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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lokathor wrote:
Problem (maybe): Due to the way that Resistance Tests work, it's impossible to activate a power and end up with exactly zero net hits. For most powers at least. Unlike with skill checks and attacks, the resistance test doesn't set the threshold, it reduces the hits, and then the threshold is almost always zero, but then zero hits makes the power fail.

So, I dunno what to do about that one, but it seems weird.


I thought this was a question of order of operations, but it seems like a mechanic designed for "tough"/"willful" targets to be able to not only absorb, but even blot out, effects that target them.
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Lokathor
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's fine that you can resist a power entirely.

What's weird is that powers that target a threshold can activate with 0 net hits, but powers that target a resistance roll can't activate with 0 net hits. They activate with at least 1 net hit, or they don't activate at all. That's what makes them weird.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

With a resisted power there are two people rolling dice. Only one of them can succeed if the same number of hits are rolled, because both players made their threshold. Since the resistance is rolled second, that's the one which is succeeding at threshold zero.

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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lokathor wrote:
It's fine that you can resist a power entirely.

What's weird is that powers that target a threshold can activate with 0 net hits, but powers that target a resistance roll can't activate with 0 net hits. They activate with at least 1 net hit, or they don't activate at all. That's what makes them weird.


Oh, okay. That does seem odd. I'm not really familiar with any powers that can activate with 0 net hits though, which ones brought this to your attention in the first place?

I'm not sure I understand Frank's explanation though. Okay, so Frank explained why resisted effects fail on 0 hits (i.e. Resistance is tested after a Target endures and Effect). Which still leaves effects that can succeed at threshold 0 seeming odd.
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Lokathor
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

An example is using Purify The Mind to remove a "life damaging phobia", threshold 2, and then rolling 2 hits. The spell works and there are zero net hits to stage down the time with.

It's not the worst, just something to keep in mind when using net hits as a spell effect modifier.

I will try to do some more magic editing some time soon.
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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The example of "zero net hits" makes sense now. You're not counting the "Threshold" or "Hits" going to zero, but rather that there are no hits after reaching the casting threshold was reached; so... no bonus effects for having hits above the minimum threshold.

Perhaps adding a descriptor for what happens when a creature reaches net hits; and what is staged up/down for bonus hits?
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Cervantes
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Gonna push this thread up to note some terminology suggestions and raise a question about how to display information about Discipline Skill/Stat recommendations.

Remove spells as a category of powers. Powers that were not spells before (passive powers) are now intrinsic powers.

As noted in the "Troubled Design" thread, it should be more apparent which Disciplines correspond to which skills (and to which stats as well). To add onto that, there should probably be some overall idea as to how to divide up disciplines between skills/stats and how that would proceed.

My first foray into that is here (built on top of Lokathor's draft of a new Magic chapter), where I give "recommended dicepools" to the Astral Disciplines (in a very confusing and shoddy manner, sorry). The fact that stats and skills are combined means you can't just say "do logic or intuition here, then do some of these skills" because players might maximize logic and those skills and find out that they're Intuition+Skill checks.

Something like Frank's tables in Troubled Design might be good but ideally we could pare it down even more to just general recommendations.

e: Oh, and I overestimated the degree to which players would want to "complete" a Discipline by learning all of the powers as opposed to just grabbing whatever they thought was cool.


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Grek
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've been working toward a rewrite of the powers for AS2. Here's my current draft, if anyone wants to steal ideas.


The supernatural abilities of a character are divided into a number of Disciplines. Each Discipline has a name (such as Celerity, Necromancy or Names of the Blasphemies), a type (Astral, Infernal, Umbral or Universal) and contains a number of Powers. A Power may be a Talent, a Sorcery or Innate, and will often include certain tags which indicate special rules for using the power in question. Multiple tags often apply. Simply use all of the special rules for all of the tags a power has. The most common tags are listed below:
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But more importantly if you elevate jerkishness into a principle, if you try to undermine the rules that keep niceness, community, and civilization going, the defenses against social cancer then your movement will fracture, it will be hugely embarrassing, the atmosphere will become toxic, unpopular people will be thrown to the mob, everyone but the thickest-skinned will bow out, and the people you need to convince will view you with a mixture of terror and loathing.


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Mord
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Grek wrote:
The May be Permanent tag indicates that a character may (but is not required to) gain the power as an "Permanent" power when they learn it. If a character purchases a power as "Permanent, it defaults to being active cannot be turned off. An example of this would be a Ghost's Empty Body - ghosts don't have a choice about being incorporeal, they simply are. Once this sort of Power is gained, the choice as to whether it will be Permanent or not can only be changed by performing a Power Ritual.

Shouldn't this be "May be Innate"? The term "Permanent" isn't used anywhere else.

Keeping track of the distinctions between sorceries, enchantments, innates, etc. really begs for a table.
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Lokathor
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In my draft i wanted to use "Instant" for cast and done spells, and "Enchantment" for cast and last spells. Except I didn't want two things that had a name starting with 'I', and at the time I was using "intrinsic" over "passive".

But yeah, the fundamental powers mostly need to be broken down as:
  • Never dispelled (not many of these but there are some important ones)
  • Lasting and can be dispelled or countered
  • Non-lasting and can be countered (what DnD calls "Instantaneous")

    If a creature has a never-ends version of a power that feels like more a thing that's a property of a creature. We can have general rules for lasting powers being never-ends in some cases, but I dont think we should have individual powers making up their own individual rules for it if we can avoid that.
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    Cervantes
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    PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Can players even learn Innate/Passive/Intrinsic (lol yikes) Disciplines without something happening to them?

    Keeping a Spell/Talent distinction makes sense if Spells require you to read a dusty tome or have a wizard teach you it.
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    Lokathor
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    PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    So, in "RAW" After Sundown you need an advancement tarot card to learn a power, and if the power is non-universal you also need a teacher or book to learn it.

    My re-written magic chapter did not take a stance on that changing. We could change it if we want. Personally i think that if you have a card, needing a teacher or not should kinda be up to the group (same way that having magic words to cast magic kinda changes the tone and should probably be up to the group).

    As to if passive powers are learnable at all, sure. Things like Patience of The Mountains, Bite of The Serpent, Walk of Flame.
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    Grek
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    PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    @Mord: Innate and Permanent are two slightly different things. Innate powers are stuff like Will to Power, Clinging and Fire Walking. You learn the power and it gives you a permanent passive benefit. May be Permanent is for things like Empty Body, Giant Size and Light of Ennui - Vow of Silence-breaking things that are normally activated, but which certain weird individuals have an always-on version of. But yes, a table would be good.
    TagRequires Training?Detection?Dispelling?Obviously Magical?Supernatural Weakness?
    AstralN/AMagnets.Salt.N/AN/A
    InfernalN/AWater.Sand.N/AN/A
    UmbralN/AFlowers.Seeds.N/AN/A
    TalentOnly if from different power source.No.No.No, but may draw attention.Disables this power.
    SorceryTeacher or spellbook.Yes.Yes. Increases casting TN.Always.Disables this power.
    InnateOnly for non-starting powers.Only during Ritual.TN 3 during Ritual only.Only during Ritual.Only blocks Ritual.
    EnchantmentN/A; see the other tag.Yes, but at +1 TN.Yes. TN 3 to remove.Maybe.Unaffected.

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    But more importantly if you elevate jerkishness into a principle, if you try to undermine the rules that keep niceness, community, and civilization going, the defenses against social cancer then your movement will fracture, it will be hugely embarrassing, the atmosphere will become toxic, unpopular people will be thrown to the mob, everyone but the thickest-skinned will bow out, and the people you need to convince will view you with a mixture of terror and loathing.


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    Cervantes
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    PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    I think you could dispel Talents - you're basically cutting off their connection to their power source. So a War Formed werewolf could be forced back to normal by throwing Salt on them. The Talent/Sorcery distinction is good to me although I imagine that the question with them isn't "Magical?" but rather "Supernatural?", in which case a Talent like War Form or Giant Form is just as problematic as a ball of fire.

    The "Power Ritual" idea is interesting. It does add some rules complexity but it makes sense to me. Gives a bit more of a handle on the whole "monster christening" thing too, I like being able to detect Vampires being made and whatnot.

    I don't really like the whole Tarot Card advancement system but people have mostly been running AS games as one-shots so far so I don't know if I have enough data to comment on that. As I've noted in the Discord I'm gonna run a one-shot for some people IRL in a week and so I'll post a report on how that ends up.
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    Lokathor
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    PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    The Tarot Cards are okay but the karma system for it is mostly dumb. Players pretty much aren't going to actually bid against each other, so everyone spends 1 karma for every card. Maybe that's just my players.

    The thing where you get a special bonus to give to anyone except yourself is really neat though. If that can stay in somehow that'd be good.

    It might be more like a gamble and have more of a point to all the karma tokens if you didn't draw all the cards before you had people bid or not on different cards. I'm not sure that would make players happier though.

    Grek: Magic should be simpler, not more complex. If I could make the system even simpler than I already have it in my rewrite then I'd do that. The rules should be as plain and simple as possible while still supporting a fun gameplay. I really don't think that adding a pile of tags and charts will help the game.
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    Whipstitch
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    PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Lokathor wrote:
    The Tarot Cards are okay but the karma system for it is mostly dumb. Players pretty much aren't going to actually bid against each other, so everyone spends 1 karma for every card. Maybe that's just my players.


    Collusion is 100% kosher and to be expected. Outbidding isn't there to be common or interesting, it's to provide a hammer when people can't agree rather than just writing down "Decide among yourselves" and hoping for the best.
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    koz
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    PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Whipstitch wrote:
    Lokathor wrote:
    The Tarot Cards are okay but the karma system for it is mostly dumb. Players pretty much aren't going to actually bid against each other, so everyone spends 1 karma for every card. Maybe that's just my players.


    Collusion is 100% kosher and to be expected. Outbidding isn't there to be common or interesting, it's to provide a hammer when people can't agree rather than just writing down "Decide among yourselves" and hoping for the best.


    I agree - this is a feature, not a bug.
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    Lokathor
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    PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    I understand that it's good when players get along, but if they're going to get along then the whole ceremony with going around the table and a person picking a card and then people saying that they're not going to bid on it and then going again for the next card, that's usually pretty pointless mucking about. Particularly given that it's fiddly stuff that you do when you're already wrapping up and everyone is getting ready to go.
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    Judging__Eagle
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    PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    You can also have people spend karma at the beginning of a session. Players colluding is pretty much expected.

    One alternative I've seen is for players to be able to spend varying amounts of karma to flat out "buy" the equivalent of a card. The minor arcana are 1/2-1; while major arcana are 3-4. It wasn't my system, but I've gone along with it because it makes character progression take less game time; although it also removes the randomness of the Tarot progression mechanic (which tbh, I really liked b/c it makes character growth feel more organic).
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    Cervantes
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    PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Has anyone taken the "get rid of Perception+Animal Ken+Sabotage and plan for skill soft classes" thing on yet? There's http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=487902#487902 which is a good reference for what the initial Disciplines would look like.

    I'm imagining each Discipline having 1-2 Stats and 3-4 Skills that are relevant to them, although there are some caveats. Some Disciplines are "single stat" bonus ones like Symphony of Silence (Logic) and Play of the Shadows (Intuition) while some Disciplines are kitchen-sink flavor ones like Path of Blood where Forensics (Logic) sits next to Acidic Blood (Strength) and Suck Blood (Logic or Agility). And that's just stats, not even looking into Skills.
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    Grek
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    PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Lokathor wrote:
    I really don't think that adding a pile of tags and charts will help the game.


    This is because you are bad at writing games.

    Tags do not complicate the game. They take concepts which already exist in the rules and give them single world labels that you can organize the powers on your character sheet by and reference with a minimum of fuss. After Sundown should have Talents and Sorceries and Enchantments for the same reason that Dungeons and Dragons has Bursts and Cones and Permanent Effects.

    Charts do not complicate the game. They assist with learning and remembering the rules by turning a page of text into a visual reminder that can fit onto an index card. Having a chart reminding people what does what does not add any extra rules, it simply offers a quick reference for people flipping to that page in the PDF.

    Making the rules simple does not mean minimizing the word count or rewriting everything in essay format. It means having a short list of global rules which interact in specific and well understood ways. It means presenting those global rules in whatever way makes players best able to remember them when they come up. It means starting abstract and zooming in to the specific. It means not missing the forest for the trees.

    The current magic chapter is like a catalog of baseball players arranged by batting average and dick length. It's certainly comprehensive, but it doesn't present the rules that you need to know to play the game in any sort of comprehensible fashion. And so you end up with prospective players taking a curveball to the dick and then packing up and going home.
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    But more importantly if you elevate jerkishness into a principle, if you try to undermine the rules that keep niceness, community, and civilization going, the defenses against social cancer then your movement will fracture, it will be hugely embarrassing, the atmosphere will become toxic, unpopular people will be thrown to the mob, everyone but the thickest-skinned will bow out, and the people you need to convince will view you with a mixture of terror and loathing.


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    Whipstitch
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    PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Lokathor wrote:
    I understand that it's good when players get along, but if they're going to get along then the whole ceremony with going around the table and a person picking a card and then people saying that they're not going to bid on it and then going again for the next card, that's usually pretty pointless mucking about.


    Problem there is that games where you just plop all the cards in front of everyone and then have people decide on what is best for whom has never been very fast in my experience, either, and if it's not faster in the best of times then there's no excuse for grinding to a halt when people don't agree. The other alternatives I can think of remove even more choice in some manner or go back to players having locked-in builds where advancement is basically a downtime activity like in D&D. Honestly, I find bothering to rename playing cards or buying a tarot deck clunkier than the bidding part.
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    Lokathor
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    PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Whipstitch: I can only speak from my personal experience playing with people around a table. I tried to do the whole bidding deal, but after doing all that twice it became clear that [it was pointless and I switched to] just throwing down cards (either large or small depending on accomplishment that day) and saying "everyone gets one you decide among yourselves". Maybe I somehow know a group that's more selfless and harmonious, but I don't think so.

    Grek: Of course I'm bad at writing games, but I don't think you are any better. Obviously there are a lot of directions that you can take After Sundown's design, but my question to you is how much you've actually played it with a group of people. I've run three different After Sundown groups with slightly different people each time. I've also been a player in a solo one-shot. I know several RPG systems well enough to play them comfortably, and among them the only thing that After Sundown does particularly well is getting players from a blank sheet to playing fairly quickly. You can get a group where half the players have never even played a tabletop RPG before from blank paper to playing the game in like an hour tops. To me, the best way to advance After Sundown is to advance it more towards quick play for low-knowledge players.

    So, yeah, the current magic chapter isn't good. I know it's not good. That's why I spent a few days writing a 100% replacement to said chapter. Some of your suggestions are close to what I did even. I don't know if that was intentional on your part or not. Some what you did went in the exact opposite direction, and instead of throwing out the crufty crap you doubled down on it. Among the things that you wrote down that I didn't write down, the best one I'd use is adding a tag for explicit Covert effects.

    Like, what are you trying to accomplish with your changes? Who's your target audience? Are you ultimately after a change to just the magic chapter, or to more of the game? It's fine if your goals don't match mine, but your goals are unclear either way.

    EDIT: FIXED.
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    Whipstitch
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    PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Enough of your sentence was missing that I don't really know what you meant. With that said, if your group seriously never bids against each other ever, then, yeah, you really do have a more harmonious group than mine. We've got a handful of people (including yours truly) who'll make unilateral decisions when things bog down or it starts to feel like someone's crossing the line between co-op and backseat driving. I about expected an engagement to be called off after a game of Big Book of Madness last month.
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    PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    fixed
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