The Gaming Den

... Except for Clerics and Wizards. Because they're good enough.

Everyone else gets a Domain of their choice if they worship a matching deity.

Each spell slot is cast 1/day.

The Domain ability works as normal, granting Turn Undead if it would otherwise enhance it.

I'm just going to mentally add Druids to your exceptions. Along with everyone else that gets level 9 spells.

How about not just giving spells to everyone to try to fix people that don't get spells?

It's a lovely thought, and one that gave us the Tomes. The catch is fixing fighters without just giving them spells is a lot of WORK, most of which will end up with at least some sort of ability that emulates the effect of one spell or another just because it's something you really can't live without. Be it death ward/mind blank, teleport/plane shift, or even just protection from evil, magic does everything, and not having magic in 3rd edition is just playing tag with your shoelaces tied together.

Even the ever-vaunted roles of being the strong guy, the agile guy, or the tough guy are supplanted by the Synthesist Summoner, the Beguiler, and the Psion. People WANT to play Boromir, but at the end of the day you die like a fucking chump to a bunch of orcs because one of them had a bow and you took Greater Weapon Specialization: Greatsword and thought you'd be okay.

Zaranthan wrote:I'm just going to mentally add Druids to your exceptions. Along with everyone else that gets level 9 spells.

Yes, I forgot. Those too.

Maybe just make a blanket list of "everyone that casts spells up to 9th level", which excludes Paladins and Rangers (and those other ones such as Bards)

Hardly an expert, but that seems an interesting idea...also a good way of having religions involved beyond clerics if everyone got a benefit.

Though, isn't that a lot like telling everyone to multiclass, or giving them a free cleric level? Again, an interesting idea.

Are you also doing a thing so the DCs are based on whatever your highest stat is? That way offensive spells would be usable.

radthemad4 wrote:Once per day abilities make me sad.

Are you also doing a thing so the DCs are based on whatever your highest stat is? That way offensive spells are usable.

Sure. Not just Wisdom.

Although, a mana system would be perfect.

And standardized caster spell save DC stats.

An other option: Don't allow supernatural characters below level CR 6. Don't allow mundane characters beyond level 5.

It's an interesting idea but I really don't think it goes far enough. As Judging__Eagle and Zaranthan note, just make everyone magic instead of trying to fix martials by throwing them a bone.

(Of course, you have to nerf the prime magic users in order to distribute the magic equally among the classes. Tear down the arcane bourgeois)

Cervantes wrote:It's an interesting idea but I really don't think it goes far enough. As Judging__Eagle and Zaranthan note, just make everyone magic instead of trying to fix martials by throwing them a bone.

Aaaaaaaaaand we're back at Earthdawn again. For all the things it didn't get right, still, what a great game...

An other factor is that in D&D's own in-game mechanics and subsequent narrative, "human" (even Olympic/genius level) achievements are about the same as those of a level 5 human character. Once a human reaches level 6+, nothing they're doing is able to pass as "natural."

Furthermore, by level ten, a fighter can pummel granite with their pinky finger, and are undeniably somewhere within "supernatural" territory.

So, if the basic combat mechanics of the d20 engine say: "level 1-5 is 'human'; level 6+ is superhuman; level 10+ is superheroic"; then the rest of the game should keep that in mind throughout the rest of its design.

One caveat on "no supernaturals below level 5": just because "spellcasters" should be "mundane" at level 1-5 doesn't mean they can't have a wide variety of "mundane" abilities and options that looks like magic to the ignorant & uneducated. D&D does support this theme by the fact that the arcane focus or regents for many arcane spells are basically chemistry & science in-jokes means that there could very well be lots of things that a "mundane wizard" should be able to contribute towards helping the party.

Making all level 1-3 spells into "techniques" that characters get access based off of their skill ranks might help giving non-arete characters ways to contribute until they can create dimension portals with their minds, and walls of iron out of a pile of 50 gp.

I don't think you need to avoid having 'spells' at low levels. I think you need to think carefully about what those spells do and how they work. Since anything can be justified by 'magic', everything IS. There is no skill in the game that cannot be completely replaced by a low-level spell and that's probably a shame.

I think D&D needs a much stronger 'metaphysical' description of what magic is and what it can do. Wish is the worst offender. Is magic intelligent and capable of understanding (or MISunderstanding) a request? A spell like 'dancing sword' seems to imply an intelligence 'controlling' the magic - those types of spells ought to be explicitly based on the caster's concentration or controlled by an elemental force. Magic probably shouldn't be able to make you smarter or wiser. It probably shouldn't make you more easily able to influence people. If it is, it should be very clear how it does it. If 'glibness' is only unlocking abilities you already possess then there should be a non-magical way to unlock that ability (like drinking copious amounts of alcohol).

Tannhäuser wrote:How about not just giving spells to everyone to try to fix people that don't get spells?

Aaaand that was quick, it only took three posts for someone to AGAIN making this into yet another Fighter thread. Does that mean he "lost" considering Fighters threads are the Den's Godwin?

Dogbert wrote:

Tannhäuser wrote:How about not just giving spells to everyone to try to fix people that don't get spells?

Aaaand that was quick, it only took three posts for someone to AGAIN making this into yet another Fighter thread. Does that mean he "lost" considering Fighters threads are the Den's Godwin?

Not in the least, since Godwin's law only stipulates that Hitler comparisons will eventually happen in any thread that lasts long enough. There are vague rumours that LiveJournal had another law in which invoking Hitler made you lose the argument, but I happen to disagree rather strongly with it after someone tried to shut me down for comparing a foreign policy of "kill all drow and all descendants of drow on sight with no attempt at negotiation or even intimidation or brainwashing" to the Nazi regime (instead of trying to nitpick the flaws in said comparison).

But I digress. Yeah I think advocating against the very concept of the thread is inherently not helpful.

Dogbert wrote:Aaaand that was quick, it only took three posts for someone to AGAIN making this into yet another Fighter thread. Does that mean he "lost" considering Fighters threads are the Den's Godwin?

Any thread about giving spells to people that don't cast spells is already a Fighter thread.

I'm not seeing how handing out domains to everyone is going to be better than all the SLA feats people were making, and I thought that those were a poor idea to begin with. I doubt there is going to any easy solution that makes weapon-based characters scale with the rest of the party that actually holds up in play.

There's an entire forum here for getting opinions on new classes, instead of repeatedly spitballing ONE WEIRD TRICK to fix a big problem in the game.

The fact is, under D&D 3.x rules it's a little bizarre that only wizards get magic. I mean, obviously they get 'spell slots' and that powers their spells, but the explanation for it is that they study rituals. If you move your hands *thus* and utter these incantations *thus* the previously 'prepared portion' is triggered and is cast. Anyone should be able to study a spell book and learn SOME spells.

Spell slots may be a sacred cow, but that's probably the worst explanation. My kids were watching Kung Fu Panda 3 last night (and honestly, the whole series is pretty solid - you could do worse) and those movies already figured out that 'chi' is something that everyone has and it can be used to 'superpower' martial attacks and it can do 'magical' things. If you make magic a resource that everyone has access to in greater or lesser degrees (like feats are in 3.x) and you provide martial powers and magical power, martial characters will have high-level martial abilities. And if they opt for a 'straight magic ability', SO WHAT? If they've already got 'leap of the clouds' then it's not nearly such a huge leap for the players to accept 'dimensional step' and later 'plane shift'. In fact, in Kung Fu Panda 3, dimensional travel to the Spirit Realm is a major plot-point.

deaddmwalking wrote: Spell slots may be a sacred cow, but that's probably the worst explanation. My kids were watching Kung Fu Panda 3 last night (and honestly, the whole series is pretty solid - you could do worse) and those movies already figured out that 'chi' is something that everyone has and it can be used to 'superpower' martial attacks and it can do 'magical' things. If you make magic a resource that everyone has access to in greater or lesser degrees (like feats are in 3.x) and you provide martial powers and magical power, martial characters will have high-level martial abilities. And if they opt for a 'straight magic ability', SO WHAT? If they've already got 'leap of the clouds' then it's not nearly such a huge leap for the players to accept 'dimensional step' and later 'plane shift'. In fact, in Kung Fu Panda 3, dimensional travel to the Spirit Realm is a major plot-point.

I saw "the Sorcerer and the White Snake" starring Jet Li and it's a prime example of blending Asian martial arts with spell casting.

Western neckbeards all want to be Gandalf and that's that.

JonSetanta wrote:

deaddmwalking wrote: Spell slots may be a sacred cow, but that's probably the worst explanation. My kids were watching Kung Fu Panda 3 last night (and honestly, the whole series is pretty solid - you could do worse) and those movies already figured out that 'chi' is something that everyone has and it can be used to 'superpower' martial attacks and it can do 'magical' things. If you make magic a resource that everyone has access to in greater or lesser degrees (like feats are in 3.x) and you provide martial powers and magical power, martial characters will have high-level martial abilities. And if they opt for a 'straight magic ability', SO WHAT? If they've already got 'leap of the clouds' then it's not nearly such a huge leap for the players to accept 'dimensional step' and later 'plane shift'. In fact, in Kung Fu Panda 3, dimensional travel to the Spirit Realm is a major plot-point.

I saw "the Sorcerer and the White Snake" starring Jet Li and it's a prime example of blending Asian martial arts with spell casting.

Western neckbeards all want to be Gandalf and that's that.

Gandalf used a sword.

He stabbed people.

He stabbed people more often than he cast spells.

He stabbed people so often that he even gave his sword a name, Glamdring, which means Foe-hammer.

He also had a magic horse, Shadowfax, the Lord of all Horses.

Also, he's literally an angel.

Gandalf wasn't a D&D Wizard.

He's a Solar with Paladin with a long beard and a staff who likes to smoke something called pipe-weed who uses his SLAs powers to fake being a wizard.

hyzmarca wrote:He's a Solar with Paladin with a long beard and a staff who likes to smoke something called pipe-weed who uses his SLAs powers to fake being a wizard.

Well he's definitely not a Paladin; he blithely lies and cheats and disrespects legitimate authority. Also, a lot of what he does seems to involve legitimately arcane knowledge of the world acquired through study, it's just that the distinction between when he's doing that and when he's using angel powers and when he's using the Ring of Fire is rarely clear.

deaddmwalking wrote:The fact is, under D&D 3.x rules it's a little bizarre that only wizards get magic.

It's not an edition problem because d&d's problem is not on a mechanics level, but a conceptual one. The whole concept of d&d revolves around the game that the world must have both Haves and Have Nots (i.e fighters and wizards).

You have two ways to change it, either "Magic for everyone" (exalted) or "Magic for no one" (4E, ass world), but regardless of which route you take, the resulting narrative is no longer going to be d&d.

angelfromanotherpin wrote:

hyzmarca wrote:He's a Solar with Paladin with a long beard and a staff who likes to smoke something called pipe-weed who uses his SLAs powers to fake being a wizard.

Well he's definitely not a Paladin; he blithely lies and cheats and disrespects legitimate authority. Also, a lot of what he does seems to involve legitimately arcane knowledge of the world acquired through study, it's just that the distinction between when he's doing that and when he's using angel powers and when he's using the Ring of Fire is rarely clear.

I'd argue more that it doesn't matter when he's doing which thing, since he predates D&D by decades and the author had a very different mindset (to put it kindly).

Just like attaching Hong Kong cinema tropes or or just bolting on spells to everything, it's an argument that is obviously going to be horrendously dissatisfying and contentious.

Voss wrote: Just like attaching Hong Kong cinema tropes or or just bolting on spells to everything, it's an argument that is obviously going to be horrendously dissatisfying and contentious.

psssssssssssh

A more pressing issue for this idea specifically is that individual domains are rarely balanced, and pretty much never balanced across multiple levels. There are no domains I can think of that give level appropriate abilities at low, medium, and high levels. Clerics are able to be effective by voltroning "builds" where they use domains that provide good abilities at level X to cover for holes in their other domains.

The Animal Domain gives the monster slaying antilife shell at 6th, and fucking shapechange of all things at 9th, but the first level spell is calm animals, which is a spell I have never seen or heard of being cast to any effect. On the other end of the scale, the fucking Plant Domain gives you entangle at 1st and Wall of Thorns at 5th, but it gets way worse after that, and the capstone spell summons 4 Shambling Mounds, which is something you don't actually wipe your ass with as 17th level characters.

-Username17

There is no quick fix for 3.X's balance issues. If you want balanced classes, you have to pick a balance point, copy however many classes from core there are that actually hit that balance point and whose flavor you're okay with, and then you need to write new classes to fill in all the conceptual gaps and beef up the class list back to the neighborhood of twelve classes. There is no fix for the Fighter that will also work on the Bard and the Monk.