[OSSR]MERP

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Ancient History
Serious Badass
Posts: 12708
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:57 pm

[OSSR]MERP

Post by Ancient History »

OSSR: MERP
Based on J.R.R. Tolkien's THE HOBBIT® and THE LORD OF THE RINGS®

Image

AncientH:

Sometimes, you have to go back to the well.

It's difficult to understate the influence of Tolkien on the field of fantasy. It's not that he was a great innovator, except in the sense of actual languages, but there had been plenty of people playing in the fantasy milieu before Tolkien, some of whom did lots of world-building and following - one might say establishing - a lot of the tropes that Tolkien would later use. Folks like Robert E. Howard, Clark Ashton Smith, Lord Dunsany, E. R. Eddison, William Morris, Fritz Leiber, Catherine L. Moore, and contemporaries like Poul Anderson and C. S. Lewis.

But none of them put it all together. None of them put the sheer effort into a single book that Tolkien did, or planned out a three-volume epic like Tolkien did.

So as the seventies died and Tolkien-clone fantasy boomed, and Tolkien's heirs took the reins of the estate, they decided to make it rain...
Image
In Soviet Russia, shit rips you! No seriously, they published unlicensed books sympathetic to the industrial nations of the east.
FrankT:

In the eighties, pretty much all fantasy gaming was by default Tolkien-inspired. So you'd sort of expect that whoever had the official license for Middle Earth stuff would just sort of take over everything. Like, why would people not use the officially licensed Elves and Dwarves game instead of playing bizarre knockoffs that called their Hobbits “Halflings” for legal reasons. And that's a pretty good question honestly. Part of it I think is that Tolkien's estate were a bunch of fractious money grubbing nutcases back in the 70s. Sure, they eventually calmed down enough to make a shit tonne of money with the Peter Jackson movies. But when Gygax was doing his thing Christopher Tolkien didn't exactly sit down to negotiate a mutually beneficial arrangement. So here you have a game that finally can legally call their Hobbits “Hobbits” but it isn't using normal D&D terms, so you end up with a weird authenticity gap. Official D&D used “normal” RPG terms people were familiar with but had to play shell games with their Ent nomenclature, MERP called a Hobbit a Hobbit but the RPG is full of fantasy heartbreaker “technically original” nomenclature and no one was happy.

Middle Earth is of course central to the creation of Iron Crown Enterprises. The guy credited with creating MERP is S . Coleman Charlton, who is also one of the co-founders of ICE. He founded ICE with his D&D homebrew system in 1980, which was originally set in Middle Earth in the home game. That game was Rolemaster when he filed off enough D&D and Middle Earth IP that he could sell it as an independent creation. MERP was something that happened later – after ICE managed to make a licensing agreement with Tolkien's estate, you'd think that they'd be able to take all their Rolemaster research and all their Tolkien wankings and touch penises. You'd think such a scenario would get all the support.

Image

Anyway, MERP never got the kind of support that even third tier D&D settings like Birthright got. Which is weird, but it is what it is. It certainly seemed at the time that if MERP could get its shit together it could become the dominant force in RPGs. After all, people of the time were pretty much playing D&D because they wanted to be a ranger “Like Aragorn.” But it is factually true that MERP never did get its shit together and has never progressed past being an obscure licensed game. That's very strange to me. MERP shouldn't have been comparable in any way to shit like the VOTOMs RPG and the Prince Valiant RPG, but it was and is. I think we're basically looking at the Tolkien Estate not being willing to give the game line the support it needed, and also the MERP designers being a bunch of chucklefucks. In the eighties, a tie-in RPG was the kind of third tier merchandizing that made seasonal marshmallow cereals look legit.

Image

MERP is super short by modern standards. It's 128 pages, and while the pictures are small and the text is tiny and dense, it's still a bit shy of a thousand words per page. It looks like this book is about 110k words to me. And consider that twenty years later after the electronic word processing and typesetting revolution a White Wolf shovelware book would be literally three times that long. Looking back on this, it does seem short. But at the time it did not. This was just the length books were back then.
AncientH:

The key thing about MERP is that it is a licensed RPG, and it is playing in Tolkien's world...but Middle Earth actually isn't a lot like your standard D&D game. The tropes aren't set up for roving bands of adventurers in the same way, and the actual raw material in the source material amounts to The Hobbit, the three-volume Lord of the Rings, and the Silmarillion (which covered a bunch of shit that happened thousands of years ago, and was put into publication shape by Guy Gavriel Kay), the three-volume Unfinished Tales, and when this book was published in 1986 (2nd ed.), Christopher Tolkien was still trawling through his father's drafts for material for the 12-volumes History of Middle Earth commentaries...so, y'know, there was a lot of material about the world and its history, but at the same time there wasn't a lot of the material that a roleplaying game needs. There just weren't enough monsters, enough factions, enough politics, enough fucking magic (or explanation as to how magic works). Plus, Tolkien's legendarium contains some concepts that don't translate well into game terms, and with the possible exception of Bilbo Baggins in The Hobbit, actually lacks anything that might charitably be called character advancement. Characters in Tolkien's world tend to arrive on the scene as badass and competent as they're going to be for the rest of the story, unless they get a deus ex machina power up (Gandalf) or nerf (Saruman).

Image
Before you think about killing trolls, ask yourself: where the fuck is your character from and how did they learn to swing a sword? Tolkien cared about the first part, not so much the second.

It gets worse if you ask about things like money, because Tolkien did not give a tenth of a shit about the economics of Middle Earth. So when you come to designing MERP, you have to start off with a lot of homework, and then you have to fill in all the gaps...without actually contradicting anything in the source material. And remember, the books basically kill all of the big bads, destroys all the really good talismans, and the major NPCs decide to fuck off and leave. What is left for you to adventure for?
FrankT:

Finding things in MERP is somewhat difficult. It's laid out like a set of instructions on the interwebs rather than like a book. This isn't because it's copypasta from an electronic document, but because it was never an electronic anything at any point in production. It's all written by typewriter, so each rule is written separately and numbered. Then when they have a new rule that seems like it should go in between one rule and another, it is assigned a rule number in between those things. That number will likely come after a dot like it was a version number for mid-eighties software.

Image
Paste Up!

So in chapter 2 (which is called “2.0 THE BASIC FACTORS DEFINING A CHARACTER”) we have a rule “2.3” which is “Skill Ranks” and a rule “2.4” which is “Professions.” So to fit the extra rule subheadings for skill rank bonuses, primary skills, and secondary skills, we get “2.31,” “2.32,” and “2.33” respectively. This makes things rather hard to find, but I suppose it beat using a proportional font, doing all page citations in XX notation and then going back and rewriting the whole fucking thing once you figured out where everything was going to be, page wise.

The tables are even more opaque. Each table is named some gibberish like “CGT-1” or “ST-7.” Those are generated from the notations in the author's binder as far as I can tell. Those names stand for “Character Generation Table 1” and “Summary and Strategic Table 7” respectively. Although I honestly can't tell you what the difference between a bonus table, an experience table, a character generation table. and a summary table even is. The language rank table is a CGT, but the languages of Middle Earth table is an ST. Also, these tables are not in order. ST-6 is on page 84 and ST-7 is on page 41. I assume the tables are named in the order they were designed, and then they were inserted into the text where they would fit and be closest to somewhat relevant text. In any case, it is possible to find these tables, because there is a list of all the tables in the table of contents of all the tables. So when you get a table citation you get it in the form “see ET-4” or whatever, and then you flip to the front of the book to find that that means page 17. This is of course because this way the whole book could be completed except for the table of contents and then they could know what the final pages were going to be to make printing proofs.
AncientH:

This actually reminds me a lot of military documents I used to have to read and write in my first job. The thing is, it works great if you're buying documentation by the foot. You stick everything in a three-ring binder, and if you get some errata instead of printing off a new book you just print off "change pages" and change the pointers in the table of contents.

There's seven chapters (which cover all of your RPG basics), two appendices with things you'd have expected about eighty pages early in character creation, a "Sample Game Environment" with some adventure scenarios, and "Miscellaneous Material" for converting MERPS to Rolemaster or Fantasy Hero.

Image
There's an OSSR waiting to happen.
FrankT:

Everything after page 55 in this book is technically some form of appendix or list. Which considering that the book's last page of text is page is on page 126 means that this book is more than half reference and addendums by length. MERP isn't a game that was designed in the modern sense. It's a collection of some guy's D&D house rules that just sort of accumulated until it filled a book.

Image
This is just a thing nerds of the period did. They couldn't post their house rules on the internet, so eventually house rules just sort of became books or got left behind during a move.

The final page of the book is actually a set of suggestions for how to convert Fantasy Hero characters to MERP characters. And after we all sit with our mouth open for a moment wondering what that fucking hell would possess us to do that, until of course we remember that both games were published by Iron Crown at the time, we can allow this completely batshit fact to stand in for how completely fucking random every page's contents are as compared to the page before and after. Even in the second edition it's a whole lot like someone just opened up S. Coleman Charlton's three ring binder of D&D rules and just typed up whatever happened to be there.

I'm not entirely sure how we're gonna arrange this review. The book doesn't progress in a particularly logical order and I'm not entirely convinced the game is complete. Like, the whole thing is a pared down version of Rolemaster stuck end to end with some old pre-Rolemaster D&D houserules. So it seems pretty likely that various portions of the game are actually mind caulked by the creators – shit they left unsaid because it was already in their shared head space from D&D or Rolemaster or some other game. This wouldn't be the first or last time this happened. The most glaring recent example is Scion, of course, a game that was created in the White Wolf oeuvre and never got around to telling you how task resolution worked or what it meant to roll success on 3 dice instead of 2. Presumably the authors all agreed (or thought they agreed) on how things worked, but there's no way to be certain because they never got around to writing that shit down.
AncientH:

I'm going to try and keep an open mind, but my vague experiences of MERP in the past have always been...disappointing. The thing is, the mechanics just never quite match the books, and your Mister Cavern is probably not Guy Gavriel Kay, so they're not going to be Tolkien reincarnated either. There's a limit to how far the creators could push the world development, and they already come to the game in a D&D adventuring mindset rather than a "playing in Tolkien's world" mindset. I know some of the later RPG attempts got more leeway to explore and expand the setting and adapt the premise to something explicable... because that is a major question. What the fuck do you do? Go kill some orcs? You're not supposed to throw down with a Balrog unless you're an angel made flesh Istari. The only explicit wizards and necromancers in the setting were maia. I guess you could go treasure-hunting and kill some giant spiders or something...
Image
Actually, LEGO MERP sounds fun.
Last edited by Ancient History on Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Voss
Prince
Posts: 3912
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Voss »

I'm going to try and keep an open mind, but my vague experiences of MERP in the past have always been...disappointing. The thing is, the mechanics just never quite match the books, and your Mister Cavern is probably not Guy Gavriel Kay, so they're not going to be Tolkien reincarnated either. There's a limit to how far the creators could push the world development,
Yeah... fun times. I ran a MERP game once about... 17 years ago, not with this edition but one of the various updates of MERP/Rolemaster rules. It was a pain in the ass from day one, because no one really wanted to deal with the absolute cluster-fuck that was character generation, and I didn't really have time to come up with much of a plot, so the characters got sent off to rescue the mayor's daughter from some channeler*/ hedge mage she was 'kidnapped' by at the edge of Angmar or something. After the random combat encounters with orcs where various bits went flying according to absurdist critical tables, they got to the tower.

When I pulled the obvious ploy (they were lovers and she wanted out of her shitshow village) when they finally got to her, a player get up and stormed out of the room affronted as to how I have violated Tolkien or some such thing. It was fairly shocking from the player in question, since I'd yet to see any real emotion out of him at all- someone else had been running Vampire for a while and he usually fell asleep during game sessions. But he was quivering with anticipation at char gen, and then threw his hissy fit at the end.

Which was, I think, the main reason this game existed but was never popular. There wasn't anything to do, and if you did do something, fanboys got angry that you did it wrong.


*its one of the magic paths, used by rolemaster because reasons. If AH and Frank actually have reasons for, I'll be amused to hear them (presuming it's in this edition-- I think they wrote up Elrond as one at some point)
Last edited by Voss on Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Harshax
Knight
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:12 pm
Location: Chicago, USA

Post by Harshax »

Voss wrote:There wasn't anything to do, and if you did do something, fanboys got angry that you did it wrong.
I'm sure I'm not the only one to have had a similar experience with Stormbringer/Elric and Conan. I've read something somewhere likening the experiencing of playing in these worlds to being invited to look BUT DON'T EVEN FUCKING TOUCH someone's prized figurine collection. Or worse: no matter what you did with the material, someone in the group was obsessive about putting everything back exactly as (the authors) left it.
TheFlatline
Prince
Posts: 2606
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:43 pm

Post by TheFlatline »

Oh man Chartmaster System!

I think we tried to play MERP *once*. It didn't go well. In fact it went terrible.

I loved me some Middle Earth, and that's what sold me on this. I didn't learn that a beloved fiction setting doesn't necessarily make for a great RPG setting. This is obvious because I bought Wheel of Time D20 years later.

I think WoT finally learned me though.
User avatar
hogarth
Prince
Posts: 4582
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 1:00 pm
Location: Toronto

Post by hogarth »

The final page of the book is actually a set of suggestions for how to convert Fantasy Hero characters to MERP characters. And after we all sit with our mouth open for a moment wondering what that fucking hell would possess us to do that, until of course we remember that both games were published by Iron Crown at the time, we can allow this completely batshit fact to stand in for how completely fucking random every page's contents are as compared to the page before and after.
I think you're misunderestimating the popularity of conversion notes in ye olde days. For instance, I can think of several Champions modules that also have stats for the Superworld RPG. Likewise for adventures dual-statted for Espionage! and Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes.

Of course, the most shameless internal promotion was having conversion rules for Boot Hill and Gamma World in the AD&D DMG. Gamma World I sort of get (since the system was basically a D&D variation anyways), but Boot Hill?
Last edited by hogarth on Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
GâtFromKI
Knight-Baron
Posts: 513
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:14 am

Post by GâtFromKI »

Voss wrote:Which was, I think, the main reason this game existed but was never popular. There wasn't anything to do, and if you did do something, fanboys got angry that you did it wrong.
That, and rolemaster was an awful system to begin with.

I have played several game of MERP; each time with a different and very motivated MC. I have never finished any fight in MERP - each time, it was so long and boring and demanded to consult so many strange tables that the first session ended mid-combat, and then nobody wanted to play again to finish the adventure.

D&D or WarHammer FRPG or several other systems are byzantine but fun. Rolemaster isn't.
Last edited by GâtFromKI on Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
OgreBattle
King
Posts: 6820
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:33 am

Post by OgreBattle »

Curious to see what magic is like in this system as nobody was hurling fireballs or seizure rainbows in Tolkien books
User avatar
angelfromanotherpin
Overlord
Posts: 9745
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

I recall magic was weirdly D&D, except with Power Points instead of spell slots. The example of play involves a levitation spell that's much more at home in D&D than in LotR. Also, their adaptations of the source material were frequently wtfomgbbq. Like, when Aragorn got statted up, his heirloom ring (which is explicitly non-magical in the text) is written as a 70th-level ring of Dragon-warding that also sextuples his Power Points. I don't even.
CapnTthePirateG
Duke
Posts: 1545
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:07 am

Post by CapnTthePirateG »

You CAN be a non-maia necromancer/wizard in Tolkien IIRC, but you need to be a Black Numenorean (Mouth of Sauron) or elf-lord.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you don't get to play those.
OgreBattle wrote:"And thus the denizens learned that hating Shadzar was the only thing they had in common, and with him gone they turned their venom upon each other"
-Sarpadian Empires, vol. I
Image
Harshax
Knight
Posts: 393
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:12 pm
Location: Chicago, USA

Post by Harshax »

I remember RoleMaster magic being separated by thematic spell lists with 1 spell per level from 1 to 50. (Yes 50th level spells) These lists were group by source of power: Essence, Mentalism, and Channeling. E.g.: wizards, monks or psychics, and priests. I don't recall MERP spelling it out that way, but the lists were taken directly from RoleMaster and each spellcasting class had access to several lists. Elemental magic (essence) was as vulgar (fireball, lightning bolt) as D&D. IIRC, MERP limited spell lists to 10th level which I think kept spells like resurrection out of the player's hands, but there wasn't a single effort to make the RoleMaster magic system thematically appropriate for ME.

Granted ... that's really hard to do. There's only a handful of spells that ever get illustrated by Tolkien: animal messenger, fireseed, light, flashing light? It's no wonder Cubicle 7 dropped extensive magic systems in favor of something far more subtle. Later editions of Stormbringer did much the same for exactly the same reason - there just isn't a lot of lore supporting wizard schools and huge inventories of spell effects in either of those settings.

I also remember extensive healing spells that cured sprains, bleeding, concussions, and broken bones. These types of injuries only showed up on the critical hit tables, but there wasn't any explicit game effect from suffering from a broken arm. Like there was a spell list for healing bones. Another one for dealing with blood injuries. a third for curing hit points. A spell caster was suppose to invest their build points in many spell lists to round out their abilities.
Last edited by Harshax on Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Ancient History
Serious Badass
Posts: 12708
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:57 pm

Post by Ancient History »

Middle Earth Role Playing
Roleplaying in Tolkien's World

Most of the people involved in this project has a “catchphrase” in the credits page. So you get Nancy “The California Cranberry” Cranwell. And Rick “What's a MERP?” Britton.

Image
MERP
Merriam Webster wrote:'Merp' is a word for when you really don't know what to say. It's especially useful in situations which are awkward or disappointing in some way.
Perhaps not the best choice of acronym.
AncientH:

MERP is an acronym-game, like GURPS (Generic Universal Roleplaying System) and TORG (The Other Roleplaying Game). It was a very 80s thing.

It should be emphasized that despite being an officially licensed product, MERP contains, as far as I can tell, zero actual art from any of the published books of Tolkien's material. Which includes the animated film, the shitty tabletop game based on the animated film, and the comic book. I mean, some of the really badly black-and-white illustrations might be shitty reproductions of actual Hobbit art, but not from any edition of the book I recognize. This seems like a mistake because, well, have the benefit of a licensed game is repurposing high-quality and familiar artwork, but also because art budgets were minimal at this point and what we have is pretty generic D&D-level shit.
FrankT:

MERP wrote:The Middle-earth Role Playing system (MERP) is designed to introduce people to fantasy role playing (FRP) in J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth. It is suitable for those who have never before played a fantasy role playing game, as well as more experienced gamers who are looking for a realistic, easy to play fantasy role playing (FRP) system designed for relatively low level adventures (1st-10th levels).
That's how this book begins, and this is one of those “spot the problems” type puzzles. Can you spot the five things in those two sentences that foretell with perfect clarity that you're watching a trainwreck unfold? Yes, there's obvious shit like how the author doesn't seem to understand that you don't introduce the same abbreviation twice in the same paragraph, or that “realism” is a shit goal for a licensed game to have, when it should obviously be striving for “genre emulation” which is most emphatically not the same thing. Or that every time someone makes a low level setting they are really just talking about a setting that is disempowering to players. But really the bottom fucking line is that this game isn't Dungeons and Dragons. So when they talk about “1st level” or “10th level” that only means anything to anybody relative to an unstated standard.

This game is a hack of a hack of a hack of Dungeons & Dragons. And the writers have crawled so far up their own assholes that they no longer remember what terminology is and is not specific technical jargon that is completely incomprehensible to people outside their clique. Which in turn wouldn't be the end of the world if we were just talking about a D&D patch intended to be read and used by D&D nerds. But we're not. At least, not exactly. This isn't an “RPG” it's a “FRP system.” The fundamental jargon has been IP scrubbed and made unique, but it's still passed off as if these are normal English words, which they most emphatically are not.

Image

Does it mean something that the authors are intending us to be Fantasy Role Playing rather than playing a Role Playing Game? I dunno. It certainly meant something when White Wolf announced that they were making “Story Telling Games” rather than “Role Playing Games.” That kind of fundamental nomenclature shift should be accompanied by a philosophical statement of position. But here it is not. I have no idea how many of these terms are distinct because the designer genuinely wanted to go in a different direction from Gygax, and how many are different just because he had a thesaurus on hand and wanted to protect himself from TSR litigation. And because the book is steadfastly determined to never directly mention the big D&Dog, there's honestly no way to tell which is which.

Image
Pretentiousness run amok is never a bad guess about such things.
AncientH:

To be fair, a lot of games in the 80s did this. Nobody was quite clear on where the lines were as far as game terminology - you remember when Wizards of the Coast patented basic game mechanics? TSR wasn't quite that bad, but whenever there's money to be had, there will be litigation. So plenty of games took the same basic format of D&D and scrubbed the names and thumbed the thesauruses and couched things in jargon-y terms until they seemed unique and original enough that people wouldn't automatically sue.

Image
I'd tap that.

MERP was also an American production, presumably because that's where the majority of the RPG market was, but it had a fairly substantial British fanbase (and probably Canadian, Austrialian, etc.) too; MERP featured heavily in the early, RPG-related issues of White Dwarf, sometimes paired up with Call of Cthulhu - no seriously, one of the earliest scenarios was written as dual-stat for MERP/CoC. If that sounds insane and you can't quite figure out why or how that's supposed to work...well, one year I'll dig out the issue and OSSR it. I wouldn't want to run it, even as a forum game.

My point is, this is an almost quintessentially British product as adapted by Americans. With all the usual warnings that implies.

Image
Some people will laugh; others will need an explanation.
FrankT:

MERP's concept of a Fantasy Role Playing Game is one which is like a novel but the main characters are played by the players. That's not wrong exactly, but there isn't a lot of insight there. We get the high points about how there are dice rolled to determine the results of actions and the players are intended to be in-character as their chess pieces, but we don't quite bring the hammer down and level with the GM that their carefully imagine LotR fanfic is going to go off the rails immediately when the players start declaring their actions. Given the subject matter of the game and the fact that it is a game with multiple players, this is actually a really big deal.

Image

I don't know what the author thinks the GM is supposed to do in this FRP when one of the PCs kills the big G. But considering the utter implausibility of that (or something like that) not happening within the first couple of adventures, this book basically fails to tell me how the game is supposed to work after the first couple of actions. I've never even heard of a MERP game that didn't rapidly degenerate into acrimony, and I can't help but think this is a big part of why.
AncientH:

There's a generic "What Is Roleplaying?" spiel, which at this point I think my left hand could randomly write after I was comatose and technically brain dead. It ends with the rather generic:
Finally, a fantasy role playing game geals with adventure, magic, action, danger, combat, reasure, heroes, villains, life and death. In short, in a FRP game the players leave the real world behind for a while, and enter a world where the fantastic is real and reality is limited only by the imagination of the Gamemaster and the players themselves.
You might have noticed that none of that speaks directly to...well, role-playing in Middle-Earth. The problem is, by the time MERP rolled around there were more than a dozen games that let you play an elf. They crucial context of the game was that you could play in Middle Earth, interact with Tolkien's world, be the heroes of the stories and books that he didn't write. Have a beer with Elrond, stab Sauron in the dick, all that kind of thing. Unfortunately, they either had real trouble realizing that or they had difficulty selling it...and they desperately needed to sell it.
FrankT:

You can be an Elf, or a Hobbit, or a Man, or even an Orc
Image
He's just mad they forgot Dwarves.

Now, props where props are due: you can play an Orc in this game. That's progress! But on the other hand, the game continues to use Tolkien's oeuvre of calling “humans” “Men.” That was something you could totes get away with in the 1940s. Even when Star Trek the Original Series went there, it was already kind of sketchy. In the 1980s that construction is simply sexist, and obviously so. You have no fucking excuse to write that shit down in 1986. Some woman is going to slap you in the face, and she will be right to do so.

Image
This was a construction that was being deprecated in nineteen sixty six. You have no fucking excuse in nineteen eighty six.

Anyway, they walk back all that shit about playing Orcs back pretty hard. There are stats for playing one, but they are “not normally allowed” and you can't be one if you are rolling your race on the character race table. Yes, there's a chart you're supposed to roll on to determine what Race you play. This is because the races in Middle-earth are not remotely balanced. But it's mostly because MERP comes solidly from the “weird ass tables” school of game design, and there is no attempt at any level to make any of this shit “balanced” in the modern sense of the term.

Image
Anything Role Master derived has too many charts, which in turn are too fiddly and full of weird shit.
Factors affecting a character's appearance include height, weight, age, hair color, eye color, demeanor, etc. These characteristics and their significance are described in Section 2.21 for each race (and culture). The Gamemaster must decide whether to assign these characteristics or whether the players may choose the characteristics within the limits given in the race descriptions.
I am incapable of exaggerating how disempowering this fucking game is for the players. The ability to choose your character's hair color is an optional fucking rule!
AncientH:

This actually was de rigueur for a period. Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay did it too. A large part of D&D and AD&D involved "rolling a character" that went way beyond 3d6 six times for stats. The sad thing is, the only game I can think of that compares to MERP in exact details as far as level of rolling up a character is fucking Hackmaster...and that was a deliberate jump-the-shark parody of this exact kind of game.

Image

Player agency really took a long time to develop. We haven't really talked about it a lot, but the way that Shadowrun allowed you to choose skills and assign points and shit was quite literally gamechanging when compared to AD&D 2nd ed. Some players, it was true, were daunted by the number of options - especially equipment options - and still were several editions later. There's a real discussion to be had (and we've had them on the Den, especially about level-appropriate etc. in D&D3) about the balance point between player agency in character creation and game balance - because, of course, you can't really stop players from making bad decisions, and there's a fair amount of variability even within levels - but some options are always clearly better than others. We might pick that up at some point, but it's hard to apply this kind of high-level discussion to MERP because it is, really, very primitive.
FrankT:

This is a setting ideally suited to heroic drama. It beckons brave, inquisitive, adventerous souls to undertake quests of fame or fortune, or to endeavor to rescue unfortunate souls from the heinous grip of omnipresent Shadow.
Yes, “Shadow” is capitalized. Because reasons.

The thing is this isn't exactly wrong. Middle-earth is ideally suited to heroic drama. It is a setting that was written for the express purpose of housing some heroic drama, and it does so tolerably well. But those stories have been told. All the parts of Middle-earth that people give a shit about have already been saved by heroes who are not you. There are probably dragons to slay and villages to save elsewhere, but Laketown is saved by Bard, and you don't get to play Bard.

This leaves the question of what the hell you are supposed to do in this game pretty wide open. It talks about how you could fight the Black Riders, but I'm pretty sure the Black Riders are pretty much accounted for. There's a lot less of a head space for characters to be going off and doing important things than there is in, say Star Trek. Both because of the lack of a serial, and because there is explicitly one major quest that anyone cares about and you are not in it.

Image
You are basically Sir Not Appearing In This Tale
AncientH:

Later supplements and editions emphasized playing in previous eras before the events of the book, so that you could oppose Sauron's servants and Make A Difference, and took the opportunity to expand on some bits that Tolkien didn't address much in the book, like Angmar (you do remember the Witch-King of Angmar, right?)

Image
*slurp*

And there are always barrow-wights and lesser magic rings to run down, Easterlings and pirates, giant spiders and drakes, werewolves and vampires (yes, really, read the Silmarillion). So it's not like there isn't room for some adventures in Middle Earth - but the specific crux of adventures that is the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit books just isn't on the table. That's a common problem with a lot of licensed products: the focus of the narrative is on characters who are not the player characters.

Now, there are ways around this - but it requires thinking outside the box, and you sort of have to sell it ahead of time. For example, you could have an alternate world where Frodo is killed before the Fellowship of the Ring is founded, and the PCs are recruited by Gandalf and Elrond as option B (or option A-Team, if you prefer): get the Ring back and finish the quest. That's exciting, but it requires veering pretty stringently from canon, to cast the PCs as the actual heroes - and it works better as a one-shot campaign rather than an ongoing game.

Alternately, you keep the events of the books as they are, but you instill the PCs with missions of their own - under the direction of one of the Blue Wizards (or maybe Radagast), they need to foil several of Sauron's other plans, like a Nazgul sent to raise an army of barrow-wights or to uncover and defeat an Black Numenorean cult in Gondor. That gives up a certain amount of D&D-ish agency - no meeting strange men with job offers in taverns for you! - but it at least makes you part of the sweeping epic.

But of course, they weren't doing that. They were making a D&D clone.

Image
I was there when the strength of men failed...Mr. Anderson.
FrankT:

So there's an example of play. It involves four characters (Elf Mage, Human Cleric, Dwarf Fighter, Hobbit Thief, as you do), and they go fight some Orcs in a ruined tower. And this is, I must very explicitly state, for absolutely no reason. Their mission is to take a wine shipment from point A to point B, but there's a ruined tower kind of over there, so they drop into combat time to go explore it. And we know it's an action scene so the Mage starts casting buff spells and shit.

Image
Cast it at the darkness!

The first thing is that we are forced to ask ourselves why the fuckity fucksticks our basic party is the basic party from D&D. That question answers itself. It's the basic party from D&D because this entire game is ultimately a D&D hack and figuring out a way to create groups of player characters that feel “Middle-earthish” was not a thing that these guys spent any brainpower on at all. We get the basic White Mage, Black Mage, Fighter, Thief party, and the only innovation here is that Fighters are called Warriors, Thieves are called Scouts, and Clerics are called Animists. But just in case you hadn't realized that was going on, they go ahead and remind you what the D&D classes are called in the Profession list. I'm not even kidding.
Animist (Cleric)
Image
I have so much rage right now.

So Tolkien had an elaborate magical physics thing going on, where he had magia and goeteia as the two principle magics that humans and elves could tap into. Which could be a thing. You could totally read a whole lot of Tolkien and gibber on about the ancient Goeteias of the Elves and why sending people to sleep that way is noble and pure and natural while using magical spells is all decadent and worldly and shit. It would probably be a bit silly, because Tolkien's anti-modernity rants have not aged well since the invention of the Polio vaccine, but it would be authentic. This... this is gobbledegook. This is warmed over D&D tropes. Why the shitfuck are we told that it is very difficult for a Mage to use a sword? Every single person, Man or Elf, in the Lord of the Rings who casts a spell at any point is also seen with a fucking sword. Except maybe Galadriel. “Because Gygax did it” is not a good enough reason when you are making a nominally stand alone game that is based on the works of Tolkien. It just fucking isn't.
AncientH:

Also, I'd like to point out:
Naug Zigildun, a Dwarven Warrior of unrevealed gender (to any, female Dwarves appear to be male).
I can't really give a fuck to give my dwarf speech right now, so I'm going to do the picture-is-worth-a-thousand-words thing:

Image
Image

Here's the thing: there are no female dwarves in Tolkien's world. I'm not saying that dwarf-wives aren't hiding in some dark corner of the Silmarillion or his letters or the History of Middle-Earth books all of which are on my shelf, but Tolkien didn't include any female dwarfs on the page in The Hobbit or Lord of the Rings. Because Tolkien grew up in the early 20th century and was kinda sexist in the way that was probably mostly unconscious. He just didn't think about having female dwarf adventurers.

Image
This led to a longstanding D&D argument which somehow made its way into the actual goddamn films.

I'm not bitching at MERP for this. They knew not what they did. Well, actually, they knew exactly what they were doing, but they didn't look back and see that the whole female dwarf thing was bizarre and stupid, they just perpetuated it.
FrankT:

The example of play is excruciating. Asking players what they do round by round while they are poking around empty rooms and haven't spotted the Orcs yet is fucking insane. Don't do that. Don't do that in D&D, don't do that at all. Characters are fucking rolling maneuver rolls and shit with no enemies on the board. What the hell? If you find yourself writing something that asinine in your example of play, you need to rethink your life.
”I remain ready to fire.”
Image
Agonar rolls a 68 attack, the Orc rolls a 17 Resistance Roll and goes to sleep. Chinta Kari drops but would not have avoided the Orc's attack if Agonar had not put him to sleep. Naug follows through on his attack on the now sleeping Orc and gives him 40 hits, an “E” Slash critical and a “C” Crush critical, resulting in an unconscious Orc with a broken leg. The Orc and the chest fall on Chinta Kari giving her 5 hits and an “A” Unbalance critical, which gives her 4 more hits and stuns her for 1 round.


I genuinely don't even understand how you could write that and not immediately admit that your game system is shit and needs a radical overhaul. There is no excuse possible for your game system to have that fiddly of a set of outputs under any circumstances.

AncientH:


Critical hit charts were very popular. Realism!

Image

The only good thing I can say about this scenario is that it has a map - not of the keep itself, but of the surroundings - and it is a hand-drawn map with hand-drawn and hand-lettered contour lines. That's. Um. I don't know why you would do that, to be honest.

FrankT:


MERP uses only d10s, which is a valid life choice. It wants you to roll 1-5 rolls by rolling a d10 and dividing the result by 2, and also 5-50 rolls by rolling five d10s and adding the results. This is not a valid life choice. You should never in your life roll 5d10 and sum the results.

There is then a glossary, which chooses to define fucking random shit. There is an entry for “Chance,” which tells you that when they use the term they are using it in its normal English definition that if something has a chance of happening then it may or may not happen. Also “Wild Beasts” which tells you that they are using the term to mean normal animals. Who thought we needed glossary entries for this shit?

The majority of unique terms found in the Middle-earth Role Playing system and Tolkien's works are not described below; rather they are usually described when they are used in the text.


I understand that electronic document searching was not a thing in 1986, but come on! This is the second edition. Someone could have gone through with a pink highlighter pen and noted all the funky fresh words they used.

AncientH:


If you want to get picky, the dice are actually supposed to be d20s that are numbered 0-9 twice. Because decahedrons were not always a thing. But they're effectively d10s. Most of the rolls are "open-ended," which means pseudo-percentile: you roll two d20s d10s and one die is the tens and one die is the ones, giving you rolls between 00 and 99 (they call it 01 and 100, but that isn't actually an option, so...fuck it). It's pseudo-percentile because with modifiers you can go below 01 and above 99, so they added extra fiddly rules for confirming the crit/s] exploding dice.

Image
I like my dice like I like my women: unpainted, and worn around the edges.

FrankT:


Next up: Character Generation!
User avatar
erik
King
Posts: 5862
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by erik »

CapnTthePirateG wrote:You CAN be a non-maia necromancer/wizard in Tolkien IIRC, but you need to be a Black Numenorean (Mouth of Sauron) or elf-lord.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you don't get to play those.
Wrong. Noldor Elves are the shit, and you should totally be one. You can play as Olog-Hai, Uruk-Hai along with other various orc and troll types, one of four different superior elf types, dwarves, hobbits, or one of like a dozen or more humans, including Black Numenoreans.

If you want to cast spells then I think you are best off being an elf, obviously, and of the races of men, "Urban" humans were the best for getting a spell list.

When they do the next section you are going to see how hilariously bullshit character creation is, but one of the things I liked about MERPS was that you could totally cast spells. Heck, I played a MMORPG on AOL way back in the day, Gemstone, whose mechanics were based upon MERPS, and I liked that I could play a rogue who could learn spells, just like in MERPS. The manner in which you get spell lists is stupid, and random, but you can indeed get them.

I ran and played a few adventures of MERPS back in highschool. Combat was a bit of a cluster fuck, but I liked character creation since there were lots of interesting options. If you house rule away the randomness then that's a big improvement.
Last edited by erik on Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
hogarth
Prince
Posts: 4582
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 1:00 pm
Location: Toronto

Post by hogarth »

Agonar rolls a 68 attack, the Orc rolls a 17 Resistance Roll and goes to sleep. Chinta Kari drops but would not have avoided the Orc's attack if Agonar had not put him to sleep. Naug follows through on his attack on the now sleeping Orc and gives him 40 hits, an “E” Slash critical and a “C” Crush critical, resulting in an unconscious Orc with a broken leg. The Orc and the chest fall on Chinta Kari giving her 5 hits and an “A” Unbalance critical, which gives her 4 more hits and stuns her for 1 round.
I got way too much fun out of reading that. That is hilariously awful.
Voss
Prince
Posts: 3912
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Voss »

When they do the next section you are going to see how hilariously bullshit character creation is,
I'm waiting for an awful lot of rants about character creation. 'Men' isn't the only anachronistic construct for the 80s. That thing about races not being remotely balanced? We should see more on that.
GâtFromKI
Knight-Baron
Posts: 513
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:14 am

Post by GâtFromKI »

OgreBattle wrote:Curious to see what magic is like in this system as nobody was hurling fireballs or seizure rainbows in Tolkien books
Magic is rolemaster's magic.

You have to understand a thing: MERP isn't designed to play in Middle Earth. ICE had a game, rolemaster, and they negotiated a license to use LotR material. Nobody asked if rolemaster was good at emulating LotR: ME was only a way to sell a rolemaster hack.


As an example, MERP contains two flavor of spellcasters: the non-cleric who wears armor and heals and the non-wizard who can't wear armor and hurls fireball. Because the inspiration is totally LotR and not D&D.

hogarth wrote:
Agonar rolls a 68 attack, the Orc rolls a 17 Resistance Roll and goes to sleep. Chinta Kari drops but would not have avoided the Orc's attack if Agonar had not put him to sleep. Naug follows through on his attack on the now sleeping Orc and gives him 40 hits, an “E” Slash critical and a “C” Crush critical, resulting in an unconscious Orc with a broken leg. The Orc and the chest fall on Chinta Kari giving her 5 hits and an “A” Unbalance critical, which gives her 4 more hits and stuns her for 1 round.
I got way too much fun out of reading that. That is hilariously awful.
You have to remember, this is made to emulate LotR. I guess it emulate the part where Aragorn heroically breaks the leg of an unconscious orc.

That's a funny game: take any example of play from MERP, replace the pseudo-fantasy names by the names of actual characters from LotR, and see if it fits. Hilarity ensues.
Last edited by GâtFromKI on Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
talozin
Knight-Baron
Posts: 528
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:08 pm
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Post by talozin »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:Also, their adaptations of the source material were frequently wtfomgbbq.
This needs to be underlined. Then it needs to be hilited. Then it needs to be underlined a few more times, possibly in neon colors, and then with some exclamation points and question marks and whatever else you can think of to emphasize it.

Because MERP went off the rails hard when it came to feeling like Middle-Earth. Some of the stuff that was closely detailed in the trilogy came out sort of OK, but they were willing to publish a lot of extremely sketchy stuff. One infamous supplement has a whole clan of feuding elves that rips off the Chronicles of Amber so hard I am genuinely surprised that Roger Zelazny didn't end up owning Iron Crown Enterprises lock, stock, and elven wine barrel.

Which I think is exactly why the game never went anywhere. See, as Frank and AH point out, MERP was coming out in an era where Dungeons and Dragons was already well-established, and where a bunch of other games were at least sort of well-established. What MERP had to sell over any of these better established games was pretty much entirely "provide a version of Tolkien to run an RPG in, that captures the feel of actual Tolkien." And, to put it mildly, they failed at this. They failed catastrophically. They failed harder than, to pick the first example that springs to mind, White Wolf failed at making "being a vampire" seem horrifying rather than awesome. It is difficult to capture, without reproducing large swathes of MERP supplements, just how badly they failed.

MERP is less true to the feel of Tolkien's work than "Xena: Warrior Princess" is to the original Greek myths. And since being true to the feel of Tolkien's work was pretty much the only reason anyone would have bought it, not a whole lot of people did.
Last edited by talozin on Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TheFlatline wrote:This is like arguing that blowjobs have to be terrible, pain-inflicting endeavors so that when you get a chick who *doesn't* draw blood everyone can high-five and feel good about it.
User avatar
Ancient History
Serious Badass
Posts: 12708
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:57 pm

Post by Ancient History »

OSSR: MERP
2.0 The Basic Factors Defining a Character

Image
What indeed?
AncientH:

MERP is a role playing system designed to handle (simulate) characters between 1st and 10th level.
This is MERP character generation in a nutshell. It doesn't explain levels before saying that it goes up to 10th level. That only makes sense if you already live in a world with levels. It's like saying you're a Six Sigma Black Belt. That only works as a ranking if you know what a black belt is - and if you know what a black belt is, you realize it is not a ranking that is normally associated with business management or associated fuckery. So it is with MERP. This is chargen written by somebody that already knew what chargen was, but was unable to explain it to other people, and unable to take the perspective to see that that what they were trying to get across only made sense to people that already knew what the fuck they were doing...and maybe not even then.
FrankT:

The character generation system is presented upside down, inside out, and backwards. While it is perhaps unsurprising that the game spends some time telling you what things appear on your character sheet before it gets to telling you how to build a character, I think we can all agree that it's patently ridiculous that it tells you how many kill XP you get for landing the killing blow on a fifth level opponent while you are fourth level before it tells you what you get for being level 1. But while we're at it, the game also wants to give you 5 XP every time you pass a maneuver test. You need 10,000 XP to go up a level, so this is unlikely to matter, but why?! You find yourself yelling that at this book a lot.
The stats are numbers between 1 and 102 that represent the physical and mental capabilities of the character (see Section 2.1).
Image

Yes. The stats got to one hundred and two. It's pretty much impossible to parody this game. Just quoting it verbatim sounds to the modern ear like artless parody of how fiddly and ill-fitting the numbers were in 1980s games. Bizarrely, the writers seem concerned that you might not have enough charts to roll on and suggest that you can go grab Rolemaster books and integrate moar tables into your game on the fly despite the absolute lack of explicit chart references and page citations between the games. I have no idea how that would work, but I would bet money the answer is “very poorly”

There's a universal stat bonus table, almost like in 3rd edition D&D. That is to say that if you have one stat at value X and another stat at value X, they will provide the same bonus. That is a genuine advance over AD&D of the time. I am all out of praise though, because the bonus table is insane – with no change at all for 50 points and then the bonus bands are 15, 5, 3, 2, 1, 1, 1 units wide in one direction and 15, 5, 2, 1, 1 in the other direction. I mean, what? Those aren't even standard deviations or something mathematically clever. It's not even symmetrical. I just don't even know what the hell this is supposed to accomplish other than be something you have to look up every single time.

I also don't really know what the stats do. Here's Strength:
STRENGTH (ST): Not brute musculature, but the ability to use your muscles to your greatest advantage. This stat affects a character's capabilities in melee combat, carrying loads, and other activities requiring strength. This is the prime stat for a Warrior.
I consider Strength to be the easiest stat to define in a game. It's the only attribute RPGs try to work with which we can and do unambiguously quantify in the real world. And yet even in this extremely trivial task MERP comes up short. I think it's the part where they begin the description part way through an argument about whether having a higher strength score makes you buffed out like a professional wrestler or not rather than by telling you what it actually does. It shouldn't surprise you that the writeup for Intuition is unparseable gibberish.
INTUITION (IT): The relationship of the character to the all-pervading force in nature (the Ainulindale, the Song which created and shaped Arda) and things supernatural, including such phenomenon as wisdom, luck, genius, and the favor of the Valar. This stat affects the character's capacity to cast spells, use magic items, perceive things (e.g., traps), and to perform a variety of other activities. This is the prime stat for an Animist.
What the fuck? A variety of other activities? It's like they didn't even try.
AncientH:

It bears reminded that if your primary attraction to all things Tolkien is a well-thumbed copy of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, you will not fucking understand what is going on in this book.
Image
Required reading.

The thing is, most of the actual backstory to Tolkien's world isn't contained in his novels. Not even the weird linguistics texts that make up the back third or so of LOTR. Because all of the actual history and mythology of the setting is in the Silmarillion and, more likely, Tolkien's miscellaneous fucking notes on everything from Beowulf and the Eddas to Smith of Wooton Major.

Image

So this book starts out throwing around shit like Ainulindale, and no one knows about that if they've only read The Hobbit. This book should have been set up like crack for ten-year olds.

Image

But that is not going to happen. You cannot get through three paragraphs in this book before running into a concept that basically requires a goddamn tome to explain.
Image
I would also like to point out that today, being a nerd can get you laid. This is the exact opposite of what things were like when I was growing up.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled rant about character generation tables, already in progress.
FrankT:

So you roll your stats on d100, but you reroll stats under 20, which is a whole lot like rolling a d80 – which is completely possible to do with a d20 and a d4 if for some reason you wanted to, which you do not. You assign them in any order you want, except that Elves have to assign one of their highest stats to Charisma Presence because they are better than you.
Thus it is often a good idea to assign your lowest stat to the prime stat.
I understand how they got there, but I now want to stab a corkscrew into my brain so that I no longer have that information. This is just one of those sentences which, once having written it, the designer should have just torched the project and started over from scratch. There is a sentence like that on pretty much every page until we get to the inscrutable tables that do not have sentences.

Image

What that's about is that you are allowed to stat replace your prime stat with a 90, which is a good but not amazingly good number. So most characters will be able to write off a shit number and have a 90 in their prime stat. But get this: slightly more than half of the characters will have a stat over 90, which will therefore not be their prime stat. A majority of characters have their prime stat as their second highest stat. This is why Warriors have higher Agility than Strength and why Thieves have higher Strength than Agility. That stat replacement thing happens after race is chosen, so as far as I can tell it is self defeating to be a race that specializes in your prime stat. Hobbits should all be Warriors, because it lets them bury their racial Strength penalty. Arrgh! Or... maybe not, because the example text appears to say that the racial bonuses are bonuses to the bonuses and not to the stat as described in the text. And... I just don't even know. Arrrgh.
AncientH:

There's a list of races. Quite literally, just a list of races. They're separated into "Mannish" and "Non-Mannish", which means that Beornings, Black Numenoreans, and Woses are Mannish options, along with such exotic flavors as Rural Men and Urban Men, while Non-Mannish options include Dwarves and Umli*; Half-Elves**, Noldor Elves, Sindar Elves, and Silvan Elves; Hobbits***; Common Orcs, Uruk Hai, and Half-Orcs; and Normal Trolls, Olog-Hai, and Half-Trolls. There's actually a lot more fucking Mannish races, but I can't be arsed to write them all out.

* Umli are "petty dwarves." They are not noticeably different from other dwarves, except that the elves used to hunt them like they were the British exterminating Australian native peoples. Also, they're pretty definitely extinct by the end of the Simarillion, so wtf?

** Technically, Elrond is a half-elf and all descendants of half-elves get to choose whether they pick their elf-side or human-side. Elrond's brother went Team Human, and Aragorn his is descendant (making him Elrond's great-great-umpteenth nephew). Also, there aren't supposed to be any more goddamn half-elves after the end of the Third Age, so wtf again.

*** Noticeably absent are Tallfellow and Stout hobbits. I mean fuck, even Gygax stuck those fuckers in the Monstrous Manual.

They don't tell you what the racial modifiers are, but there's a pointer to a table. Of course.

There's some ancient D&D DNA working its way to the surface in the Comeliness Appearance stat, as well as something called Demeanor. Demeanor does nothing, it's just a one-word descriptor of how the character acts with the world. Like this was a White Wolf game, except you don't get any points for actually roleplaying that.

Also, I want to quote this section in full:
Physical Appearance Factors Factors such as heigh, weight, hair color, eye color, gender, age, and so on should be determined by the Gamemaster and the players. They should still be limited by the ranges given in the racial descriptions in Section 2.21.
That last sentence is a lie. There are no racial descriptions in Section 2.21. You can quickly verify this because it is three goddamn paragraphs up on the same fucking page, and consists entirely on a list of Mannish and Non-Mannish races, and pointer to a table somewhere in a fucking appendix. If you're being generous, you could say that they meant to just point to the appendix where the descriptions are...so why the fuck didn't they.

Image
FrankT:

You get adolescence skills based on your race or culture. This includes rolling a chance to get a spell list, which you won't actually know which spell list you get until later because you haven't chosen a class yet and the spell list you learn before you get a class has to be one of the ones your future profession allows you to learn? Got it? Fuck! The skill ranks you get are translated into bonuses at the rate of 5 for 1 for most but not all skills, and being a member of any culture is going to give you tiny bonuses in a bunch of weapon skills, which is a giant waste of space because there has never been a MERP character that uses more than three weapons and being a Dorwinian gives you minimal training in four. Write that shit down!

Wait, did I just say weapon skills? Why yes, it is arbitrarily a different skill to hit people with an ax than it is to hit them with a war hammer. It's not that the game has a lot of skills. It's just that skills it does have are incredibly redundant both conceptually and mechanically. Why do we need a separate set of skill ranks to measure our proficiency with a polearm and our proficiency with a two handed weapon? What circumstance would arise when it would be important to distinguish those? Why is there an “Ambush” skill that is different from “Stalk/Hide?” Can't we just make a Stalk check to get backstab bonuses? Is that really too much to ask?

Yeah, and you have a “moving and maneuvering” skill that you roll to position yourself in combat every fucking round. And get this: you have a different maneuver skill for each armor type. And yes, they are independent. Hard core warriors are basically helpless if you dress them in soft leather.

Image
Not because light armor is terribly restrictive in this game, but because only idiots invest skill ranks in maneuver skills for things other than their heaviest armor and “no armor”.
AncientH:

You get a -25 "bonus" if your skill rank is 0, so it's actually in your favor to buy at least 1 rank in any skill you might actually want to use at any point, if only because 1 rank gives you a +5 bonus.

I shall now put on my nerd hat.

Image

The magical skills include "Read Runes." This apparently covers all runic systems in Middle Earth, past and present. That whirring sound you hear is Tolkien's corpse rotating in its grave. The British have been using it to power the national grid since 1987.
Image
This is only the beginning.
Use Items is the skill for using magic items. This is a lot like how AD&D used to do things, because being a magic-user was a bit like being an IT tech and you needed a certification before they let you touch the router. It includes the sentence:
The process used is the same as for reading runes, except that the Use Items skill bonus is used.
Which begs the question...why are they separate skills, if they work the same basic fucking way? Well, to make magic-users divvy up their points between more skills, of course.

Magic Skill #3 is Directed Spells, which specifically covers elemental spells used in combat. That might seem very specialized, and it is, and also that it leaves a lot of things...off the page. Like sensing magic use, or talking to spirits, or necromancy, or forging magic items, or talking to birds, or shape-shifting or...well, we'll get into that in a later chapter.
FrankT:

We aren't done with assigning skill ranks yet! You have the profession, and then you get apprenticeship skill ranks. These come with various exchange rates that you can buy less ranks in order to specialize harder. Which you obviously are going to do because a lot of skills are shit like walking around in pants you don't own.

Image
I was going to post a picture to reference the futility of rules about costs of things that you weren't going to buy, but I decided this one was funnier even though it was off topic.

Then you buy equipment from some tables fifty pages later and it assures you that you are allowed to buy herbs.

Image
Kinda like that.
AncientH:

Also, because Frank hasn't quoted this yet:
Example:[b/] Shen-Tyga likes to use a Battle-Axe when he fights with a two-handed weapon. His OB with a Battle-Axe is modified by a +5 when attacking opponents wearing chain or plate, while it is modified by -5 when attacking opponents in rigid leather, soft leather, and no armor (see Table CST-1). When using a Battle-Axe, attack rolls are resolved on the 2-Handed Weapons attack table, with fumbles occurring when an unmodified roll of 01, 02, 03, 04, or 05 occurs. If a critical strike is obtained with the Battle-Axe, it is called the primary critical and is resolved on the Slash Critical Table CT-2. If the primary critical is a "C", "D", or "E", a secondary critical two steps lower (an "A", "B", or "C" respectively) is resolved on the Crush Critical Table CT-1.


I had to stop and giggle once or twice while copying that out.

Image
Every Dwarf axeman doubles as a CPA.

FrankT:


I don't think I ranted enough about how bad these race/culture rules are. The different races and man flavors are in no way balanced and many of them are heavily min/maxed towards specific specs. Growing up Rohirim gives you eight ranks in riding for free, which is more than any other character can buy. Most cultures and shit are going to clog your character sheet with weapon and armor maneuver ranks you will literally never use. Cheating in character generation has got to be standard, because Dwarves have like a 3% of getting spells. Seriously: three percent. This is like AD&D Wild Psionics tables shit.

There's enough contradictory jibber jabber in all this that I don't think a consensus reading is even possible. But it's obvious the design paradigm they were going for was unsalvageable.

AncientH:


I love how Bard is explicitly a "Jack-of-all-Trades", and Animists are explicitly "clerics." No fucks were given in pretending that these weren't D&D classes. None.

Doujin break!
Image


Money is gold pieces, because being a Randroid is acceptable if it's pseudo-Middle Ages. Also, I want to point out that Languages are covered in sections 2.24 (with a pointer to 2.32 and Table CGT-1); 2.32 (with pointers to 2.24 and Table CGT-1); 2.51; and 2.75 (with pointers to 2.21, 3.3, and 3.6). Of course, I use the term "covered" loosely: none of these sections actually specify what languages you can learn, what your bonuses are in them, or how many languages you can learn. Presumably, it is all buried in Table CGT-1. WHO KNOWS.

Image

There's a lot of fiddly details we didn't cover, but I think you get the gist.

FrankT:


Next up: The World System. Core granular action resolution will have to wait its fucking turn because ain't no one got time for that. This book goes from the big to the small, so section 4.0 is about gamemastering the setting and section 6.0 is about resolving individual character actions.

Image
Fuck your couch!
Last edited by Ancient History on Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Orca
Knight-Baron
Posts: 877
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:31 am

Post by Orca »

The Umli were Inuit-ish half-dwarves, not petty dwarves I think? They might have been original to Rolemaster, I don't remember them from as much of Tolkein's work as I read (The Hobbit, LotR & The Silmarillion.)
Lokamayadon
NPC
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:05 pm

Post by Lokamayadon »

I'm pretty sure dwarves cannot breed with elves or humans; they are a species created by a archangel instead of God while elves and humans are the same species but don't have the same kind of soul.
User avatar
Ancient History
Serious Badass
Posts: 12708
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:57 pm

Post by Ancient History »

OSSR MERP
The Rules

Image
We may be running low on give-a-fuck.
AncientH:

By the Valar, are we on section 4.0 already?

We're sort of used to a division between the sections of the book that players are supposed to be aware of and the sections of the book for Mister Cavern - advice, suggestions, stats for NPCs and monsters, that kind of thing. That division doesn't exist in this book. I mean yes, there are sections addressed to the MC, but they're all mixed together with the general rules for the game that players would know too. So it's almost a stream-of-consciousness sort of thing, section after section, none having any relation to each other.
FrankT:

The rules for this game are 22 pages of scrawl and ordered “world system,” “strategic action,” and finally “tactical action.” So things your character actually does in real time is at the end of a series of onion unravelings starting with things so abstract that your character isn't interacting at all. In the thirty years since this book came out, this style of presentation has never caught on. This does not surprise me in the slightest, because it's a terrible way to present things. Other games have generally chosen to lead with what your character can do, and follow it up with rules for abstracting things to save time. Doing it the other way is like greasing a penguin with a bicycle chain. No one knows why you're doing it, but they'd all wish you would stop.

Image
I had no idea what image searching was gonna turn up for that.

Anyway, they start with their weird ass “world system” idea, so I guess we should too. This is like how the Complete Book of Elves suggested that the DM should begin planning a campaign with the creation of the planet. Early game designers seemed to think that you needed to go much higher level than you actually do in order to start a campaign. And I don't mean higher level in the sense of figuring out what 12th level characters are doing, because we all know they never do that. I mean in the sense of asking prospective Dms to pull the lens way back and think about thousands of years of history and hundreds of miles of borders and migrating people and shit. None of that crap matters. You can fill it in later or not at all, because the player characters are never going to interact with that shit or particularly care.

Back in the seventies and eighties the advice for starting a campaign was like “consider the gods and kings and ancient empires” and that is all horse shit. Tolkien actually did that, but when the rubber meets the road, readers of the stuff he actually published only got the barest inkling that that was true. RPGs are in media res, which means that your future plans are probably going to be derailed by the other players at the table and your ancient history is a waste of effort. You should start with the personality of the local blacksmith so the players can start some roleplaying when they buy supplies and the local agricultural products so you can describe the scenes when the player characters enter and leave town.

Image
The players don't give a shit who the 12th king of Angmar Dynasty was, but they are going to be walking past farmers and it would be nice to be able to say that the Hobbits are weeding the rape or pruning the apples or whatever.
AncientH:

1) A setting must be developed for action to take place in.

2) The characters who inhabit the setting must be sketched out.

3) A general plot or scenario must be outlined.

4) Decisions must be made concerning how to handle certain elements of role playing (e.g. adventures, magic, religion, healing, poisons, etc.).
Image
That's not untrue...

Having outlined a 4-point plan for how to...uh...create an adventure? Or something? ...MERP proceeded to ignore it. Well, that's not 100% true: they spend three paragraphs trying to pimp I.C.E.'s adventure modules.

Image

The four points are well-considered, but the MERP folks don't actually do anything with it. They don't explain how to actually apply it to a game, and perhaps most blatantly none of it has anything specific to do with Tolkien's world. It's just generic. Which is one of the main difficulties with any game: what is the hook?
FrankT:

The game provides a seven point design checklist for adventure locations, which are categorized as Civilized Areas, Countryside, and Adventure Sites. Really you only need a three point check list:
  • Describe the location.
  • Why do the players care about this location?
  • What are they going to need to interact with to get the things they care about?
Seven point lists plus accompanying advertisements for other books produced by ICE is losing the forest for the trees. For this to be actually good advice it should have less things for the DM to do and more things for the DM to use. Don't tell the DM they have to write up a price list, give the DM some sample price lists! The PCs need reasons to go places, fucking write some. Don't just tell the DM that they can use whatever goals they can imagine. It's true, but it's not helpful.

Image
Well, that's a reason.

But honestly all of this wishy washy DM advice is just that: wishy washy DM advice. It's not the kind of thing you could reasonably call a “World System.”
AncientH:

There's actually three seven-point lists; you don't care about any of them. I think part of the problem is that D&D, while trading on Tolkien's fictional setting and IP, was really a generic system with no actual default setting (Greyhawk be damned!) It was really a game back when the first thing you did was design the game. And MERP is doing that too...because D&D did it, but not for the reason that D&D did it. MERP already has a setting. They should be talking about how to use the setting, how the setting affects the kind of adventures the PCs can have, how parties of different races and careers might come together to go undertake a common mission. They...don't.

Also, section 4.24 lists the Middle-Earth creatures you might meet, including "Dumbeldors". These are insects that appeared in a Tolkien poem, Errantry.

Image
FrankT:

NPCs are supposed to make reaction rolls. Which is fine. But the results of those reaction rolls isn't defined. The DM thinks of some things that an NPC might do, then rolls some dice and has the NPC do one of those things depending on how those dice make him feel. And then the example is an Orc rolling a 91 on a d100 and still not getting the “high” result, so your guess is as good as mine.

Image
We have to consult the Palantir anyway, so rolling the dice is pretty much pointless.

This is all made more confusing by the fact that the book insists on using D&D tropes without using D&D terms. It took me forever of trying to parse their descriptions of “hostile populations inhabiting adventure sites” that they really just meant monsters in dungeons. We get right around to it in “Typical Adventures” where get shit like raiding and rescue missions and shit, but we're still just stuck up against the fact that we are still not in a generic D&D world. The Dwarves in The Hobbit made a pretty reasonable adventuring party, but they had a specific goal and that goal was accomplished. What other similar challenges exist in Middle-earth? I dunno. This book was pretty much supposed to tell me and then instead it did not.
The Fourth Age (i.e., after the destruction of The Ring and Sauron) allows for greater flexibility in determining the politics of Middle-earth. The Gamemaster may develop any sort of political situation that he wishes, restricted only by the history of the earlier ages. During this period, we suggest the main political organizations be empires, kingdoms, guilds, religious groups, and the like.
If that sounds exactly like this book doesn't do any of the work at all towards converting Tolkien into something you could use for an RPG, that's spot on. This book is bullshit and reading it makes me angry.
AncientH:

Image

The book fails to capture the the sense of Tolkien's world. The book fails to present Tolkien's world, in any real sense. It's a bland exercise in mechanical translation, and it doesn't even do that well.

Anyway, after a couple more pages of generic gamemastery-type stuff about types of scenarios that players might find themselves in that are just generic plots for any quasi-medieval 'verse, we get to magic. Seriously, this isn't a chapter on its own, or in any way connected with the magical skills presented earlier, it's just section 4.5 in chapter 4. Blink and you miss it.
FrankT:

The Magic and Spells section begins with a couple of paragraphs about how magic in the Third Age was often subtle and confusable with natural events and the Istari avoided using their powers unless necessary and thus seemed to be weaker than they were. Sure, fine. Then it goes off the deep and about how there are two kinds of magic: Essence (Magic User spells from AD&D) and Channeling (Cleric spells from AD&D). What the actual fuck?

It's not like Tolkien didn't have a complicated set of magic physics that you could use. There's Magia and Goeteia. Those are things. You can use them. Not using them is a base betrayal of your fanbase. Further, there are a lot of casual spell users in Tolkien and very explicitly non-Istari witches who never do any magic on camera. So within the broad area of Tolkienian magic, you have a lot to work with. We never really see what the magic of Dunlanding witches actually does in any of the books, but it exists. For the purposes of a role playing game you could have it do whatever you wanted it to do. And this may be a fine point, but what you want it to do is to perform adventure related actions that are roughly balanced with what the other characters of similar level are doing. If you want anything else, you need to fuck right off.

So with this clear foundation on which to build their RPG, the MERP folks do no such thing and instead gibber up some bullshit terms for their D&Disms. What a waste.

Image

Anyway, D&D Scrolls are called “Rune Paper” and D&D Wands, Staves, and Rods are called Wands, Staves, and Rods. And all this crap about magic item charging and spell learning and shit comes before descriptions of action resolution. So even if this shit was well designed and well written and well adapted to the source material – and it is none of those things – then it would still be incomprehensible by virtue of being a giant cart in front of a tiny horse.
AncientH:

Dungeons & Dragons based the Wizard class on Gandalf. Explicitly. But they based the magic off Jack Vance, because Tolkien was not interested in going through all the detailed metaphysics of magic. Sure, he went into some of the details here and there - without going outside of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, you know Dwarves cast spells and have moon-runes and shit, and there are crystal balls that see far places and what humans call "magic" Elves think are two completely separate things between what they do and what Sauron does, and there are smiths that whispered spells that enchanted weapons against the Nazgul who was the Witch-King of Angmar. You dig into the Simarillion and the History of Middle Earth, you find a lot more details on what magic is and can do and how it works. These guys...did none of that. This is Rolemaster magic, hamfistedly shoved up Tolkien's corpse and paraded around like a grotesque hand puppet.

Image
FrankT:

Religion is a weird and touchy subject in Tolkien. He personally was Christian and the religious themes in the Lord of the Rings are broadly Christian as well. Morgoth is Satan and Eru Iluvatar is Yahweh. It's pretty unambiguous actually. But of course, this is still a fantasy world and those are fantasy gods and Tolkien wasn't super comfortable writing about the religious practices of “good” people who did not in fact accept the word of Jesus Christ. So what exactly it is that is done in the religious ceremonies of the Free Peoples is pretty much anyone's guess. This would be a place that the RPG could write its own canon. It's pretty important, but all we really know is that the more extreme forms of Melkorism involve setting people on fire as human sacrifices. In this, like all other things that one could mention, this book fails hard.
Image

This is a Czech lady LARPing LotR. Obviously this kind of thing did not happen because of MERP. I don't know what system she was using, but it wasn't MERP.
The section is filled with all kinds of DMG shit like poisons and healing rules and shit and it's all gibberish.
AncientH:

Probably the most annoying part of the Magic section are the bits that blatantly are based on D&D and not anything to do with Tolkien.
The more inert material that is on the person of someone casting Essence spells, the more difficult it becomes to manipulate the Essence. Thus, when casting or using an Essence spell NO armor, greaves or helmet may be worn.
You heard it here folks: the best mages are nudists.

Image

I will give them one thing - in trying to create a list of magic items, which includes D&D leftovers like wand of firebolts, they at least enumerate the costs of each item and the price behind it, to help gamemasters and players make their own. I still don't see anyone in Middle Earth actually buying a magic item, since they're usually given or found or stolen, but there you have it.

Before we get on into the next partition, there are brief sections on injury, healing, and death. This leads to such unusual sentences as:
Injuries to the body can lead to "death."
Scare quotes are required since this isn't death death:
If all injuries to a body have been completely cured but the soul has departed (death has occured), then the character will be in a coma until his soul is returned. While in the coma a roll on Table IHT-1 is required once a day as described below. In this case the column headings referring to rounds are used to refer to the number of days after death.
tl;dr version: Even death may not be an escape from his game. Then there's some stuff on buying poisons and the weather (stream-of-consciousness, remember?) and on into...

Action in the Strategic Environment
The strategic environment consists of the civilized areas and the countryside (see Section 4.1). Compared to tactical action (see Section 6.0), which usually takes place in adventure sites, action that takes place in a strategic environment is usually less dangerous and requires less time to resolve and describe. Such action can often be resolved in very little real time (as opposed to time within the framework of the game).
FrankT:

Ugh. That is about the least informative way of describing scope of narration that I could imagine. There's very little to talk about here because this “chapter” is only 3 pages long and one of those pages is an encounter table. That encounter table does not tell you what you encounter. It is a table to determine how often you get encounters, with the burden of designing these encounters falling entirely on the DM. Even this is not time period dependent, so I'm not sure what use it is. Honestly, the roads becoming unsafe due to higher random encounter density was a pretty important plot point in Fellowship.

Over and over again this book fails at its most basic tasks. Maybe you want to color entirely in the lines and play out off-camera types like the people doing the mop-up in various battles the books cut away from once they've been decided. Maybe you want to adventure in the largely blank portions of the map and build up a kingdom of your own. Maybe you want to play as Aragorn and Gimli and play through established history in the first person. Maybe you want to completely change the history of Middle-earth like the Black Company Crossover Fanfic. These are all valid things you might want to do, and the actual MERP book gives you the tools to do precisely none of those things. Fucking fuck.
AncientH:

The Gamemaster should sketch out the healing facilities (first aid, herbs and animists) in each civilized area, even if it is only a farmer's wife with some old rags and a hot poker.
That's literally as creative as they get. The major important bit of this section is "searching for Herbs," because whoever wrote this was fapping about Aragon curing the King's evil and Healing Herbs are automatic Level 20 healing spells, I shit you not.

Image
This is the good shit. 10gp an ounce.

Action in the Tactical Environment
Image

Image
FrankT:

The actual chapter on combat is pretty short. Mostly it's just pointers to combat tables that go on and on and on but are in the unordered lists section of the book. This game has nine different difficulty classes and there a zero examples of what any of the difficulty classes actually mean. If something is difficult, is it “Very Hard,” “Extremely Hard,” or “Sheer Hard?” It's really important, and those all sound the same to me. If you're in your specialist zone (which almost everything you attempt should be because of the way skill ranks and prime stats work), you're gonna want to be doing something in the hard zone most of the time. But there is actually a penumbra of hard things and no DM guidance as to what constitutes an action that should be one flavor of hard rather than another.

Every round is a spaghetti mess of bullshit and die rolls. Movement is simultaneous. You make percentile rolls to determine how far you move when in stressful situations. There are critical successes, there are fumbles. There are charts. Oh boy are there charts. There are chart entries the direct you to other charts. The outputs of the chart don't really make any sense. Everything is bullshit and madness all the way down. I don't know what the difference between swimming 80% and swimming 70% is supposed to be. You can also swim at more than 100%, which gives a list of possible benefits none of which make sense and also there is no apparent rule to determine which one you get.

There is an incredible amount of die rolling in this fucking game, but at the end of the day the DM basically just interprets the tea leaves. Unless you end up on a critical table, and then shit gets weird.

Image

The effects are so oddly specific that it's almost impossible to go through a combat without having something incredibly stupid happen. Backstab someone into having a broken nose? Bring a hammer down on their head so hard you break their leg? Why the fuck not!

There is considerable text dedicated to explaining how the sample combat in the beginning of the book worked and how it would change if the Orcs did different stuff or you rolled different things.
Agonar rolls a 01, this is an unmodified roll and the spell automatically fails as indicated on Table AT-9. Agonar rolls a 98 (a roll of 88 + 10 for using a Class F spell) on the Spell Failure Table (FT-3), causing the spell to affect Agonar. Agonar makes a Resistance Roll (from table RRT he sees that he needs 50 or above to resist); rolling a 37, he fails and falls asleep.
Image

Everything about that is horrible.
AncientH:

I don't have much to add. There's an example of play that involves YAFT (Yet Another Fucking Table) with the actions for 4 PCs and three NPC orcs over seven rounds. The PCs 'win', but only because the orcs spend the first two rounds doing nothing, and three rounds moving; only one orc makes an attack across 21 separate actions between the three of them.
6) There are no static actions, except perhaps Droggo contemplating his fumble.


Image

D&D got away with this shit because it started out as a turn-based miniatures game. MERP is just copying D&D. Badly.
FrankT:

I can understand the impulse to make lots of tables. The authors keep talking about “realism” and for a certain strain of 1970s game design, that meant having the game system be able to produce more different kinds of outputs. The fact that it was theoretically possible to behead yourself with your own sword meant that the game was “more realistic” if it provided that possibility. But that is, to put it kindly, complete horse shit.

Image

The truth is that frequency matters way more than possibility. That is to say that the game feels more realistic when dumb shit isn't happening constantly. When people pretty much succeed and fail a reasonable amount of the time, the game feels reasonable. And when unusual things happen frequently, then things don't feel realistic at all.
AncientH:

I like big tables and I cannot lie. But that doesn't mean that I want to roll on a table every minute, or even every hour. Tables make procedural generation of content easy, and tables can be used to help remove responsibility from Mister Cavern, placing the PCs' fates in the hands of chance... "Oh ho ho," the Cavern Mistress said, as she rolled the dice. "Let's consult the table..." It's great for seeing what random non-placed treasure and magic items might be in any given owlbear nest and what happens when you try to infuse the bubbling green potion into your scrotum, things like that. But while fun to help with the game, you don't want them to dominate the game. You don't want the dice to roll you.

Image
Too tired to think of a clever or funny caption.

So next up, 7.0: Spell Lists, Tables, and Record Sheets: We're only on page 56
Last edited by Ancient History on Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Voss
Prince
Posts: 3912
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Voss »

I will give them one thing - in trying to create a list of magic items, which includes D&D leftovers like wand of firebolts, they at least enumerate the costs of each item and the price behind it, to help gamemasters and players make their own. I still don't see anyone in Middle Earth actually buying a magic item, since they're usually given or found or stolen, but there you have it.
Its kind of a question mark even for non-magic stuff. In Middle Earth, currency, like romance, is kind of a big ??. Sure Bilbo ends up with fat bags of loot, but the closest thing to actual commerce in an offhand remark that he is more used to meat being delivered to his door by the butcher then hunting it. (Which is completely anachronistic with the rest of the setting). And LotR pretty much doubles down on this and everything (but homes) is either a gift or an heirloom.

But then, this is the setting where a dozen vengeance seeking dwarves set off apparently completely unarmed.

So while as a setting, people can wax on about linguistics and 1000s of years of history, for an RPG how people get supplies and gear is pretty much a divide by cheese error.
Last edited by Voss on Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
maglag
Duke
Posts: 1912
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:17 am

Post by maglag »

Well, Gandalf does comment that Frodo/Bilbo's mythril chainshirt is worth more than the whole Shire put together, so that's a value.

Also the mines of Moria were referenced as being as a hot trading spot before being overrun by goblins, more in particular that the main doors were always open due to merchants always on their way in or out.

As for "a dozen dwarves without gear", they were trying to play subtle. That's why they go out of their way to hire Bilbo in the first place.

That or they had gone broke, forced to pawn their stuff to pay debts and going after the dragon's horde was more of a desperation move than exactly revenge. They do start by looting the crap of Bilbo's kitchen after all. They can't afford food, let alone proper weapons!
Last edited by maglag on Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
FrankTrollman wrote: Actually, our blood banking system is set up exactly the way you'd want it to be if you were a secret vampire conspiracy.
User avatar
angelfromanotherpin
Overlord
Posts: 9745
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Voss wrote:And LotR pretty much doubles down on this and everything (but homes) is either a gift or an heirloom.
Not completely true. You can actually deduce a surprising amount from a single transaction - i.e. Butterbur buying Bill the pony. From that, we know that they use silver pennies, that ten of those pennies is a reasonable price for a pony, and that thirty of them is a painful expense for a prosperous tradesman. That is a very workable starting point.
User avatar
OgreBattle
King
Posts: 6820
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:33 am

Post by OgreBattle »

According to google and LotR wikis, Umli are something MERP made up for MERP. That seems like a really damn weird thing to make up for one's LotR RPG.
hyzmarca
Prince
Posts: 3909
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:07 pm

Post by hyzmarca »

But does it shit on the lore less than Shadows of Mordor? Does it at least accomplish that?
Post Reply