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Liberal Civility vs. Freaking the Fuck Out
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Shatner
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 3:43 pm    Post subject: Liberal Civility vs. Freaking the Fuck Out Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If Clinton had eked out the win, there'd be outrage and violence and twitter wars and cries about rigged elections. There'd be shrill individuals crying about how afraid they were for themselves, their loved ones, and the future of this country under the upcoming regime. And we, the victorious progressives, would roll our eyes and say things about accepting one's loss with dignity and how the peaceful transition of power is the cornerstone of our democracy. That's what happened each time Obama won an election, after all, with the added parallel of Republicans being hilariously flabbergasted by the results. Well, now the reverse has happened and there are some very visible folks on the Left saying that we need to calm down and give Trump a chance. We should, they add, resist his administration to our fullest ability, but only after they actually do wrong, rather than simply be the winners we didn't want.

I don't want to be a hypocrite. By the fucked up rules of the fucked up game we agreed to play, Trump won. It's not even as contentious as it was back in 2000. I mean, I fantasize about faithless electors or the discovery of election fraud in some key states hitting some sort of November 8th reset button, but those seem like remote possibilities at best. HOWEVER, I really am fearful for the country and the world in the wake of a Trump presidency. I really do feel like a less capable, more odious, more corrosive presidential candidate than Trump would be difficult to find, and his election feels like some cruel cosmic joke. And it really does feel like we've witnessed an election undermined so much, you might even call it "rigged".

I want to see people losing their shit. I want the misdeeds and dirty politics that have steeped this election swiftly and decisively punished in the wake of a grand outpouring from the outraged majority. I want justification and vindication. And I know that this is pretty much the find-and-replace equivalent of what some angry right-winger would be saying during Thanksgiving dinner were the election to have gone differently. So, can I borrow a cup of perspective from you all? I seem to be a little short at the moment.


My questions are:
1) What, if any, defense can the "not my president" chanters of today muster that the belligerent conservatives of a hypothetical Hillary-win not?

2) What, if anything, can be done in the face of an incoming presidency that looks like pure poison? I mean, even if liberals come pouring out to vote in the 2018 and 2020 elections, will that be enough?


Last edited by Shatner on Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:48 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Liberal Civility vs. Freaking the Fuck Out Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Shatner wrote:
Well, now the reverse has happened and there are some very visible folks on the Left saying that we need to calm down and give Trump a chance. We should, they add, resist his administration to our fullest ability, but only after they actually do wrong, rather than simply be the winners we didn't want.


1) If climate change was fake, we would be equivalent to climate change deniers in asserting it. But it's not. If Racism was true, we would be equivalent to racists in opposing it, but it isn't. What makes Republicans whining about Obama, and hypothetical Clinton whining, crazy is not that it happens and they lose an election, it's that they are fucking crazy. Every single time they said "Obama's going to take our guns!" and "Obama's going to make foreign countries have no respect for us" and "Obama's going to crash the economy!" And every time, Obama didn't take their guns, foreign respect for the US was at an all time high since it's started being tracked, and he provided slow economic growth and recovery from the monstrous recession the Republicans caused.

Trump is going crash the economy, he is going to damage the fairness of future elections, and he is going to fucking up foreign policy so that he can have more personal money. Being right is 100% of the difference.

2) "Actually do wrong" is a nebulous concept. The time to start complaining about how black people won't be allowed to vote in 2020 is when Trump appoints Jeff Sessions, a guy who's entire senate career was based in opposition to the voting rights act, to enforce the voting rights act. Not when he's confirmed by the republican senate who should have known better (but didn't because no one told them because we were giving Trump a chance) and he first doesn't prosecute the renewed 100% Republican North Carolina who's republican governor got fewer votes but who's republican legislature declared that he gets to stay governor anyway, and republican Supreme Court, where the voters appointed a Progressive Democrat over a Republican, but then the Republican Legislature adds two new justices appointed by the fewer votes Governor declares that poll taxes are totally fine, and passes a poll tax law, and then the Federal Supreme Court made up of Roberts "My Life Long Goal of Killing The Voting Rights Act is Almost Here", Thomas "Fuck the Federal Government", and Alito and Kennedy "As Long as Republicans Are In Charge To Cut Taxes, Anything is Okay" joined by [Trump appointee] "Why Doesn't This Law Also Declare That All Jews Must Be Burnt in Furnances" declare that it's not an unconstitutional poll tax.

It's okay to predict future wrongdoing based on Present Wrongdoing. And Trump is spending US foreign policy capital right this second to make sure his hotels and golf clubs get favorable treatment, so it's a pretty fucking good guess that he's going to keep doing. Trump is right now meeting with a Homeland Security candidate with a plan for a Muslim Registry and Voter Roll Purges (that have never and should never have anything fucking to do with Homeland Security) so it's a pretty good bet that whatever candidate he picks will have plans for Muslim Registries and Voter Roll Purges.
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Liberal Civility vs. Freaking the Fuck Out Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Shatner wrote:
1) What, if any, defense can the "not my president" chanters of today muster that the belligerent conservatives of a hypothetical Hillary-win not?


Obviously, we can get into other shit, like how Trump campaigned on committing war crimes and otherwise wiping his ass with the Constitution he's supposed to take an oath to protect, but as far as the election goes:

1. Popular vote win.
2. Voter suppression.
3. Police coup.
4. Motherfucking obvious fucking collusion with a foreign fucking power.

I'm short on time at the moment, but if you'd like me to expound on any of those, let me know.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Mark me for flipping the fuck out. There is a fundamental difference between R-Money followers in 2012 being sad because they thought that a majority of voters agreed with them and they were wrong to us being sad in 2016 because we thought that a majority of voters agreed with us and we were right, but the democratic institutions of the country have failed completely and awarded victory to the people who got less votes and now they are running around promoting real world violence against the most vulnerable members of our society.

-Frank
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Shatner
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
Mark me for flipping the fuck out. There is a fundamental difference between R-Money followers in 2012 being sad because they thought that a majority of voters agreed with them and they were wrong to us being sad in 2016 because we thought that a majority of voters agreed with us and we were right, but the democratic institutions of the country have failed completely and awarded victory to the people who got less votes and now they are running around promoting real world violence against the most vulnerable members of our society.

-Frank

Okay. So, what would a productive form of flipping the fuck out actually look like? I mean, I'd love to see some sort of rapid mobilization by the Democrats to use Obama's remaining time in office to get some people brought up on treason charges for colluding with foreign powers and the like, but barring some very uncharacteristic behavior from the Establishment Left, I have no idea what progressive outrage could meaningfully do.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The thing you need to do is invent a time machine, go back in time, and be significantly more outraged about this long standing issue even back when the establishment was assuring you your own tribes establishment shill moving you towards undemocratic fascism just a bit slower than the other guy was going to win despite the corruption of your democracy.

But thing is, like everything else fucked up your country does, as long as a democrat is president you dumb fuckers don't give a shit.
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
Mark me for flipping the fuck out. There is a fundamental difference between R-Money followers in 2012 being sad because they thought that a majority of voters agreed with them and they were wrong to us being sad in 2016 because we thought that a majority of voters agreed with us and we were right, but the democratic institutions of the country have failed completely and awarded victory to the people who got less votes and now they are running around promoting real world violence against the most vulnerable members of our society.

-Frank


I find this focus on the popular vote to be missing the point.

The popular vote is asinine. People are idiots. They vote for stupid and horrible things. If the majority of people vote for stupid and horrible things, that does not suddenly make those things good. If we cared about the popular vote, we wouldn't have gay marriage right now but we would have segregation.

It is absolutely necessary to balance competing interest groups by apportioning the vote between them, or else the biggest interest groups will just fuck over all the others for no reason but that they can and don't care enough to bother not doing so.

In America we define those interest groups according to self-governing geographic sub-regions, because it's the easiest and most convenient way to do it in a federal democracy with self-governing sub-units. But we could just as well apportion the vote according to race, or gender, or sexual orientation. Some countries do it by religion, though that wouldn't fly too well over here.

You could argue that apportioning representation according to self-governing regions is outdated and we should proportion according to some other criteria, instead, but arguing that we should apportion at all is daft.

The fucking Brexit won the popular vote, for crying out loud. The popular vote is stupid.

Our democracy did not fail. It functioned to protect the interests of people in flyover country, as it was supposed to.


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Mask_De_H
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That was so fucking stupid the only way to engage it is to insult you.

Hyzmarca, you are a fucking idiot and should never talk about anything political again. Take your pseudointellectual ignorance and shove it so far up your ass it comes out your mouth.
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Mask_De_H wrote:
That was so fucking stupid the only way to engage it is to insult you.

Hyzmarca, you are a fucking idiot and should never talk about anything political again. Take your pseudointellectual ignorance and shove it so far up your ass it comes out your mouth.


You can't say "what about scotland's vote?" in recard to the Brexit and not say "What about Wisconsson's vote?" in regard to the presidental election.
Well you can, but it would be hypocritical.

Scotland is part of the United Kingdom because the United Kingdom is supposed to protect its interests.

Wisconsin is part of the United States because the United States is supposed to protect its interests.

The Brexit fucked Scotland, and made a lot of Scots regret not leaving the Union. And it wouldn't have happened if votes were apportioned to the United Kingdom's constituent countries, instead of the whole things going to the popular vote winner.

Wisconsin thought that Trump would serve their interests better than Hillary. Deal with it.


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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The problem with the popular vote argument isn't that it's wrong. Hillary won the popular vote and as such losing the electoral vote is pretty shitty, especially by the rather large margin she lost the electoral vote. You guys SHOULD reform your electoral system and if you'd been clamoring for it with anything like the panic you are now back when you thought you'd win anyway I'd have some sympathy for you.

The problem is she won the popular vote by a rather small margin, a margin not large enough by a long shot to sound like a legitimate rallying cry of any form. Come back when she exceeds a 3% margin on the popular vote, she might yet certainly a bunch of desperately reaching Hillary apologists still optimistically hope that late, late, late, bonus round that doesn't fucking matter mail in votes or some shit might one day years from now push her popular vote margin "even higher" than... not very fucking much at all.
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Mechalich
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There is an actual means to discount the popular vote win by Clinton. It goes something like this: the Electoral College decides the victory, therefore candidates compete according to the constraints established by the electoral college and the competitive versus non-competitive nature of certain states has dramatic impacts on turnout, meaning that the popular vote total under the electoral college does not accurately reflect what the popular vote would be if the national popular vote were a deciding factor.

This is even at least partly true. If you live in a safe state, in a safe district where your House representative runs unopposed, and your Senate seats are either safe or simply not up that year, you might not have a single competitive race on the ballot. So people who represent the opposing view have little incentive to show up and vote. It is therefore possible to argue that under a national popular vote Trump might have done better in places like California and New York, while Clinton might have done better in places like Louisiana and North Dakota.

Now, in reality the structure of the Electoral College provides such a massive advantage to the conservative candidate that getting rid of it would swing the pendulum so far towards the democrats that the currently constituted Republican party would have no chance nationwide.
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tussock
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:15 am    Post subject: Re: Liberal Civility vs. Freaking the Fuck Out Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Shatner wrote:
If Clinton had eked out the win, there'd be outrage and violence and twitter wars and cries about rigged elections.

So, just so you know, Trump eked out the win, and there is violence and twitters wars and swastikas being painted on things and cries for white power going up across the south. But it's not that the pro-Clinton people are doing horrible things, it's that the pro-Trump people are. They're worse, because they won.

Note: If Clinton wins, bad people do bad things; If Trump wins, bad people do bad things.

Trump called in the major media reps yesterday to scream at them for an hour about how they were all wrong and he won and they should be ashamed and he'll make sure they can't do that again. This is the world now. He controls your country for four years.

Yes, there are also some protests about how this is bad. But it is bad.

Quote:
My questions are:
1) What, if any, defense can the "not my president" chanters of today muster that the belligerent conservatives of a hypothetical Hillary-win not?

2) What, if anything, can be done in the face of an incoming presidency that looks like pure poison? I mean, even if liberals come pouring out to vote in the 2018 and 2020 elections, will that be enough?


1) He's really going to set up a registry for Muslims. And is talking about how internment camps are a good idea. You know what that is, right? You know how the registry for Jews with associated internment camps went, right?

2) You're probably fucked. The Republicans intend to double down on voter disenfranchisement and gerrymandering to hold an ever smaller minority in power, and combine it with xenophobic purges and immigration policies to shape the future voter base in their favour. They also intend to kill education, because uneducated people love 'em, and have announced an end to the national curriculum, so Texas can just teach kids that god loves republicans and hates [EDITED] and you get an F for saying anything different. Woohoo, cowboy, hang on because the ride gets a little rough from here.

Their path to the future was always either become less racist, or become way more racist, and they have taken the latter route into the white house (except Trump won't actually live there because it's less nice than his penthouse.)

--

But sure, those Republicans would've also done bad things if Clinton won, just not while being President of the United States.
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erik
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Tussock it makes me incredibly happy that you wrote all that since you are utterly incapable of not being wrong.
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, Trump has promised to do, has done in the past and is chosen to surrounding himself with people who have tried or succeeded at doing horrible stuff that Clinton has not.

As to what can be done, I can't say.
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Longes
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Liberal Civility vs. Freaking the Fuck Out Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

tussock wrote:
So, just so you know, Trump eked out the win, and there is violence and twitters wars and swastikas being painted on things and cries for white power going up across the south. But it's not that the pro-Clinton people are doing horrible things, it's that the pro-Trump people are. They're worse, because they won.


From what I read, there are anti-Trump color revolution style protests as well.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Liberal Civility vs. Freaking the Fuck Out Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Longes wrote:
From what I read, there are anti-Trump color revolution style protests as well.


I know that you are used to getting your information from propaganda mills, but like, man dude, please try harder.

The Washington times is literally owned by it's former founder's wife who now runs the cult he also founded because it was not acting conservative enough, so he restructured it and bought it out again to regain full editorial control (and then died).

I mean, I know you claim to just be totally ignorant of US media, and not at all a stupid right wing shill, but whatever small claim you had for that is dying really quickly when literally 100% of your citations are to shit like this.

Do you not see how "non-violent protest" is different from "random beatings and swastika's painted on all the law offices and banks and synagogues even though their nazi candidate won"

Here's a fucking hint that's hard for you to understand, since there's only one political party where you come from: If a news story is more than half quotes from one party, and has no quotes from anyone on the other, and has no mention of even contacting them and getting a no comment response, and the rest of the article is unsourced statements of fact about how George Soros is a boogieman, it's not a real paper.

George Soros has literally never been relevant ever to any news story in the history of the universe, but he gets brought up all the time by crazy right wingers because they need a secret boogieman to fund all the people that don't like them, because the alternative is that people actually don't like them.

You know what, here it is. If you ever see George Soros's name, just stop reading that article, and forget everything you read.
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Longes
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/11/anti-trump-protests-turn-violent-161111090846256.html

That better for you?
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Longes wrote:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/11/anti-trump-protests-turn-violent-161111090846256.html

That better for you?


"Protests turn violent" followed by a newstory about how across 12 major cities huge protests take place without any violence, but one specific city had a few people go crazy and then had the actual crowd reject them and help the police apprehend them...

Yep, great evidence of the evil liberal menace you got there. Try reading the article instead of just the headline.
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Longes
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Liberal Civility vs. Freaking the Fuck Out Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Shatner wrote:
There'd be shrill individuals crying about how afraid they were for themselves, their loved ones, and the future of this country under the upcoming regime.


There would be? Didn't we get an entire thread on the topic?


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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I suspect Longes buys heavily into whatever the fuck the Russian media decides to spits out, and as such his forays into US news drop him directly into the crazy Republican conspiracy theories.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

DSMatticus wrote:
I suspect Longes buys heavily into whatever the fuck the Russian media decides to spits out, and as such his forays into US news drop him directly into the crazy Republican conspiracy theories.


Well that's just common sense - Longes is still in Russia, and he knows what's good for him. If I lived there I would absolutely be posting whatever Putin said should be posted. After all, in Firefox you keep tabs in your browser, but in SovietPutin's Russia, browser keeps tabs on you.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
After all, in Firefox you keep tabs in your browser, but in SovietPutin's Russia, browser keeps tabs on you.

http://instantrimshot.com/
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
DSMatticus wrote:
I suspect Longes buys heavily into whatever the fuck the Russian media decides to spits out, and as such his forays into US news drop him directly into the crazy Republican conspiracy theories.


Well that's just common sense - Longes is still in Russia, and he knows what's good for him. If I lived there I would absolutely be posting whatever Putin said should be posted. After all, in Firefox you keep tabs in your browser, but in SovietPutin's Russia, browser keeps tabs on you.


...aaand sigged. That masturbation quote was getting quite old.
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After all, in Firefox you keep tabs in your browser, but in SovietPutin's Russia, browser keeps tabs on you.
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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Longes moved to Germany. The jingoism is real.
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Longes
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Chamomile wrote:
Longes moved to Germany. The jingoism is real.


Posting links to US media - much jingoism.
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