Who is the most famous wizard in D&D?

[Kaelik]

and Raistlin is better known because the number of people who know even so much as whether he is a good guy or a bad guy is astronomically higher than for any of the Greyhawk wizards.

You keep saying this like it's some kind of meaningful point in your favor which is really weird on like, several levels. I mean like, really weird.

I think basically it's a great stand in for how much of a disingenous fuckface you are about literally everything you ever talk about, but also this discussion in particular.

No one, literally zero people, including you, including the most Dragonlance fanboi of Dragonlance fanbois, remembers whether Raistlin is a good guy or a bad guy.

He's a good guy in one book, then a bad guy in the next book, then later a good guy again because being bad was part of his Xantos Gambit to defeat evil.

If someone asked a random asshole in a foreign country who had never even heard of Raistlin whether he was a good guy or a bad guy, literally any answer he would give would be correct no matter what it was. And literally the same thing is true of Bigby.

What you are trying to imply, with disingenous bullshit, is that if people only remember the Bigby hung out with Mordenkainen (or was a member of the circle of eight), and therefore if they answer "good" they are wrong and don't know anything about Bigby.

But yet, we all know that if someone read the first three Dragonlance books and answered "evil" you would say that was proof of their knowledge of Raistlin. Even though that turned out not to be (entirely) correct (probably, I'm operating on hearsay from TGD discusssion 3 years ago). And then again, if someone only read the first chapter of the first book and said "good" because he was one of the damn PCs, you'd also declare that as proof that they knew Raistlin and Raistlin is famous.

Because you have a dumb double standard where knowing some things about Bigby doesn't count, unless you also know that at level fucking 3 he was "evil" until he got charmed and turned good through association. But apparently only knowing literally that Raistlin exists and was either good or evil automatically somehow counts.

[GâtFromKI]

The more important point is that, in 2016, Penny Arcade fully expects their readers to get that reference.

They also made a joke about tomb of horror and excepted their reader to get it. So what ?

Backlog matters a lot more than the sales of a single book in overall revenue and especially in building familiarity, but we don't even need to argue about that, because we're talking about 25-30 years ago. Are you going to try and convince me that most of the people who read Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms 25-30 years ago are now dead? Because you don't seem to be arguing with me about their being much more famous than anything from Greyhawk at their peak.

No, we argue people don't remember it. And that's how Trivial pursuit works.

"Who is Bambi ?" isn't a Trivial Pursuit question because it's too simple. "What is the name of Bambi's mother ?" is a Trivial pursuit question because everyone knows Bambi is a thing, but nobody can name his mother; more precisely, only a handful of people can. Would you argue that every people who have seen Bambi is now dead ? That would be stupid.

In the same way, a trivial pursuit's fantasy edition question could be "in the DragonLance serie, what is the name of the wizard who did *stuff* ?". It would work because fantasy amateurs remember DragonLance is a thing that existed, but nobody can name a single character from the serie; more precisely, only a handful of people can.

Speaking of trivial pursuit, I'm quite sure that more people can answer the question "What's the name of the D&D wizard who likes giant hands ?" than "name a single DragonLance wizard".


Take it another way: can you name any character from Santa Barbara ? (why the link doesn't work properly ?) Would you argue the serie wasn't well-known ? That every viewer is now dead ?

DragonLance has the same kind of notoriety: every fantasy amateur knows it existed, but nobody think it was good. And nobody remember anything about it.

Nobody can describe Biby. Nobody can identify what race Evard was. Nobody can describe any distinguishing feature of Mordenkainen. These guys don't fucking exist. Their names are completely interchangeable. If we stuck Melfs name on black tentaicles it wouldn't "feel" wrong because there is nothing about those characters that anybody fucking knows.

I can't describe Elminster; and I think nobody I know is able. ("He's old with a white beard like Gandalf and Dumbledor" doesn't count, neither does "he has a gigantic penis because he's more an avatar of the author than a real character")

It's even worse with Raitslin : at least, people are able to say stuff about Elminster, like "I think he appears at the end of BG. And maybe the beginning ?". Raitslin is at best known as "a wizard from GreyHawk ? Or DragonLance ? Or another generic fantasy setting nobody cares about today. Maybe Aventuria ?". And most of the time, he's known as "I saw a guy using that pseudo on the internet once". Nobody knows his race, what he looks like, what kind of spell he used, what he did, except a handful of fanboys.

Nobody i know can describe Bigby, but at least every D&D players, every Baldur's or NeverWinter's player, and many role players can describe his flavored spells. People know Melf likes to throw stuff on other stuff because they had to use the Melf's minute meteor to kill some golems. All in all, that's a higher accomplishment than Raistlin.

[shlominus]

Nobody knows his race, what he looks like, what kind of spell he used, what he did, except a handful of fanboys.

human, hourglass eyes, golden skin, common d&d spells, coughs a lot, is usually severly weakened by spellcasting, wants to become a god.

i read the chronicles and the legends trilogy ages ago. no other books. never played any dragonlance or read any sourcebooks. definitely not a fanboy.

guess that makes me "nobody"...

[GâtFromKI]

Actually, knowing that some random D&D wizard casts "common d&d spells" and "wants to become a god" makes you more like everybody.

[shlominus]

sleep and charm person are pretty iconic spells and those are the ones i remember him casting. did i meantion i read those books many years ago? i think i did. the later stories feature some rituals i can't remember anything about. feel better now?

you seem to be avoiding the fact that your claim is wrong.

if people know specifics about any one dragonlance character, it's probably raistlin. all i know about tanis (arguably the only other candidate for best known character) is that he has a beard and fucked the twin's sister who then turned evil.

all i know about "the dwarf" is that he exists. it's little more for most of the other heroes of the lance.

[deaddmwalking]

This seemed relevant:

The Onion Reports Mankind's Knowledge of TV Trivia Doubling

I read the books ages ago. I know a lot about Raistlin. I had a friend who started gaming because he liked Dragonlance that much. Interestingly, his handle was 'Railstin' online in part because spelling isn't his strong suit and that particular misspelling hadn't been claimed by any other user.

As a regular D&D player since middle-school or earlier, I can name-check lots of Wizards. I've heard of Elminster, and 'NPCs that are better than you' is a big reason I don't like to play in Forgotten Realms. I've also heard of Otiluke and all the other 'spell wizards'. In terms of depth of knowledge, Raistlin might be #1 (because I've read the novels).

I do remember a story of the first dual class PC ever where a character was on the Barsoom equivalent and climbed a tree and daggered enough brutes to 'level up as a fighter'. My recollection indicates that was Robillard, but I could be confused. Assuming that's correct, in terms of stories I've encountered directly, it is Raistlin and Robillard. Elminster is one that I keep hearing about, but don't recall encountering directly (unless he was in Eye of the Beholder I). I do keep hearing about how he's beloved by the goddess of magic or something, but that's about the only story of his I'm at all familiar with.

[GâtFromKI]

you seem to be avoiding the fact that your claim is wrong.

Is there something you don't understand in "fantasy amateurs remember DragonLance is a thing that existed, but nobody can name a single character from the serie; more precisely, only a handful of people can" ?

Congratulation, you are part of the handful of people able to name several DragonLance characters. And some other people have forgotten everything about DragonLance but remember the name of Kelly Capwell, or can name that girl form the D&D movie. So what ?


Anyway, you know the same amount of knowledge about Raistlin than I have about that girl from the D&D movie with Jeremy Iron (she casts DimDoor and maybe Animate Rope, she has brown hair, she's the love interest of the main character, she catch the main character when he's stealing in the mage tower). And that's saying a lot. Especially when you take into account the simple fact that shitty movies have a larger audience than shitty books.

[Chamomile]

The more important point is that, in 2016, Penny Arcade fully expects their readers to get that reference.

They also made a joke about tomb of horror and excepted their reader to get it. So what ?

Dude, if the key support to your argument is "people don't know what the Tomb of Horrors is," you have lost super hard.

"Who is Bambi ?" isn't a Trivial Pursuit question because it's too simple. "What is the name of Bambi's mother ?" is a Trivial pursuit question because everyone knows Bambi is a thing, but nobody can name his mother; more precisely, only a handful of people can.

Raistlin is not the Bambi's mom of Dragonlance. Raistlin is the Wolverine of Dragonlance. The only character more likely to be remembered is Tasslehoff Burrfoot, and that's because loathing sticks in the mind more firmly that liking. Remembering who Raistlin's sister is would be a decent Trivial Pursuit question. Remembering who Raistlin is would not be a decent Trivial Pursuit question. The last time he was mentioned by name in a major nerd media, such that the majority of people who can even show up to a game of D&D Trivial Pursuit will have heard it, was like six weeks ago.

Speaking of trivial pursuit, I'm quite sure that more people can answer the question "What's the name of the D&D wizard who likes giant hands ?" than "name a single DragonLance wizard".

No one's arguing that a larger number of people know Bigby's Hand than Raistlin. What's being argued is that the people who do know Raistlin know actual significant facts about him, and that Bigby's fame is lesser because everyone knows his name but nobody knows anything more significant than that. Even people claiming to have forgotten Raistlin still remember that he defected from the red robes to the black robes, and that is a more significant fact than anything that almost anyone can remember about Bigby. If people can remember that Raistlin had golden skin, a persistent cough, or hourglass eyes, they will have remembered just as many important details as they can about Bigby. There are lots of people who can remember all three of those things but can't tell you more about Bigby besides that he apparently had something to do with hands.

Take it another way: can you name any character from Santa Barbara ?

Having never seen that show in my life, no. Why would you expect me to be in the target audience for that?

I can't describe Elminster; and I think nobody I know is able. ("He's old with a white beard like Gandalf and Dumbledor" doesn't count, neither does "he has a gigantic penis because he's more an avatar of the author than a real character")

Elminster's physical appearance totally is that of a Gandalf clone, so why is accurately describing him as such not count? If you want full points you should also be able to describe him as having a red hat and cloak, but "Elminster is a wizard from the Forgotten Realms who looks kinda like Gandalf and is Ed Greenwood's self-insert" is way more details than "Bigby invented that one hand spell, I guess." Most of the people who know Bigby's name don't even know he's from Greyhawk or who created him.

Nobody knows his race, what he looks like, what kind of spell he used, what he did, except a handful of fanboys.

Depending on how big you describe "a handful," sure, in that the total number of people who can describe Raistlin's physical appearance and a rough outline of his life and accomplishments is probably under a million, and the number of people who can fill in some, but not all of those details is probably in the low millions, and there exist some characters for whom their numbers in the first category are orders of magnitude higher than Raistlin's in the second. Raistlin's not got a prayer against Cedric Diggory, let alone Harry Potter. Bigby sure as Hell can't match Raistlin's numbers, though.

[GâtFromKI]

No one's arguing that a larger number of people know Bigby's Hand than Raistlin. What's being argued is that the people who do know Raistlin know actual significant facts about him, and that Bigby's fame is lesser because everyone knows his name but nobody knows anything more significant than that.

Oh, so you're just moving the goalpost.

Are you really expecting an answer ? 'Cause I can just give you a "you won an internet argument" coupon instead, if you prefer.

Elminster's physical appearance totally is that of a Gandalf clone, so why is accurately describing him as such not count?

Because "looking like everyone else" isn't a description ?

Describing an old wizard as being old, having a white beard, wearing robes and holding a staff is like describing some random guy as having a nose, two legs and several fingers.

[GâtFromKI]

Elminster is one that I keep hearing about, but don't recall encountering directly (unless he was in Eye of the Beholder I).

He appears at the beginning and the end of Baldur's gate.

He appears, give some shitty advice like "don't take cold" or "be careful when you cross the road", and at the end he comes back and says "I knew you would become a god without my help lol". It doesn't make sense, it's shitty, it's not even integrated in the flow of game (the encounter with Drizz't makes far sense), it could as well be Ed Greenwood saying "thanks for playing the game", it's Elminster.

[Chamomile]

No one's arguing that a larger number of people know Bigby's Hand than Raistlin. What's being argued is that the people who do know Raistlin know actual significant facts about him, and that Bigby's fame is lesser because everyone knows his name but nobody knows anything more significant than that.

Oh, so you're just moving the goalpost.

Are you really expecting an answer ? 'Cause I can just give you a "you won an internet argument" coupon instead, if you prefer.

Here is my original very first post in this thread:

Does having a large number of people who know that Bigby is "I guess the guy who invented that one spell" equal more fame than having a smaller number of people know Raistlin as "the guy who had a time travel plot to kill the gods" or Elminster as "the guy who slept his way to the job of archmage?" There's a degree of fame in having your name known at all, but I don't think the Greyhawk wizards can be considered the most famous wizard on the basis of that alone. Almost nobody knows who they actually were.

[shlominus]

an iconic wizard character from a bestselling series of d&d books and one of the best known d&d worlds is in fact hardly known at all amongst the group of people that might know any d&d wizards.

i'm sure you are correct. carry on!

[Kaelik]

Again, Schlomo and Chamomile's basic argument boils down to "If I just double standard hard enough and declare all knowledge of Bigby fake knowledge, then Raistlin is totally more famous."

I mean, let's be honest for a minute, does even a single human being in the universe remember any description of Gandalf's eyes off the top of their head? Of course not, at this point we all jammed Ian McKellen's eyes into our brain space and moved on.

Arguing that a physical description of someone's eyes counts as "really knowing them" but knowing about the things they did is "fake knowledge" is basically just declaring that you really want the answer to be Raistlin.

[Josh_Kablack]

Really Srs Evdence

[shlominus]

my "basic argument" is that a well-known character from a widely-known d&d world, who is the protagonist of several bestselling books is certainly well-known amongst those interested in such things.

that's all of the argument. i haven't said a word about bigby.

it's a tie!

http://www.googlefight.com/raistlin-vs-bigby.php

[deaddmwalking]

That shows Raistlin winning for me (136 versus 130).

I think that including a standard for 'fame' is relevant. A lot of people have probably heard of Hadrian, and maybe Hadrian's Wall. And that's about it. Maybe, they can confirm that he was an Emperor of Rome, but probably not which century.

Bigby would be like Hadrian in this example. Having heard of him doesn't necessarily imply fame.

With Rastlin, most people who know him can name several of his companions and his accomplishments. They can also probably describe his physical appearance (it helps that he has a very unique appearance). I think it's clear that among people who know him, he's known BETTER than Bigby.

As far as 'total numbers of people that have heard of either one', I don't think there is any strong evidence either way. If I were a representative sample, I would consider Raistlin more famous than Bigby - again, not because I know one and not the other, but because of the DEGREE of knowledge. I haven't read the books in years, but I know that Raistlin's brother was Cameron and his last name was Mujer or something (spelling?), but I couldn't provide the same level of detail about Hadrian OR Bigby.

[Prak]

Literally everything I know about Raistlin is that he's was scene before scene was a thing and Aaron Williams drew a Nodwick comic of him and Elminster having a cage match for an issue of Dragon magazine.

I wouldn't call that fame

[Pixels]

Majere. And while it's true that I know him considerably better than any other D&D wizard, that's because I read everything Weis and Hickman wrote up to the end of the War of Souls. I think it's going to be mostly all-or-nothing for knowing Raistlin, while a lot of people will have heard of Bigby or Tenser or Mordenkainen but not know anything beyond a few spell names.

[Voss]

Elminster is one that I keep hearing about, but don't recall encountering directly (unless he was in Eye of the Beholder I).

He appears at the beginning and the end of Baldur's gate.

He appears, give some shitty advice like "don't take cold" or "be careful when you cross the road", and at the end he comes back and says "I knew you would become a god without my help lol".

Well, no. He shows up at every chapter break and spits platitudes at you, then reinforces where you're supposed to go next. Its spun as 'your foster father was a colleague and correspondent of El's,' though in the spirit of useless mentors in fiction, it takes him a while to admit that.

There seemed to be a real fear that people wouldn't recognize the setting without cameos, so they jammed some random people in there and used them as the tl;dr version of the journal entries to push people along the plot.


As for Raistlin... well, after deaddm insisting he's more famous than actual Roman emperors (rather than obvious converse that Raistlin fans are apparently ignorant fuckwits), I'm certain now we've stomped on a whiny minority's waifu, and it is only going to get more hilarious from here.

[Dogbert]

Jim Darkmagic?

Give it two more years of shilling, and he might become it.

I'd certaintly welcome a d&d ironic novel written by Holkins better than whatever schmuck they try to get to replace Salvatore with (not that Salvatore was hot stuff himself).

[deaddmwalking]

As for Raistlin... well, after deaddm insisting he's more famous than actual Roman emperors (rather than obvious converse that Raistlin fans are apparently ignorant fuckwits), I'm certain now we've stomped on a whiny minority's waifu, and it is only going to get more hilarious from here.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but if you're going to equate everyone who knows about Raistlin with a rabid fan boy, I'm going to think yours is dumb.

I didn't care for Dragonlance. I had a friend who was way into it - and you're dredging up long buried memories - who wanted to run the War of the Lance Adventures. He was committed to ensuring we did not deviate from the novels. I had originally chosen to play as Sturm Brightblade, but when he was supposed to die, I had to switch to Cameron. This actually had to be in elementary school.

As far as relative fame of historical figures to pop culture (even fring elements of pop culture) I think you have to consider what you mean. While my wife is a historian and I spend a significant amount of time with historians, I've bever met a rabid Hadrian fan (though one professor in college had a man-crush on Justinian), but I've met two Raistlin fans. I did read the Dragonlance trilogy (so I knew how to play my character 'right').

Again, there's no way to definitely prove things one way or another, but anecdotally, Raistlin seems more famous than Elminster in my experience. I would be skeptical of claims to the contrary, especially without evidence. While my experience may not be representative, I won't dismiss lived experience without other data.

Raistlin may not be famous by any measure, but choosing him is certainly justifiable. A claim to the contrary appears to aimed at baiting.

[Voss]

As far as relative fame of historical figures to pop culture (even fring elements of pop culture) I think you have to consider what you mean. While my wife is a historian and I spend a significant amount of time with historians, I've bever met a rabid Hadrian fan (though one professor in college had a man-crush on Justinian), but I've met two Raistlin fans.

I certainly don't mean fame = rabid fans, and a basic failing of general education = lack of fame. Nor does personally meeting obsessed fanatics equate to a person is famous (or not).

[OgreBattle]

The books Raistlin was in seemed more popular among my circle of gaming acquaintances and what was available at the public library, I only started hearing about Elminister when I visited charop boards and some reference to a gary stu wizard/cleric/everything written by a greenwood would occasionally come up.

In Asia specifically I wonder if Capcom's Magic User in Tower of Doom and Shadow Over Mystara would be better known than the novel characters.

[Chamomile]

As for Raistlin... well, after deaddm insisting he's more famous than actual Roman emperors

Are you really going to try and convince us that you don't know what an analogy is? And even if you succeed, do you actually think that'll make your argument more credible?

[Mechalich]

The books Raistlin was in seemed more popular among my circle of gaming acquaintances and what was available at the public library, I only started hearing about Elminister when I visited charop boards and some reference to a gary stu wizard/cleric/everything written by a greenwood would occasionally come up.

Elminster's novel presence is rather funny. Unlike Raistlin, who tends to be part of the core group of characters in any novel where he appears (with the exception of Dragons of Summer Flame), Elminster tends to have a secondary role in a huge portion of Forgotten Realms novels (and more broadly, in FR media in general). So while the books that are specifically about Elminster - which tend to be by Ed Greenwood and have Elminster in the title - aren't anywhere near as popular as the mainline books that feature Raistlin (which is basically the Chronicle and Legends trilogies) - he shows up in a lot of other books.

For example: Elminster manages to appear in both Spellfire and Azure Bonds, two of the very first FR novels released way back in 1988 (I once owned a copy of Spellfire that had the Penguin logo on the spine, not a TSR logo) even though neither book is about him in any significant way. That would keep on happening all through the FR novel line with Drizzt novels as the big exception - it's the one major novel thread that Elminster tends not to get his claws into.

If you picked a Dragonlance novel at random the chances of Raistlin being in it or even being referenced in it are quite low, whereas in a random FR novel the chances of Elminster showing up or at least someone mentioning him is fairly high.

Elminster also had a broader role in D&D supplemental material than Raistlin (or any of the Greyhawk wizards for that matter) since he got mentioned in tons of FR supplements but also snuck into the ELH and any number of Dragon magazine and WotC web supplement articles written by Greenwood in Elminster voice.