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Ancient History
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:06 am    Post subject: Trump Thread Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The election is over. The time of Trump has begun.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/311774-trump-vows-to-negotiate-peace-between-israel-palestinians
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tussock
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There seems to be a general trend of him picking people who are massively antagonistic toward a certain bureau to now run it. Except for the authoritarian bits like the spies and the army, where he picks people who want them to do MOAR. Is that largely accurate?

Also, turns out Democrats hate Russia, and Republicans hate China instead. Is that a "we have always been at war with ...." moment or a proper tradition?
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Mechalich
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:51 am    Post subject: Re: Trump Thread Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ancient History wrote:

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/311774-trump-vows-to-negotiate-peace-between-israel-palestinians


This would be hilarious if it wasn't almost certain to involve many deaths and many more people consigned to crushing misery. I don't think Trump has any idea how to achieve peace between Israel and Palestine or even what that would entail.

I mean there's something like 700,000 people living in settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem now, and that number goes up constantly. It's quite possible that we're already past the point where any sort of land swap/relocation program had viability and the two sides aren't even talking about one at this point.

I suspect that, shortly after entering office, someone from the State Department will put a fairly standard (though very generous to Israel) peace plan project on Trump's desk, he'll look at it, assign some minion to carry it out, and then react with complete surprise when this totally fails to solve what is the ultimate Nintendo Hard foreign policy problem. Then he'll back-burner it and let Bibi do whatever he wants. Palestinians will suffer, there will another outbreak of terrorism, and the status quo there will continue its long death spiral.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Tussock wrote:
Also, turns out Democrats hate Russia, and Republicans hate China instead. Is that a "we have always been at war with ...." moment or a proper tradition?


How do you manage to be so completely wrong about absolutely everything?

China and Russia are rival foreign powers and both Republicans and Democrats are broadly opposed to those countries on numerous issues. Russia and China are also strategic and trading partners with huge spheres of influence and massive economies, so naturally both Republicans and Democrats are broadly willing to work with those countries on numerous other issues.

The Republicans in particular have just teamed up with Putin to help steal an American election, a crime so outrageous that if you'd put that event in a science fiction story two years ago it would have seemed extremely unbelievable. And yet, here we are. So right now there is a massive crime that Russia has committed that Democrats are predictably horrified by that Republicans are pretty much locked into supporting because otherwise they would literally be executed for literal treason.

But Trump is still threatening to have a nuclear arms race with Russia. Because of course he is.

-Frank
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SlyJohnny
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
The Republicans in particular have just teamed up with Putin to help steal an American election, a crime so outrageous that if you'd put that event in a science fiction story two years ago it would have seemed extremely unbelievable. And yet, here we are.


Christ. I wish you would read the shit that you type aloud before you post it.

There is probable cause to believe that Russia instigated the DNC hack that hurt the DNC's popular support, because it confirmed a lot of people's suspicion that the leadership of the DNC was supporting Hillary Clinton at the expense of her democratic opponent(s) while attempting to persuade everyone that they were neutral.

Separately, it's become clear that wikileaks and specifically Assange were pursuing an anti-Clinton agenda, even though they protest that they're an entirely neutral content disseminator. There is speculation that they've been infiltrated or otherwise coopted by Russia, but it's equally likely that they're just incompetent, useful idiots pursuing their own poorly conceived agenda.

That's it. Russia did not "steal" the election, and there's no evidence to suggest that republicans were involved in any conspiracy with them, at any level. Not even Trump.

You are undermining the legitimacy of the facts we have by making these reaching unsourced claims in the same breath as referencing the actual data.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

SlyJohnny, shut the fuck up forever about politics. Every single time you open your mouth, it is to say something horrible to try to normalize right wing fascism or spread "both sides do it" shade on non-scandals by liberals. Fuck off.

Yes the election is stolen. The rules were not followed, people had their votes canceled in key areas, and Hillary got the most votes anyway.

Yes, Russia influenced the election. This is fucking known. It is one of the many factors which made the election close enough to steal.

Yes, the Republicans assisted the Russians in their election influencing shenanigans. Donald Trump got on national television and plead with a rival foreign power to help influence the election by hacking his political opponents. That is a real thing that happened. Republicans directed people to hacked information and worked closely with Russian hackers to get unlawfully acquired bullshit spread disseminated as widely as possible. These are things that really happened.

To put this in perspective: after the latest set of Republican power grabs, North Carolina is not a democracy anymore.

Quote:
In the just released EIP report, North Carolina’s overall electoral integrity score of 58/100 for the 2016 election places us alongside authoritarian states and pseudo-democracies like Cuba, Indonesia and Sierra Leone.


This is a genuine fascist takeover that is supported by rival foreign powers. If you think this is "business as usual" you are severely mistaken. If you tell other people that this is in any way OK you are spreading fascist propaganda. Literally. Not hyperbole.

-Frank
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
Yes, Russia influenced the election. This is fucking known. It is one of the many factors which made the election close enough to steal.


Putin straight-up confessed to bragged about doing that. Were there a super-international court case about this, with Superman* as jury, I'm pretty sure that would be enough of an admission of guilt to have Putin placed in THE COSMIC ETERNITY PRISON and the election declared null and void. Whilst we still have spineless media agencies going "How did this happen? Why didn't Democrats vote like they totally said they would?" and "Democrats really fucked this one up!" and "HAIL LORD TRUMPERDINK, WE TOTALLY LOVE YOU PLEASE DON'T KILL US" and not addressing the elephant in the room, Putin is right there saying what he did to help make it happen.

*on the topic of bland Silver Age Mr. America heroes, at least Trump's election now explains Captain America's heel turn and villainy. "Why are you such a dick all of a sudden?" "Look at the people I represent."
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

SlyJohnny wrote:
because it confirmed a lot of people's suspicion that the leadership of the DNC was supporting Hillary Clinton at the expense of her democratic opponent(s) while attempting to persuade everyone that they were neutral.


Hey, do you have any evidence for this claim? I ask, because literally every single time a Right Wing Trump Supporter says this same dumb lie, I challenge them to provide literally any evidence for this at all, and then they fail miserably to do so.

Since you are basically the rightest wing trumpest supporter that has ever existed and you epitomize literally everything that is wrong with idiot right wing trump supporters with your constant being a wrong idiot trump supporter, I expect that just like every single other one, you will also fail to provide any evidence for your claim and will instead point to a bunch of low level people who are not leadership having personal preferences for one candidate but then NOT ACTING ON THEM, SOMETIMES EXPLICITLY BECAUSE THEIR LEADERS TELL THEM NOT TO as evidence that the leadership was cheating.

And you will of course, be wrong, just like you are literally 1000000000% of the time you open your mouth. You fucking racist sexist trump supporter who voted for trump and personally stood at the polls with a gun trying to intimidate black people into not voting.
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Trump Thread Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Mechalich wrote:
This would be hilarious if it wasn't almost certain to involve many deaths and many more people consigned to crushing misery. I don't think Trump has any idea how to


Copy and paste that for any number of subjects.

He said he wants a new nuclear arms race, and while he's not wrong that the F-35 has issues, asking Boeing for tweaked F-18s isn't an answer (especially this late in the day).

OTOH, I'm sorta hoping that he's saying as many really stupid things as possible so that he can put moderately stupid things into practice and have them seem less absurd.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Still, while he may have no knowledge of the issues in Israel/Palestine, Trump does have a better position from which to try getting a 'deal' than anyone else outside the country. NZ spent a fair bit of its time in its most recent stint on the UN security council trying to make progress and mostly miserably failing because we have no leverage on any side involved. The US's power isn't absolute but it's a start.

And with luck it could chew up a fair bit of Trump's time and energy in office.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
Putin straight-up confessed to bragged about doing that.

The "straight up" answer to that is, no he didn't, you idiot, why would you even say that, do you realise how illegitimate and discrediting it is to your argument, everyone who shares it and the future of the Democratic party.

And make no mistake. Reds under the bed blame the Russians for Hillary's failures total fucking crazy public psychotic MELTDOWN isn't just a cop out and a distraction, it is damaging to the democrats. THIS is their version of Obama's birth certificate. THIS will drive rational progressives away from the party even more. And until it stops you go nowhere.

And this thread is an example of that. You cannot properly talk about a likely Trump failure because you are obsessed with his secret muslim birth certificate bullshit wildly beaten up accusations about Russia stealing the election. (very poor wording there that whole "steal the election" thing, because even your non-specific implied "high confidence" anonymous vaguely CIA associated sources do NOT seem to be claiming Russia was hacking your actual election, but hey the whole thing is a dishonest beat up ANYWAY so why not go the further mile there I mean it wouldn't discredit you further and make you and the party look even more like crazed shit bags in front of the general public would it?)
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Orca wrote:
Still, while he may have no knowledge of the issues in Israel/Palestine, Trump does have a better position from which to try getting a 'deal' than anyone else outside the country. NZ spent a fair bit of its time in its most recent stint on the UN security council trying to make progress and mostly miserably failing because we have no leverage on any side involved. The US's power isn't absolute but it's a start.

And with luck it could chew up a fair bit of Trump's time and energy in office.


This shows an unwarranted optimism about Trump's work ethic and dedication. Let's see what happens when he finds out something is hard.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Yes, the Republicans assisted the Russians in their election influencing shenanigans. Donald Trump got on national television and plead with a rival foreign power to help influence the election by hacking his political opponents. That is a real thing that happened. Republicans directed people to hacked information and worked closely with Russian hackers to get unlawfully acquired bullshit spread disseminated as widely as possible. These are things that really happened.


Quote:

Putin straight-up confessed to bragged about doing that.


Do you have any link to this? I'm not doubting you, I'm trying to prove this to someone else, and I'd really like some concrete evidence.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

PhoneLobster wrote:
And this thread is an example of that. You cannot properly talk about a likely Trump failure because you are obsessed with his secret muslim birth certificate bullshit wildly beaten up accusations about Russia stealing the election. (very poor wording there that whole "steal the election" thing, because even your non-specific implied "high confidence" anonymous vaguely CIA associated sources do NOT seem to be claiming Russia was hacking your actual election, but hey the whole thing is a dishonest beat up ANYWAY so why not go the further mile there I mean it wouldn't discredit you further and make you and the party look even more like crazed shit bags in front of the general public would it?)


Hey PL, remember when you said that DNC emails were released to the public by by the FBI who had access to them because they were investigating Clinton's emails, because you wanted to continue with your baseless Trump cocksucking lies about how Russia wasn't involved but you were so ignorant and stupid that you thought Hillary Clinton's emails were released, and you thought they were the same thing as the DNC emails that were hacked, because you are an ignorant idiot with not even the faintest clue what the fuck you are talking about?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
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SlyJohnny
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Wiseman wrote:
Quote:
Yes, the Republicans assisted the Russians in their election influencing shenanigans. Donald Trump got on national television and plead with a rival foreign power to help influence the election by hacking his political opponents. That is a real thing that happened. Republicans directed people to hacked information and worked closely with Russian hackers to get unlawfully acquired bullshit spread disseminated as widely as possible. These are things that really happened.


Quote:

Putin straight-up confessed to bragged about doing that.


Do you have any link to this? I'm not doubting you, I'm trying to prove this to someone else, and I'd really like some concrete evidence.


http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/trump-putin-no-relationship-226282

Basically, Trump made some offhand sarcastic comment to the effect that if Russia really did hack the DNC, it'd be awesome if they could find the missing emails the FBI wanted for their investigation into Clinton that were "accidentally" destroyed/mysteriously lost. Frank and Kaelik believe that this constitutes Trump requesting that his ally hack his enemies, and further that this single quote from one individual is evidence of a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy to enlist Russia to subvert American democracy. This is because they are the kind of dumb assholes that like to accuse the media of corruption whenever their favourite baseless conspiracy theories don't get the airtime that they feel is deserved.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Can I get this from someone who isn't slyjhonny?
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's hard to say what Koumie even thinks she is talking about on Putin openly bragging about responsibility.

If I were to hazard a guess it would be somewhat obscure shit from back in September when Putin basically said "The release of this information was a good thing, it doesn't matter who released it, there is no way to know who hacked it, we definitely didn't do it".

Which is to say not a public admission or bragging of doing the deed in any way shape or form. But that's how this entire Russia bullshit remains. There is no evidence, no one, even anonymously, has even, as of yet, claimed they have evidence, they even specifically stated they do not have evidence, but Frank and Kaelik and friends choose to repeat anonymously leaked "beliefs" as hard proven fact. So OF COURSE it falls down when you ask "so er, can you provide some evidence?".

In the end basically if you aren't reading Glen Greenwald on this you are doing it wrong.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Don't be stupid, SlyJohnny. This bullshit doesn't actually require a vast right wing conspiracy. It just requires a presidential candidate stating the Russians should release whatever they've got on Hillary even though such invitations are at best an opportunistic and reckless act that has hurt the legitimacy of our elections. That's because Putin & co. don't refrain from interfering with other nations out of the goodness of their hearts, they refrain from interfering when it's more trouble than it's worth. Now, how exactly do you think that draconian calculus is affected by a potential fucking POTUS saying "Hell, I wouldn't even be mad." This selfish orange fucker is going to be the head of the fucking executive branch and he's already done about as good of a job of protecting our elections as OJ has done of finding the real killer. Fuck that guy.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Wiseman wrote:
Can I get this from someone who isn't slyjhonny?


Things that are true and happened in reality (as opposed to the imaginary land trumples like PL and SlyJohnny live in):

0) Russia hacked the state.gov emails in 2014, the Whitehouse system in 2015. Both cases were pushed out after they got some but not all info. They were definitely russians, and hey Russia has a history.

1) Trump owes a bunch of money to Russian banks. No one really knows how much, because he of course, refuses to fucking release his tax returns. But some amount that is a lot for us, and probably a lot for him, since it looks like he sold his stock in July just to free up cash flow to keep his businesses going.

2) Trump says various insane things about how Putin's a great guy and a friend of his, none of which seem to actually be true. Also crazy positions about how NATO members need to pay for themselves, and if Estonia can't win a land war with Russia on their own, then the US should leave NATO and let them be conquered.

3) Putin put out an explicit statement of how he totally hates Clinton and Russia can only make those sweet sweet mutually satisfactory deals with Trump.

4) The DNC emails were hacked by russian hackers that were definitely russian, the FBI saw that hack happening in somewhat real time and didn't do anything about it, but because they saw it happening, the CIA can trace it back to Russia no problem. We would later find out that they also hacked the RNC, but only DNC emails were released.

5) 17 intelligence agencies all agreed that it was totally the Russians that hacked the DNC as specifically part of their goal to influence the election. This despite that Comey and McConnell were working backrooms as hard as they could to prevent any of this from coming out.

6) Right before the election, voter rolls were hacked by russians in a couple states. They almost certainly didn't change anything, they may not have got much info.

7) There is no specific evidence that the russians hacked the election, but the only evidence they didn't is that the results roughly track exit polls and specifically WI didn't change with a hard recount. All the same, chances are pretty good actual election results weren't hacked.

8) After the election the CIA has gotten really angry about being stonewalled by the Reps who still won't let them investigate, so they leaked some specific claims, like that Putin specifically wanted to Trump to win (No duh, he fucking said so.) and that they have evidence that Putin was personally involved in directing the hacks and that the hacks also happened to the RNC, but none of that info was released, because Putin wants to save it for blackmail later.

9) Trump responded by appointing as SoS Trump's personal butt buddy who has sex with him every night and also is co owner of a corporation that exists for the express purpose of using Russian money in the US. Or US money to Russia? I can't remember off the top of my head. But seriously, look it up, I'm going to dinner.

10) Dump racist trump supporters like SlyJohnny and dumb idiots who want to pretend that Hitler was the good guy because he fought against the evil imperialist US like PL come up with really dumb lies about how Russia wasn't involved because the FBI leaked all of Hillary Clinton's emails since they had access and there was no hack, and that's why the DNC emails exist, (but we still don't have Clinton's emails).

11) Putin gave a little speech about how Democrats are just sore losers, and he, Putin is a winner, like Trump, and real winners don't make excuses. You could, if you are an idiot, believe that he was talking about all those totally fair elections Putin has won himself after murdering political rivals, but he was probably just specifically teasing the US by claiming to have beaten the Democrats by influencing the election.

12) Somewhere in there, Trump specifically asked Putin to please hack Clinton's emails, the ones we don't have, but the PL is sure the FBI released, because he's too stupid to know the difference between the DNC emails and Clinton's emails.
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SlyJohnny
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Whipstitch wrote:
Don't be stupid, SlyJohnny. This bullshit doesn't actually require a vast right wing conspiracy. It just requires a presidential candidate stating the Russians should release whatever they've got on Hillary even though such invitations are at best an opportunistic and reckless act that has hurt the legitimacy of our elections. That's because Putin & co. don't refrain from interfering with other nations out of the goodness of their hearts, they refrain from interfering when it's more trouble than it's worth. Now, how exactly do you think that draconian calculus is affected by a potential fucking POTUS saying "Hell, I wouldn't even be mad." This selfish orange fucker is going to be the head of the fucking executive branch and he's already done about as good of a job of protecting our elections as OJ has done of finding the real killer. Fuck that guy.


Yeah, noone's saying that Trump isn't an idiot, and we all agree the stupid shit that he says is distressing and damaging to the US national interests. I was addressing the idiots that are trying to make out that multiple republican officials are actively colluding with Russian agents, based solely on Trump's idiotic remarks.


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Maj
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This post from the cyber security firm, CrowdStrike, was published in June. It gives an overview of why Russia is accused. CrowdStrike is not the only security firm to come to this conclusion. This isn't all that was found. But it's a good start for us normals.

https://www.crowdstrike.com/blog/bears-midst-intrusion-democratic-national-committee/
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The most damning thing is that Trump's post-election behavior on this subject is exactly what you would expect from someone involved in a childish cover-up, and exactly not what you would expect from someone who was actually legitimate. Instead of taking action to distance himself from the appearance of Russian influence, he has put people known to be friendly to Russia in high positions. Instead of seeking to exonerate himself from collusion, he has denied the findings of the intelligence community. Instead of reassuring the public about the integrity of our elections, he has continued to undermine faith in them.
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Maj
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

All this time, and Russia can take over without a fight. And the stupid people who once opposed them at all costs, now worship them because they're not communists anymore.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Communists? Does the average American even know the difference between communism and social solidarity? Because from my experience they really don't.

That's where the whole issue starts. Instead of seeing the massive benefits in a nationally organized health insurance system, these people see someone stealing money from them. But these same people cheer when some rich asshole spends a largely irrellevant amount of money on charity (which is basically the same as spending it for commercials and pr).

If the Trump-voters weren't such a conglomerate of selfish and petty-minded hypocrites who swear to god that they'll love to dump abortion-proponents and people who take a kneel during the national anthem at a football game in the Atlantic, there would've never been the threat of a Trump-administration to begin with.

The only hope is that Trump is the kind of disaster these people need to wake up.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well a lot of the people who voted for him are the kinds of people generally fucked by Republicans - he rode a populist wave on the backs of lower and working class people, often without too much of an education or income. And now they're going to be standing there confused about why they suddenly have no money despite their hero getting in.

And then the news will tell them it's because of Democrats in congress and they'll accept that as fact, because it looks like intelligence and awareness are not learnable skills.
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