Top ten races players want to play

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Post by Chamomile »

Koumei wrote:That kind of flies in the face of the "Everything that was a previous option should still be an option" statement.
If a game has Human stats and Elf stats, and you want to play a half-Human/half-Elf, you can just pick either the Human stats or the Elf stats. People will only accept so many races before they get bored of looking through them all, and I'm down with removing half-[whatever]s to make room for actually different things.
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Post by Mask_De_H »

Secondly, at no time should a PHB race be half anything.
That kind of flies in the face of the "Everything that was a previous option should still be an option" statement. I mean, picking between the two I think "Not having stats for half-X" (optionally going as far as "They're different species, you can't be a half-X unless the other half is also X, but you could be a Y adopted and raised by X") is more important than "People have had half-X characters since before the Berlin wall came down, we're not taking that away from them now". But they are both conflicting positions, and to fully take one you need to soften the other.
Not really. Your halfbreeds just get to claim either mechanical dual citizenship of their constituent parts or are made to choose one race mechanically.
And that will obviously mean you are super-double-wrong for ever about everything. Like, it's proof.
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Last edited by Mask_De_H on Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Chamomile wrote:
Koumei wrote:That kind of flies in the face of the "Everything that was a previous option should still be an option" statement.
If a game has Human stats and Elf stats, and you want to play a half-Human/half-Elf, you can just pick either the Human stats or the Elf stats. People will only accept so many races before they get bored of looking through them all, and I'm down with removing half-[whatever]s to make room for actually different things.
For so many reasons; there needs never be a half-[anything].

Even Tolkien; the person who kickstarted the concept in modern fantasy literature... didn't have creatures have new powersets; instead they were either one, or the other. Elrond is half-elf, but becomes an Elf; Aragorn is a long-lived descendent of a half-elf, but is merely a long-lived man. The Uruk-Hai are still orcs, even if they have elite array stats & are Fearless.
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Post by Pixels »

On top of what JE said, I want to note that Elrond and Elros (Elrond's brother who is Aragorn's ancestor) were literally given the in-universe choice between elven and human racial traits. In other words, exactly what Chamomile described.
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Post by Occluded Sun »

Except they didn't choose 'stats', they choose ultimate fates. Elrond's attributes didn't change any more than Arwen's did when they made their choices. It was whether they would be immortal within the world, or die and leave the world. They didn't get any smarter or dumber, stronger or weaker, etc.
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Post by virgil »

Occluded Sun wrote:Except they didn't choose 'stats', they choose ultimate fates. Elrond's attributes didn't change any more than Arwen's did when they made their choices. It was whether they would be immortal within the world, or die and leave the world. They didn't get any smarter or dumber, stronger or weaker, etc.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Pixels wrote:On top of what JE said, I want to note that Elrond and Elros (Elrond's brother who is Aragorn's ancestor) were literally given the in-universe choice between elven and human racial traits. In other words, exactly what Chamomile described.
I was somewhat sure about this; but I couldn't recall how it happened precisely enough to mention.
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Post by maglag »

Judging__Eagle wrote:
Chamomile wrote:
Koumei wrote:That kind of flies in the face of the "Everything that was a previous option should still be an option" statement.
If a game has Human stats and Elf stats, and you want to play a half-Human/half-Elf, you can just pick either the Human stats or the Elf stats. People will only accept so many races before they get bored of looking through them all, and I'm down with removing half-[whatever]s to make room for actually different things.
For so many reasons; there needs never be a half-[anything].

Even Tolkien; the person who kickstarted the concept in modern fantasy literature... didn't have creatures have new powersets; instead they were either one, or the other. Elrond is half-elf, but becomes an Elf; Aragorn is a long-lived descendent of a half-elf, but is merely a long-lived man. The Uruk-Hai are still orcs, even if they have elite array stats & are Fearless.
Uruk-Hai are not fearless (they eventually break and run for it at the end of the second book's siege).

Uruk-Hai however take no penalty from sunlight, in contrast to regular orcs.

It's kinda the whole point why Sauruman bred them in the first place. Brute strength of orcs with the ability to march and fight in broad daylight like regular humies.

That's something that survived quite a bit of time in D&D. Regular orcs take penalties under sunlight, half-orcs do not.
Last edited by maglag on Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Aryxbez »

Personally, I definitely want a Birdman, Lizardman (dragon-kin), Plantmen, Bugmen, Construct/Robot, Giant, Beastmen/Furry Races, Midget Race (Goblins or Dwarves I personally enjoy), Dwarves, and I "guess" Skeleton Man for mediocrity.

Otherwise, I would definitely say people Want: Furry-Races (Catgirls especially), dragonmen, Plantmen, Bugmen, Elf (to be pretty), Human (REALIZARM self insert), Robots, Midget-race, something contrasting and monstrous (why Orcs or Big buff beastmen work well), and then I guess Vampires?
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Post by Username17 »

The rabbit hole of furry races goes really fucking deep. There are lots of people who have an animal totem that they would like to go play, but there is no unity of purpose to be found there. The Second Life Marketplace has over four thousand furry avatars for sale. Even "popular" ones are not a significant share of the market. You are never ever ever going to be able to get reasonably complete coverage on furry races. Even explicitly furry games like TMNT and Jade Claw don't manage to cover all the furry shit people want to play. TMNT lets you play an awakened Toucan or Muskrat and it still doesn't cover everything people want to be. I mean sure, you have horse furries, but what about zebra furries? You maybe have elk men, but what about moose men? Did you think about that?

There are a certain number of players who would like to play "something bestial" and for them a single race like Gnoll or Dragonborn is probably sufficient. For the people who have specific animal concepts, there is no possible way to cater to everyone even if you fill your entire RPG book with nothing but attempts to do so. People have fucking tried.

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Post by shlominus »

plantmen are popular somewhere? :confused:
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Post by PhoneLobster »

FrankTrollman wrote:There are a certain number of players who would like to play "something bestial" and for them a single race like Gnoll or Dragonborn
Yeah see now I know it shits in your neck beard cornflakes to admit it but if you put one playable furry race in your limited bullshit traditional race list of 10 or less.

It isn't fucking Gnoll (relatively) no one likes gnolls. Even with imperfect coverage with an imperfect bullshit limited race mechanic is better done efficiently so of fucking course it's cat people. Or at least pretend to try and make it proper brand name Wolf people.
FrankTrollman wrote:You are never ever ever going to be able to get reasonably complete coverage on furry races.
Well yeah of course, if your starting premise is to needlessly use a stupid methodology that requires writing each and every race by hand as an inflexible unique mechanic OF COURSE it breaks the moment you try to use such a stupid method to satisfy the vast permutations of what actual people actually want. And that doesn't limit itself to furry permutation, same fucking goes for ANY broad field including Elves and Dwarves.

But if you have a flexible system that allows the generation of custom "races" from a range of individual mechanical components you have designed an actual fucking permutation generator. Every bit of content you insert into it at a game mechanical level produces vast multiples of potential permutations that can be generated and used in setting and in play.

It's just you ruled out the highly productive and beneficial solution because of implausible crazy man reasons that don't hold up to even basic scrutiny.
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

PhoneLobster wrote:Well yeah of course, if your starting premise is to needlessly use a stupid methodology that requires writing each and every race by hand as an inflexible unique mechanic OF COURSE it breaks the moment you try to use such a stupid method to satisfy the vast permutations of what actual people actually want. And that doesn't limit itself to furry permutation, same fucking goes for ANY broad field including Elves and Dwarves.
There was a time when point-based universal systems were respectable. There was a time when people thought was the future of role playing and that giving people an essentially blank canvas was the way forward for adventure RPGs. That time was "the eighties," and the movement pretty much crashed and burned when people were wearing parachute pants and sporting mullets unironically.

Now, I'm going to offer some of my opinions as to why your movement was dead and buried twenty years ago, but before we get into that we all have to acknowledge that it's simply factually true that it did. The bums lost, PhoneLobster. The. Bums. Lost.

Now, in my opinion, the reason why universalism failed is that it simply can't deliver. You can't sincerely tell people that they can play anything, because one of the most important things people want to play is a member of a recognizable in-setting group. And if you're doing some GURPS thing where every character is a hand crafted Steve, that is something you can't deliver. If everything is bought with points off some big master chart, then you convey no information by saying that you are an Elf. By allowing players to play "any kind of Elf they want" you've actually taken away the ability to play the only kind of Elf people actually want to play - the kind of Elf that provokes specific responses in the other players at the table.

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Post by Jason »

PhoneLobster wrote:But if you have a flexible system that allows the generation of custom "races" from a range of individual mechanical components you have designed an actual fucking permutation generator. Every bit of content you insert into it at a game mechanical level produces vast multiples of potential permutations that can be generated and used in setting and in play.
While that may work as a development tool (and it would certainly help to balance the races in your setting), it's a clusterfuck waiting to happen as far as actual play is concerned. Players want a relatable concept (and no, I certainly don't consider you to be a player, as you are far too concerned about the development side of things; you are too detached from actual play). They want a guiuldeline for their character. Yes, that guideline is often a movie or a book character, but especially for beginners, having clear roles and behaviours is essential. They need to know, what an "elf" is. What and "elf" does and how the world reacts to an "elf". To them, being able to create their own special kind of elf takes a major backseat. More than that, it is actually detrimental to them, as they now have to make everything up themselves. While you might find that fun, most of them, won't, they will feel lost and drifting. Even in games with nothing but humans to play, you will have Cultures, fulfilling the very same function as races in traditional fantasy rpgs, because that's what races are to most players, essentially: cultures. The whole "but I want an even more special snowflake" hysteria is mostly tied to players that have played rpgs for a long time and were neveretheless unable to satisfy their itch to be special. Basically, the Tumblr crowd of roleplayers.

The question, however, was not how to please the Tumblr crowd, but what races would players like to have in an RPG in general and seeing as a) most players are rather unimaginative and b) new players need guidlines, the idea of a "make your own race" system is absolutely idiotic in a base rulebook. In a supplement, sure, have at it, hoss, but not in a core rulebook.
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Post by nockermensch »

FrankTrollman wrote:Now, in my opinion, the reason why universalism failed is that it simply can't deliver. You can't sincerely tell people that they can play anything, because one of the most important things people want to play is a member of a recognizable in-setting group.
adorable_little_girl_saying_why_not_both.gif

What's exactly keeping people from coming with flavorful 500 word essays describing life and society in zootopia, elftown, or dwarf fortresses and then coming with tables to customize special snowflake furries, elves or dwarves? (ideally, the table only becomes useful if the player is not satisfied with the 2 or 3 presets presented for each race).

Some elves talk with animals, other elves do short range teleports. Some of them are actually immortal, while others are merely long-lived. "Elves" still can have a meaningful society that people want to be a part of.

Also, as an aside, it's not even hard to come with an in universe reason of why in D&D land you have furry societies full of different animal races working together as if they lived on the cringe part of Deviantart Deviantart. One of the main outsider races are the Guardinals, who already look exactly like that.

So if you want to do that with your game (please refer to my avatar), just add the guardinal equivalent of tieflings to the game, let the degenerates customize their sonic recolors picking choices from a large table and be done with it.
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Post by Mask_De_H »

I know responding to PL is pissing into an ocean of piss, but Gnolls were real fucking popular on /tg/ once upon a time.

The females of the species having large pseudopenises had something to do with it, along with kind of looking feline/canine if you squinted. If it has a fluffy tail and pointy triangular ears, the people who would dip a toe in the furry pool will potentially bite.
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K wrote:That being said, the usefulness of airships for society is still transporting cargo because it's an option that doesn't require a powerful wizard to show up for work on time instead of blowing the day in his harem of extraplanar sex demons/angels.
Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
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Post by Omegonthesane »

nockermensch wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Now, in my opinion, the reason why universalism failed is that it simply can't deliver. You can't sincerely tell people that they can play anything, because one of the most important things people want to play is a member of a recognizable in-setting group.
adorable_little_girl_saying_why_not_both.gif

What's exactly keeping people from coming with flavorful 500 word essays describing life and society in zootopia, elftown, or dwarf fortresses and then coming with tables to customize special snowflake furries, elves or dwarves? (ideally, the table only becomes useful if the player is not satisfied with the 2 or 3 presets presented for each race).
One, many people are too lazy to come up with 100 word essays with flavour they think is delicious and everyone else thinks is more bland and overdone than cornflakes.

Two, more to the point, you really want the interweb users of a given game to be working from the same 500 word essay for each race in the interest of cohesion. The less time players have to spend getting on the same page the better.
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Post by Wiseman »

Like my planetouched, why not just make a sort of build your own furry race? Call them beastfolk or something and have a list of traits that they can pick from?
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Post by Jason »

Wiseman wrote:Like my planetouched, why not just make a sort of build your own furry race? Call them beastfolk or something and have a list of traits that they can pick from?
How do you make sure they still follow the same relative culture? Why are herbivores getting along with carnivores? What are the consequences of them living together, what differentiates their culture from, say, elevn culture and why? What is their distinctive trait other than "has pointy ears and a tail"?

I'm not saying it can't be done, I am questioning, however, if it should be done outside of an optional supplementary rule.
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Post by Chamomile »

Mask_De_H wrote:I know responding to PL is pissing into an ocean of piss, but Gnolls were real fucking popular on /tg/ once upon a time.
Gnollvember is still a thing on /tg/.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

In the game we've been developing, we have a race that is essentially a generic 'beastman' race and players can choose a couple of abilties from a short list. One of the 'choose your own' abilities is 'animal affinity' with the animal creature you resemble. The others aren't species specific. Choosing whether you look like a fox, a cat, or a rabbit doesn't really matter. We'd expect 'wolf' characters to choose the bite attack and 'cat' characters to probably choose the claw attack, but it's pretty much okay if they don't.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

nockermensch wrote:why_not_both
Because that would undermine Frank's insane and absolutist position where he declares points based RPGs dead and buried because he is frankly an idiot living in a fantasy land where his personal ideas dominate the hobby (pro tip, they don't) and that makes his shittiest claims correct (pro tip, it doesn't).

The reality is you of course can do both. In fact you should do both.

That goes for systems that intend primarily to offer the customizable "race" generator as the main option they want players to use, which should also come with some expected popular pregenerated choices to save time and effort (and represent some sort of sample material or setting specific material).

AND it goes for systems that intend primarily to offer a small list of inflexible "race" options. Because at some level that methodology had fucking better have some balancing mechanics or at least some damn strong fucking guidelines behind what the game designer was allowed to make those "inflexible" options out of. And even if you don't expose those rules to the actual end users of the game (presumably because you are a dick, or because it turns out your internal rules for race design were actually too totally ass to show in public) they had better have fucking been there.
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Post by Username17 »

PL wrote:AND it goes for systems that intend primarily to offer a small list of inflexible "race" options. Because at some level that methodology had fucking better have some balancing mechanics or at least some damn strong fucking guidelines behind what the game designer was allowed to make those "inflexible" options out of.
:rofl:

It's like you slept through the nineties. The entire nineties. Holy shit.

Look, the designer isn't "allowed" to make anything. And if you give designers some bullshit point system to work with the results still aren't going to be any more or less balanced than if you don't because point systems are bullshit. The designer makes things and then eyeballs and/or tests those things against other options.

It's entirely possible for one thing to give you a lot "more" and still be less good because abilities in a package you don't actually use aren't worth anything. Any "Column A" character creation choice is going to only see play along with some "Column B" choice as well. You don't play "an Elf" you play "an Elf Rogue" or "an Elf Wizard." And because of that, the total package could be more or less useful than something that in some arbitrary sense gets more or less than it depending on how those things stack up together.

A point system that tells you that getting +2 to Int, Charisma, Wisdom, and Strength is worth more than getting +2 to Intelligence alongside some ability that Wizards actually want is probably wrong because Wizards don't actually care much about any of those stats except Intelligence. And it's going to be very difficult to design a point system that won't tell you that.

Pathfinder made a race design system. It was shit. And it wasn't just shit because the people who made it were a bunch of chucklefucks. It was also shit because such systems are virtually guaranteed to be useless garbage no matter how they are designed. GURPS and Fantasy Hero made a bunch of race packages that cost various amounts of points. Those were shit too, even though the math that went into them was way more sophisticated. They were shit because you don't actually get useful information looking at game elements with that kind of reductionist microscope. The emergent synergies that come out of race/class interactions are far more important than the racial abilities in a void, because no one actually plays the fucking game in a context where those emergent properties don't exist.

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Post by PhoneLobster »

Frank now declares of course there aren't ANY rules or balancing methodologies being used when he designs races for his limited lists because balance is impossible because synergy exists. Thus, by not having rules for balancing the races he creates that he in turn won't expose to his players... balance becomes possible... somehow... despite synergy still existing.

Excuse me if I continue to go on as if Frank has failed to EVER put an in good faith argument forward on this topic. Or even one that survives five seconds of basic fucking scrutiny. Seriously do you even read over your posts once before posting them, even YOU didn't find alarm bells wringing looking at your own "argument" there? Really?
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Post by MGuy »

Wiseman wrote:Like my planetouched, why not just make a sort of build your own furry race? Call them beastfolk or something and have a list of traits that they can pick from?
Did this in my game. On one hand you can make it so players can get something that represents any beast they might want if you squint your eyes enough. On the other hand whatever they make has no backstory and no solid place in the world up until it is made. If you care about the first and not about the second it works. If you care about the second you'd have to do some pretty weird things to get it so that there aren't that many variances between your beast people such that you have to write out 1000 of them which might fuck with the former bit. In my own anecdotal experience no player actually cares about the second. I would also like to note I also am not writing something for mass consumption so... that.
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