Let's Play - Duelmaster: Challenge of the Magi

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SlyJohnny
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Post by SlyJohnny »

I think he's talking about past duels between other challengers, not particularly commenting on the progress of yours?
Thaluikhain
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Ok, been a few days and it doesn't look like another game is happening, so I'll start answering questions and posting my own thoughts. Might take a while, as there is a lot to cover, and I'll have to hunt around the books to find things. I've no idea where the horn to summon the Deathknight, for example, I'll have to go looking. This also means there might be things I've missed.

Firstly, in regards to lesser magic. The necromancer spell 'Raise the Dead' can only be used in one place in the House of Mausolus, and creates a zombie. The book doesn't say anything about creating multiple zombies if a player has multiple 'Raise the Dead' spells, if they can do so in one go, or if they have to do one, Invoke the Portals to someone else and come back for another. If the player later goes to the cathedral, all their zombies go back to being dead, so maybe they can have more than one at a time, though that might unbalance things. Having to burn up WAITs going back and forth for each one might counter that though. If a player other than a necromancer investigates the bodies, a zombie attacks and does 2 LPs of damage before being destroyed.

Anyway SGamerz asked about 'Bless'. AFAIK, this can only be cast at that same place in the House of Mausolus. It insta-kills the zombie, and prevents necromancers from being able to use 'Raise the Dead' spells there anymore. Given that players won't normally know their opponent is a necromancer, this seems a waste of lesser magic slot, though you can be granted an extra bless spell at the cathedral, IIRC.

'Animal Kinship' is used when you meet Silvermane the wolf in the Caverns of Perdition. She then follows you around and gives you +2 in combat. SGamerz was on the right track about Illexmanan, if Silvermane is with you, she kills Illexmanan (again) before he can get his spell off.

In regards to Ambuscade and Dispel Trap, I like the idea of this, but the effect is the loss of 2 or 3 or 4 LPs, and maybe 1 extra WAIT. A Heal spell regains 4 LPs and you can use it any time except combat, so Dispel trap seems a poorer choice. Also, your opponent has to visit that land for Ambuscade to actually work. OTOH, again you can find those spells in the adventure, you don't have to use a lesser magic slot for them.

Teleport seems a very nice lesser magic. It occurred to me that this might be why the blue magics seem underpowered (Feeblemind reduces enemy CP, not LP, and Phantasm only reduces enemy LP by 3, and only 50% of the time), to balance out sorcerors having a nice lesser magic. By contrast, wizards have the not very useful Bless, but Holy Fires of Judgement reduces enemy LPs by 5 and CPs by 2, much better than Phantasm. Getting the Diadem of Rulership is easier than getting the Sacred Relics as well.

I could be reading too much into it, and the same spells having different effects in different places makes it hard to tell, but that might be an attempt at balance, despite it looking unbalanced at first glance.

Green magic seems rather over-powered. As well as the thing with Tanglevines (and if you don't insta-kill your opponent you can stab them for 6 LPs, which is a lot), Creeping Doom having a persistent effect of doubling CP costs for spell is quite nasty.

As an aside, I think I may have been doing combat wrong. From my reading, bonus to dice rolls (such as the +1 for a zombie or a shield) would count to rolls to seem who hit and rolls for damage, but the section where you can fight Helm who has 32LPs, and he gives you a McGuffin if you last 5 rounds implies you can't kill him in 5 rounds, which would imply that bonuses don't apply to damage. Or they overlooked that possibility.
Thaluikhain
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Ok, random other things:

The Key to Limbo. Firstly, after you pick the right choice out of three, you have to pick the right choice out of two in the next section. Having go the book, you go back to the beast who doesn't remember where you find Limbo, which is helpful. It's the door outside the Rainbow Inn, the only locked door you come across, IIRC. The first time you go in, you are fully healed and can go to any land. The second time you get all your CPs back and can go to any land. It's worded a bit vaguely, you might be able to use it a third time and get your CPs back and go to any land again.

In the Rainbow Inn, if you talk to the barman, you can either buy food with magic blue pepper that heals 3 LPs, or ask for help in the Duel. If you can tell him the 3 correct names of the demons, he will give you the Robe of Many Colours and tell you to go the "high place where opposites meet" which is the Tower of Immutable Paradox. If you have the Robe and sit on the throne (which is the Seat of All-Seeing Wonder), you can see the entire Rainbow Land and where your opponent is. It's basically the same as the Orb of All-Seeing Wonder except it's not portable. You get the Orb in a Land just next to the Tower, mind.

At the Shrine of the Martyrs, a druid or wizard can pray to regain 3 CPs and a spell they had lost if they were cursed. The only way they can be so cursed, IIRC, is by the really bleak bit about getting the Diadem of Rulership by burning the dryad to death.

If you tell the Black Knight you want revenge on the person who killed your mum, he gets angry, says he's no assassin to go round chasing people, and will only kill your opponent for you if you get him to come to the Inn first and the conversation ends. There's no way to get him to do this if your opponent does come to the Inn.

You don't need Animal Kinship to steal his horse, you need to be able to kill him when he attacks you for trying to steal his horse. You get to keep the horse if you win, though.


There's a few places where if you or your opponent have visited before, there's something new to see. If you steal Manlius' armour, for example, or a mage's scrolls in the Garden of Contemplation, you find someone angry there later. If you go back afterwards to the city where the Ring of Summoning was being auctioned, you get robbed of an item of your choice. Sometimes it's something good, like the bag of gold the druids leave in their stone circle after their ritual. Or the phoenix curing you of Origob's curse the second time someone visits its nest. After you get the Eye of Flame ruby, if someone goes back to the crystal caves, they get a shard of crystal that can use to summon a crystal warrior to fight for them (the player stands around and does nothing until that fight is resolved).

After you (or your opponent) falls in the water and find part of the Rod of Summoning, if you come back later you can get the Jug of Water, which counters the Fireskin counter to Creeping Doom. A pyromancer can use Spirit of Flame to destroy the item and thus get an objective point.

The Crystal that Illexmanan had was the counter to Absorption, the counter to Feeblemind, though that one will be drained after one use, and only recharges if you roll a 6. You roll once dice for his every new paragraph, not sure if they mean numbers sections there because some sections have many paragraphs in them.

The other counterspell blocking things were the Bag of Wind you get from the Djinn in the Oasis and the Book of Unholy Words. Also, the magic flaming sword in the cave, however that only counters Mouth of the Void, the counter to Holy Word if you are a wizard.
Last edited by Thaluikhain on Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mr Shine
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Post by Mr Shine »

Cheers, Thaluikhain, very thorough summary and thanks for the effort you've put into this game.
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Post by Mr Shine »

A couple more questions that brings up:

Does the Jug of Water also double as a jug of water, for scenes where you need to have some?

Also, thinking about your water bottle, I'm guessing the fountain in the Garden was a source, is that right? the Rainbow Inn was one, were there any other water points?

Does the magician have any way to keep restoring LP indefinitely? All 5 main classes can use their sanctum, necromancers(and pyromancers?) can use the Altar of Darkness too. Magicians are SOL in a war of attrition?
Last edited by Mr Shine on Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Thaluikhain
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Mr Shine wrote:Does the Jug of Water also double as a jug of water, for scenes where you need to have some?
No..it logically should do, I guess, but doesn't.
Mr Shine wrote:Also, thinking about your water bottle, I'm guessing the fountain in the Garden was a source, is that right? the Rainbow Inn was one, were there any other water points?
Again, logically you should be able to fill up at the fountain, or at various other waterfalls and streams, but no. If you go to the village at the Shrine of Mausolus, the one you meet Sargash en route to, you can refill there.

Also, if you go to the hills in the Scorched Sands, you drink all your water, and then reach a dervish camp. Their leader wants to sell the Silver Scimitar. If you buy it for one bag of gold, or if you or your opponent already has, the locals are friendly and you can refill your water bottle. If not, you get staked out in the desert for a bit.

I don't know of any other places you can fill your bottle.
Mr Shine wrote:Does the magician have any way to keep restoring LP indefinitely? All 5 main classes can use their sanctum, necromancers(and pyromancers?) can use the Altar of Darkness too. Magicians are SOL in a war of attrition?
There is no other way I know of which would work indefinitely, you can buy healing in the Rainbow Inn, but apart from that, not really.

The "friend" in the Rainbow Inn gives magicians a scroll with counters to the black, white and green insta-kill spells that don't cost any CP.
Last edited by Thaluikhain on Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Savi P
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Any new game of it any time soon?

Post by Savi P »

Would love to play it......
Thaluikhain
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Do we have another player?

As mentioned in the OP, it can be played with one player, it's just that the mechanics for doing so are pretty bad, though not sure how they could have done much better given what they were trying to do.
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SlyJohnny
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Post by SlyJohnny »

This is the kind of thread necros we like!

I've already played a bunch, so would have an advantage, but I'd be down.
Thaluikhain
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Ok, so that's two players. While the books were intended for only two, I don't see why it couldn't be done with more with slight tweaking of the rules (excepting a long wait to finish a duel that not everyone is involved in), if anyone else was interested.
SlyJohnny wrote:I've already played a bunch, so would have an advantage, but I'd be down.
Yeah, that might be a problem. Especially as balance problems become evident once you understand the mechanics better. Not sure there aren't attempts to balance things out, giving good lesser magics to mages with bad greater magics and so on, though, but I think being dropped in the deep end is the bigger part of that.

Perhaps a handicap? New player knows the older players class or maybe entire spell list, either before or after choosing their own. Or possibly starting at level 2 or higher. Or some combination.

Or forgetting about all that and running as is (well, with some mechanics keep obscure. When you ask your opponent for a codeword, if they have it and remember where they got it, they know where you are, which wasn't the intent. Also, there's some "If you are Class X, then Y" stuff I'd skip for people who aren't Class X, but if you were using the books you'd know that something happened to Class X).

One thing I'd be changing is my interpretation of Physical Combat, originally I'd been applying bonuses both to rolls to hit and rolls for damage, but in retrospect it seems to intended just for rolls to hit.
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SlyJohnny
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Post by SlyJohnny »

I'd be up for handicaps or mass tournament style. Tournament could be pleasingly chaotic, with people bumping into each other... Would you loot all their stuff if you killed someone?
Thaluikhain
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Post by Thaluikhain »

SlyJohnny wrote:Would you loot all their stuff if you killed someone?
I was thinking yes, in that otherwise a player could be half-dead after killing one mage and then run into another mage who is mostly full health.

Though, the description of some instakill spells sounds like they'd ruin the targets stuff as well.
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Post by SGamerz »

If you're opening this for more than 2 players at a time, I'd certainly be interested to join as well.

What would you do in the event of all 3 (or more) players entering the same zone, though?

Or in the case of locations that auto-transport both players into a duel when triggered, would ALL players be summoned, or just 2?
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Post by Thaluikhain »

SGamerz wrote:What would you do in the event of all 3 (or more) players entering the same zone, though?

Or in the case of locations that auto-transport both players into a duel when triggered, would ALL players be summoned, or just 2?
I'd not considered that as it seems rather unlikely. But not impossible, so I'll have to come up with an answer, though. A three way fight would probably still work, roll to see who goes in which order and attack or cast spells at which opponent you like. I like the idea of being able to use counterspells at spells not aimed at you (also rolling to see in which order players can decide to cast, or not cast counterspells, I guess), and if you flee a combat with two opponents, the next player to act can get in their free hit at you as their action, or let you get away and act against their remaining opponent/s.

Actually, there's one point that would work better that way, you can get a monster to fight for you in a combat you're also involved in in one section of the gamebook. It's just not explained how that is supposed to work, I think your opponent fights it in HtH combat and then you fight them afterwards if it dies. Running it as a three person fight (with 2 on the same side) would work better, albeit making the monster more powerful. Most other creatures that accompany you just give you a bonus to your rolls, though there is a mercenary you can hire that you can also fight, so they have stats themselves. I'd actually like to run the mercenary like that as a participant in 3 ways fights. Other creatures I'd either have to leave just as bonuses to rolls (which seems unsatisfying, a weakness in the original mechanics), or invent stats for them.

All of which actually looks pretty cool, just rather unlikely to be needed, as the odds of 3 players running into each other aren't great, and getting a companion other than a bonus to rolls is rare.

Also not sure if two people run into each other if they would automatically have to fight. Makes sense in the gamebook where there's just two players, but if you've got multiple people, you might want to avoid some conflicts, of even make alliances.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Upon further thought, I do like the idea of giving companion creatures stats. And running 2 on 1 fights with NPCs Fighting Fantasy style, monsters would attack players normally, and your companion and the monster roll as well, but if the monster wins it just doesn't attack you. I was thinking that if players both with companions fought each other, they'd pair off as best they could (with attacker decided the pairings) and fight each other. In 3 way player combats, a player with companion monsters who went for HtH attacks could decide which player they and their monsters attack (doesn't have to be the same one).

All of that is a big deviation from the established rules, though, so I'm fine with not doing any of that if people don't like it.

There's a few other things I'd change that I think are true to the intent of the game. There's a number of items you can pick up where you get a codeword when you do, and if you or your opponent visit the same spot, the codeword is checked and there's nothing there if someone has it. Fair enough. But there's other places where you can pick up an item as long as you haven't been there before and already got it, meaning if your opponent visits there later, they can get the same thing, which I presume wasn't intended. And then there's other places where it doesn't even do that, and you (and/or your opponent) can go back and forth stealing a person's one gold ring as many times as you like, which seems wrong. I'd plan to only allow picking up items like that once, by one player.

It's not said either way if a pyromancer can have two or more Fire Imp Familiar spells and use them both in the same combat, or if a necromancer can have more than one Raise the Dead spell and get more than one zombie. I think the writers just didn't consider someone wanting to do this. I'm leaning towards allowing those.

There's another spell I'd like to tweak, but I can't really say without it being a spoiler. In the rules as written, it has a useful effect under one circumstance that I could see happening under very similar circumstances, but there's no mention in the rules.

I'd also like players to be able to fill their water bottles at any decent water source, for some reason there's only a few you can do that at.

Again, those are changing the original book somewhat (some more than others), so if people weren't keen on them, or all of them, I'm fine with that.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

In case this thread has been forgotten, I'm still up for running a game for 2 or more players, using tweaked rules or mostly as is if people prefer.
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SlyJohnny
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Post by SlyJohnny »

I'm down for whatever
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Post by SGamerz »

So am I. Although if no 3rd player joins then it looks like it might be a retread with the same players.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Ok, so Savi P hasn't posted in almost a month, so it looks like they won't be playing. Was hoping for at least 3 players to make it different from the 2 player games we've had before, but still would run a game without a third if that's all there is.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Ok, starting new game now. Assigning Mage A to SlyJohnny and Mage B to SGamerz, both normal level 1 mages. Will be using somewhat modified rules, but as the situations requiring them are unlikely to come up, mostly that's me being a bit finnicky.
Last edited by Thaluikhain on Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
SGamerz
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Post by SGamerz »

Oops, sorry, I forgot to check this thread. I will create my mage over this weekend, if SlyJohnny is still in.
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Re: Let's Play - Duelmaster: Challenge of the Magi

Post by Thaluikhain »

Ok, so it occurred to me that I could use ChatGPT to play a FF book, giving it the text and options and was interested in seeing what choices it'd make. That would involve a lot of typing, but I'd already typed out most of the Challenge of the Magi, and so could use that. It also occurred that I could run multiple chats in ChatGPT and thus have a big, multiple computer player version, with one for each of the types of mage.

Before doing that I thought I'd ask if any humans here wanted to play as well. Some revision of the rules, though I don't think much, would be needed to get things to work.
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