The father of player agency?

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:00 pm

Who was the first author to reject randumb?

Who was the creator of point-buy?

Who was the first who dared saying out loud that the GM was not God? (and had a ruleset that actually backed that up).

Was there anyone before the FATE mafia (whom I now refuse to give credit for anything in virtue of their behavior) that incorporated full shared narrative and metagame currency? (not counting proto-MGC like Edge and Force Points).

I'm asking because we need new names for the big two schools of roleplay. After all, if the Gygaxian school of though is once again the new black, then it can no longer be called "old school." So, to name the other school (which is no longer "new" or "not old"), I'm looking for the father of player agency.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:27 pm

In light of the fact that I can't think of any definitive father of the movement, I've decided to take credit. The proper name for this philosophy is now Chamomilian.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:31 pm

I think the first real point buy system as we'd recognize the concept today was Champions in 1981. As for metagame currency, Shadowrun first edition in 1989 had "Karma" where you got it for doing cool things and could spend it to change die rolls and events and stuff. People did not use it much, because you could also spend it like XP to raise your stats and shit - but it was there.

-Username17

angelfromanotherpin · Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:00 pm

As far as I can tell, the first published point-buy game was The Fantasy Trip (a precursor to GURPS) by Steve Jackson (US model).

As far as proper metagame currency goes, TORG's Drama Deck might count? That was Gorden and Slavicsek.

GM not being God might go to Ars Magica, which I think included rotating GM duties among the players? That's Rein*Hagen and Tweet.

Harshax · Post by **Harshax** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:43 am

I would also vote Steve Jackson's the Fantasy Trip as the first Point-Buy game since it introduced point-buy for skills and talents in 1980. Can't help answer your second question.

echoVanguard · Post by **echoVanguard** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:55 pm

'Gygaxian' and 'Jacksonian' seem sufficiently cromulent.

echo

rasmuswagner · Post by **rasmuswagner** » Mon Oct 03, 2016 5:47 pm

echoVanguard wrote:'Gygaxian' and 'Jacksonian' seem sufficiently cromulent.

echo

We also have delicious potential for confusion, in that Gygax designed his games by throwing shit at the wall and keeping the nuggets that stuck, whereas Mr. Jackson famously has his shit together.

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:09 am

"Jacksonian" might be it.

Would anyone remember whether the first GURPS game had a neutral tone or did it lean towards either the GM or the players? (while Champions was a revolution back in the day with both point-buy and inventing Effects-Orientation, the writing's tone was infuriatingly deprotagonizing and disempowering... also, "Heroic" school sounds both stupid and self-aggrandizing).

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:46 am

James Bond 007 RPG was an early (1983) system with point-buy character creation and hero points that you could spend to alter the environment (among other things).

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:53 am

hogarth wrote:James Bond 007 RPG was an early (1983) system with point-buy character creation and hero points that you could spend to alter the environment (among other things).

Reading the book... yeah, we have a winner. While the way Hero Points are granted could be better, Klug seemingly invented the "edit-a-scene" use of Hero Points, and was careful enough to write ways to keep players protected from misuse of them, and that's all I need to know.

So yeah, as far as I'm concerned, the name I've been looking for is "Klugian."

Thanks Hogarth, and thanks, everyone!

kzt · Post by **kzt** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:07 am

Dogbert wrote: Reading the book... yeah, we have a winner. While the way Hero Points are granted could be better, Klug seemingly invented the "edit-a-scene" use of Hero Points, and was careful enough to write ways to keep players protected from misuse of them, and that's all I need to know.

That is the old Avalon Hill game, where they wrote a cool game and neglected to ensure the people with the license who had to approve every new product actually had any incentive or plan to approve anything?

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:52 am

The 1997 Tenra Bansho Zero lets players spend narrative points to decide to some degree what the next scene will be about or insert themselves into a scene. The goal of that game was to make a session feel like an OVA or few chapters of manga.

mlangsdorf · Post by **mlangsdorf** » Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:27 pm

Dogbert wrote:"Jacksonian" might be it.

Would anyone remember whether the first GURPS game had a neutral tone or did it lean towards either the GM or the players? (while Champions was a revolution back in the day with both point-buy and inventing Effects-Orientation, the writing's tone was infuriatingly deprotagonizing and disempowering... also, "Heroic" school sounds both stupid and self-aggrandizing).

GURPS has always had a fairly neutral tone, maybe with a slight edge toward the GM: it explicitly allows some things that aren't balanced in all games, and encourages the GM to decide what is and is not allowed. But the rules have also emphasized solving debates quickly (and randomly, if necessary) instead of establishing your GM credit.