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What would successful Democratic Resistance look like?
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Chamomile wrote:
Omegonthesane wrote:

Supporting Trump is racist sexist, homophobic, transphobic, and anti-everyone-not-the-1% no matter why you supported him. His entire platform was nothing but bigotry and robbing the poor to give to the rich.

Every person who voted Trump said in so doing that they would rather their leader be a serial rapist who actively despises every woman and every foreigner and will gleefully see every homosexual and every not-cisgender person tortured to death for his own benefit than the most qualified candidate in history standing on a platform of making America a truly better place. They might not have admitted to doing so but it is what their actions caused. When someone tells you they will cut off their own nose to spite you, generally you believe them.


Yes, someone did say that they are in fact racist? Do you see how that's different from saying we should say it to their face and purge the party as you claimed?
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Omegonthesane wrote:
Berkserker wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
tussock wrote:
Mostly there's convincing moderate Republicans (a lot of people)


Zero is not a lot of people.


You do realize that attitude is pretty self-defeating, right? It's like racism and sexism charges. Opposing Obama was racist no matter why you opposed him, opposing Hillary was sexist no matter why you opposed her. There's a lot of people who just don't care anymore.

Supporting Trump is racist sexist, homophobic, transphobic, and anti-everyone-not-the-1% no matter why you supported him. His entire platform was nothing but bigotry and robbing the poor to give to the rich.

Every person who voted Trump said in so doing that they would rather their leader be a serial rapist who actively despises every woman and every foreigner and will gleefully see every homosexual and every not-cisgender person tortured to death for his own benefit than the most qualified candidate in history standing on a platform of making America a truly better place. They might not have admitted to doing so but it is what their actions caused. When someone tells you they will cut off their own nose to spite you, generally you believe them.


That's pretty untrue.

For one thing, Trump forced the Miss Universe Pageant to change its rules to allow transwomen. For another, he said that the North Carolina bathroom law was stupid. The fact of the matter is that Trump has a better Transgender rights record than Hillary does.

Nor does he seem to have a rob the poor for the benefit of the rich economic policy. His stated economic policy is very much "fuck the rich." It's bad because the loss of trade will hurt the economy which will hurt the poor, but it's aimed at wealthy corporations.

And some people might thing that his anti-banker rhetoric is dog-whistle antisemitism, but it's more likely to just be anti-bank, because Bernie fucking Sanders uses the same rhetoric. The banks have been unpopular since the sub-prime crisis. Liberals and Conservatives both hate them.

Despises every woman and every foreigner are such a sweeping claim that it's obvious bullshit.

Of course, the rape allegations were never proven, and it's easy to make allegations.
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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik, is your actual platform right now to try and convince me that you are too stupid to understand the conversation?
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Kaelik
ArchDemon of Rage


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hyzmarca wrote:
That's pretty untrue.

For one thing, Trump forced the Miss Universe Pageant to change its rules to allow transwomen. For another, he said that the North Carolina bathroom law was stupid. The fact of the matter is that Trump has a better Transgender rights record than Hillary does.

Nor does he seem to have a rob the poor for the benefit of the rich economic policy. His stated economic policy is very much "fuck the rich." It's bad because the loss of trade will hurt the economy which will hurt the poor, but it's aimed at wealthy corporations.

And some people might thing that his anti-banker rhetoric is dog-whistle antisemitism, but it's more likely to just be anti-bank, because Bernie fucking Sanders uses the same rhetoric. The banks have been unpopular since the sub-prime crisis. Liberals and Conservatives both hate them.

Despises every woman and every foreigner are such a sweeping claim that it's obvious bullshit.

Of course, the rape allegations were never proven, and it's easy to make allegations.


Wholly shit you are a gullible idiot who hangs out at brietbart. His ex wife alleged he raped her, gave testimony, settled, and never backed off her claim but isn't allowed to talk about it any more. If that sounds like "just an allegation" then you are a fucking shithead that is part of the problem.

Also, I love how you quaintly believe that his tax plan to lower taxes on the rich while raising them on the poor and remove Dodd-Frank is part of his war against the rich.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Chamomile wrote:
Kaelik, is your actual platform right now to try and convince me that you are too stupid to understand the conversation?


I know that at zero points in this conversation did anyone claim that it was a good idea to alienate trump voters or attempt to purge them, but the random ass Trump supporter is pretending that we did, and you fell hook line and sinker for it and now feel compelled to pretend that was ever a thing that anyone actually said.
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tussock
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
His stated economic policy is very much "fuck the rich."


Up is down, then. Nice to know.
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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's a "yes." Okay, let's go through this step-by-step. The first post about Republican voters is from Omegon, but it's a response to this one from Berkserker:

Quote:
You do realize that attitude is pretty self-defeating, right? It's like racism and sexism charges. Opposing Obama was racist no matter why you opposed him, opposing Hillary was sexist no matter why you opposed her. There's a lot of people who just don't care anymore.


Berkserker is nominally responding to some other stuff here, but his post is a total non-sequitir so I won't bother quoting any of it. So far as I can tell, Berkserker has confused a conversation about Republican policymakers to be about Republican voters, which is probably why Omegon then begins talking about Republican voters:

Quote:
Supporting Trump is racist sexist, homophobic, transphobic, and anti-everyone-not-the-1% no matter why you supported him. His entire platform was nothing but bigotry and robbing the poor to give to the rich.

Every person who voted Trump said in so doing that they would rather their leader be a serial rapist who actively despises every woman and every foreigner and will gleefully see every homosexual and every not-cisgender person tortured to death for his own benefit than the most qualified candidate in history standing on a platform of making America a truly better place. They might not have admitted to doing so but it is what their actions caused. When someone tells you they will cut off their own nose to spite you, generally you believe them.


So, Berkserker opens with "saying there's no moderate Republican voters is just as failed a platform as saying all Republican voters are racist, sexist, etc. etc." Omegon responds that everyone who voted for Trump actually is racist, sexist, etc. etc. Note that Berkserker's exact words here are that the attitude is "self-defeating" so we are definitely talking about pragmatics. Which is why I respond with this conditional statement:

Quote:
If your plan is to actually persuade people to vote for your candidate next time, "you and everyone like you will never, ever be welcome in the society we hope to build" is a pretty shitty opening gambit.


If there was any doubt that the conversation is about winning elections and not just ambiguous moral judgements, now would've been the time for someone to say so, since that would've made my statement irrelevant. That is not what Omegon does. Instead Omegon posts this:

Quote:
It is literally the strategy that Trump used.

There are already way more than enough people that a sufficiently exciting candidate would've caused a Dem landslide. We need to reach more of them. We don't need to reach for votes from any demographic defined by their hatred of other identities.


Now with the magic of something called "context" we can see here that Omegon is suggesting that everyone who voted Trump did so primarily out of prejudice and are a lost cause to the Democratic Party. It's technically true that if you wanted to be a reductionist asshole you could say that technically no specific sentence explicitly states that, and it is also true that you, specifically, totally do want to be a reductionist asshole, but the actual reality is that in the context of a discussion about how to go about getting people to vote for Democratic candidates, Omegon used "every Trump voter is racist" as part of a platform whose ultimate conclusion was "the Democratic Party shouldn't even bother trying to convert anyone who voted for Trump."

My original response to Omegon (and angelfromanotherpin) claiming that the Republicans had won with this strategy was to point out that no, actually, they won with other stuff and in spite of rhetoric that is actively hostile to growing their base. Berkserker then says this:

Quote:
QFT. You're not going to get anywhere calling the undereducated whites racist, sexist hicks who should kneel for their betters. You'll get somewhere with them by promising to look out for their interests. Guess who spoke to them when nobody else would. As opposed to, y'know, casually joking about shutting down the industries they work in through regulation.

If we're going to talk historical trends, the Democrats used to be the party of the blue-collar worker.


This led to a conversation between you and Berkserker in which you point out that this is completely dumb, and wrong, and stupid, and you were right about that, and since Berkserker was nominally agreeing with me when he said that, I then made a post that begins with this:

Quote:
People who voted for Donald Trump because they read and understood his platform are a lost cause.


That post was pretty long and this one is too, so I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but its point is that the people who Berkserker claim can be converted to voting for Democrats probably can't, however there are other people who voted for Trump who probably can be persuaded to defect or return to the Democratic banner. Because Omegon absolutely did say that the Democratic Party doesn't need them in the same breath as he said that he thinks all of them are sexist and racist (they're not, by the way, being complicit in the election of a sexist, racist president is wrong, but not the same thing as personally believing in the inferiority of certain races or sexes) and it is not hard for anyone who's been paying attention to put those two together and figure out that Omegon thinks we totally should yell at Trump voters because they're not a vital part of a winning coalition going forward.
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hyzmarca wrote:
For one thing, Trump forced the Miss Universe Pageant to change its rules to allow transwomen. For another, he said that the North Carolina bathroom law was stupid. The fact of the matter is that Trump has a better Transgender rights record than Hillary does.

Donald Trump wrote:
“I did not know that she had a lawyer and especially Gloria Allred,” Trump later said. “In fact, had I known it was Gloria Allred, I probably would not have reversed my decision because, you know, Gloria is easy to beat.”

Now, I know Donald Trump impulsively talks about everyone who challenges him, but there he is boasting that had he thought he could get away with it he wouldn't have allowed her in to the pageant. Also, it's worth noting that the way you framed it ("Trump forced the Miss Universe Pageant to change its rules to allow transwomen") is complete bullshit. Trump, under backlash, changed the rules to defer to individual country's laws, and Canada happened to be a country in which he plausibly could have been sued for barring transwomen contestants. Basically his response was "if you can beat 'em, do it with a stick; if you can't beat 'em, whine on the news about how you totally could have if only you really wanted to." Donald Trump completely 180'd on North carolina's HB 2 and currently supports it. It only took something like a month after he initially came out against it.

Hyzmarca wrote:
Nor does he seem to have a rob the poor for the benefit of the rich economic policy. His stated economic policy is very much "fuck the rich." It's bad because the loss of trade will hurt the economy which will hurt the poor, but it's aimed at wealthy corporations.

Cutting taxes on the wealthiest people in the country is not a "fuck the rich" economic policy.

Hyzmarca wrote:
And some people might thing that his anti-banker rhetoric is dog-whistle antisemitism, but it's more likely to just be anti-bank, because Bernie fucking Sanders uses the same rhetoric. The banks have been unpopular since the sub-prime crisis. Liberals and Conservatives both hate them.

He's come out swinging against regulations generally and Dodd-Frank specifically. He is exactly as pro-Bank as Republicans always are.

I know you are just kind of flippantly cynical. That's your thing, sometimes it ends up being stupid, whatever. But this is like holy shit what? It's completely counterfactual and nonsensical. The basic elementary facts are just not there. It's puzzling how you can be so wrong. You basically invented your own Donald Trump, which to be fair, is probably what most of his supporters did - but your's is quite possibly the most bizarre I've ever seen.
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Whipstitch
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm also pretty distrustful of how bad Trump wants to make everyone into independent contractors. I don't exactly trust him and a Republican congress to worry too much about companies that treat their contractors as if they were employees.
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MGuy
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Not the most bizarre I've ever seen considering this week a gay catholic (white) male Trump supporter told me I was homophobic for telling him the Republican Party is decidedly anti-gay.
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