The Gaming Den

Back to the idea of different classes with different resource mechanics, I was thinking about the idea of a trick-based rogue class. The basic idea is to have a class that uses trickery to set up for different tricks. The obvious candidate is the 3E version of Sneak Attack (or something similar).

I'm curious what other ideas people have, for a 3E-esque game. I figure some will involve various debuffs to help set up for future attacks. Perhaps things like:

• Making a surprised target shaken/frightened.
• Nauseating someone denied their Dex bonus to AC against the attack.
• Better ability to perform trips/disarms/movement penalties at range.
• Dropping save/AC penalties after the target is damaged.

The biggest thing is, all I'm really thinking of is pretty low-level stuff. This seems like the sort of thing you'd see in an E6 kind of game. What kinds of tricks would a 15th level rogue do? About the best I can think of is perusing the Sorcerer/Wizard list, trying to think of what types of high-level spells look "rogue-like".

In the thing I was writing (haven't had time to write on it in half a year at least so I may misremember some things) I had a "Rogue" class set named Scoundrel. Each archetype gained abilities related to certain skills. The Thief got various disarm and acrobatic tricks that allowed them to move quickly around the battlefield to lay traps, distract, or otherwise disarm/impede foes. The Assassin was all about sneak attacks and applying debilitating effects from those sneak attacks with some quick recharge benefits for being able to go back into stealth. Last there was the agent who was essentially for support. Had some mind affect and illusion based abilities thst would trick targets into missing attacks place abilities on the wrong target, and other assorted minor interruptions with its abilities getting bonuses or extra effects if the agent interacted with the targets in certain ways prior to engagement.

RobbyPants wrote:Back to the idea of different classes with different resource mechanics, I was thinking about the idea of a trick-based rogue class. The basic idea is to have a class that uses trickery to set up for different tricks. The obvious candidate is the 3E version of Sneak Attack (or something similar).

I'm curious what other ideas people have, for a 3E-esque game. I figure some will involve various debuffs to help set up for future attacks. Perhaps things like:

• Making a surprised target shaken/frightened.
• Nauseating someone denied their Dex bonus to AC against the attack.
• Better ability to perform trips/disarms/movement penalties at range.
• Dropping save/AC penalties after the target is damaged.

The biggest thing is, all I'm really thinking of is pretty low-level stuff. This seems like the sort of thing you'd see in an E6 kind of game. What kinds of tricks would a 15th level rogue do? About the best I can think of is perusing the Sorcerer/Wizard list, trying to think of what types of high-level spells look "rogue-like".

Death attacks are a thing that can come online at level 6. So frankly I have no idea what justifies the rogue class for even existing past that point. ( or honestly before that point)

The reasonable abilities at 15th should involve stun juggling at minimum

Voss wrote:

RobbyPants wrote:Back to the idea of different classes with different resource mechanics, I was thinking about the idea of a trick-based rogue class. The basic idea is to have a class that uses trickery to set up for different tricks. The obvious candidate is the 3E version of Sneak Attack (or something similar).

I'm curious what other ideas people have, for a 3E-esque game. I figure some will involve various debuffs to help set up for future attacks. Perhaps things like:

• Making a surprised target shaken/frightened.
• Nauseating someone denied their Dex bonus to AC against the attack.
• Better ability to perform trips/disarms/movement penalties at range.
• Dropping save/AC penalties after the target is damaged.

The biggest thing is, all I'm really thinking of is pretty low-level stuff. This seems like the sort of thing you'd see in an E6 kind of game. What kinds of tricks would a 15th level rogue do? About the best I can think of is perusing the Sorcerer/Wizard list, trying to think of what types of high-level spells look "rogue-like".

Death attacks are a thing that can come online at level 6. So frankly I have no idea what justifies the rogue class for even existing past that point. ( or honestly before that point)

The reasonable abilities at 15th should involve stun juggling at minimum

"It's okay to give fighters infinite damage because death effects exist at level 6, so therefore all damage becomes worthless, because obviously there are no defenses against death effects that don't work against damage."

Yeah, no. Rogues already get piles of damage, so that definitely has nothing to do with the discussion.

The point is doing trivial stuff like shaken, tripping or disarming when outright death is on the table 9 levels earlier is fucking pointless. Claiming they are meaningful effects to hand out at any level is pretty tough.

Nauseating is actually pretty strong, and AC/save penalties might matter, but it can be hard to argue that these are stchicks that belong to the rogue and aren't just something that can be handed out to anyone.

Well, the conditions don't have to be only available for rogues to use. I'm fine with wizards and rogues both throwing the nauseated condition, or whatever.

I'm looking for effects that would be level appropriate, thematic, and using a resource mechanic that primarily involves exploiting some weakness rather than use-based.

Voss wrote:Yeah, no. Rogues already get piles of damage, so that definitely has nothing to do with the discussion.

The point is doing trivial stuff like shaken, tripping or disarming when outright death is on the table 9 levels earlier is fucking pointless. Claiming they are meaningful effects to hand out at any level is pretty tough.

..........................................................................................................................................

How stupid are you?

"X = Z."
"X+Y is worthless, because Y is less than Z."

What the fuck are you even saying you idiot?

Voss wrote:
Nauseating is actually pretty strong, and AC/save penalties might matter, but it can be hard to argue that these are stchicks that belong to the rogue and aren't just something that can be handed out to anyone.

One could also make the case for the erasure of the "fighter" and "rogue" classes; and replacing them with "adventurer"; erasing the artificial split that reduced the "Non-magic" hero's power levels a great deal post-OD&D.

Kaelik wrote:

Voss wrote:Yeah, no. Rogues already get piles of damage, so that definitely has nothing to do with the discussion.

The point is doing trivial stuff like shaken, tripping or disarming when outright death is on the table 9 levels earlier is fucking pointless. Claiming they are meaningful effects to hand out at any level is pretty tough.

..........................................................................................................................................

How stupid are you?

"X = Z."
"X+Y is worthless, because Y is less than Z."

What the fuck are you even saying you idiot?

This isn't complicated at all. At mid levels and beyond, rogues can just opt to try to outright save-or-die people or throw giant piles of damage dice that just plain kill people.

If you want to hand out new high level or even mid-level abilities for rogues, they have to be comparable in some way to just plain eliminating an enemy outright, or at least utilitarian in _some_ fashion. Shaken, tripping and all that shit isn't, and can never be. They're shit options that aren't worth burning actions on.

Nauseating gets a slight pass because it's a low level way to start stun locking, which can also be useful. Especially with rogues, since their default state is horribly binary- either they can kill shit fast, or the target is immune and they're forced to stand around holding their junk.

Next, if you like, I can explain how you can step up onto a really short curb.

Voss wrote:

Kaelik wrote:

Voss wrote:Yeah, no. Rogues already get piles of damage, so that definitely has nothing to do with the discussion.

The point is doing trivial stuff like shaken, tripping or disarming when outright death is on the table 9 levels earlier is fucking pointless. Claiming they are meaningful effects to hand out at any level is pretty tough.

..........................................................................................................................................

How stupid are you?

"X = Z."
"X+Y is worthless, because Y is less than Z."

What the fuck are you even saying you idiot?

This isn't complicated at all. At mid levels and beyond, rogues can just opt to try to outright save-or-die people or throw giant piles of damage dice that just plain kill people.

If you want to hand out new high level or even mid-level abilities for rogues, they have to be comparable in some way to just plain eliminating an enemy outright, or at least utilitarian in _some_ fashion. Shaken, tripping and all that shit isn't, and can never be. They're shit options that aren't worth burning actions on.

Nauseating gets a slight pass because it's a low level way to start stun locking, which can also be useful. Especially with rogues, since their default state is horribly binary- either they can kill shit fast, or the target is immune and they're forced to stand around holding their junk.

Next, if you like, I can explain how you can step up onto a really short curb.

You are a fucking idiot. You are the dumbest idiot.

No matter how many times you repeat "X+Y Is terrible, because Y is less than X" you are still an idiot.

Learn to read, come back when you can read, never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever say anything to any other human being until you learn how to read. Thanks kiddo.