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Review: Shadowverse (Japanese Hearthstone)
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There are neutral Blood variants that have stopped running Spawn (Phantom Cat is the hip new experiment) and probably still kick ass.

The deal with neutral Blood is that it is both the deck with the best tempo and the deck with the best ways to counter an opponent's tempo. If both players hit their curve, you have Tove and Knuckle and the other side doesn't so they can get fucked. If you don't hit your curve and the other guy does you've still got shit like Tove (overstatted), Grimnir (ward), and Goblin Leader (must remove) to stall until you can play Knuckle and Scarlet, at which point the game is back under control so they can get fucked.

There is no reason not to play neutral Blood. Neutral Blood is both the best deck and the best counter for the best deck. Spawn? That's just insult on top of injury when the injury is being kicked in the balls, set on fire, and pushed down the stairs.

Also, my instinct is that if they nerf neutral Blood, neutral Haven will take its place. I've been wondering since the very start "why isn't neutral Haven a meta deck?", and I didn't really figure it out until I realized what I talked about above. Neutral Haven loses the mirror-match-in-all-but-name against neutral Blood, so even if it kicked 99% of the ass neutral Blood did it wouldn't be able to justify its existence. Storm Haven, at least, can boast that it loses against neutral Blood less than other decks - which is enough to make it one of the best picks for your second deck at tournies. Rolling Eyes
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OgreBattle
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I have two Phantom Cats and no spawn of abyss/cthulhu's, what are the bronze and silver cards to build around Phantom Cat with?
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Josh_Kablack
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Alice Spawn deck is trying to stay even until the t5 Baphomet into t6 Spawn into t7 attack for the win. It can win without a Spawn, but that's not the primary plan.

The Phantom Cat deck is trying to win on a bunch of chip damage and/or getting the gobbo leader snowballing advantage, so it goes even heavier into the neutral package and drops the Baphomet Search deal.

1-Drops:
Goblin
Wise Merman

2-Drops
Lyriel / Unica
Actress Feria
Tove
Razory Claw
Maybe: additional removal like Hungering Horde / Vampric Kiss /

3-Drops:
Goblin Leader
Grimnar / Angelic Knight
Maybe: Goblin Mage / Gourmet Emporor / Rapunzel

4-Drops
ALICE!!!! sorry but this is the mostest must-craftest Legendary ever seen in a Shadowverse "Meta." Get 3 or lose.
Knuckles
Maybe: Goblinbreaker Teena, Dark General, Demonic Strike

5-Drops:
Scarlet
Goblin Princess
Maybe: Fortunehunter Feena, Hector, Snow, Mountaineer, Dance of Death, Diabolic Drain

6 Drops
Phantom Cat
Maybe: Carabosse
Maybe: Imp Lancer

Maybe a storm 7 drop such as Alucard or Emeralda -- but not if you're running Carabosse.
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Josh_Kablack
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So the Dark Alice Deck is basically the Neph earlygame into Dark Alice plus Test of Strength backed up by Lucifer, Arriet, Isafril and Zeus. It's not good enough to beat Blood variants stomping the meta, Dark Alice is vulnerable to all the mass transform Rune is currently running against Spawn--but it's pretty nearly unfair to Sword.
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OgreBattle
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've got most of that but Alice Wonderland, never drew one and don't want to craft a legendary I feel is haram for the game.

Was using Baphomets to draw the 9pt 5drain vampire and Cats, will try removing the baphomets and 9pointers for more cheap cards
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Baphomet is a common but not essential card for Phantom Cat. Don't be too afraid to run 1-2x. Get rid of the Temptress Vampires, though. They are way too slow when you end up drawing them instead of cheating them out.

If you do decide to run Baphomet, Phantom Cat, and no Spawn (this part is important), don't be afraid to play Baphomet without its enhance effect. You'll be able to play Phantom Cat on T6 either way and the final mana cost is exactly the same, so all the enhance effect does is (in practice) shuffle a 2-3pp play from one turn to the next. Do you want that Grimnir in your hand to hit the table with the Baphomet or the Phantom Cat?
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

https://twitter.com/shadowversegame/status/887244868245798913

Hey, look. An announcement about an announcement about some nerfs.

It took them 19 days to tell us "oops" and it'll take them 31 days to tell us how they're going to (fail to) fix it.

It's kind of hard to still give a shit. I mean, legendary nerfs, yay? But at this point, I expect them to break the game with every expansion and leave it that way for a month each time. Why the fuck would I ever play? The only interest I have left in Shadowrun is as a spectator to a trainwreck.
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Whipstitch
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, I haven't been playing and the more I fall behind on vials from not grinding the less interested I become. The whole "just dust entire crafts" gameplan isn't terribly appealing either given that it seems they're just going to end up rotating which craft fucks everyone in the earhole every expansion.
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Omegonthesane
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Unless they render Alice unplayable Neutralcraft is going to be good enough for dailies until the game actually dies outright. I've enjoyed unranked enough to keep up with dailies though, and even tolerated ranked while embracing the blood cancer, so clearly I'm a deranged madman. (This may also be borne out by me crafting three Merlins just to dick about with D-Shift.)

I remember being surprised at how many vials I got for deciding that animated cards were generally to be liquefied; the only ones I have now are Soulsquasher, Vania, and Daria and those only because I haven't drawn a third non-animated one of each. (and won't until some time in August if ever, since I'm stacking up WD cards ready for the nerfs)

(and I'm a bit trigger happy about liquefying trash legendaries. Honestly not sure why my three Mintys aren't vials at the moment, beyond lack of a good idea of what specifically to cash them in for.)
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As far as death and human misery goes, Tobacco is basically World War II grinding on forever with no real sign of stopping in our life times. Death camps and nuclear bombs and stuff are certainly dramatic, but public health crises are always and forever bigger than wars on the global scale.

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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The secret is that Blood and Haven have Batman themes that the designers keep giving all the things. Even if they are not broken in any particular expansion, they're probably going to have a viable deck or two simply out of versatility.

Contrast that with Forest and Sword, which are joke crafts which get nothing. Each has basically one 'core' to work with and if that one core doesn't get enough shiny new toys each expansion the entire craft is just a pile of dust waiting for you to realize it.

Shadowcraft and Runecraft are the inconsistent ones. They've both been kings for a day, but it's not clear they have the staying power Blood and Haven do.

Dragoncraft is Walletcraft, so if you're trying to make the most out of a little don't run Dragoncraft.

So the tl;dr is you definitely keep one of either Blood or Haven, and then you shouldn't feel bad keeping 1-2 of Shadow, Rune, and whichever of Blood/Haven you didn't pick. But you dust Forest, Sword, and Dragon. I chose Blood and Shadow when I started without knowing any of this, and just kind of ended up lucky. I was starting to pick up Rune when my fucks ran out.
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Omegonthesane
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, Haven is legendarily tier-2 in every meta while Blood was in the top 3 in the reign of Eggtart and Wallet Dragon during ToTG.

I've mentioned I just maintain a whole stable of netdecks; currently the Forest one I use if I want to actually win is all neutrals except for Elf Twin Assault and Beauty and the Beast, because occasionally a turn 6 shitty knockoff of Heavenly Aegis is enough when combined with the Alice engine. Maybe want to get some more use out of that in case they prioritise nuking the Alice engine instead of Blood's ridiculous tempo package.

There's a case to be made for nuking Sword if you just want to use interesting mechanics, since the only theme it has left is SMorc - other crafts do Ambush better, and while Officer-Commander synergy was never great it's now been eclipsed by the Alice engine.

Of course now I wonder how the hell I have so many vials that I think of liquefying archetypes to keep up instead of liquefying entire classes. I only paid in for the animated versions of Cerberus and Forte, everything else was F2P.
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Kaelik wrote:
Because powerful men get away with terrible shit, and even the public domain ones get ignored, and then, when the floodgates open, it turns out there was a goddam flood behind it.
FrankTrollman wrote:
As far as death and human misery goes, Tobacco is basically World War II grinding on forever with no real sign of stopping in our life times. Death camps and nuclear bombs and stuff are certainly dramatic, but public health crises are always and forever bigger than wars on the global scale.

FrankTrollman wrote:
White people are basically just horrible...The entire Reagan Revolution is just white people voting to destroy their own social safety nets because they'd rather fucking starve than let black people eat.



Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath, Justin Bieber, shitmuffin


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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The time for emergency nerfs/bans was a week ago, not two weeks from now.
And they haven't promised massive nerfs, they promised card changes, and they've already announced that more than five cards need piddly shit errata. Did you know that Dragonblader banishes the bonus dragon when you evo it rather than destroying it? Do you give a shit?

I'm not terribly hopeful that they can right this ship. Cygames playing a wait and see game and trying to do minimal nerfs worked out OK when Daria was merely overplayed in RoB or Midrange Shadow was only a little bit too good in TotG. But Alice Blood is completely broken and destroying the game.

Blood had a playrate north of 46% last week, and Alice Blood in particular had a playrate more than any two entire crafts combined. One deck outnumbered all the other decks under any two leaders you happen to name. And it had no bad matchups, with just a couple Shadow and Rune decks that were good enough against it to be only slightly unfavored. There's no reason or mechanism for Alice Blood to become any less oppressive unless and until nerfs or bans happen. Cygames playing a wait and see approach is fucking insane.

When a company sees data like that, they need to issue emergency patches. Like when Wizards of the Coast saw the Amonkhet rollout and emergency banned Copycat. Every day that goes by makes it more unlikely that Shadowverse can survive this disaster, and Cygames sticking to its schedule is hubris, not wisdom.

-Frank
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Fun fact; if Steam stats are any indicator, Shadowverse has less players now than it did before they released Wonderland Dreams. This is in spite of the fact that Wonderland Dream's release day smashed the former all-time high by something like 50%. You can legitimately argue that it would have been more profitable to take the money they spent developing Wonderland Dreams and burning it in a hobo barrel to heat their office. The game would have about as many players and they would have saved some money on their heating bill.
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Josh_Kablack
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So at the moment there are 2 Neutral Blood variants stomping the meta1: Spawn and Phantom Cat. There is significant overlap between them and some varaints run both Spawn and Phantom Cat, but one hopes for a t7 OTK while the other just hopes to pile up a total of 20 damage before Spawn can swing.

But when those get nerfed into sanity, Haven is going to be the place to be. There are currently 4 Haven decks that are just a hair out of the meta:

  • Alice / Lion Haven - This uses the most new cards but it has to draw both enough Neutrals and a Lion and a meaningful Countdown amulet in the first 4-6 turns of the game to win.
  • Storm Haven - This loves Birdkeeper and Tea Parties. At the moment it has to run some Iron Maiden and Themis as Spawn answers - which slow it down to a midrange deck.
  • Elena Haven - Tenko.
  • Control / Aegis Haven.


But the real reason that Haven is going to be strong is that the correct tactics against each of those differ:

Against Control Haven you want to do as much face damage as possible all the damned time. Unless you are D-Shift or Seraph, you're likely losing after Aegis drops, and most of their cards trade for 2 of yours so you do not want to try to trade or win board.

Against Elena Haven you want to wipe their board all the time, if they get a follower out it will grow and kill you.

Against Storm Haven you generally want to do face damage, but you need to be mindful of how much turn6+evolve burst damage Garuda or Dark Jeanne can give them.

Against Alice / Lion Haven you want to clear the early board of all neutrals before Alice / Feria / Merfolk boosts them. But this variant is unlikely to run healing, so you'd generally rather do face damage than kill a Haven follower.

But you often cannot tell which Haven variant you are playing against until turn 3. Any of these decks could be running Sacred Plea, Beastly Vow, Snow White, and Blackened Scripture.
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Omegonthesane
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

To be fair, unless the Alice engine is nuked all the way into oblivion, it's going to be hard to tell what variant of many decks you are facing. (I'd like to see Alice and Feria give +1/+0 so that Israfil is relevant again)
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Kaelik wrote:
Because powerful men get away with terrible shit, and even the public domain ones get ignored, and then, when the floodgates open, it turns out there was a goddam flood behind it.
FrankTrollman wrote:
As far as death and human misery goes, Tobacco is basically World War II grinding on forever with no real sign of stopping in our life times. Death camps and nuclear bombs and stuff are certainly dramatic, but public health crises are always and forever bigger than wars on the global scale.

FrankTrollman wrote:
White people are basically just horrible...The entire Reagan Revolution is just white people voting to destroy their own social safety nets because they'd rather fucking starve than let black people eat.



Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath, Justin Bieber, shitmuffin
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What I'd really like is for Alice and Feria to stop interacting with Neutrals at all, because that is parasitic bullshit. If Feria was "Evolve: give a permanent +1/+1 to one other allied follower" it would be sometimes better than Lyrial. If Alice was "all followers in your hand get +1/+1" then she'd be a card for control and ramp strategies.

But of course it probably doesn't matter. According to Steam stats, Shadowverse hemmorhaged 63% of its players in the last 3 weeks. The time for emergency bans already happened and it's likely too late.
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
But of course it probably doesn't matter. According to Steam stats, Shadowverse hemmorhaged 63% of its players in the last 3 weeks. The time for emergency bans already happened and it's likely too late.

That's a little misleading. The release of WD was like a 150% increase, so it's not like they didn't have new (or returning) players to spare. The most relevant comparison is probably pre-WD to now, which is a 10% decrease.

It is definitely too late to salvage Wonderland Dreams; all the players who showed up (or came back) for the hype are gone and they almost certainly didn't stick around long enough for Cygames to make back the expansion's development cost. But the game itself is in the same state it was at the end of TotG; slow decline, plenty of time to turn things around. Not that I think they will, because they are clearly idiots, but you know.

Better men than they could right this ship, but neither man nor god could make Wonderland Dreams profitable. That opportunity is simply over. They would have had to deliver nerfs by the end of the first week to stop Wonderland Dreams from imploding.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think that after the second meta report that they could have announced that they were going to do emergency nerfs in a few days. That would have been fast enough to salvage things.

Sticking to the previously announced card update schedule is fucking insane. They have a broken meta where a single deck has no bad matchups. It is not possible for the meta to improve. It can literally only get worse.

Cygames treating this situation like a normal situation means that they are bad at math. I don't see how they could possibly fix this situation if they don't know what a Nash Equilibrium is, and if they know what a Nash Equilibrium is they should know that a scenario where one option has a favorable matchup against literally every other option is something that should inspire pant-shitting terror in their developers.

-Frank
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Josh_Kablack
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Omegonthesane wrote:
To be fair, unless the Alice engine is nuked all the way into oblivion, it's going to be hard to tell what variant of many decks you are facing.


True,

But the generally correct tactics against anything running an Alice engine are to deny their board. Because Wise Merfolk, Feria, Alice, and even Angelic Knight mean that anything left on their board is likely to get bigger and harder to kill. This contrasts pretty starkly with my point that the generally correct tactics against each of the four almost-relevant Haven decks vary depending which deck.
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fectin
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If Alice didn't boost in-play AND in-hand, she almost not be worth playing. I shuffled a few into my otherwise pre-wonderland Dragon-neutral deck, and they're only barely better than the Gilgamesh and Goblin Princess they replaced. Dark Angel Olivia was much, much bigger boost, because it gave me 2-3 alternate paths to victory.

That said, post-wonderland has been a lot less fun. Cthulhu is the same bullshit inevitability as Aegis, and is just not fun. And, while I was glad that neutral got a little support, this thing where suddenly every faction has abandoned its own thing to gargle neutral balls is somewhat off-putting.

Seems very familiar from Warlords' mercenary faction.
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Josh_Kablack
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

fectin wrote:
If Alice didn't boost in-play AND in-hand, she almost not be worth playing.


She's still a 3/4 for 4. If they are not going to dump the "all neutrals all the time" synergy the way that deck diversity requires; then the next best patch would be to changes her current fanfare into an Evolve effect, reduce her evolve stats to +1/+1 and make her a Basic card that they give away in a tutorial mission.


Quote:

That said, post-wonderland has been a lot less fun. Cthulhu is the same bullshit inevitability as Aegis, and is just not fun.


Oh it's bullshit, but it is a distinctly different flavor of bullshit.

Unlike Aegis, all crafts have at least partial answers to Spawn: Haven has Iron Maiden, Naoise, Tribunal, Themis, etc. Rune has Prof of Taboos' Mutagenic Bolt and Winter's Caprice. Forest has Will of the Forest and Elf-Twins Assault. Shadow has Khway, Sword has Roland, and even Blood has Revelation.

Against Spawn, if you don't have any of those and/or wards on the right turn you just lose.

Compare to Aegis where the only non-haven "answers" are "win first" or Roland, and the longer the game goes the more advantage Aegis gains.

Spawn would merely set up a strong turn 9 win condition (turn 8 if you saved an evolve against an opponent you'd gotten into the single digits) if Baph wasn't cheating it out 3 turns early and Blood didn't also get Tove, Knuckles, Scarlet and Esmeralda this set. In light of those cards, it has gone from a slight powercreep over the last set's good cards to brokenly good.

But since they are not going to ban Baph, the best answer would probably be to change Spawn's "attacks from ambush" ability to a Clash from ambush ability. That way if it hits the board, it is very very likely to do 6-8 damage to an opponent, but it could no longer swing for 16 and combo with Alucard/Esmeralda for a t7 OTK.

I mean Neutral Blood is problematically good at the moment even when it doesn't run Spawn. Decks that go heavier into the earlygame neutral rush and try to win on Phantom Cat or Carabosse chip damage are holding even (maybe better) in head to head with Spawn decks. (Having to drop a 2/1 or turn 5) and then droping something on turn 6 that you want to sit for a turn before evolving and swinging does give an aggro-opponent a pretty good window to try to close things out. And heck, I've been toying with a variant that uses enhanced Bandersnatch to get a pair of {Alucard, Soul Dominator, Gilgamesh, Zeus, Stolen Life stat boost} on the board on turn 8 to swing for the win -- and even that seems to be batting above .500 in the current meta.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The problem with Spawn is its ridiculous versatility. You can play it and immediately evolve and attack, and then it works like an Albert where you spend an evo point and do a bunch of storm damage to the face. You can play it and sit on it for a turn, and then it works like Wolf Bolt or Seraph where you pass a turn and then unleash hell the following turn. And on top of that you have the option of Baphomet on Turn 5 where you take a modest tempo hit in order to get all these finisher choices on Turn 6 instead of turn 8 or 9 - in which case it works like Cerberus + Phantom Howl (tempo hit on turn 5 to enable turn 6 finisher).

Obviously all the other finishers in the game have various advantages over Spawn. Albert does 10 face damage instead of 8, although he costs more and is easier to gum up with ward creatures. Seraph outright wins the game instead of "only" doing 16 damage to the face, but of course requires much more combo pieces to come together. Cerberus is less of a tempo hit because you get a 3/3 on T5 instead of a 2/1, but you need to draw the Howl naturally rather than immediately tutoring it out of your deck. But the thing is that Spawn does a good enough impersonation of all those other finisher options from all those other factions, and you get to decide during play which version you want to use it as. Whichever one will win you the game is simply good enough to make you win. If you can do 12 face damage before you play it, you just win on the spot. If you can afford to pass a turn and your opponent has most of their life left you can play it and and pass. The choice is yours.

And to add insult to injury, if your opponent blows it up with Bahamut, they take 6 damage to the face anyway.

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OgreBattle
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

https://shadowverse.com/news/?announce_id=336

Tove is now 2/2 "gain rush when allied neutral drops"

Goblin Leader is 2/3 and 4 cost

Baphomet is "put a random bloodcraft follower in hand"

Spawn is "deal 5 damage when ambush is up or killed with ambush" and no addtional powers

Snow White is 2/2 when evolved

Grimnir is "deal 4 to enemy FOLLOWERS"
Oroboros loses its heal 3

I'm happy with these nerfs, though snow white was never a problem for me. Leaving Alice untouched though, we'll see.

Do they never buff cards though? I'd like to see other legendaries made useful


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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Nerf both Baphomet and Spawn, but neither Alice nor Knuckle? Ouroboros, but not Eachtar?

There went my last fucks.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

DSMatticus wrote:
Nerf both Baphomet and Spawn, but neither Alice nor Knuckle? Ouroboros, but not Eachtar?

There went my last fucks.


Nerfing 2 cards in Dragon while it's the number 5 craft out of 7? Sure!

I lack confidence that these nerfs are going to be enough to stop Alice Blood from being alone in Tier 1. They have to stop playing Tove and Spawn, but BKB, Scarlet, and Phantom Cat are all unaffected. It's not like there's any shortage of 2 drop neutrals to substitute for the lost Toves. Goblin Mage and Gourmet Emperor are good enough in the Goblin Leader slot.

There's no clear plan to fix the metagame. Or rather, there is clearly no plan to fix the metagame or even an acknowledgement that they broke the metagame in the first place. Cygames obviously has no idea how to get out of the hole and I don't see why I'd want to play ranked any more.
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