encounter table is the rarity of the monster (and the terrain), and there is a loose table corresponding critter XP values to dungeon levels (and sort of PC levels) and it stops at 10.

But what's really required is the DM knows the monsters backwards and forwards and knows the capabilities of the party and can keep things from getting too easy or too hard... which frankly most can't do.

The issue that there are various specific monsters in 3rd edition with specific abilities that match up weird is an ultimately minor issue. The Shadow Over The Sun is a problem that is actually quite easy to handwave away because there aren't a lot of incorpreal or spawning monsters. The DM can look at the Shadow and the chicken farm and just say "No." and move the fuck on with the game.

The fact that there is nothing in 5th edition that can win a standup fight with a couple dozen randos with crossbows is a much bigger problem. The fundamental question of why we rely on heroes at all remains unanswered. The guards of any random market town can put down any kraken, demon, or dragon that causes trouble. What are 5th edition protagonists even for?

-Username17

FrankTrollman wrote:The fact that there is nothing in 5th edition that can win a standup fight with a couple dozen randos with crossbows is a much bigger problem. The fundamental question of why we rely on heroes at all remains unanswered.

Judging by the fact that the only people who CAN consistently stand up to a couple dozen randos with crossbows are mid-to-high level PCs or monsters with PC-like abilities, I think that the endgame of 5E D&D heroism isn't law enforcement but the brute accumulation of power until you become an invincible horror movie character like Freddie.

While randos with crossbows can take down Pit Fiends, an arbitrarily large number of them can't exactly take down reasonably smart spellcaster PCs/NPCs. There's just too many counter-measures if you dig through the PHB. True Polymorph into something immune to weapons, Demiplane + Clone for infinite one-ups, Astral Projection for risk-free adventuring, etc. It doesn't actually matter that the Mongol Archer can move 180 ft. away and pick off a target with disadvantage with their longbows; the adventurer can just keep stalking them until they die. They run out of arrows, they or the horse gets tired, they run into bad terrain, they get flanked by a third party or by allies, or the adventurer finds their community or camp and torches it until the Mongol Archer is forced to confront them. The 'battle' just lasts for hours or even days instead of seconds.

Once we establish that, the anti-Mongol Archer problem goes from an action adventure scene to a slasher movie as a small team of adventurers makes themselves immune to the rebel alliance and picks them off one-by-one over a period of weeks. The reason why society trains up adventurers, at least spellcasting ones, is to speed up the process of killing Mongol Archers.

Do high end monsters have ways to AoE mobs of archers?

FrankTrollman wrote:The issue that there are various specific monsters in 3rd edition with specific abilities that match up weird is an ultimately minor issue. The Shadow Over The Sun is a problem that is actually quite easy to handwave away because there aren't a lot of incorpreal or spawning monsters. The DM can look at the Shadow and the chicken farm and just say "No." and move the fuck on with the game.

The fact that there is nothing in 5th edition that can win a standup fight with a couple dozen randos with crossbows is a much bigger problem. The fundamental question of why we rely on heroes at all remains unanswered. The guards of any random market town can put down any kraken, demon, or dragon that causes trouble. What are 5th edition protagonists even for?

-Username17

To hunt down the demons and dragons and krakens that use hit and run tactics instead of suicide charging fortress markets.

In one side this allows markets to exist instead of the campaign being a wasteland dominated by demons and dragons because those were already there before the first humanoid gained a level.

In the other side your hobo horde will get themselves killed if they try to hunt down the dragon demon to their volcano lair. You need to be heat resistant and be able to fight in tight corridors full of turns. Probably filled with traps. Dungeons probably.

Off of the top of my head, here are some ways that PC spellcasters can deal with Mongol Archers:

An illusionist wizard can cast Mirage Arcana (which fills a 1-mile cube) and use Malleable Illusions + Illusory Reality to throw all of the Mongol Archers into a lake or a labyrinth.

Planar Binding is back baby. It's good again! Awoooou (wolf howl). You can use Conjure Elemental to create Invisible Stalkers or Earth Elementals and have them ambush said archers. If you're a druid, you can use Summon Woodland Beings to create a large number of Ambush Pixies to go invisible and pick off the Mongol Archers with Sleep or Polymorph.

You have Dream to kill off the Mongol Archers from your safe hidey-hole. This will take a long time, but you can use Scrying or whatever to identify the Rebel Leaders and kill off the low-level ones.

Who says you can't get in on the Mongol Archer action? You're a bard and you have Animal Shapes AND Animate/Create Undead. You can Animal Shape mounts out of half (or fewer) of the undead, load up the rest with Longbows, and enjoy the show. If you have Wish you can use that instead.

Or if you don't want Mongol Archer goodness, you can just be lazy use Animal Shapes for a flock of Giant Eagles, or even better, Quetzalcoatus. They have a fat enough HP stack to catch up to any horse archers after a few of them go down. And Animal Shapes doesn't have an upward limit on creatures.

You can also use Sympathy to get the Mongol Archers to cluster. The 'draws people in' effect of Sympathy works by range OR by sight. So dust off your Monty Python references, and you basically do this:

5E Bandit King: With our 5000-man strong band of mounted archers, there's nothing even the hordes of hell can do!
Bandits: Huzzah!
15th level Illusionist Wizard: That's nice. Hey, I need your entire army of elves, humans, half-orcs, halflings, and dwarves to stare at these five Major Images of me banging your wives for the next hour.
Bandits: Sweet. That could be cool. Whoa, is that a Sympathy spell? Gnarly.
[Illusionist Wizard casually casts Mirage Arcana over the next ten minutes to create a ravine to dump all of the bandits into.]
Goblin Bandit: At least me and Gobbo Bobbo lived.
[Wizard uses Malleable Illusions to dump the rest of the goblins into a new ravine.]