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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Oh, Necromunda. New plastic models are always nice. Especially as there are almost no plastic female human models, and none whatsoever that aren't in power armour, IIRC. Goliaths look like they'd be useful for conversions of Catachans.

Oh, and there might be some rules and maybe a game in there somewhere.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Eh? The new goliaths are space marine size on 32mm bases. Even though the catachan models are terrible mutants, they wouldn't match up.
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

They are? Couldn't see that from the pics, just assumed they'd be human sized because, well, human.

All well, Goliaths and Orlock were only somewhat interesting for guard conversions, it's the Delaque and particularly Escher and Cawdor I'd want.

Was unemployed when the specialist games part of the GW site stopped selling metal necromunda models and it didn't seem wise to get too many at the time, mistake in hindsight.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I have a handful of the old metal Escher minis, with a few of them in basically matching garb to be a squad of Penal Legion (back when Imperial Guard had those... as in, when it was still called Imperial Guard). The others just painted up for the fun of it, though I feel they could do with touching up, mainly to brighten the colours. I painted them when I wasn't so good at layering and highlights.

Anyway, the new minis do look rad, and it's nice that they're releasing the individual boxes right out the gate rather than making you either wait or buy a box set then throw out everything you don't want (yay, crappy cardboard scenery!) but I'm not going to actually get any, at least for now - I just have so many things unpainted at the moment. But some new Escher in crazy colours would look good on the shelf.
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OgreBattle
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

S4 Catachans and the hulking Goliath models makes me wish 8e space marines were all Custodes sized with s5t5w2 as the average so there could be some semblance of matching fluff to tabletop.

I always get Delaque and Van Saar mixed up, the latter is the hi-tech guys in skinsuits and the former are... good spies I think? They'd both be good for a hi tech guardsmen force
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

OgreBattle wrote:
S4 Catachans and the hulking Goliath models makes me wish 8e space marines were all Custodes sized with s5t5w2 as the average so there could be some semblance of matching fluff to tabletop.

I always get Delaque and Van Saar mixed up, the latter is the hi-tech guys in skinsuits and the former are... good spies I think? They'd both be good for a hi tech guardsmen force


Good spies/Matrix cosplayers in big coats and sunglasses, yeah.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So the new Necromunda is out and it is a clusterfuck of weird marketing and planning.

The base game comes with two gangs, no rules for the other gangs, and rules for 3d terrain and campaigns (the selling point of the original) have been cut out and sold as a different book. Basic weapons (like chainswords and shit) have been removed from the game, and the other 4 basic gangs will take apparently all or most of 2018 to come out (one per season, essentially). Card packs for each gang will be sold separately and also include new general cards with new 'tactics' or whatever, in a very FFG pay to win model.

There are apparently 'legacy rules' for the other gangs planned as a download, but they won't match the 'weird shit' equipment that they'll be getting when they get new plastics, to match the random crap Escher and Goliath got.

What should have been straightforward nostalgia sales is quickly turning into a hot fucking mess, and I've seen no explanation of why.
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I suspect lack of 3d rules and campaigns might be because GW assumes peope would one to play one off skirmish games on the old terrain they've got. Or at least that's the only reason that comes to mind.

But...no chainswords? Huh?
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Voss
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thaluikhain wrote:
I suspect lack of 3d rules and campaigns might be because GW assumes peope would one to play one off skirmish games on the old terrain they've got. Or at least that's the only reason that comes to mind.

Can't be that, they've got half-a-dozen new hive world/factory terrain pieces they're selling alongside Necromunda at pretty damn steep prices.

Quote:
But...no chainswords? Huh?

Seriously, no idea.
Some weapons seem to be missing from the boxed version rules because they aren't on the sprues for the new plastic gangs.

But chainswords and a couple other staples of the universe just... aren't in the rules. Not even the extra book rules (Gang War, which also doesn't include the rules for the other gangs... despite the name and common sense).

I really don't understand what the fuck GW is doing anymore. I sort of vaguely understand rushing out codex releases in the wake of 8th edition (despite the obviously lack of testing or QA time) and from a business perspective I get forcing people to buy a yearly update book.

But for so many of their decisions, I can't even tell what they're selling any more. The 'new' Age of Shitmar releases are just repackaging a random bunch of unrelated Old Warhammer shit together as 'City Armies,' for the new 'campaign book' which is a little booklet, some cards, a blank map and a bunch of stickers. Bored
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SlyJohnny
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Chainswords are just regular close combat weapons with fluff attached. They had parry rules for swords for a while, but they dropped them at some point.
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

SlyJohnny wrote:
Chainswords are just regular close combat weapons with fluff attached. They had parry rules for swords for a while, but they dropped them at some point.


They dropped that when they went from 2nd to 3rd ed.

GW has recently brought out their Necromunda style skirmish game, Shadow War Armageddon, in which they had rules for every army (even Sisters), campaign rules, and rules for chainswords.

I am very surprised that the actual Necroumunda is less Necromunda than that. I could sorta understand only having rules for stuff in the boxed set, but...really bad move.

Blood Bowl has very few teams so far. Looks like we won't get Scavies and Enforcers and Spyrers and Pit Slaves and Ratskins for ages, if ever.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

SlyJohnny wrote:
Chainswords are just regular close combat weapons with fluff attached. They had parry rules for swords for a while, but they dropped them at some point.

That was true for a period of time. It hasn't always been true (it started with its own profile), and isn't true now in 8th. Since necromunda uses 8th edition for its weapon stats, this is weird.

Quote:

Looks like we won't get Scavies and Enforcers and Spyrers and Pit Slaves and Ratskins for ages, if ever.

If at all. Word of mouth is Enforcers won't ever happen, but a Necromunda 2 is planned for 2019, after they take a year to get the basic gangs out.

Speaking of which, the Orlocks are being shown off.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/25/all-the-latest-from-the-warhammer-40000-open-day-nov-25gw-homepage-post-1/

They're rather nice models- probably the best so far. But they'll require their own $30 book to use (Yep, $30 book for rules for 10 models and some other stuff)

----

On the 8th edition side of things, the Chapter Approved annual mandatory update book is leaking... and getting a fair amount of pushback. Some of the GW side point adjusts are pretty reasonable, but the FW stuff shows off utter incompetence. +/- 50% points adjustments are really hard for people to swallow, and show off an amazing cluelessness about the system. For a model to jump from 650 to 2000 points? No idea what the fuck people are doing.
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Seen some Goliath models in person, and they look like they are Catachan sized. But with lots of weird junk stuck on, dunno how they'd work with conversions.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thaluikhain wrote:
Seen some Goliath models in person, and they look like they are Catachan sized. But with lots of weird junk stuck on, dunno how they'd work with conversions.


They're definitely not. Here's one between an old marine and primaris marine, filling out a 32mm base.

https://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2017/11/24/917181_md-.jpg


That fucker's taller (even when flexing his kozars a bit), and with thicker thighs than SM armour.


Edit: it's entirely possible that the current Shatchans are even more mutantly freakish than I remember (as they moved to direct only sales really quickly), but GW's problems with sculpting muscles in CAD aside, I don't remember them dwarfing space marines. The Cadian command models that came out at the same time are slightly smaller than the typical marine (the one on the left in the picture), even when standing erect like a normal human being compared to the average marine's bow-legged waddle.


Last edited by Voss on Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:30 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Dimmy
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
What should have been straightforward nostalgia sales is quickly turning into a hot fucking mess, and I've seen no explanation of why.


The question answers itself. And I know you know that, because --

Voss wrote:
This is a nostalgia boner release for 'New GW' to continue testing out the big boy model of exploitative sales tactics.


As long as consumers keep handing over good money for 'member-berries -- Pathfinder, D&D 5e, any number of Specialist Games "revivals" -- why would companies ever bother putting out actual, playable products? From the history of this past decade, it looks like they could stamp a box of old dog-turds with the word "Necromunda", and they'd still get your money.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Eh. Some level of competence and awareness of what the customer base wants (or thinks it wants) is required. Paizo is getting pushback on the idea that the shifter is too simple and made for noobs, because their customer base exists on the back of complicating 3e. 5e, on the other hand, took the ones that wanted simple (after their audience rejected WotC's newfangled game of fantasy supers, which caused management to gut the D&D team)

In this case, GW is fighting against the biggest want that their customers demand: they want shit now. They're almost literally telling people not to buy in to Newcromunda at all, but instead wait until their preferred gang comes out and then snipe that gang and the relevant book, and maybe also wait for a complete rulebook. A good exploitation model keeps the customers coming back. It doesn't tell them to go away and check back in 9 months for a finished game, the last starter faction and the final page of the basic rules.

And since the rules they're leaving out were originally packed together in a boxed set and 6 10 man boxes are really fairly close to usual size of a faction release, there's fuck all excuse for it. There is also sorts of weird and wacky shit in necromunda to space out over a year's release schedule, plus card sets and exclusive dice and whatever fuckery they want for extra revenue.

And by that point interest and local scenes will likely collapse and there won't be much of a reason to buy in at all. Maybe buy a new gang box for old necromunda, and keep playing that, because it's actually a functional, complete game.

So instead of selling people a game, a couple gangs, some miscellaneous hired guns and 1 or 2 solid supplements, they're only going to manage maybe a gang or so to people who were alreadyinterested.

On the other side of things, it's also a departure from their very successful approach with boxed games, which has been self contained rule sets with a bunch of shit that can be used in the main games. Space hulk, the 'warhammer quest' remakes, Dw: Overkill, the two heresy games that are basic a boxed sets for heresy era marine plastics. Those all sold well, except for the stupid one with the boats that wasn't anything like Man'o'War and wasn't usable for anything else.

It's also an approach that doesn't stand well against their actually successful product line - 40k, which is racing at three times the usual release schedule to get all the codex books out. And their new game, shadespire, which does FFG style exploitation correctly, is also coming at much faster clip. So it's not like they don't know how to exploit their customers, or shovel shit at them, they're just having a white wolf moment and fucking this release like a stray dog


Last edited by Voss on Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:20 am; edited 3 times in total
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
Thaluikhain wrote:
Seen some Goliath models in person, and they look like they are Catachan sized. But with lots of weird junk stuck on, dunno how they'd work with conversions.


They're definitely not. Here's one between an old marine and primaris marine, filling out a 32mm base.

https://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2017/11/24/917181_md-.jpg


That fucker's taller (even when flexing his kozars a bit), and with thicker thighs than SM armour.


Huh, I stand corrected. Talked to a staff member at my local about that, he said they were human sized, and the bits on the sprues looked right, but didn't compare a Goliath to a Guard model. Hopefully some of the bits will be interchangeable.

Voss wrote:
Eh. Some level of competence and awareness of what the customer base wants (or thinks it wants) is required. Paizo is getting pushback on the idea that the shifter is too simple and made for noobs, because their customer base exists on the back of complicating 3e. 5e, on the other hand, took the ones that wanted simple (after their audience rejected WotC's newfangled game of fantasy supers, which caused management to gut the D&D team)

In this case, GW is fighting against the biggest want that their customers demand: they want shit now. They're almost literally telling people not to buy in to Newcromunda at all, but instead wait until their preferred gang comes out and then snipe that gang and the relevant book, and maybe also wait for a complete rulebook. A good exploitation model keeps the customers coming back. It doesn't tell them to go away and check back in 9 months for a finished game, the last starter faction and the final page of the basic rules.

And since the rules they're leaving out were originally packed together in a boxed set and 6 10 man boxes are really fairly close to usual size of a faction release, there's fuck all excuse for it. There is also sorts of weird and wacky shit in necromunda to space out over a year's release schedule, plus card sets and exclusive dice and whatever fuckery they want for extra revenue.

And by that point interest and local scenes will likely collapse and there won't be much of a reason to buy in at all. Maybe buy a new gang box for old necromunda, and keep playing that, because it's actually a functional, complete game.

So instead of selling people a game, a couple gangs, some miscellaneous hired guns and 1 or 2 solid supplements, they're only going to manage maybe a gang or so to people who were alreadyinterested.

On the other side of things, it's also a departure from their very successful approach with boxed games, which has been self contained rule sets with a bunch of shit that can be used in the main games. Space hulk, the 'warhammer quest' remakes, Dw: Overkill, the two heresy games that are basic a boxed sets for heresy era marine plastics. Those all sold well, except for the stupid one with the boats that wasn't anything like Man'o'War and wasn't usable for anything else.

It's also an approach that doesn't stand well against their actually successful product line - 40k, which is racing at three times the usual release schedule to get all the codex books out. And their new game, shadespire, which does FFG style exploitation correctly, is also coming at much faster clip. So it's not like they don't know how to exploit their customers, or shovel shit at them, they're just having a white wolf moment and fucking this release like a stray dog


This. They also made new Necromunda model not look like old ones, so you'd not likely want to get new models to expand your old gang.

Necromunda (or so the legend goes) always had the problem that you can basically buy a squad of guard and stop buying models, which isn't great for GW. At least Mordheim used the same factions as WHFB.

Also looks like the hired gun models are going to be FW only. Sigh.
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ok, took some Catachan (mostly) models round to a GW to compare with their Goliaths and got some pics.

https://ibb.co/dC784b
https://ibb.co/c8Eo4b
https://ibb.co/cs7fHw
https://ibb.co/fsfpAG

(Yeah, painted those ages ago in a hurry, and wanted the lascannon conversion doesn't really work. Also, picked a colour that looks very much like unpainted sprue.)

The Goliaths are definitely bigger, but I think some of the parts might be interchangeable. Only really interested in the Goliath weapons, TBH. Same won't be able to mix Goliath and Catachan models in the same unit, though.

The Escher sprues look like they'd be good for conversions, the models look like they'd work well with witch elves (or maybe daemonette), the weapons have a elvish look to them. Or possibly they were going with effeminate, they are all curves and swirls, rather than boxy with straight edges and right angles.
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OgreBattle
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thanks for the size comparison
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