OSSR: WH40K, 3rd Edition

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maglag
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Post by maglag »

I would say proxying ork vehicles with lego would be pretty easy at least, since you could just stick a bunch of any pieces together until you have about the right size and call it a proper orky kustom job.

Also chaos deserves some lego love too:
Image

And now necrons:
Image
Last edited by maglag on Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

maglag wrote:With 8th edition it seems like is exactly that, since the new Nurgle Chaos Lord can suddenly take the Catchpracthi pattern terminator armor that dates back to the 30k (and which loyalist scum could take core since 7th edition).
I wonder if that's because the Imperium has new super marine things, so they can give chaos have some of the old super marine terminator things.
Zaranthan wrote:IIRC, the rationale for Nurgle's various durability boosts was that you're infected with all kinds of crazy shit and have necrotized flesh and pus blisters all over your body, but Nurgle's blessing means these don't actually have an adverse effect on your ability to DO anything. Thus, they're just extra body parts, and the rule represents the bullet landing there and not causing a "real" wound, or possibly the old "gunslinger with a bible in their pocket" myth.
I thought it was because since the blessing of Nurgle meant that decaying flesh et al didn't bother you, bullet wounds also wouldn't bother you so much.
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Post by Zaranthan »

Thaluikhain wrote:I thought it was because since the blessing of Nurgle meant that decaying flesh et al didn't bother you, bullet wounds also wouldn't bother you so much.
GW canon is like SCP canon: there is none. It's entirely possible that both explanations can be found by looking in different codices. There's also the issue of remembering the one faction's fluff for a different faction's mechanic. One or both of our explanations could have been an Eldar or Adeptus Mechanicus speculating about a bulletproof squad bearing Nurgle's mark.
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Post by Whipstitch »

maglag wrote:You know, when you consider the Eldar as Khorne worshippers worshipping daemons, wouldn't that make the Dark Eldar slightly less evil since at least those aren't summoning daemons?
Not really. The thing with the Dark Eldar is that they get all their beauty tips from Liz Bathory. See, Slaanesh supposedly finds eldar extra tasty and psychically drains them through the Warp, eventually claiming them entirely upon death. That's bad. The Eldar deal with this with their spirit stones and the Dark Eldar deal with it by leeching souls and staving off the aging process via the suffering of other sapient life. So, aside from the lack of daemon avatars running around the Dark Eldar are functionally equivalent to a weird Slaanesh cult from the practical perspective of outsiders. Whether they're motivated by fear or respect they're still going to torture you to death in their sex dungeon because otherwise Psychic Pervert Space Satan something something.
Last edited by Whipstitch on Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by OgreBattle »

maglag wrote:I would say proxying ork vehicles with lego would be pretty easy at least, since you could just stick a bunch of any pieces together until you have about
You've discovered the one way to make proxying more expensive than buying 40k model kits!
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Post by Koumei »

If you don't have a massive collection of Lego in your house already, then I can't speak with you any more.

(Admittedly I'm living with my parents again, and they still have the Lego from when I was a kid, and when my sister (only a few years younger) was a kid, and when my other sister (significantly younger, so another "generation of Lego") was a kid. We have loads of the stuff but not in the sense that I've gone and bought any in the last ten years. Other than the one animu robot thing bought on a midnight K-mart visit because I thought it would be funny, when I was in my mid 20s.)
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Post by Mord »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Koumei:

[...] Anyway, as Frank is about to mention in a bit more depth, this game was not just an update on the previous one (whereas you could sort of take your 3E army into 4E and just be at a mild disadvantage from basic power creep or some abilities working differently). Likewise from 5th to 6th and from 6th to 7th – they were the incremental changes of D&D 3E to 3.5 where maybe your specific character suddenly sucks because someone had a hate-on for chargers but if you had made a Wizard under the old system, chances were good that you barely had to change anything other than allocate your Scry skill points into a new Knowledge or something, maybe adjust your prepared spells, and any old prestige classes not yet updated could still basically work (for non-casters, probably better than once they DID update them!). 2E to 3E in Warhammer 40K was a lot like 2E to 3E in D&D where you were doing it all from the ground up and your old codex was suddenly meaningless.

[...]
FrankT:

A wargame isn't a playable thing without army lists, which is why 4th edition was such a slap in the fucking face.
Thanks much to Koumei and Frank for taking us on this trip down grimdark memory lane.

After reading this I have a pretty good handle on why 3rd edition was such a huge improvement over what came before, but can someone provide a few more details on the subject of how each subsequent edition either A) failed to build on the foundations of 3rd or B) directly cocked it all up? Has every edition from 4th to 7th really been "3rd with some things shuffled and a bit of extra crap glued on" or have things really meaningfully changed over time? For instance, what made 5th "Tank Edition?"

8th seems like a pretty substantial departure from 7th, but I admit that I don't really know. I only paid attention to WH40k as a game and not a source of forgettable grimderp fan fiction during 3rd. This was due entirely to the fact that between 2001 and 2003 I thought the Tyranids' 3rd ed codex with all the mutation rules in the back was the coolest thing since sliced bread.
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Post by Username17 »

Each edition 4th through 7th is basically just the previous edition with a couple of major rules switched around radically in order to massively aid or hurt certain armies or units. Often as not directly undoing the changes from the edition previous.

For example: while 3rd edition was known at the time as Transports Edition because Rhinos were pretty sweet mobile firing platforms, in 4th edition transports of all kinds were hot garbage. They introduced the single rule that a transport which was damaged or destroyed rendered all transported troops unable to act the following turn. That one extra entry into vehicle damage effects made troop transports worthless because you were just asking your very expensive squad to get Tekken Juggled for the entire fucking game. 5th edition swung things the other way, and was called "Tank Edition" because not only did that rule get taken away, but the "vehicle destroyed" result was removed from the glancing hit chart (but "treat all penetrating hits as glancing hits" effects were not all removed from the game).

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maglag
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Post by maglag »

5th to 6th edition had a lot of significant changes:
-Complete psyker system overhaul, including randomly rolling for powers.
-Random warlord traits, most of them being meh, but sometimes you got something like "my super tough commander can now capture objectives by himself, fuck you"
-Random charge distances and overwatch and unable to assault from transports and power weapons nerf resulting in the overall crapping on every melee unit.
-Vehicles gaining HP (hull points), and glancing hits removed those, meaning anything that could spam glancing hits was pretty boss at killing tanks now.
-Fliers becoming standard to further crap in melee, and now every army had to pack anti-air of some sort.
Last edited by maglag on Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Koumei »

Tank Edition was also the one where more tanks could move and shoot more weapons more reliably. We're still not talking "put all the guns on your Rush Limbaugh tank unless the main gun is only a Heavy like the Vanquisher". Also I may be butchering the Leman Russ name a bit too much now. So moderately-armed vehicles were becoming more reliable at their jobs (while still leaving a sore spot for things that are "basically a Leman Russ"). Note that they still had the targeting problem where it's quite rare for you to be able to fire both of your sponsons on the same turn, because you are using True Line of Sight with sponson arcs, you can't aim a gun through your own body (for obvious reasons) and all guns have to be fired at the same target. So while you could probably position your tank to put the turret Twin Lascannon and one side Heavy Bolter into an enemy, the other side was taking a nap.

Furthermore, vehicles were a big deal for objectives. My memory is kind of hazy here but if I recall correctly, the deal was:
A) Anything contested an objective, so you could just get a Land Speeder that had its weapons blown off and zoom it up and go "Actually you don't have that objective." Or sit a particularly resilient one on your backfield objective, where it will take ages for the enemy to get dedicated anti-tank firepower to you.
B) If a Troops squad is sitting inside a vehicle, they still capture objectives. So it's like being a Troops choice that is immune to Flamers and basic hand to hand.
C) If a vehicle is taken as a Dedicated Transport for a Troops choice, it counts as a Troops choice and can hold objectives? I think? (I do seem to recall people saying it was worthwhile to swap units so the Troops and Elite pile out of their cars and take each others' cars, and if point C is correct, that would explain that one - you have a Scoring armoured Troops and a Scoring armoured Elite.)

-

You may have noticed the first half of maglag's list having a theme. That theme is what I call "Fuck it, let's just randomly roll shit instead of having decisions play a part in this". Hence 6Ed being d6 Ed.
maglag wrote:Fliers becoming standard to further crap in melee, and now every army had to pack anti-air of some sort.
Bonus points: not every army has anti-air. Some straight-up have to take an Aegis defence line (a universal-except-fuck-Tyranids choice from the core book, which cannot move) in their only Fortification slot and try to position it for maximum coverage at the start, and if that gets destroyed quickly by an air-craft heavy unit, then fuck you. And then because GW can't mathhammer their way out of a paper bag (also known as Imperial Guard armour), in some cases the anti-air stuff is strictly inferior at its job to plain old weight of fire (ie the best Ork anti-air was the Loota Boy squad, which lost all of 1 BS).

7 felt very much like 6.5, because it absolutely was. 6 introduced a lot of weird shit, and 7 stapled that into the core rules. It also went through and found anything that people particularly liked doing and scribbled that out - Necrons lost a Lord of War choice that was too good, and another LoW choice was extremely weakened (and one Elite choice that could be customised was replaced with two special characters returning from 3Ed). They also lost the magic of anti-aircraft Tesla spam, even though Flying Type pokemon are weak against Lightning moves.

8 is a pile of wet shit in almost every aspect, although I will say it gives Chaos HUNGRY TANKS that get better at eating the enemy the more Wounds they lose (well they get worse at reaching them but better at hand to hand fighting when it happens) and have "Infernal Hunger" as their actual rule so they are literally eating foes to regain Wounds. That alone amuses me greatly. A Land Raider assault ramp/hatch even basically looks like a big mouth.
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maglag
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Post by maglag »

Ah yes 7th edition came out only a couple years after sixth because the game was a complete balance mess with stuff like the already mentioned whole armies lacking anti air.

Chaos had the honor of being the first army with anti air missiles. That were so overcosted you were indeed better off just bringing moar dakka.

Also loyalist scum was falling behind and GW could not allow it. So seventh gave them the grav guns aka the ultimate fuck you special weapon that was super effective against everything that you could not just bolter to death.

Oh and yes drop pods could suddenly capture points on their own so you had to burn turns of shooting to take them out besides dealing with whatever was inside.
Last edited by maglag on Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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