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How long until Trump kills a kid?
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infected slut princess
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:31 pm    Post subject: How long until Trump kills a kid? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Obama was inaugurated on January 20, 2009.

Three days later, a US drone strike on Waziristan killed four children.

Now Trump is taking over the drone program. Uh oh!

I give Trump two weeks TOPS before he kills a kid with a drone.

Is that overly optimistic?
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deaddmwalking
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't think Trump will be at the controls of any drones. I don't think that being the commander-in-chief automatically makes you responsible for every combat death. He certainly could adjust policy and/or suspend combat operations, but I wouldn't expect a drastic change in that regard.

We do live in a period of history in which most belligerents agree that civilian casualties should be minimized. But that's very new. Dresden and Hiroshima are both examples from modern history of full-scale assaults on civilians.

Weapons kill people. If you have weapons, sometimes they'll kill someone you wish they wouldn't. That's true whether it is an unsecured firearm that a toddler pulls from a purse or a drone targeting a known terrorist.

There are a lot of things you could lay at Trump's feet, but this is a stretch. You could talk about what the proper duty of care should be to prevent civilian casualties or discuss the use of automated weapons in a moral society, but you didn't.

I give you a 3 out of 10 for your trolling attempt.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

deaddmwalking wrote:
There are a lot of things you could lay at Trump's feet, but this is a stretch.


Well obviously because his goal isn't to lay anything at Trump's feet, it is to equate Trump and Obama as much as possible, and normalize Trump as best he can.
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infected slut princess
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I realize Idiot Virgin Kaelik lives in an alternate reality where killing kids is perfectly fine as long as Democrats do it...

... but DeadDMwalking have you ever read about Obama and his "kill list"?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html

It seems that Trump takes over that process by default. I think that's troubling because I have a feeling Trump might really enjoy this process.

Now if you've read that article, it shouldn't be a stretch to worry about Trump seriously participating in killing little kids.

Kaelik is a sociopath who cheers for death and rape at the hands of politicians he likes, but any sensible person should be against dropping bombs on little kids.
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deaddmwalking
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sure, any sensible person would agree that in the abstract, dropping bombs on kids is bad. But we don't live in an abstract world. Situations will arise where a particular action is hard to propose in the abstract, but make a certain grim practical sense in the concrete.

Imagine, for a moment, that you were in charge on 9/11 and the first plane had struck. Let's say you were fairly suspect of three additional planes that were not responding to radio calls and had deviated from their flight course. Further, let's say you have the ability to destroy those planes with missiles, knowing that there are than 500 innocent lives, including children on each plane?

For most people there comes a point where an innocent life is an acceptable cost to prevent a greater tragedy. But since we lack perfect knowledge of the future, we are necessarily going to disagree on the probability of a specific outcome.

Maybe you'd shoot down 3 planes, maybe 2, maybe none. No matter what you choose, in this country you must justify your deciision to the American people.

Obama did not invade Afghanistan or Iraq. Quite obviously people are concerned about the US policy towards the Middle East. On the whole, the American people approved of the job he was doing to re-elect him emphatically enough that he won both the popular and electoral votes.

Notably, you can disagree with a number of policies of a particular leader and still believe that they are, for the most part, a qualified and legitimate representative of our Democracy. You can also believe the contrary.

Of course, we've already established that whatever your personal beliefs, ISP, they're stupid and wrong. I'm quite convinced that if you are correct on any point it is only because you've arrived there through a series of mistakes. Three wrongs can make a right.
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Is this limited to deaths due to issuing orders? If we are to include deaths caused due to an increased climate of hatred and fear, we don't have to wait till after his inauguration, though determine which deaths are normal and which due to Trump would be hard.
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SlyJohnny
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It IS kind of hilarious that dems are suddenly realising that an unchecked program of extrajudicial assassinations informed by a panopticon spy network might have been a bad idea, now that Crazy Guy from Other Party has control over the apparatus they created.

Last edited by SlyJohnny on Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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MGuy
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If by suddenly you mean it has been a complaint people have had for years, sure.
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Lokamayadon
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There are people complaining about it since the Cold War, don't be silly. Rolling Eyes
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

SlyJohnny is objectively a right wing concern troll who spreads memes intended to make Democrats look bad and to normalize the very worst behavior of the Republicans. That is one hundred percent of what he does.

As to the thread concept, it's inherently absurd. The president sets a whole manner of foreign and domestic policies and appoints a huge number of bureaucrats who do that as well. On the big scale, every choice and every policy leads to some number of dead children. It is simple slight of hand to claim that the children caught in crossfires of overseas military operations count as blood on the hands of some politician or another while the deaths of children shot by people with completely unregulated guns here at home don't. And let's not forget the much larger numbers of children brought low by infectious or environmental disease.

Trump is going to kill far more children by appointing an anti-environmentalist hack to regulate industrial pollutants than he is by literally sending marines and robots to shoot children in the face. Dead is dead, and the Trump policies are very well known to have a very large death toll associated with them. We don't have to speculate on what wars Trump will start by action and inaction around the world. He will start some, because he has no idea what international diplomatic balances of power have been set up to prevent wars and he doesn't care. But pneumonia associated with childhood asthma is simply going to increase. And every Trump voter and right wing concern troll like Sly Johnny has that on their heads.

-Frank
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Count Arioch the 28th
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't listen to people that use "virgin" as an insult because I'm no longer in middle school and it's nowhere near as funny as it was 25 years ago.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Considering the incidents of violent racist attacks (including cases where the police rushed in... to restrain the victim) since the election, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that he already has killed a kid just by being elected and normalising this shit.
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infected slut princess
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Trump's first homicides:

http://news.antiwar.com/2017/01/22/yemen-reports-first-us-drone-strikes-under-trump/
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I like the part where people are surprised that a republican would continue a policy of killing people. Apparently they've never seen the Republican Platform, which is made entirely out of planks manufactured from the bones of the people they have murdered.
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infected slut princess
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Why should anyone be surprised that any president has a default policy of killing people? The American Empire is murderous by nature.

I mean, some anti-war folks were surprised that Obama, the peace candidate of 2008 (a big part of why he won IMO), spent his presidency bombing Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, and Somalia. Was their surprise a sign of their naiveté?

The Bush administration launched the drone assassination program in October 2001, coinciding with the invasion of Afghanistan. They expanded it to Yemen in 2002 then it was off to the races. Under Obama, things went farther with the "kill list" and the "disposition matrix" and NSA meta-data. It's been reported that drone assassinations were up 9x with Obama. Now Trump takes over a program that has gotten bigger and worse over time. In all likelihood, it will be worse still by the time Trump is done with it.

Hilariously (and completely unsurprisingly), Stalin-fappers like Frank Trollman and his girlfriend Kaelicker are perfectly fine with government murder programs as long as they're done by Obama or Stalin, but then they get all bent out of shape when "the wrong person" gets in charge of the government murder program. What a bunch of fucking idiots. Maybe they should just oppose the government murder programs -- but they don't because they fantasize that Stalin will use the government murder program to give them free healthcare. Fucking retards.
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infected slut princess
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
I don't listen to people that use "virgin" as an insult because I'm no longer in middle school and it's nowhere near as funny as it was 25 years ago.


Wow strong words! LOL obviously you're a lonely virgin otherwise you wouldn't even bother commenting about it.
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Zaranthan
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What I want to know is where all the fear mongering about drone strikes comes from. UAVs are piloted remotely, but there's still a human at the controls. A drone pilot has to get clearance to fire just like an Apache pilot, and he's got the same information, because the Apache uses his cameras to see what his eyes can't reach.
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...is the dead guy posthumously at fault for his own death and, due to the felony murder law, his own murderer?

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Voss
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Zaranthan wrote:
What I want to know is where all the fear mongering about drone strikes comes from.

Probably from the bombs and missiles being fired from drones.

I don't really understand the thrust of your point. No one on the ground is engaging in a philosophical debate about computer vs. pilot control. They're saying 'Oh shit, drones! Better run before I get blown the fuck up!'
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
Zaranthan wrote:
What I want to know is where all the fear mongering about drone strikes comes from.

Probably from the bombs and missiles being fired from drones.

I don't really understand the thrust of your point. No one on the ground is engaging in a philosophical debate about computer vs. pilot control. They're saying 'Oh shit, drones! Better run before I get blown the fuck up!'


No, there are lots of people that are specifically having terrified reactions to drone killings that they totally wouldn't have if they were helicopter killings. It's a real thing.

I think the simplest explanation is that drones are actually a lot better at it, and doing it from farther away, and less detectable, so with increased efficacy comes increased use, and thus, increased fear. And the people making a huge deal about drones are probably just using drone as a shorthand for the increase in targeted aerial attacks.
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:
I think the simplest explanation is that drones are actually a lot better at it, and doing it from farther away, and less detectable, so with increased efficacy comes increased use, and thus, increased fear. And the people making a huge deal about drones are probably just using drone as a shorthand for the increase in targeted aerial attacks.


Also, they are cheaper to run, and safer, in that if one goes done, it's less expensive that a piloted plane, and there's no pilot to worry about.
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Zaranthan
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:
No, there are lots of people that are specifically having terrified reactions to drone killings that they totally wouldn't have if they were helicopter killings. It's a real thing.


You don't even have to be that hypothetical. There are dudes in helicopters dropping hellfires on people, and there are dudes in command centers dropping hellfires on people. Nobody is complaining about the helicopters, but you can't watch a day's worth of news without hearing the phrase "drone strike" used as if it's fucking Skynet at the controls.
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...is the dead guy posthumously at fault for his own death and, due to the felony murder law, his own murderer?

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Blicero
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've seen statistics claiming that drone strikes tend to result in more collateral damage than traditional airstrikes do. I'm not sure of their veracity though. If they are accurate, that would be a reason to have a negative reaction to drone strikes in their current incarnation.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:
Voss wrote:
Zaranthan wrote:
What I want to know is where all the fear mongering about drone strikes comes from.

Probably from the bombs and missiles being fired from drones.

I don't really understand the thrust of your point. No one on the ground is engaging in a philosophical debate about computer vs. pilot control. They're saying 'Oh shit, drones! Better run before I get blown the fuck up!'


No, there are lots of people that are specifically having terrified reactions to drone killings that they totally wouldn't have if they were helicopter killings. It's a real thing.

I think the simplest explanation is that drones are actually a lot better at it, and doing it from farther away, and less detectable, so with increased efficacy comes increased use, and thus, increased fear. And the people making a huge deal about drones are probably just using drone as a shorthand for the increase in targeted aerial attacks.


Ah. In that case it's probably the helplessness. Helicopters at least in theory can be spotted and shot down, whereas further away and less detectable will raise the likelihood that the first thing you know is your world is blowing up. Which is pretty fucking terrifying, with or without Skynet.

Blicero wrote:
I've seen statistics claiming that drone strikes tend to result in more collateral damage than traditional airstrikes do. I'm not sure of their veracity though. If they are accurate, that would be a reason to have a negative reaction to drone strikes in their current incarnation.

Bombings in general involve much more collateral than we're usually willing to talk about these days. That Doctors Without Borders hospital in Afghanistan, for example, was hit by a traditional piloted aircraft.

Terror and devastation is honestly part of the point of a bombing campaign.


Last edited by Voss on Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Blicero wrote:
I've seen statistics claiming that drone strikes tend to result in more collateral damage than traditional airstrikes do. I'm not sure of their veracity though. If they are accurate, that would be a reason to have a negative reaction to drone strikes in their current incarnation.


Drone strikes use hellfire anti-tank air-to-ground missiles, with a 20 pound warhead. Traditional airstrikes use 2000lb guided bombs.

As a general rule, 2000 pounds of high explosives is going to cause more collateral damage than 20 pounds of high explosives will. And that's not getting into the fact that the people dropping the bombs have been doing the extremely monotonous task of making sure that the auto-pilot is working properly for 12 hours straight and are sitting in a diaper full of poop and so aren't exactly making the best targeting decisions.

When it comes to trying to kill specific individuals with high explosives dropped from the air, drone strikes cause much less collateral damage on a per attack basis.

However, and this is a big however, drone strikes are much more common. Traditional airstrikes generally involve a plane launching from California, flying literally half way around the world, dropping its payload, and flying back home with a mid-air refueling by the time they've reached their target, the pilots have been flying 12 hours straight. They really don't have time to do anything but drop their load and go home. If the target has moved, then no bombs get dropped. It's expensive. It takes a long time. It wasn't all that common. But drones can loiter for days. They're launched in theater, and their pilots can take bathroom breaks. As such, drone strikes are less expensive and much faster. Because of this, they happen much more often.

So a year's worth of drone strikes causes more collateral damage than a year worth of conventional airstrikes. Because a year might have 5 conventional airstrikes, but 5000 drone strikes.


Last edited by hyzmarca on Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:41 pm; edited 2 times in total
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infected slut princess
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Drones are a tool. The tool itself is an interesting issue -- after all, a bomb will tend to produce more collateral damage than a sniper rifle.

But you should focus on the method of choosing assassination targets.

For example: using NSA metadata to pick assassination targets.

Says a former drone operator: "It’s really like we’re targeting a cell phone. We’re not going after people – we’re going after their phones, in the hopes that the person on the other end of that missile is the bad guy.”

That's just deplorably negligent and that's a piece of the puzzle as to why drone attacks end up killing so many innocent people -- the process itself is stupid.

*Queue the Stalin-fappers saying the process is ok or good enough when controlled by Shithead Team A but not when controlled by Shithead Team B.
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