The Gaming Den

Erik wrote:A better model is the spell model of progression. Not surprising since casters are known to be more fun and playable. You get level gated abilities each level which don't require prerequisites and require actions and slots (which cuts ways down on synergy problems).

So... 4th Edition?

In all seriousness though, I do agree with you. The problem with 4th edition wasn't that there were a series of tiered power collections for the Rogue to choose from as they leveled up - the problem was that the powers in those groups were bullshit that took up way too much space on the damn page.

Something that was superficially similar to 4e in the sense that the Rogue would get ability selections off of a series of tiered lists is fucking obviously the way you should do things in a level based game. In this case I think it's pretty easy to demonstrate that 4e's leveled power lists were a bad implementation, while D20 Modern's feat and talent trees concept was a developmental dead end that would have been bad no matter how slick the implementation was.

-Username17

I probably missed it but was there a discussion on how the space ships work in this space adventure series?

Voss wrote:So... lasers. The playtest video shows off laser pistols in all their 'glory.' First by goblins firing at the party with bodged, jury rigged pieces of shit that did d4 points of damage. This seemed odd, but fine. Except the party also fired back with laser pistols that also did 1d4(+0) points of damage.

And I immediately went 'Buh?' Yeah. For all that they've blathered about the game being significantly different with everyone wandering around with guns and vacuum sealed armor at level one... they're firing slings at people. Fire damage slings, but still.

I wonder whats to stop people just not paying that 100 'credits' and just grabbing a length of cloth and dealing the same damage by scrounging up some rocks to sling?

If this high technology isn't any better than the things medieval peasants are using then they need to really rethink their approach to sci-fi. Because at some point in the game someone is going to hit someone with a really big stick and if its going to do as much damage as a 'vibro sword' or something then you have to ask the point of spending the money on that high tech gear.

I don't even care if that laser pistol deals something minor extra like 1d4+1 damage (Do you add strength or dex to a sling? I forget since its been years since I played PF in a group, but if you do then.. that makes this high tech even more useless).

There are things they could do to keep them relevant and make sense. I am assuming they have gone with zero of these things, but it is altogether possible that one of the following is a thing:

• Energy weapons ignore armour or beat the DR that everyone has from environmental space armour or whatever
• Laser guns are Simple because it's point-and-shoot, slings are Exotic because nobody has used them in thousands of years and the "whirl around your head" thing is weird now. So you either spend a feat or a bunch of credits or you take a -4 Penalty on attacks.
• The range is like a kilometre even for a pistol
• All rocks disappeared in the great rockastrophe of 2047

I meant one of those in jest, but if anything, that's probably the one they go with. ie "You can't just use a sling because people don't do that in this game, go fuck yourself."

erik wrote:A better model is the spell model of progression. Not surprising since casters are known to be more fun and playable. You get level gated abilities each level which don't require prerequisites and require actions and slots (which cuts ways down on synergy problems). Giving everyone their own full spell list and a handful of minor special abilities (i.e. clerics) is superior to the d20 model.

At this point, my approach to feats is to treat the concept like class abilities that multiple classes could take, so they get put into a different bucket.

So if at even levels, classes get a pick off a class list, at odd levels they get a feat, which should be similar in power to a pick off their class list but something that multiple classes might want access to.

Wizards might have a "wizards power" list, and sorcerers might have a "sorcerers power" list, but they both would potentially want access to an ability that says "you get an extra spell slot," so that becomes a feat (assuming that "you get an extra spell slot" is roughly on-par with the power level of the things on their class lists).

Kobold wrote:

Voss wrote:So... lasers. The playtest video shows off laser pistols in all their 'glory.' First by goblins firing at the party with bodged, jury rigged pieces of shit that did d4 points of damage. This seemed odd, but fine. Except the party also fired back with laser pistols that also did 1d4(+0) points of damage.

And I immediately went 'Buh?' Yeah. For all that they've blathered about the game being significantly different with everyone wandering around with guns and vacuum sealed armor at level one... they're firing slings at people. Fire damage slings, but still.

I wonder whats to stop people just not paying that 100 'credits' and just grabbing a length of cloth and dealing the same damage by scrounging up some rocks to sling?

If this high technology isn't any better than the things medieval peasants are using then they need to really rethink their approach to sci-fi. Because at some point in the game someone is going to hit someone with a really big stick and if its going to do as much damage as a 'vibro sword' or something then you have to ask the point of spending the money on that high tech gear.

I don't even care if that laser pistol deals something minor extra like 1d4+1 damage (Do you add strength or dex to a sling? I forget since its been years since I played PF in a group, but if you do then.. that makes this high tech even more useless).

That is indeed an issue. One of the things SAGA did right, in terms of feel of gameplay, is have the blasters do a bunch of damage. Generic Pistols did 3d6 and Rifles 3d8 right out of the gate. They gave PCs extra HP, but at low levels if you hit an NPC they went down. Ranges were also huge - Point Blank for a pistol was like 20 squares or something. I recall just ignoring range modifiers when running SAGA because characters rarely engaged outside of point blank range. 'Primitive' weapons were comparably crappy, even when comparing melee to melee.

Not being able to handle this is inexcusable because you have to be able to mechanically handle something like Ewoks vs. Stormtroopers in a game of this type - the players rally the primitive natives to fight the evil oppressor is such an established trope you must have means to make it happen.

Mechalich wrote:Well, it is important to remember that Disney's taking an axe to the EU had a real impact on the utility of older iterations of Star Wars games.

Hahaha, oh WOW no. Ok Prior to the launch of the new Disney star wars movies star wars was basically a dead franchise on every level. Killing the EU was effectively trivial, the prequels killed star wars long since. It was just a kick in the nuts for some tiny tiny tiny fraction of the fan base. You know, the batshit crazy obsessive fraction.

But even so, the wider audience and the potential RPG audience are different, I mean the star wars RPG community could have been made ONLY out of EU fan boys and been chugging along totally fine and been hit in the nuts by the EU purge right?

Yeah but no I don't think so, I'm pretty sure back in 2012 when trying to find ANYONE still talking about e20 for the e20 thread I discovered that the star wars Saga edition forums and communities on the internet were ALREADY basically cemeteries full of tumbleweeds THEN. Two years before the EU Purge in 2014. And that tracks pretty well for the expected lifespan for a never particularly popular RPG that had ceased to publish material 2 years before that in 2010.

We all know that the EU purge hurt YOU personally in the gonads, no one else noticed ok? It did not kill the franchise. It did not meaningfully reduce the fan base. It was not the death blow for saga edition. It just kicked YOU in the nuts personally.

Koumei wrote: [*]Energy weapons ignore armour or beat the DR that everyone has from environmental space armour or whatever

Technically they did this.
There is ENERGY AC (Lasers, energy damage, etc) and Kinetic AC (rocks/swords)

Now, I don't know how this balanced this, but if some creatures//NPCs have low Energy Lasers make sense.

Mechalich wrote:

Kobold wrote:

Voss wrote:So... lasers. The playtest video shows off laser pistols in all their 'glory.' First by goblins firing at the party with bodged, jury rigged pieces of shit that did d4 points of damage. This seemed odd, but fine. Except the party also fired back with laser pistols that also did 1d4(+0) points of damage.

And I immediately went 'Buh?' Yeah. For all that they've blathered about the game being significantly different with everyone wandering around with guns and vacuum sealed armor at level one... they're firing slings at people. Fire damage slings, but still.

I wonder whats to stop people just not paying that 100 'credits' and just grabbing a length of cloth and dealing the same damage by scrounging up some rocks to sling?

If this high technology isn't any better than the things medieval peasants are using then they need to really rethink their approach to sci-fi. Because at some point in the game someone is going to hit someone with a really big stick and if its going to do as much damage as a 'vibro sword' or something then you have to ask the point of spending the money on that high tech gear.

I don't even care if that laser pistol deals something minor extra like 1d4+1 damage (Do you add strength or dex to a sling? I forget since its been years since I played PF in a group, but if you do then.. that makes this high tech even more useless).

That is indeed an issue. One of the things SAGA did right, in terms of feel of gameplay, is have the blasters do a bunch of damage. Generic Pistols did 3d6 and Rifles 3d8 right out of the gate. They gave PCs extra HP, but at low levels if you hit an NPC they went down. Ranges were also huge - Point Blank for a pistol was like 20 squares or something. I recall just ignoring range modifiers when running SAGA because characters rarely engaged outside of point blank range. 'Primitive' weapons were comparably crappy, even when comparing melee to melee.

Not being able to handle this is inexcusable because you have to be able to mechanically handle something like Ewoks vs. Stormtroopers in a game of this type - the players rally the primitive natives to fight the evil oppressor is such an established trope you must have means to make it happen.

Slings were better in SAGA than 3.5.
Slings didn't have reload issues like 3.5 (free action). Jedi/Sith can't redirect physical attacks only energy weapons like lasers.
Yes, you could just buy a physical gun (they exist), but ammo is expensive.

Although, yes, lasers were better in most cases.

Wait... Force users couldn't redirect physical attacks? Like... at all? Or it was a different power? Because while I will totally agree that using a lightsabre to try to redirect a solid metal slug is going to be A Bad Time, saying that they can't just force-wave physical projectiles away at all...

Intercepting an object is a thing you can do in Saga. I think it's a specific Force power, but it might be a combination of the standard "move stuff" power and some talent that lets you use it as a reaction. The main thing is that it's different from the power or talent or whatever it was that Jedi/Sith use to deflect blaster bolts, and since solid projectile weapons are so much more rare, the counter to it is also scarce. The ammo for solid projectile weapons isn't all that expensive, though (it's slightly more expensive than blaster ammo, but you can still buy hundreds of bullets for the monthly salary of the "struggling" class - if you aren't making more than that as a mercenary, you are probably not a mercenary and are instead working for an organization that can keep you supplied), and they deal 2d8 damage for a rifle vs. 1d4 for a sling, so there's really not any case for a sling unless you are very poor.

Ok, that makes more sense.

So someone is collecting info on Pathfinder forum:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2tu6w?Starf ... from-paizo

So it looks like Old style weapons exist.

So why is everyone shooting weak lasers when longbows exist?
I bet they dramatically increase cost of old weapons or I can't see anyone using a laser till higher level when lasers are worth it.

So since thee are no crafting feats does that mean you can't make magic items or just anyone can I wonder.

Slade wrote:So since thee are no crafting feats does that mean you can't make magic items or just anyone can I wonder.

Since equipment is leveled and skills are check boxes, they essentially do have item creation feats. It's just that you buy item creation feats with your trained skill slots instead of with feat slots. The difference is semantics.

-Username17

Paizo unveiled one of the 'brand new' races today. Its... lizardfolk. Klingon lizardfolk. Honorable warriors who don't do science much. But who also act as mercenaries, so... Krogan.

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lj ... e-The-Vesk


You'd think with going this hard on tropes, they'd have some sort of interesting hook tacked on, but no... they teamed up with the Federation Alliance to fight off the Tyranids Rachni. Now there is an uneasy peace, and presumably there is one in an officer exchange program somewhere.

So....Has anyone played Starfinder yet? I'm looking to try and actually read the damn thing at some point, and maybe several months from now run a game. I've become a little curious about it in coming months, especially after I got the product Deck of Many Worlds that showed off there being a plethora of interesting races (Telepathic Bear People in Power Armor, brain aliens, and otter people? Hell yeah). Though I know the Paizo-ism of cool ideas, shoddy execution always being a concern.

Why not play Scum And Villainy instead?

Starfinder doesn't have 9th level spells, I am completely uninterested in it. A post-industrial revolution game that reduces the power of magic for the sake of theme and game balance is a game that categorically doesn't know what the hell.

Aryxbez wrote:So....Has anyone played Starfinder yet?

As a general rule - skip the "big name" reviews like Polygon since those tend to be closer to paid ads rather than genuine reviews.

Instead the usual thing people do nowadays is to look at multiple sources - including negative reviews - and try to see what's the consensus.

And consensus on the net by folks who played it seems to be well encapsulated by this review:

https://www.skullsplitterdice.com/a/s/b ... rpg-review

If you like Pathfinder, you’ll probably like Starfinder. It’s not perfect, it’s often overly complex and presents key information poorly. It sacrifices immersion to keep gameplay balanced, and despite their attempts at streamlining, combats are lengthy affairs that will almost certainly require multiple dives into the rulebook. However, the world is truly rich with lore and it boasts an insane variety of aliens, items, and planets for you to explore. If you’re already used to playing Pathfinder, Starfinder won’t be much of a leap for you and is probably your best option for taking your adventures to the stars. For everybody else it’s not the worst, but there are far better options out there for you.

For reference, see the reddit RPG thread where a lot of folks seem to have the same general sentiment.

https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/9 ... pinion_on/

I've played it. First off, the setting and rules are made for a certain kind of dungeon-crawling (PF standard) and don't try for verisimilitude or internal consistency. Monsters are simple to make but don't use the same rules or the same guidelines as PCs, the items you can get hold of are usually gated by the level of the PCs but not particularly by where you are (& apparently the adventure paths assume you'll be fully armed and armored on any given city street), task difficulties are often set by the level of the PCs.

The space combat system is mostly unrelated to the rest of the system. The level of your PCs still matters but very little else about them carries through.

The main plus side is familiarity for PF players. It's not exactly the same system, but it's close enough to understand pretty quickly if you know PF. Secondarily there's a fair bit of content, all the crunch that Paizo's made is available online at the Archives of Nethys and there's fluff galore if you buy the actual books.

Orion wrote:Why not play Scum And Villainy instead?

Because people never get tired of hitting nails with the butt of a screwdriver. The concept of using hammers is not only alien to them, it's inimical.

Also, I don't know the first thing about Scum and Villainy, but I can't think of many games worse than SF so I'm willing to take you at your word that it's better suited for the job (it's not a high bar).

You could honestly pick a sci fi rpg at random and you'd have a better time than Starfinder. Even Zin's negative assessment is too generous. Consider how much nerds are willing to bleed to defend their games even when they're dogshit and then, with that in mind, consider the fact that even on the home forums the average review is some version of "It's not great but it's not terrible". On their home turf with a fully bought in and captive audience who play and post about a similar rpg and who paid to fund the game they can't get a good review. Here's the true review of Starfinder: Starfinder fails on the deepest fundamental of a game: It creates frustration and cannot create joy. Don't play it.

Saga, Star Wars d20, the old 80's Alien rpg. These are all things I've been given genuine enjoyment by and every one of them in a landslide would beat the nightmare that playing Starfinder would create for you.

Aryxbez wrote:So....Has anyone played Starfinder yet? I'm looking to try and actually read the damn thing at some point, and maybe several months from now run a game. I've become a little curious about it in coming months, especially after I got the product Deck of Many Worlds that showed off there being a plethora of interesting races (Telepathic Bear People in Power Armor, brain aliens, and otter people? Hell yeah). Though I know the Paizo-ism of cool ideas, shoddy execution always being a concern.

I've played about a dozen games in a campaign.

I will start out with this : If you expect actual science fantasy you won't find it in anything more than art and terminology. The mechanics of Starfinder are absolute shit for science fiction or science fantasy settings. If you expect to do anything interesting in this, get ready for disappointment. You are ineffective at effecting the world in any meaningful way, and you can get the exact same experience out of calling a longbow a laser rifle in some other game.

I will follow with this : You MUST find the errata and start playing with that because the math is actually provably broken without it. It also fixes a ton of other things like the mechanic's hover drone being unable to hover, and falling out of the sky if it does anything besides move. And that is not an exaggeration, it actually does not work as written RAW or RAI. The entire book is filled with stuff like this.

Moving into the details:

In my 6 person group, everyone has pretty much the same skills, at the same level. So much so that at least 30 times when a skill has been asked for, everyone has said 'I can do that' and they're all close enough that you don't care who does it. That being said, if you have an operative, just let them make all the skill checks, because everyone else is worse at pretty much every skill than them.

Equipment is absurdly weak, and you are on an enforced actual MMO grind to increase your gear, by buying/find new stuff. You can't upgrade the old stuff to save money, you can't sell it for effectively any money towards a new one. Once you out level you laser rifle, you throw it out and get a new higher level one.

Monsters and players don't follow the same mechanics, which would mean more if the monsters were memorable, or players could actually do things. I have a special beef with the race selection, it's bland, uninspired and I don't know what they think androids are, but what they printed are not androids.

Magic sucks, like it's almost entirely worthless. No one wants to play a technomancer because they're gimps, and the mystic regrets his choice because he can't do anything useful with his spells, in or out of combat. This is hate boner levels of nerf on magic, a lot of it without rhyme or reason.

I wanted to play a technomancer, but it's so bad I didn't even need to look at for more than 10 minutes before finding it easily the weakest class. I went mechanic because it was the only one that seemed like it could do anything interesting. Then I ran the numbers on hacking and found out it was mathematically impossible for me to do anything unless I was 5 or more levels above the item level of what I was hacking, and I had keep the skill maxed at every opportunity. I can't craft anything, because it's exactly the same as buying it. I have a 'pet' in my drone that gets 1 action a round unless I direct it using my actions. Woo, I'm feeling the high tech here.

Ships are really, really stupid. They don't make sense in terms of mass/size, the mechanics for having to work as a crew are pretty shitty for forced 'everyone helps' and (assuming you're using the serrated numbers so you're not screwed out of being able to pilot your ship) they're a solved problem: go fast, have the longest ranged weapons.

I want to turn around on ships here and bad math again. When you level up, even if your ship doesn't change, it literally gets harder for you to make the exact same check you've been making the entire previously level.

Autoscaling DCs abound, and are mostly poorly thought out, besides autoscaling DCs being bullshit to begin with.

On top of all of this, the books layout is horrific, and finding anything in it is a dumpster fire. I've played it for a couple months and I still can't find basic shit like how grenades work with out involving 3 other people. I gave up even trying and just copied the relevant rules down in my notes program so I don't waste 10 minutes to throw a grenade for d6 damage to 1 creature.

Combat is also boring bullshit. In 12 sessions, I was attacked once. I have the highest damage output, but because everyone of my turns (again not exaggerating) is 'I shoot, my drone shoots, done' that nothing ever pays attention to me because no one realizes I'm the damage dealer. I'd like to pretend I know the difference between stamina and HP, but I don't, and I don't really care.

It's a shit game that only has even an inkling of success because it's Paizo that published it.