A way to rethink HD and class basics

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JonSetanta
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A way to rethink HD and class basics

Post by JonSetanta »

What if all classes, including monster Hit Dice, were simply thus...


• 8 Hit Points
• All saves progress at 1/2 level, round down, no bonus to start. Reflex adds to AC as Dodge.
• 8 skills at 3 + level ranks

Not even going to worry about BAB. Everyone gets it at full progression, but "touch attacks" are a thing of the past, armor is accounted for in every attack.

Essentially, everyone gets an Outsider Hit Die.

Now here's the rub;

Save bonuses, you know that typical +2 at level 1, come from a +4 "class bonus" to one of three stats, either DEX, CON, or WIS.
The three class tropes would be categories: Rogue, Warrior, and Mage.
I'd also suggest a mana system tied to WIS but that's something else entirely.

At later levels a character gets more chances for stat boosts.
Something like level 11 would grant another +4 at least.
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Post by Leress »

If everyone gets the same thing why would have it in the first place? That just seems like a waste of space.
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
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Post by JonSetanta »

As a baseline to start from, what else?
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Post by Voss »

So... a fighting class with the same attack bonus and hit points as literally everyone.
a skill class with the same skills as a literally everyone.
and
wizard with the same attack bonus, skills and hit points as everyone else.

Hmm. Hmmm. No. Can't spot any obvious problems with that at all.
Are you even attempting to think about this?
Last edited by Voss on Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JonSetanta »

Fighting class would use the CON boost, providing +2 HP per level.
... If you wished.

As for skills, I suppose you could restrict skill lists, but I don't see the point.
People are going to want to pick skills that complement their archetype such as a Rogue choosing Hide, MS, Sleight of Hand, Spot, etc, while a Mage will most likely pick Spellcraft and a few knowledge skills.

But the point is they have enough skill points to be competent in whichever role they chose. Isn't that much better than a Fighter with 2 SP vs. an INT Rogue with like 12+ SP?
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Post by JonSetanta »

I could have the +4 WIS option subtract -2 HP per level, so if you take it you end up with 6 HP per level, but that's just sacred cows in action.
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Post by Voss »

So, that would be a no, then.
But the point is they have enough skill points to be competent in whichever role they chose. Isn't that much better than a Fighter with 2 SP vs. an INT Rogue with like 12+ SP?
As incompetent as that particular design decision is in retrospect, that isn't the problem with what you presented.

The problem is you don't present archetypes, at all. You present three variations of 'adventurer' that grant a minor stat adjustment, and that is... the end. (presumably on top of normal stat generation since you don't mention it at all)

No one gives a shit about 'complementing' them, because the sole obvious choice is Wizzard. Because each 'class' is equal except Mages get a pile of good shit on top of being the equals of everyone else, and the normals apparently get nothing.

Congrats, you've re-created 5e, with fewer options and details. Amazing in its own way, I guess.
Last edited by Voss on Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by JonSetanta »

Mages getting all the "good shit" is a problem of spells not the hit die.

But from the vote I see, I'll abandon this notion entirely. It seems unpopular.
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Post by Eikre »

It's not unpopular, it's the essential basis for more games than not.

You're getting rightfully shit on because it is completely uninteresting. You're not solving anything, you're not breaking anything, you're not really building anything, you're certainly not "rethinking" anything because the work you're outlined is just a variable regression to the null hypothesis of "everyone is the same until they have a trait that says otherwise."

Yeah, sure. With these unbounded options, I finally have the freedom to play a smart and fragile warrior who has all the skillpoints and lack of HP that a rogue does, but all the bonus feats and 0d6 sneak attack dice of a fighter! Whoa, revolutionary! Oh wait no actually I don't care at all.
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Post by Leress »

Sentanta, what problem are you trying to solve with this proposal?
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
I want him to tongue-punch my box.
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Post by Voss »

JonSetanta wrote:Mages getting all the "good shit" is a problem of spells not the hit die.
Yes it is. So a system that brings their hit dice, skills and BAB in line with all normals, takes away nothing from mages and gives nothing to normals doesn't fix anything.

Balancing by the various elements of the class chassis was weird and often didn't work, but normalizing everything does nothing to address the problem areas. You have to put a lot of work balancing a shitload of special abilities to spells, which is why 5e is still 'full caster or go fuck yourself' edition- like you they didn't do the real work.


The only place where there is any measure of improvement with your change is skills (though it raises a lot of questions about gaining new skills). But most sane people would just shrug and accept 4 or 6 skill points for all classes, because it fluffs things out and makes no real difference- a lot of classes just stop being idiot-savant caricatures, but it makes little difference in game terms.
Last edited by Voss on Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JonSetanta »

Leress wrote:Sentanta, what problem are you trying to solve with this proposal?
Too much Hit Dice variability.
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Post by erik »

Protip. Work on solving actual problems.
a problem of spells not the hit die.
More like the problem is mages are the only class that get interesting options (spells). It hits the nail on the head that you noted that hit dice aren't a problem and they're what you're trying to solve.

This thread does make me eat some crow though since I derided your use of polls for game design. If you can be persuaded to abandon crap ideas after 6 people vote "no" then you could efficiently cap your game design threads at one page each with similar polling (i.e. is this garbage? Yes, No, Maybe). So it does have some merit.
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Post by Voss »

JonSetanta wrote:
Leress wrote:Sentanta, what problem are you trying to solve with this proposal?
Too much Hit Dice variability.
Feel free to make a case that it is actually a problem in some fashion. Not saying it necessarily isn't, but 'Hit dice variability is a problem and here is why...' is a vital thing altogether absent from your first post and every one after it.

but... while you're at it, explain why squishing the die types pathfinder style (d4s to d6s and some d6s to d8s, and then going further and tossing the d12s) doesn't fix it.

Or alternately, how the 4/5/6 hp per level 4e used doesn't fit what you want to model better.

And once you've done that,
then explain how fixed 8 hp per level is actually better than either of those, another option or leaving it alone, because that yields fucking horrible hit point bloat, to the point that weapon damage and evocations feel even more like whipping the padded sumo. Save or die becomes the only feasible solution as CR approaches 10, as hp totals have already rocketed past 150 straight toward 300-400+

And as a bonus... how the fucking fuck does max BAB for everyone or setting saves to 0 address it in any way at all?



A better alternative would be a system that is designed to avoid bloat, say Con score at level 1 + 3, 4, 5 or 6 per level after 1st (con mod never gets added). It avoids dying to cats at first level, produces numbers roughly in the range you'd expect for the functional parts of the game, then avoids a lot of the bloat at high levels.

One of the big mistakes of 3rd (and repeated by 3.5, 3.PF, 4th and 5th without exception) was making Xdy+X*con mod something _everything_ got, and uncapped it to infinity. Like your 8/level, the X*con mod is the major problem, it makes the hp numbers ridiculous, and far outstrips the damage numbers on swords and evocations. 1st & 2nd edition monsters could actually be fought and killed in reasonable amounts of time because they just had hit dice, and pcs capped out at 9th or 10th, and just started getting +1, 2 or 3 per level.
Last edited by Voss on Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by hyzmarca »

erik wrote:Protip. Work on solving actual problems.
a problem of spells not the hit die.
More like the problem is mages are the only class that get interesting options (spells). It hits the nail on the head that you noted that hit dice aren't a problem and they're what you're trying to solve.
If you're going to make all the classes identical except for stats, it makes sense to give fighters and rogues access to the same spell list as mages. So, a fighter would be able to memorize spells, but just fewer of them because he doesn't have the stats needed to get bonus spell slots.
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Post by JonSetanta »

hyzmarca wrote: If you're going to make all the classes identical except for stats, it makes sense to give fighters and rogues access to the same spell list as mages. So, a fighter would be able to memorize spells, but just fewer of them because he doesn't have the stats needed to get bonus spell slots.
But we can't have that, because

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Voss, I see your point, but yet again it seems more an issue with the spells than HP bloat.
Evocation does suck. It's sucked since AD&D ended. I could fix that too, but the result would be another thread discussion just like this.
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Post by Leress »

JonSetanta wrote:
Leress wrote:Sentanta, what problem are you trying to solve with this proposal?
Too much Hit Dice variability.
And this is a problem, why?
Koumei wrote:I'm just glad that Jill Stein stayed true to her homeopathic principles by trying to win with .2% of the vote. She just hasn't diluted it enough!
Koumei wrote:I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term!
Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
I want him to tongue-punch my box.
]
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Post by Voss »

JonSetanta wrote: Voss, I see your point, but yet again it seems more an issue with the spells than HP bloat.
Evocation does suck. It's sucked since AD&D ended. I could fix that too, but the result would be another thread discussion just like this.
It isn't really, since it affects basic damage with weapons as well. Fighters and rogues were demonstrably less shitty in older editions because they could actually contribute to defeating enemies... despite having fewer abilities.

It would be another discussion, yes. But it would actually be a potentially productive discussion since it attempts to find a solution to a recognizable problem rather than just something dropped out of the blue that doesn't even register as a problem to most people.
Last edited by Voss on Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JonSetanta »

I'll start the new thread.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

A "generic" adventurer class would be more in keeping with the Dying Earth source material than most of D&D's actual rules.

An example character, Cudgel the Clever spends 90% of their adventuring time being a rogue of some kind. Even when they're using weapons and combat magic... it's to accomplish a misdirecting ruse. However they do spend some time talking with a mage and realize that it's simply mental ability that distinguishes a powerful caster; or a lesser caster. Thus, for a about 10% of their total adventuring, they use a few minor spells.

Personally; I'd probably think that a more Shadowrun styled engine will give a more realistic; and less wargamey, feel to its combat. With such a direction "lower" power adventurers are apothecaries, warriors, foresters; while "higher" power ones are alchemists, warliege, rangers.
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Post by JonSetanta »

Judging__Eagle wrote:A "generic" adventurer class would be more in keeping with the Dying Earth source material than most of D&D's actual rules.
Good point. Also, I specifically meant d20 gaming, not Shadowrun, unless I'm misunderstanding you
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Post by hyzmarca »

Judging__Eagle wrote:A "generic" adventurer class would be more in keeping with the Dying Earth source material than most of D&D's actual rules.

An example character, Cudgel the Clever spends 90% of their adventuring time being a rogue of some kind. Even when they're using weapons and combat magic... it's to accomplish a misdirecting ruse. However they do spend some time talking with a mage and realize that it's simply mental ability that distinguishes a powerful caster; or a lesser caster. Thus, for a about 10% of their total adventuring, they use a few minor spells.

Personally; I'd probably think that a more Shadowrun styled engine will give a more realistic; and less wargamey, feel to its combat. With such a direction "lower" power adventurers are apothecaries, warriors, foresters; while "higher" power ones are alchemists, warliege, rangers.
Lots of video games use a generic adventurer class as a way to allow on the fly customization as you learn the game. So instead of starting out specialized and growing more powerful in your specialty as you level up, you start out being able to do everything and specialize into a role as you level up. A pyramid rather than a tower.

A reverse pyramid for casters. You start out with a little bit of versatility, and you end up with all the versatility.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

JonSetanta wrote:
Judging__Eagle wrote:A "generic" adventurer class would be more in keeping with the Dying Earth source material than most of D&D's actual rules.
Good point. Also, I specifically meant d20 gaming, not Shadowrun, unless I'm misunderstanding you
Then you're unlikely to actually resolve the issues that you want to solve.

D20 is inherently limited in certain aspects due to its tendency to be used as a "wargame" engine that only cares about "binary" results (fail/succeed); furthermore these wargame aspects are why issues like "Fighters can't have nice things" refuse to be scrubbed out (wargames thrive on distinctly heterogeneous unit types Fighters/Spellcasters/Clerics; but in actual fictional source material, virtually all protagonists are Rogues with maxed UMD).

It also leads to issues such as the "Critical Existence Failure" whereby current HP =/= current Effectiveness; and focus-firing each creature till they die is the only thing worth doing.

While you can use a D20 engine; you will have to work within the narrative limits of the engine when building a game based on said engine.
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Post by Hicks »

I normally don't open with an antagonistic stance, but I've hated every thread started by Sigma since ever, so I want to open with that and then address the problem his proposal "solves."

Basically it fixes the edge case where wizards can roll 1d4-4 hp per level (minimum 1) and get a disproportionate boost to HP when their Con is boosted, which is an actual problem. I think it involves Frank's difference engine problem of leveling up and hp, but it's been a few years since that came up. The only thing wrong with sigma proposal is that it is a few years behind the simpler, scalable, better solution is 3e Shadowrun's proportional/logarithmic damage system.
Last edited by Hicks on Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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