Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

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The Adventurer's Almanac
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Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

These kinds of threads did well once upon a time, and since I'm stuck in a campaign right now I was hoping we could do some collective bitching about the latest and greatest coming out of WotC.

I've never been in a 5e prewritten adventure before, and everyone from the other players to the GM himself bitches about how awful and confusing they are. We're doing Rime of the Frost Maiden, and there's a point where you kill some kobolds in a cave, take out the boss kobold, and then a ghost jumps out of the kobold, possesses a party member, and one-shots anyone trying to stop it. All this ghost wants to do, apparently, is take its bag of nature druid shit and go all the way to Neverwinter... 2 weeks away. There's no other mention of what this ghost is supposed to do. I haven't read the book, so I hope it's not a common issue, but one of the other players mentioned that he's had this EXACT issue in a completely different adventure.
Do they really just write shit up with no forethought like this? Is the goal of this ghost to just fuck up the path? Is my GM just a dumbass who didn't read enough of the book?

Either way, while I am definitely experiencing the "typical" prewritten problems like railroading and blatantly clashing exposition... how much is the game and how much is my GM? I've had friends who have taken some material from existing adventures, but not actually run one. I always have the distinct feeling that I'm not supposed to be rocking the boat too much, like I'm supposed to follow the party into town, receive a cutscene that has an NPC who is so obviously relevant that they may as well have a fucking MMORPG exclamation point over their heads, get exposited at more, then go off to a 3-5 room dungeon with a bunch of easy enemies.

Is this the intended design? Am I supposed to feel so... hollow?
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by Thaluikhain »

"Rime of the Frost Maiden"?

Not as clever a title as "I, Tyrant".

EDIT : Please tell me there's no puns based around the word "hoar".
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

Oooooh, there's even a song for the Frost Maiden. God dammit.
I was too busy being a judgmental prick to even realize the pun. I have not noticed any 'hoar' puns yet, but now I feel compelled to make them.
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by deaddmwalking »

The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 4:15 am
Is this the intended design? Am I supposed to feel so... hollow?
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

I alternate between stealing the scene and being completely silent. It's... weird. I feel like that has little to do with the adventure itself.
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by Dogbert »

The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 4:15 am
Is this the intended design? Am I supposed to feel so... hollow?
...and helpless, yes.

5E APs are hot garbage as a general rule if you care for player agency or anything resembling consistency with the rules (because it's 5E, thus hey, what rules?), and players are meant to be outgunned and outnumbered nearly every encounter as to be ever dependent on mommy master, so the only ways forward beyond the pace intended by your GM are either being very good at sucking dick, or being as good at lateral thinking as at bullshitting the GM into letting you apply said out-of-the-box solutions (or alternatively, sucking dick).

Then again, the average 5E player is reactive and rules-averse to begin with, so all I've mentioned so far is a non issue as far as the target demo is concerned.
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

Ah, yes, helpless. I can't even bullshit my GM most of the time because he's so set on following the adventure path.

That ghost I mentioned? The one who possesses people? It possessed our Fire Genasi and seemed to have no idea it was inhabiting someone else's body. Since we're level 2 and we obviously don't have any way of getting the thing out by force (short of dropping our party member to 0 HP), I had a brilliant idea that got my dick sucked by the other players. I asked the ghost when was the last time he remembered having FLAMING HAIR AND HANDS in a vain attempt to get the ghost to realize it was dead. It was completely ineffectual, he didn't get a save to throw off control, the ghost just fucking ignored me and kept asking for help bringing its stupid fucking satchel off to Not-Where-Our-Fucking-Adventure-Path-Is. At this point I was sick of this hostage situation bullshit and told him to give our friend back or else we were going to destroy the satchel, and then it hit me on a roll of 24 and did my full HP in damage.
So I sat there being butthurt while the only 2 party members who could do something attacked our possessed Fire Genasi and got the ghost out. Fortunately, the ghost phased into a wall and stayed there instead of doing anything clever like possessing someone else, because it apparently gets that ability back when it rolls a 6 at the start of its turn. What a clusterfuck.

Me and the Fire Genasi bonded over our mutual butthurt and we're coming back in 5 or 6 levels to shit on this stupid fucking ghost.
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by JigokuBosatsu »

Your MC sounds like a complete shitbag. Is there a "reverse Oberoni" where no matter how creative an action the PCs come up with, the MC can always squish it down to RAW?
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by virgil »

Rule -1 is the parlance around here, IIRC.
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

JigokuBosatsu wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 3:21 am
Your MC sounds like a complete shitbag. Is there a "reverse Oberoni" where no matter how creative an action the PCs come up with, the MC can always squish it down to RAW?
It's always astounding when a GM shits the bed so hard that he knows it immediately after doing so. The game ground to a halt when that ghost popped out as he scrambled to find some kind of notes on it, only for him to stick to RAW because we're playing a fucking 5e adventure path and I don't know what I expected and THEN apologized to us afterwards for having the dungeon go from a 2 in difficulty to an 8 or 9.
The worst kind of GMing is the one where everyone is unsatisfied at the end of the night. Even the fucking GM.
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by Dogbert »

JigokuBosatsu wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 3:21 am
Your MC sounds like a complete shitbag. Is there a "reverse Oberoni" where no matter how creative an action the PCs come up with, the MC can always squish it down to RAW?
Oh the Literalist GM, the reason why I avoid canned adventures like the plague.
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by JigokuBosatsu »

virgil wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 6:44 am
Rule -1 is the parlance around here, IIRC.
Aahhhhhh that sounds about right
Omegonthesane wrote:a glass armonica which causes a target city to have horrific nightmares that prevent sleep
JigokuBosatsu wrote:so a regular glass armonica?
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by ColorBlindNinja61 »

Late last year, my players wanted me to convert Tomb of Annihilation into 3.5. Good god that module is shit. I constantly have to keep changing things, it's so bad as written.

From random encounters that are all but guaranteed to TPK low level groups, to maps so confusing I couldn't read them, to the opening adventure hooks being weak AF, ToA has been consistently awful.

I think my favorite part is when the module said the PCs have to survive by their wits and no one is going to save them! Then, on the same page, the book goes on to timidly suggest the DM might Deus Ex Machina a way for them to survive.
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by JigokuBosatsu »

The little bit I've looked at it it is indeed terrible. At least they were upfront about the annihilation part.
Omegonthesane wrote:a glass armonica which causes a target city to have horrific nightmares that prevent sleep
JigokuBosatsu wrote:so a regular glass armonica?
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

ColorBlindNinja61 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 8:32 pm
I think my favorite part is when the module said the PCs have to survive by their wits and no one is going to save them! Then, on the same page, the book goes on to timidly suggest the DM might Deus Ex Machina a way for them to survive.
Isn't that just every OSR game in a nutshell?
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by ColorBlindNinja61 »

The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 12:09 am
ColorBlindNinja61 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 8:32 pm
I think my favorite part is when the module said the PCs have to survive by their wits and no one is going to save them! Then, on the same page, the book goes on to timidly suggest the DM might Deus Ex Machina a way for them to survive.
Isn't that just every OSR game in a nutshell?
Wouldn't know, I tend to avoid OSR games. I just thought it was hilarious.
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by amethal »

The designers of Tomb of Annihilation always seemed to take the opposite approach to how I'd have done it, right from the start. From what I can remember, my reaction went something like this:

Me "Great, an adventure set way outside the Sword Coast, where we can play Chultans trying to restore their civilisation after the setting crapped on them from a great height over several editions"
Adventure "The adventure assumes the PCs are from outside the region and have recently arrived in the Port."
Me "Okaay. I suppose the "fish out of water" bit could still be interesting, and at least this way we have the dramatic opening, with the PCs' ship being confronted by the local Dragon Turtle that demands tribute from all the vessels that pass through its territory."
Adventure "The PCs arrive after being teleported by their patron; they don't encounter the Dragon Turtle."
Me "A patron? So when they go exploring and tomb robbing, it's under the terms of their employment contract?"
Adventure "They are aren't being employed to explore, they are being employed to investigate the Death Curse."
Me "Why do they care about the Death Curse?"
Adventure "They don't. Their employer cares about the Death Curse."
Me "But they can still explore as much as they like, enjoy the sandbox, and investigate whichever of the region's many mysteries takes their fancy?"
Adventure "No, because if they take too long the Death Curse will kill their employer (and lots of other powerful people, who are doing absolutely nothing about it)."
Me "So how long have they actually got? It's difficult to make resource management a thing in 5th edition, but I guess if Time is a resource it might result in some difficult decisions and trade-offs. Getting lost in the jungle could have actual consequences."
Adventure "They've got as long as it takes, they just don't know that."

I think the most interesting story is the one that happened before the PCs ever arrived. Just how did the locals kick out Amn and gain control of the Port? We aren't told, but a game to remove the colonial overlords might be a lot of fun.
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by ColorBlindNinja61 »

amethal wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:27 pm
Me "But they can still explore as much as they like, enjoy the sandbox, and investigate whichever of the region's many mysteries takes their fancy?"
Adventure "No, because if they take too long the Death Curse will kill their employer (and lots of other powerful people, who are doing absolutely nothing about it)."
Me "So how long have they actually got? It's difficult to make resource management a thing in 5th edition, but I guess if Time is a resource it might result in some difficult decisions and trade-offs. Getting lost in the jungle could have actual consequences."
Adventure "They've got as long as it takes, they just don't know that."
It's been a while since I read that part of the module, but I recall there being a, "If the DM feels like you took too long, Game Over!", time limit.
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

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ColorBlindNinja61 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 8:32 pm
Late last year, my players wanted me to convert Tomb of Annihilation into 3.5. Good god that module is shit. I constantly have to keep changing things, it's so bad as written.
Is there a particular reason they wanted a Tomb of Annihilation conversion, as opposed to using the existing 3e Tomb of Horrors Revised module which was, if not fantastic, at least miles ahead of any possible 5e adventure path port?
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by Krusk »

that module is frustratingly bad. Its got so much cool stuff potential, and constantly goes out of its way to yank it from the players hands or keep it hidden from them. Its a hexcrawl, but 99% of the hexes are empty, and there is no incentive to get to any of the ones that have interesting stuff.

Actually playing it consists of
Act 1 - DMPC tells pays you to do a job you don't really care about. (ours teleported us to a boat, and had us sail in so we got to do the dragon turtle. We got cash from the DMPC to start us out, and the turtle took all of it... thanks? Should have been a sign)
Act 2 - Dick around in a city that teases a bunch of cool stuff without getting too deep into it.
Act 3 - Mill about the jungle aimlessly, because you know metagame that's what you're supposed to do. No one in town knows about this curse, or where the temple might be, so just go wander doing random encounters and hoping you guess your way to a cool hex with a cool encounter. This is the longest act.
Act 4 - DM gets bored and railroads you to the final dungeon. (Seriously google it. this is what everyone does)
Act 5 - Grind through a dungeon full of DM fuck you magic and poorly described puzzles filled with fuck you no creative solution powers.
Act 6 - Fix the soul monger/curse plot you forgot about that you were told about in Act 1. You kill a big fetus monster or something and somehow that ends it? Its not clear, and you don't really care so you don't ask questions.

I can see the reason a player might think it was cool and worth playing. Its new, technically has cool stuff in it, and presents well. Some of the individual encounters are even cool. There is just nothing tying any of it together and nothing to make you care.
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by Kaelik »

How much are you supposed to level up during your random hexcrawl?

It seems like designing a module hexcrawl where each hex has an encounter that scales or changes based on the parties level /time in the sense that "ah well you were grinding elsewhere, so this happened" could be cool. But given everything else people have said here I'm assuming it's just static encounters and you just have to hope you hit ones you can handle in order to grind for later ones.
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by ColorBlindNinja61 »

Kaelik wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 4:57 pm
How much are you supposed to level up during your random hexcrawl?
There's a city the party is tasked with reaching early on that's around ECL 7, if memory serves. Their advice to keep them entering it too early? Describe it as a dangerous place. Does that ever work?
Kaelik wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 4:57 pm
It seems like designing a module hexcrawl where each hex has an encounter that scales or changes based on the parties level /time in the sense that "ah well you were grinding elsewhere, so this happened" could be cool. [But given everything else people have said here I'm assuming it's just static encounters and you just have to hope you hit ones you can handle in order to grind for later ones.
It's exactly like that. In fact, it's worse, because ToA uses a level agnostic encounter chart. All it cares about is terrain type and nothing is stopping your low level party from encountering something that will absolutely destroy them.

My favorite example is a gang of Frost Giants that will explicitly attack the party if they refuse to answer their questions, but I saw some of the 5e fans complaining about Zombie Girallons.
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by ColorBlindNinja61 »

Emerald wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:48 pm
ColorBlindNinja61 wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 8:32 pm
Late last year, my players wanted me to convert Tomb of Annihilation into 3.5. Good god that module is shit. I constantly have to keep changing things, it's so bad as written.
Is there a particular reason they wanted a Tomb of Annihilation conversion, as opposed to using the existing 3e Tomb of Horrors Revised module which was, if not fantastic, at least miles ahead of any possible 5e adventure path port?
I don't recall exactly why they were initially enamored with ToA. I just thought it might be fun to convert a module to 3.5 and run it, that was the one they picked.
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by amethal »

ColorBlindNinja61 wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:28 pm
My favorite example is a gang of Frost Giants that will explicitly attack the party if they refuse to answer their questions, but I saw some of the 5e fans complaining about Zombie Girallons.
I actually quite like the idea of the Frost Giants encounter - they've basically wandered in from a completely different adventure, and are absolutely miserable in the jungle heat. Low-level PCs should realise fighting a band of giants is suicide, and should either tell them what they want to hear (just make it up if you don't know the answer) or run away - if I was DMing it I'd make it clear the giants are in no shape to chase after them (give them whatever level of fatigue that worked out at) although I doubt that is something the actual adventure does.

They are the only decent part of the "plot" about the guy wandering aimlessly through the jungle with the artefact ring (apart from the chance you could come across a frozen stretch of jungle and wonder what the hell happened).

There's lots to like in Tomb of Annihilation. If it was a $5 PDF on DMs Guild, consisting of a bunch of ideas for encounters in Chult that you could flesh out and tailor to your party, I'd be very happy with it. As a flagship WotC adventure path, which could potentially be someone's first attempt at DMing a published campaign, it's a disaster. I enjoy ripping the guts out of published adventures (especially if I then run it in a different system to the one it was written for), and even I'm thinking it'd be easier just to ignore it and write my own.

(Girallons have been bad news in most editions. I remember in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil we encountered a dragon with a girallon as a pet, and after the fight we wondered whether actually it was the dragon that was the girallon's pet.)
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Re: Complaining about 5e Adventure Paths

Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

amethal wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 8:56 am
(Girallons have been bad news in most editions. I remember in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil we encountered a dragon with a girallon as a pet, and after the fight we wondered whether actually it was the dragon that was the girallon's pet.)
CR4, but it can climb up walls effortlessly and has 5 attacks, four of which have reach?
I can see why the average 5e player might shit their pants at a gang of them.
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