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Blade
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

AndreiChekov wrote:
The fact that Norway has classes to teach them that in Norway you are not permited to have sex with a woman without her consent shows how much of a cultural difference there is.


These classes are actually classes that are also given in regular high schools in Norway. Rape culture is a thing in the Western world as well.
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deaddmwalking
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, AndreiChekov, I'm sure you'll agree that of the nearly one quarter of the world's population that is Muslim, most of them aren't terrorists, just like of the nearly one third of Christians most of whom aren't terrorists.

If more than 1.5 Billion people who are adherents to a religion aren't terrorists, it would seem that something other than religion is the key factor in driving this level of extremism. Certainly terrorism does correlate strongly with religious extremism/fundamentalism, but it appears to be the same with Christian and non-Christian religions. Perhaps the religion doesn't itself justify the actions, but people who believe they're part of a 'larger cause' are more willing to sacrifice themselves to cause hate and terror, and religion just happens to be one of the 'larger causes' that most people encounter on a day to day basis.

Wouldn't you agree?

I mean, since the facts don't support your position, even marginally, that Islam leads to terrorism.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

maglag wrote:


But you know what they key difference is?

Christian countries no longer are theocracies. The pope no longer has the influence to call crusades upon the nonbelievers. Bishops don't rally armies to kill in the name of god. The bible no longer is an accepted method of government neither an accepted military treatise.


I see someone missed the George Bush Junior years. Yes, some of those statements are no longer true (But I think you'll find that a pope or other religious leader actually could put together the influence to call a crusade on a nonbeliever). But we had a crusade (yes, he actually called it that), backed up by religious rhetoric and religious reasons, and papered over with non-religious justifications (that were actually lies).

But lots of people totally want the bible to be an accepted method of government. They are also totally on the side that won some minor little election that just happened. Now where was that...?
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Occluded Sun
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Delusionistan, which seems to be your native country.

Look, people five hundred years ago and people today were/are both 'Christians', but their cultures are remarkably incompatible. If there were a country today that was populated by the attitudes and behaviors considered normal in Christendom half a millennium ago, we'd consider them barbarians.

A lot of the Muslim world IS pretty medieval, in fairness, and the branches of the religion that are most intolerant and crazy by modern standards are the ones being propped up by Saudi Arabia.

This is more about culture than religion as such. As culture goes, so the practice of religion follows. It's unreasonable to condemn all of Christianity because of the Westboro Baptists. (There are plenty of reasons to condemn Christianity as a whole, we don't need to go barrel-scraping).
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deaddmwalking
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

To me, it is laughable to refer to Islam as 'medieval' since during that time the Muslim world was a high water mark of culture and education. Rejecting modern science is not a historical trait of Islam, but it is of Christianity. Of course not all Christians reject, say, Evolution, but enough of them do that it would make me skeptical of any claim that Christians are open to new discoveries.

Again, there are some people who subscribe to a very strict reductive understanding of Islam that rejects anything that isn't in the Koran. Those people have more in common with fundamentalist Christians than you would feel comfortable with. And, just like other Fundamentalists, they choose some passages that they think are more important than others to defend a world-view that isn't really based on religious teachings at all.

For example, when the Law of Moses prescribed death by stoning for adultery, and a woman was caught in the act, it is remarkable that Jesus said, "Whoever is without sin among you, let him be the first to cast a stone at her". Or ignoring Matthew 7:1/Luke 6:37/Romans 2:1.

It feels good to claim superiority over another being for some imagined failing on their part. Nothing could be more unChristian.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

deaddmwalking wrote:
it is remarkable that Jesus said, "Whoever is without sin among you, let him be the first to cast a stone at her". Or ignoring Matthew 7:1/Luke 6:37/Romans 2:1.


Well except that Jesus definitely didn't say that. Because even if he existed at all, and you believe that any of the gospels contain anything said by Jesus, we have copies of John from the third and fourth century that don't have that line, and then from the fifth that do.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Occluded Sun wrote:
Delusionistan, which seems to be your native country.

Look, people five hundred years ago and people today were/are both 'Christians', but their cultures are remarkably incompatible. If there were a country today that was populated by the attitudes and behaviors considered normal in Christendom half a millennium ago, we'd consider them barbarians.

A lot of the Muslim world IS pretty medieval, in fairness, and the branches of the religion that are most intolerant and crazy by modern standards are the ones being propped up by Saudi Arabia.

This is more about culture than religion as such. As culture goes, so the practice of religion follows. It's unreasonable to condemn all of Christianity because of the Westboro Baptists. (There are plenty of reasons to condemn Christianity as a whole, we don't need to go barrel-scraping).

The Westboro? No... Definitely don't need to go barrel scraping. I'm talking about popular evangelicals that get news interviews all the damn time, like Falwell junior and his ilk that get invited to speak at the republic national convention. I'm not talking about Christendom in the 16th century. I'm talking about the demonstrable Christian attitudes prevalent in this fucking century, this fucking year, this fucking week.

Falwell junior is on record two days ago on how treating women like trump does isn't even a big deal, because hey, we're all sinners anyhow, so that behavior isn't unpresidential at all.


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deaddmwalking
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:
deaddmwalking wrote:
it is remarkable that Jesus said, "Whoever is without sin among you, let him be the first to cast a stone at her". Or ignoring Matthew 7:1/Luke 6:37/Romans 2:1.


Well except that Jesus definitely didn't say that. Because even if he existed at all, and you believe that any of the gospels contain anything said by Jesus, we have copies of John from the third and fourth century that don't have that line, and then from the fifth that do.


I wasn't aware that the bible the Westboro Church professes to be inspired by had those lines removed in order to be more historically accurate.

Point still stands - the Bible - as it exists today - has a lot more 'love your enemy' and a lot less 'kill the [EDITED]' than some people seem comfortable with.
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

deaddmwalking wrote:
Point still stands - the Bible - as it exists today - has a lot more 'love your enemy' and a lot less 'kill the [EDITED]' than some people seem comfortable with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1zjeYhJs7o&feature=youtu.be&t=11s
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Occluded Sun
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

deaddmwalking wrote:
To me, it is laughable to refer to Islam as 'medieval' since during that time the Muslim world was a high water mark of culture and education.

Two points:

1) Pretty much the entire Western world was in the throes of the Dark Ages. It wouldn't be that hard to be more enlightened than Europe at that time period.

2) That was pretty much the Golden Age of the Islamic world, and it happened to a large degree because people weren't taking the prescriptions of Islam all that seriously. For example, there were herbal and medical treatises from the era and region which had images of living beings - even humans! - which according to conservative interpretations were forbidden.

The Arab world is currently in the middle of its Dark Age.
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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

deaddmwalking wrote:

Point still stands - the Bible - as it exists today - has a lot more 'love your enemy' and a lot less 'kill the [EDITED]' than some people seem comfortable with.


That's something Christians who don't like what they read in the Old Testament say. The Old Testament is waaay longer than the New Testament. Also, the new one is where the idea of eternal damnation comes on.
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maglag
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RobbyPants wrote:
deaddmwalking wrote:

Point still stands - the Bible - as it exists today - has a lot more 'love your enemy' and a lot less 'kill the [EDITED]' than some people seem comfortable with.


That's something Christians who don't like what they read in the Old Testament say. The Old Testament is waaay longer than the New Testament. Also, the new one is where the idea of eternal damnation comes on.


That's why it's called the motherfucking New testament. It's an update, a patch, meant to upgrade.

Like when Jesus is about to be captured, and Jhon pulls out his sword while rolling initiative ready to go all "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!", Jesus tells him to stop. Those were the old ways. Jesus was working to implement something new and significantly less violent.

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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

maglag wrote:

That's why it's called the motherfucking New testament. It's an update, a patch, meant to upgrade.


So, the steadfast and eternal god isn't?

I mean, yes, there are a at least half a dozen different reasons you can use to explain why the bacon prohibition is no longer in effect. There are hate-the-sin-not-the-sinner Christians who don't advocate killing gays. There are even Christians who don't believe homosexuality is on any way bad.

...but there are bacon eating Christians who still argue why homosexuality is bad, despite the both rules being listed in the same book. Modern Christianity is more about cherry picking parts to fit a worldview than it is a coherent new-not-old narrative. That narrative is as naive as it is simplistic.


Quote:

Like when Jesus is about to be captured, and Jhon pulls out his sword while rolling initiative ready to go all "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!", Jesus tells him to stop. Those were the old ways. Jesus was working to implement something new and significantly less violent.

..,And he brought eternal torture (for not believing in invisible things!) into the picture. The fact that Jesus was preaching to an area of roman occupation might have factored heavily into the nonviolent rhetoric.

Everyone always talks about Jesus like he's this chill guy, and they forget that he put eternal hell into the equation.


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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

maglag wrote:
That's why it's called the motherfucking New testament. It's an update, a patch, meant to upgrade.

Like when Jesus is about to be captured, and Jhon pulls out his sword while rolling initiative ready to go all "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!", Jesus tells him to stop. Those were the old ways. Jesus was working to implement something new and significantly less violent.


People talking about what the "New Testament" was supposed to do who don't understand what the gospels were actually doing...

RobbyPants wrote:
Everyone always talks about Jesus like he's this chill guy, and they forget that he put eternal hell into the equation.


WARGALBARGAL!!!!!!!!!
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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:


RobbyPants wrote:
Everyone always talks about Jesus like he's this chill guy, and they forget that he put eternal hell into the equation.


WARGALBARGAL!!!!!!!!!

That one go over your head?

The Old Testament didn't have the Christian concept of hell in it.
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karpik777
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

maglag wrote:
That's why it's called the motherfucking New testament. It's an update, a patch, meant to upgrade.


Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
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maglag
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RobbyPants wrote:
maglag wrote:

That's why it's called the motherfucking New testament. It's an update, a patch, meant to upgrade.


So, the steadfast and eternal god isn't?

Pretty much. Jesus after all was declared to be part of the holy trinity, aka on the same level as god, and then he died when he got killed. Then he got better, but still with scars.

RobbyPants wrote:

I mean, yes, there are a at least half a dozen different reasons you can use to explain why the bacon prohibition is no longer in effect. There are hate-the-sin-not-the-sinner Christians who don't advocate killing gays. There are even Christians who don't believe homosexuality is on any way bad.

...but there are bacon eating Christians who still argue why homosexuality is bad, despite the both rules being listed in the same book. Modern Christianity is more about cherry picking parts to fit a worldview than it is a coherent new-not-old narrative. That narrative is as naive as it is simplistic.

We could indeed discuss the bible and its many internal contradictions all our lives.

But it's called CHRISTianity for a reason, and at the end of the day Christ was a chill dude that didn't go around killing/maiming/burning nor dropping plagues/curses or inciting armed revolt. Instead he healed the sick, raised a dead guy, and taught people to get along with each other, or at least not stab/stone each other when they disagreed on something. Which was something completely revolutionary at that time when might made right.

Also Jesus made sure there was always enough booze on parties. Best holy prophet-god ever? Best holy prophet-god ever.

RobbyPants wrote:

Quote:

Like when Jesus is about to be captured, and Jhon pulls out his sword while rolling initiative ready to go all "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!", Jesus tells him to stop. Those were the old ways. Jesus was working to implement something new and significantly less violent.

..,And he brought eternal torture (for not believing in invisible things!) into the picture. The fact that Jesus was preaching to an area of roman occupation might have factored heavily into the nonviolent rhetoric.

Everyone always talks about Jesus like he's this chill guy, and they forget that he put eternal hell into the equation.


1-Christianity doesn't get to claim dibs on hell of Eternal Torture. Several cultures had stuff like that, or just a sinner's soul destroyed for eternity. Heck, even the Old Testament had stuff like Sheol.
2-Jesus also teaches that no matter how much you sinned, it's never too late to repent yourself and have a chance of getting to heaven. Nobody's beyond salvation.
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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

On account of the nonviolence, I'd say you're right.

As for hell, my point wasn't that Christ created it from whole cloth; it was that he swapped the violence in this life for eternal torture in the next. As far as "upgrades" go, it's out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Yes, Judaism had Sheol, which was more of an analog for Hades than Hell. Everyone went there and it was not a place of torture.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RobbyPants wrote:
Kaelik wrote:


RobbyPants wrote:
Everyone always talks about Jesus like he's this chill guy, and they forget that he put eternal hell into the equation.


WARGALBARGAL!!!!!!!!!

That one go over your head?

The Old Testament didn't have the Christian concept of hell in it.


No you idiot, just providing just as much accurate content as you, because Jesus didn't invent anything, much less Hell. I just grow increasingly tired of people with no real knowledge of the new testament gullibly talking about what Jesus did.
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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If you want to look less stupid, reply to what I said and not what you imagined I said. I never said he invented it. I said he pulled it into the religion. I even clarified that in the post immediately above yours. I can't really help you any more than that.
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deaddmwalking
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Occluded Sun wrote:

2) That was pretty much the Golden Age of the Islamic world, and it happened to a large degree because people weren't taking the prescriptions of Islam all that seriously. For example, there were herbal and medical treatises from the era and region which had images of living beings - even humans! - which according to conservative interpretations were forbidden.

The Arab world is currently in the middle of its Dark Age.


This is a No True Scotsmen argument and we know that fallacious.

You are arguing that Muslims during the golden age of Islam weren't REAL Muslims, and the 99+% of Muslims today aren't REAL Muslims, and only the Jidhadist terrorists REALLY understand the Koran.

And at the same time you're arguing that the less than 1% of Christians that are also terrorists don't get the REAL meaning of Christianity.

How'd you get to be the one that decides the REAL MEANING of any of this?
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RobbyPants wrote:
If you want to look less stupid, reply to what I said and not what you imagined I said. I never said he invented it. I said he pulled it into the religion. I even clarified that in the post immediately above yours. I can't really help you any more than that.


You are a dumb idiot. And you are still fucking wrong. Your distinction without a difference does not make you less wrong about your gullible idiocy.
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Occluded Sun
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RobbyPants wrote:
Everyone always talks about Jesus like he's this chill guy, and they forget that he put eternal hell into the equation.


Not quite - not eternal hell, no. IIRC the relevant bit involves a metaphor with a garbage dump where trash was burned, or farmers burning weeds they'd removed from the fields.

(There's a lot of agricultural metaphor in the NT.)

The implication is of condemnation and destruction, not unending torture.
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Occluded Sun
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

deaddmwalking wrote:
This is a No True Scotsmen argument and we know that fallacious.
You don't understand the No True Scotsmen fallacy, if you think this is it.

Quote:
You are arguing that Muslims during the golden age of Islam weren't REAL Muslims, and the 99+% of Muslims today aren't REAL Muslims, and only the Jidhadist terrorists REALLY understand the Koran.
The Koran quite clearly states that those who make images will, at the Last Judgment, be commanded by God to make those images come alive, and at their failure to do so will be condemned.

Now, whether those passages are taken literally or merely as a warning for those who create idols is one of those little matters of 'interpretation'. Just as with Christianity, people tend to ignore or reinterpret them, but fundamentalists put a great deal of emphasis on them.

In the Dark Ages, Christianity was composed entirely of fundamentalists by modern standards, and Islam was rich and liberal. In modern times, the branches of Islam that cause most of the problems are the fundamentalist ones, and Christianity has been liberalized almost to the point of non-existence. (So close...!)
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deaddmwalking
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Occluded Sun wrote:
deaddmwalking wrote:
This is a No True Scotsmen argument and we know that fallacious.
You don't understand the No True Scotsmen fallacy, if you think this is it.


All Scotsmen love haggis.

My uncle is Scottish and he hates haggis.

Your uncle isn't a true Scotsman.

......

Islam makes people terrorists.

There was a historical period where Muslims lived in a more peaceful, educated and enlightened society than contemporary Europeans.

THOSE weren't REAL Muslims.



Feel free to explain where I went wrong.


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