The Gaming Den Forum Index The Gaming Den
Welcome to the Gaming Den.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Google
 Search WWW   Search tgdmb.com 
BAB as resource

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Gaming Den Forum Index -> In My Humble Opinion...
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Harshax
Apprentice


Joined: 05 Sep 2014
Posts: 84
Location: Chicago, USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:34 pm    Post subject: BAB as resource Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Been a while since I ran a game. Running a one-off tonight using the LotFP adventure, 'Thulian Echoes'. It has an interesting twist to the old, 'you find an adventure journal' hook to a dungeon. Instead of giving the players lots of hand-outs to represent the journal, the players actually run through the original adventure using pregens. Events and actions in the prelude trigger tags that effect the environment later for the current era. One minor cosmetic example: The original party has certain stores on a boat. If they consume apples during the adventure, stunted apple trees will be now be encountered on the island.

Enough back story. I don't have LotFP, just a stripped down d20 SRD. I don't want to use tactical maps, but I do want the Fighters to provide some value. I was thinking about allowing Fighters to treat their BAB as a pool that they can use for the following combat effects:

1:1 = +1 BAB (Attack, Tactic, Trick)
1:1 = +1 AC
2:1 = Increase Damage Die one Step

So a 5th level fighter has a 5 points that he can divide between his BAB, AC, and Damage to better react to a type of threat or designate some to a comrade to control the battlefield.

These pips can be used to enhance their own combat abilities or granted to another party member. A Fighter can state they are shielding the squishy magic-user, by assigning some of his BAB to the magic-user's AC.

These effects last until the Fighter's next action.

Anyone see an unexpected exploit with this option? Thank you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RobbyPants
Prince


Joined: 06 Aug 2008
Posts: 4249

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

At low levels, it's a small buff. At high levels, AC is far less useful and people get killed on a single failed save.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spongeknight
Master


Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 267

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Can this stack from multiple uses? Can three level 5 fighters combine to give a fourth fighter a 6 die step increases on damage and +3 to hit? You might run into the Knights of the Round problem where having one fighter is kinda useless but you can build a party of fighters to murder people super hard. Alternatively, your fighters might become buff-bots to greatly increase the effectiveness of your druid/rogue/whatevers instead of using it on themselves.
_________________
A Man In Black wrote:
I do not want people to feel like they can never get rid of their Guisarme or else they can't cast Evard's Swarm Of Black Tentacleguisarmes.


Voss wrote:
Which is pretty classic WW bullshit, really. Suck people in and then announce that everyone was a dogfucker all along.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Harshax
Apprentice


Joined: 05 Sep 2014
Posts: 84
Location: Chicago, USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Should I allow the fighter to spend bab pool and apply to saving throws to represent tactics? 1:1 +1 to all saves?

So a +1 to save vs a Medusa gaze: fighter yells, 'shield your eyes!' Or he pushes his shield to front of your face at the right moment.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Harshax
Apprentice


Joined: 05 Sep 2014
Posts: 84
Location: Chicago, USA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

spongeknight wrote:
Can this stack from multiple uses? Can three level 5 fighters combine to give a fourth fighter a 6 die step increases on damage and +3 to hit? You might run into the Knights of the Round problem where having one fighter is kinda useless but you can build a party of fighters to murder people super hard. Alternatively, your fighters might become buff-bots to greatly increase the effectiveness of your druid/rogue/whatevers instead of using it on themselves.


I was kind of thinking this was a feature. You want fighters to work together if something is too hard to hit or has high DR. It is mathematically inferior to give your pool to someone just for more damage, unless you are armed with a stick, as most of the damage comes from your weapon die.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Harshax
Apprentice


Joined: 05 Sep 2014
Posts: 84
Location: Chicago, USA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The rule made for some interesting moments at the table. The one character who ran a 3rd level fighter gave away all his points every round, relying on his 18 Strength to power his to-hit and damage bonus. The best moment of the night was when the character playing the rabbi suggested he should be able to turn golems instead of undead, then used two points from tactics to fuel a successful turn golem roll that was otherwise impossible. Since I hadn't been clear what the tactics could be used for, I had to let it ride. The guy running the fighter felt versatile in a fight and we all had good fun. I think something along these lines is going to make it into my fantasy heartbreaker.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
deaddmwalking
Duke


Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 1405

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

BAB is a resource that every character has. If everyone is using it, I don't know that the Fighter is going to feel special.

We come back to the whole 'using a weapon to stab things dead is not a protected role'.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zaranthan
Master


Joined: 29 May 2012
Posts: 276

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Make the BAB-buffs exclusive to classes with full BAB, since the designers thought it was so awesome it compared to having spells.
_________________
Koumei wrote:
...is the dead guy posthumously at fault for his own death and, due to the felony murder law, his own murderer?

hyzmarca wrote:
A palace made out of poop is much more impressive than one made out of gold. Stinkier, but more impressive. One is an ostentatious display of wealth. The other is a miraculous engineering feat.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
deaddmwalking
Duke


Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 1405

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

How would that work with multi-class characters?

But the point is that a Cleric at 4th level has only 1 less BAB than a Fighter and even wizards can gain full BAB with a spell.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Voss
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 3464

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
2:1 = Increase Damage Die one Step


Right. I have the immediate impression that you don't know what this means. Because this is terrible AND fucking insane at the same time, because you have to go all in to get even vaguely meaningful results..

At low levels, especially with single handed weapons, this is utter shit.
2:1 gives you d6->d8. Average damage increases by 1. Power attacking for 2, gives you +2 damage, or d6+2 vs d8. The choice is really clear and really obvious.

With bigger weapons, this quickly runs to crazy town, since by 'one step' I assume you mean the size increase table. If you don't, I have no idea how you think it works (d8->d10->d12->???)?

But see, the size increase table wanders off:
d8 turns into 2d6, and then takes another step to ramp up. 2d6 (and d12)->3d6->4d6->6d6->8d6
d10 goes d10->2d8->3d8->4d8->6d8->8d8 (presumably. Not much goes beyond that point on the chart, but past level 10 with this system, PCs would.

Now the catch is, even at 4 dice, this is a terrible trade. A greatsword fighter(or cleric or whatever) taking -4 BAB (thus getting 4d6) is getting an average of +7 damage. With power attack and a two handed weapon, its +8. After that, the average damage increases faster for increasing the die type (+7 more rather than +4 more). And if you aren't starting with a great weapon, well, the returns are much lower, because you have to overcome those steps where you're get +3.5, +2.5 or even +1 per step.

So at level 6, greatswords and great axes are like waving around single target fireballs with no save and no hit bonus. Meanwhile a daggermaster is reminded that he just made a bad life choice a level 1, and should have picked up a greatsword, because that's what his dagger effectively functions as if he throws all his BAB away first (and since he probably wanted a precision-kill fantasy this pretty much seems absurd).

On the other hand, heavy crossbow guy suddenly has a ballista, but... eh. What is the party facing that one shot at +dex to hit for 4d8 damage even matters?

As a bonus, once to they get to the point having buckets to dice, they now have to deal with the high variance that comes with it. Is crossbow guy really going to be happy with a life of 'IF hit, ~18 damage' will probably happen?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zaranthan
Master


Joined: 29 May 2012
Posts: 276

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

deaddmwalking wrote:
How would that work with multi-class characters?

But the point is that a Cleric at 4th level has only 1 less BAB than a Fighter and even wizards can gain full BAB with a spell.

Off the cuff, if you aren't spending levels on a 1/1 BAB class, you just don't have access to this shit. It's a fighter trick, you need to be a fighter to use it. Or a ranger, paladin, what the fuck ever.
_________________
Koumei wrote:
...is the dead guy posthumously at fault for his own death and, due to the felony murder law, his own murderer?

hyzmarca wrote:
A palace made out of poop is much more impressive than one made out of gold. Stinkier, but more impressive. One is an ostentatious display of wealth. The other is a miraculous engineering feat.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
erik
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 4780

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So a BAB-based class feature, not a universal BAB mechanic. Seems like that was the original intent since this was specifically for capital-F Fighters in the first post.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Harshax
Apprentice


Joined: 05 Sep 2014
Posts: 84
Location: Chicago, USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I ran a plain-jane featless, minimal d20 - sort of like white box d20 or castles and crusades minus all the AD&D 1E worship.

Zaranthan wrote:
Make the BAB-buffs exclusive to classes with full BAB, since the designers thought it was so awesome it compared to having spells.


I only allowed Fighters to do this. Rangers and Paladins have spells and other features. Barbarians get left out, but thematically this fits with historical accounts of legionnaires versus the unregimented Germanic tribes. I envisioned the fighter to be a warrior, tactician and a warlord all rolled together. Since I said I didn't intend to use battle maps, I needed a method to simulate all of these concepts efficiently.

voss wrote:
With bigger weapons, this quickly runs to crazy town, since by 'one step' I assume you mean the size increase table.


I meant an increase in the top end of the rng:

d4->d6->d8->d10->d12->2d6->2d8->2d10->2d12->3d6->3d8=>...

Power Attack is a superior choice, you're not wrong. The BAB pool concedes that Fighters should be able to Power Attack, Shield Another, Fight Defensive, Flank Tactically right out of the gate. I didn't assign any feats to the pregens and if I were to introduce them later, their use might be to alter the bab to bonus ratio or provide synergy effects. Also, as Robby pointed out, even a complete mutable BAB resource becomes a trivial effect after the Heroic tier of adventuring, so at some point even a BAB pool doesn't save the fighter from becoming obsolete.

You're also right to point out end results for optimal fighter scenarios. The BAB pool design premise is to allow players a method to game the system and decide how best to use their resource against mobs, bosses, goons or other resilient targets. To that end, I might remove iterative attacks and extend the available options to include sweeping (multiple attacks against weaker foes) or fewer more precise strikes.

As to your greatsword vs dagger ... that's how the world actually works, but If you want a game that supports the fantasy that a dagger wielder can dish out as much damage as a greatsword wielder, then you need to just toss out the weapon charts entirely and go with something that ties melee damage to class.


Last edited by Harshax on Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chamomile
Prince


Joined: 03 May 2011
Posts: 3718

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Harshax wrote:


d4->d6->d8->d10->d12->2d6->2d8->2d10->2d12->3d6->3d8=>...


Average result of 2d10 is 5.5+5.5=11.

Average result of 2d12 is 6.5+6.5=13.

Average result of 3d6 is 3.5+3.5+3.5=10.5.

Average result of 3d8 is 4.5+4.5+4.5=13.5.

So we have a system where adding one extra die step could do anything from increasing your damage by three points to decreasing it by 2.5, with no consistency as to which.
_________________
I have a blog
Also a Discord channel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wiseman
Duke


Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 1054
Location: lost... HELP!

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The system as I understood it was 1d4 > 1d6 > 1d8(2d4) > 2d6(1d12) > 3d6 > 4d6 > 6d6 > 8d6 > 12d6 > 16d6 > 32d6 > 64d8

With 1d10 turning into 2d8 and then following in the same manner.
_________________
Check out my RP site!

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
RobbyPants
Prince


Joined: 06 Aug 2008
Posts: 4249

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, that's the standard increase for size changes. As Voss pointed out, it's either weak to the point of useless, or more powerful, but still not that exciting.

The one Harshax used is never worth using, so it might as well not be included as an option. It also has some typos/math errors on it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Harshax
Apprentice


Joined: 05 Sep 2014
Posts: 84
Location: Chicago, USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

As much as I like and want Fighter-players to experience fist-full of dice damage, I should probably just let them Power Attack. But to correct my math, I think I meant it to go like this:

d4 (2.5) > d6 (3.5) > d8/2d4 (4.5) > d10 (5.5) > d12/2d6 (6.5) > d4+d10 (8) > d6+d10 (9) > d8+d10 (10) > 2d10 (11) > d12+d10 (12)

... Spending 2 pips increases the damage range by 2 (but you can still roll poorly).


Last edited by Harshax on Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Emerald
Knight


Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 326

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If you want to give fighters fistfulls of dice comparable to Power Attack, how about letting them add +1d6 damage instead of stepping up the dice? Trading -2 BAB for +3.5 average damage is basically the two-handed Power Attack value except usable with any weapon, compared to trading -2 BAB for +2 average damage which is basically the rather underwhelming one-handed PA value, and it's likely that a player with a greatsword sacrificing 6 BAB (for instance) would find rolling 5d6 damage faster and easier to remember than rolling 2d6+1d8+1d10 and it works out to the the same damage (min 5, max 30, average ~17).

Heck, instead of requiring them to sacrifice attack bonus for things, you could go full-on 5e and just give them a pool of [2*level-1]d6 each round that can be spent on things like damage rolls, AC against certain attacks, Fort saves, physical skill checks, special combat tricks, and so forth, up to whatever limit of bonus dice per roll that you want to set and gated behind whatever class feature choices or feats you see fit. The 5e fighter may suck in general, but it seems like stealing that system would basically do what you want here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
OgreBattle
Prince


Joined: 03 Sep 2011
Posts: 4782

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This seems like it can get fiddly at the tabletop adjusting your numbers to be optimal accuracy/damage depending on the target's AC and so on.

It seems solid for what you're going for though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RobbyPants
Prince


Joined: 06 Aug 2008
Posts: 4249

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Harshax wrote:

... Spending 2 pips increases the damage range by 2 (but you can still roll poorly).


Don't look at the range or max roll; look at the average. You're advocating a trade of -2 to hit for +1 damage. Power Attack already exists and works better. Either make this better than Power Attack or scrap it. In its current form, it's a trap option.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
deaddmwalking
Duke


Joined: 21 May 2012
Posts: 1405

PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If it is a resource that is exclusively available for Fighters then divorce it from BAB. If you tie it to a resource that everyone has, everyone will expect that everyone should be able to use it.

It sounds like you want to give Fighters a pool of points not too dissimilar from a 'rage pool' that Pathfinder gives Barbarians.

You could start with a number of points equal to Level + STR (coincidentally, that would be equal to BAB). You would need to decide refresh rate, but you can then give lots of things a cost. Some suggestions:

1 point - +1d6 to a d20 roll
1 point - +1d6 damage
1 point - +2 AC versus one target for a round
1 point - Take an extra 5' step
3 points - Make a Reflex save equal to an attack roll against you; if you succeed, negate the attack
4 points - Treat next attack as a critical threat if it hits

Something like this gives the Fighter some tactical options each round without necessarily making it overly complicated.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Gaming Den Forum Index -> In My Humble Opinion... All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group