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One Feat Per Level: An Open Discussion
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Red_Rob
Prince


Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 2556

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:
Leadership shouldn't be a feat at all, since it's just "everyone takes it and you army manage" or "no one takes it" that's just a decision you make at character creation that is like deciding to play a game at level 8 or level 1.


This. Leadership feats were a cludge based on the fact that in 1e and to a certain extent 2e AD&D you were expected to transition to a kingdom management "phase" of the game once you got to a high enough level. In 3e they tried to get cute and have it as a character option once you got to the right level, but that leads to the prospect of some characters picking it and others not picking it and then what the hell is the GM supposed to do? Either the party becomes the de-facto ruling class of an area and now has adventures based on that, or they go on being a bunch of murder hobos and having a series of picaresque encounters until the players get bored. The Leadership feats were a bad idea and should be dismissed as such.

Quote:
I have to wonder why having more actual arms should be a minor character customization option separate from race at all.

The shape changing feats were really part of a "build your own fiend" theme in Tome of Fiends. Having people able to dumpster dive for them doesn't really seem to have worked out too well, so rewriting the Fiend classes to include them as an option seems like a better solution.

DenizenKane wrote:
Should there be feats for every level?

The nice thing about feat-per-level is that you get something customisable and meaningful for your character every time you go up a level. Levelling in 3e isn't something that happens all that often, so it's nice to have something like that to look forward to. Having simple level pre-reqs is the way to go I think. I can see Frank's point that a feat should be a self-contained option where possible, therefore some tweaking may be needed for feats that are above the curve. I still think it should be possible to use the Tome feat abilities list as a decent starting point.
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DenizenKane
NPC


Joined: 12 Dec 2016
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've been putting some work into this system here and there.
In my campaign, I will be using the Races of War combat rules, so many feats are based around that, and mention The Edge.

You gain 1 feat per level. You must pick a feat that is appropriate for that level, and each time you level you may retrain any of your previous feats to one of the same level.

Feats are separated into levels just like spells.

Level 1 feats are for levels one and two.
Level 2 feats are for levels three and four,
etc.

A level 7 character has: Two level 1 feats, Two level 2 feats, Two level 3 feats, and One level 4 feat.

I'm considering including Perfect TWF, Precise Shot, and Combat Reflexes as bonus feats. (or added to the combat system)

This is in no way complete or final, and any criticism at all is greatly appreciated.

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JonSetanta
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Why not group feats like Warlock invocations?

Every 5 levels.
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...You Lost Me
Duke


Joined: 10 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

We talked about that several comments ago

...You Lost Me wrote:
Why do we need tiers? Prerequisites can still exist. Wings of Evil has a level prereq, just like Breath Weapon and Harmless Form.

4 levels is the difference between stinking cloud and solid fog. What is level-appropriate at level 5 will be annoyingly weak at level 8. Unless you're concerned about players not being able to process a lot of feats, I don't think another set of memorized tiers is a good way to go about it.

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Red_Rob
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

These mainly look good, however some feedback on a few oddities:

Quote:
Energy Ray [Magic]
Benefit: Energy Ray (Su): Pick Fire, Electricity, Acid or Cold. You gain a ranged touch attack at medium range that deals 1d6/damage per level of that type. Pick one when you get the feat, and you canít change it.

Seems a little good for the price of 1 feat at a feat per level. Medium range is over 100 feet, and a touch attack means you will be better at hitting than a warrior at low levels.

Quote:
Healer [Skill] [Magic]
Benefit: +3 to all heal checks. You may use your heal checks to simulate the spell Cure Light Wounds with a DC 13 heal check.

Unlimited out of combat healing with no cost seems a bit much at level 1?

Quote:
Challenge [Combat]
Benefit: As a Swift Action, you may mark an opponent as your primary foe. This foe must be within medium range and be able to hear the your challenge. If the target creature inflicts any damage on you before your next turn, the attempt fails. Otherwise, any attacks you use against the opponent during her next turn inflict an extra d6 of damage per character level. This effect ends at the end of her next turn, or when she has struck her opponent a number of times equal to the number of attacks normally allotted her by her Base Attack Bonus.

Not sure if this is actually a problem, but giving out defining class features kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth?

Quote:
Critical Precision [Combat]
Double the threat range of all weapons you wield, and gain +4 to confirm criticals. You can crit and sneak attack things that normally could not be crit. (i.e. Undead, Constructs, etc.)

Giving all rogues the ability to sneak attack every target at level 3 seems a little too... easy. Feels like an auto pick for every sneak attack class which is a little lame.

Quote:
Educated [Skill]
Benefit: Gain +3 to knowledge checks, if you roll lower than a 10 on knowledge checks, take a 10 instead.

Any reason this isn't a level 1 feat?

Quote:
Rapid Shot [Combat]
Benefits: Improved Rapid Shot - Whenever you do a full round attack action, you may do one extra ranged attack at your highest BAB.
Whenever you make a ranged attack as a standard action, you may make two instead at your highest BAB.

Two shots as a standard action seems a little strong at level 3. Ranged combat already outshines melee somewhat and being able to retreat and fire two shots each round seems a bit much.

With feat retraining you can have feats that are simply better versions later on without worrying about players feeling like they wasted their earlier feats. So you could have regular Whirlwind as a level 1 feat for example.
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DenizenKane
NPC


Joined: 12 Dec 2016
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, I see what you're saying Rob. I'll work on revising this, and educated was supposed to be level 1 lol.

Hmm, back to the drawing board on some of these, and I'll be back later with a revised list.


Last edited by DenizenKane on Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:27 pm; edited 2 times in total
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DenizenKane
NPC


Joined: 12 Dec 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So, I'm trying to get my campaign on the road, and I wanted this system to be functional, but i can't seem to be satisfied with any of my feat designs.

I was hoping you guys had some insight.

Theres a few problems:

I'm finding it conceptually difficult to come up with feats that are not numeric bonuses.

I'm not sure whether "combat" feats should be a thing, or be class features.

I'm not sure whether "skill" feats should be a thing or just features of training your skills.

I'm not sure where to draw the line between class features and feats.

What started as what I thought was a simple project opened up a can of worms for me, and I can't seem to get a list i'm satisfied with.

Is there a tangible benefit to even having the system? And, what features of the game should be controlled by it?
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Wiseman
Duke


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

For feats that are less numbers and more effects, spells are a good place to start. There's no reason feats shouldn't grant magical abilities, and it go a long way towards making them more interesting and impactful.
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tussock
Prince


Joined: 07 Nov 2009
Posts: 2538
Location: Here

PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Basic D&D 3.0 design was.

  • Skills are for things you roll for, where they might succeed or fail, but aren't an attack roll or saving throw. The DCs are either fixed (so you can eventually win) or vary by opponent (so you can't).
  • Feats are for things that are always on, or can be prepared for single use, or are a modified or replaced attack roll or saving throw.
  • Class features are then for things that have charges per day that vary with level and stuff, plus your basic attack rolls and saving throws.

    Things too bullshit to be a feat got mashed up into Prestige Classes. Things too good to be a feat got prerequisites, usually some of the less-good feats, or a stat you don't want.


    So if your skill has a thing that comes online forever once you have 12 ranks, then that bit is a feat. If your feat is a d20+mods+level against a target number to succeed then it's a skill using ranks instead of level, unless it has charges in which case it's a class feature.

    And you just write up the abilities so they're functional and usable, and then back-form them into the skill system, or feat list, or class features, or basic rules if thumbs are enough, once they're finished.

    --

    3.5 said skills that only some classes get are actually class features that use level instead of ranks. That's a good idea, Rogues and Bards should have more of those too.

    3.5 and PF tried to crunch the skills down to a shorter list (though they still have a bad number, it should either be up to 9 skills or just bloat up and have 30+). Skills that do three obviously different things are just really annoying, most of those little things need to just be basic rules by virtue of thumbs, like with a level bonus.

    Feats got to be intolerable bullshit that did almost nothing in most cases (conditional feats are basically poison) and really should've been added as minor clarifications to things you can just do by virtue of thumbs. Prerequisites made pre-building too important, organic characters sucked. Feats that do three different things are also somewhat annoying, as it's nice when things have names all their own.

    Level-gating the feats into better sets at higher levels stops people feeling bad about selecting them later on. It also leaves your low-level choices constrained and thus enjoyable long after you've made them. Probably five sets rather than three, so you can sort them easier and choose less of them. Note that it's fine to just get to choose 1 feat from the top set, ever, to save you having to think up as many of them.

    --

    Exactly how much power you want in feats depends on if you have a class whose main deal is they get more feats. Like the 3e Fighter, that guy needs some balling feats, because +1/4 BAB and a few hit points is shit.

    How much power you want in skills with big bonuses depends on if you have a class whose main deal is they get more skills. The 3e Rogue gets more skills but also gets Sneak Attack, so not so much.

    Ditto for power in spells. As they're too hard to re-write, and there is a class that basically only gets spells and nothing else, it's not a bad point of comparison if you have a feat-only class. Feats however really shouldn't work like spells with uses and durations, but instead be always on or effectively at-will, even if they are Ironskin.
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    Kaelik
    ArchDemon of Rage


    Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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    PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Shape Soulmeld is a feat. It gives you a bunch of things, probably all of those are balanced as a single feat in feat per level system (with the shaping of a soulmeld part removed and just getting the benefit).

    Open Chakras are level gated feats, probbably everything you can get if you already had the soulmeld with an open chakra feat is fine once per level feat if you are high enough level.
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