[OSSR]Birthright Boxed Set

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Ancient History
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[OSSR]Birthright Boxed Set

Post by Ancient History »

OSSR: Birthright
The Box Set

By Richard Baker and Colin McComb
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Cover art in this thing is pretty bad.
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”Birthright” is more commonly associated with a multi-billion dollar propaganda campaign by the nation of Israel to wine and dine people of Jewish descent to convince them to provide political support for the country's military aid. It has been so successful that even after Netanyahu broke a treaty, tried to start a nuclear war, and taunted the American president inside the American Capitol Building, even discussions of reducing the military aid that Israel receives are not on the table for either political party. Birthright has successfully got itself sufficient numbers of political partisans on both the left and the right that there is literally nothing the prime minister of Israel could do that would seriously jeopardize the United States' continued military support of the country.

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Also there's this... thing. Where the Birthright campaign is supported by a series of increasingly insane Christian groups who believe that Israel fighting a giant world-devastating war in the Middle East is a prelude to Jesus coming back and raising all their loved ones from the dead. For them, the prime minister of Israel acting like a war mad lunatic is a feature, not a bug.

But this review isn't about any of that Middle East crap. This review is about the 2nd Edition AD&D® campaign setting that also happens to be called “Birthright.” While we considered doing “Cities of the Sun” where the Birthright campaign setting does their Middle East expies, we have elected instead to do the basic box set.

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Some day perhaps. But not today.

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The Box Set contains three books.
AncientH:

Cerilia is not the setting most associated with D&D. It is not, indeed, in the top five, and only makes it into the top ten because there were barely that many official AD&D settings. Most people can name Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Planescape, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, and Dark Sun pretty easily; stuff like Mystara, Birthright, and Red Masque tend to play third fiddle to stuff like Maztica (technically Forgotten Realms), Oriental Adventures (also technically Forgotten Realms), Arcane Age (still Forgotten Realms), Al-Quadim (et tu, Forgotten Realms?), and Red Steel (Mystara).

So what made Birthright different? It was basically an effort to combine Warhammer Fantasy-style narrative campaigns with D&D. That sounds like a complicated but potentially winning combination. If you're unfamiliar with a "narrative campaign," it's a bit like a war game but with some strategic as well as tactical decisions: you have a realm, you're engaged in a conflict with other players, and you make map-level decisions and position your forces a bit like in Dominions, but then you fight skirmish-level battles a bit like Dominions, and that has effects on the macro game based on whether you win or lose, a bit like Dominions.
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I kinda miss being able to play Dominions
The difference between Birthright and Dominions 4: the RPG is that you're not a god - it is, in fact, a bit closer to Game of Thrones or maybe even Erfworld in mechanics. In this setting, non-nobles suck. Noble bloodlines get all the best power and magic. And they war with each other over territories and shit.

If this all sounds confusing, or like a bunch of people had vaguely similar ideas of trying to play out actual medieval-esque political/military power fantasies in a fantasy setting with monsters and magic - go reward yourself with a cookie. That is exactly the case. Lots of people really want the "what if?" scenario where you can recruit dragons and go torch the neighbor's castle, and there doesn't exist a really good way to model it...though ghost knows people have tried.
FrankT:

Dungeons & Dragons has Lord of the Rings deeply in its roots. To the point that the original D&D got a lawsuit pointed right at its face by Tolkien's estate for the use of the names Hobbit and Ent. Also Orc, but Gygax was able to successfully argue in court that Orc wasn't a protected term because it was an old Saxon word for dangerous stranger and he had just as much right to name pig faced monstrous humans that as Tolkien did. But regardless, the point is that D&D is heavily influenced by Tolkien at every level even when it is legally required to claim otherwise. And so when D&D reaches for climaxes, it usually wants to do battles between Orcs and Elves or duels between Wizards. Which is fine and all, but when your giant battles system is a hot mess, you mostly end up with just wizard fight after wizard fight. And while that can be suitably epic, if looked at from the wrong angle it's basically just old men slapping each other with their walking sticks.

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Old men. Falling down.

So it's not really that surprising that people sometimes say “When can we get the castles and the armies that this game promised us?” And this usually just involves mumbling and shuffling your feet, because as mentioned before the kingdom management and mass battles rules for this game have been mostly lacking entirely when they weren't simply unplayable. Now, Birthright was an attempt to fix that. Now, at this point you're probably asking something along the lines of “Hey Frank – isn't Birthright a setting? Why in the name of Cthulhu would you attempt to fix a general problem like the inadequacy of rules for running domains by creating a new setting that nominally did not impact campaigns people were already running? In any sane world, wouldn't all these ideas, good and bad, go into a brown covered book called 'The Complete Kingdom' or something?” And yeah... that's pretty much everyone's reaction to Birthright, which is probably why the setting never did that well.

But honestly, that is a very good question. There's not really any reason for the big ideas of this setting to be attached to a specific setting. The Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk and shit already have kings and armies and so on and so forth. Becoming a lord and getting your own realm was promised in the Player's Handbook of the previous edition.

As best we can discern, Birthright is a separate entity for two reasons. The first is that probably Ed Greenwood didn't want cooties from the guy who wrote the Complete Book of Elves getting on his LotR self insert slashfic. And the second, and probably bigger reason was that TSR was making mad stacks of money in 1994 and was actively looking for excuses to write more books. So between the two of those, Birthright went from “an idea about a Domain Management minigame” to “a bloated thirty book series of obscurica.” Historically, we do know that Birthright was an epic fail financially, which probably has a lot to do with the fact that the entire setting seemed like a superfluous attempt to sell more books even at the time.
AncientH:

There is a third reason: Birthright begins and ends by taking a huge steaming pile of shit on a lot of PCs and NPCs. Normal PCs are usually very specifically not nobility, and D&D traditionally works very hard from them becoming nobility. Oh sure, you can hit 9th level and become a Lord, but the whole inherited nobility/bloodline thing gets into super-creepy Divine Right of Kings bullshit pretty damn fast - even Tolkien tripped over his elf dick in Lord of the Rings with that sort of thing.

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And thus was founded the line of kings of Gondor for the next three thousand years.

The thing is, one of the core conceits of Birthright is that your character's mother did indeed get fucked by lord such-and-such, and because of that You Are Special. If she paid the stablehand to look the other way while she entertained the Centaur Ambassador, you are fucked. Maybe literally, if you can convince your partner you're genetically hung like a horse.

So that's a major reason Birthright wasn't exactly generic to begin with: the core conceit is that you couldn't earn it, you had to be born with it. Or: "PCs, fuck off" in big, bold letters.

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You have to be chosen.
FrankT:

The Birthright line is immense. There are seriously 31 books for this thing. It came out in 1995, and pretty much wasn't continued when TSR went bankrupt in 1997, but there's still a slow trickle of procedurally generated crap going out until WotC folded AD&D in 2000. But while Blood Spawn: Creatures of Light and Shadow flopped out at the end of the cycle, 90% of this shit came out in just three years. Just think of what had to have been going on in the company for this to have happened. The entire line must have been greenlighted before the first box set shipped. Before anyone knew if there was a market for any of this, the company had already issued writing contracts for thirty fucking books. If people want to know why TSR went bankrupt two years later, this is why.

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This was a heady time for TSR. While they were losing market share to White Wolf, they were still the kings of the hill. And that hill was pretty big. Dragon Magazine had a circulation of 125,000. Every month. D&D books were a license to print money, and TSR responded to that information by greenlighting all the books. Within a year of this box set, players could buy a 32 page “book” called Player's Secrets of Stjordvik. As it happens, they did not. But this is where TSR was coming from and going to.

We make fun of 21st century White Wolf for their endless shovelware – and we are right to do so. And it's important to note that while TSR was bankrupting itself with overprinting book titles, they never matched the raw word output that electronic submissions of emailed Word documents allowed. So yes, Scion was one million words long spread out over three shelf breakers that came out inside a single year, while Birthright got Tribes of the Heartless Waste (by Ed Stark), a 64 page book in a rather generous font. But Tribes of the Heartless Waste also came with a bunch of cardboard sheets of tokens to represent Russianesque barbarians, and you've never heard of it. So I'm almost sure that it lost money.

And it is precisely this over use of publishing resources that ultimately took down the company. There simply isn't enough shelf space in a typical gaming store to have sixteen different Player's Secrets books for different regions of a third tier AD&D setting. Let alone questions of whether peoples' appetite for 2nd Edition AD&D Birthright Setting region books was going to equal their demand for like Vampire: the Masquerade Clan Books, I just don't know where TSR thought they were going to get shelf space for all this shit. Frankly, I don't think such mundane concerns of practicality entered into it at all. They simply saw that D&D books made money so they decided to make more books to make more money.

This isn't even the only time D&D has fallen into this trap. It's similar to the 4th edition D&D thing where they decided that core rulebooks sold for money so they decided to write a dozen “core rulebooks” for 4th edition in its first year. And like every other time gaming companies have tried that approach, it failed. There just is a maximum number of products you can sell, and Birthright represented the physical point in 1995 where that line was crossed by TSR.

The Rulebook
Introduction
for Alexandria Lynn
Random House and its affiliate companies have worldwide distribution rights in the book trade for English language products of TSR, Inc.
Birthright had a half dozen novels written for it, but the last one (The Falcon and the Wolf) was never printed and WotC ended up selling off the digital proofs in 2000 after they had given up on bringing the line back in any real form.
AncientH:

TSR never adopted the systematic approach to designing the various settings that made up its publishing empire that White Wolf did; it just wasn't that organized. As such, there is almost zero crossover between the different game lines. There's no promise that any given book for Birthright is going to look like any given book for Dark Sun or Forgotten Realms or whatever in either style or content - with the sole exception of the Monstrous Compendiums, because that at least was a semi-standardized format that most of the writers could agree on.
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And even there, Birthright had to be different.
No, this was the heady era of the boxed set, when the magnificence of a new setting could not be contained in a single hardbound pair of covers, but was instead shipped in a ratty box as two or three staple-bound (or, if they were feeling generous, perfect-bound) floppies. Joy.
FrankT:

Of the two 96 page rulebooks in the boxed set, the rulebook named Rulebook is probably the one we should start with, so that's what we're gonna do. The book opens with an introduction. Well, it cold opens with the sentence “Dark storms gather over war torn lands.” But as rapidly becomes apparent, we are in the introduction now.

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One of the most annoying things about Birthright books is that they put chapter headers in the body of the text part way down the page. I mean, it's a look, but it's a bad look. I'm not going to say that there are never any advancements in the world of typography. There was a dark time before the invention of Helvetica (anything before 1957 is the “Before Helvetica” period of typography, which is why people read so much more today than they did in the early fifties). But in general, if your typographer tells you that she has some new ideas she wants to try out, you should probably just punch her in the mouth. It would save time.

The introduction itself is one page long and half of it is a sidebar discussing new terms. But even the regular text defines some terms for us, like awnsheghlien, which is an Elvish word meaning that Colin McComb couldn't go five minutes without spurging out about Elves and the awesomeness that they possessed. The sidebar is for noting that domain management involves taking month long turns called action rounds which are grouped into three turn blocks called domain turns. And I'm using italics and bolding as the book does, because not all of these terms have their own entries so blood abilities, Regency Points, and holdings are defined (or at least referenced) inside list items, while Bloodline, Domain, and Regency are list items.

Birthright loses the plot on the very first page because the ruler of a domain is called a “Regent.” But Regent is a real word with a real meaning, and that meaning is someone who performs the duties of the head of state without actually being the head of state. It's very weird to me that no one at TSfuckingR knew that extremely basic piece of royalty terminology trivia.
AncientH:

tl;dr version: in the mythic past, legendary heroes (read: not you) won a battle and were imbued with the essence of the gods; these dudes and dudettes went on to found bloodlines with supernatural powers, and basically ran shit.

The strength of your magical sperm-and-egg patterns depends on your domain (the area or organization you control), the types of holdings it has, and your overall competence. Theoretically, you could have a bloodline baker who rules her coffee shop with an iron fist, as have her ancestors for generations, but they tend to leave this shit out.

So Birthright consists of your immediate adventures, and a larger kingdom management sub-game between sessions. It gets more complicated from there, but you kids go have fun.
FrankT:

Let's not beat around the bush too much: the whole Eugenics-themed divine right of Kings by Blood thing that Birthright has going on is creepy as fuck. Also extremely disruptive to a role playing game. An RPG is an ensemble activity, which means that there are three to six co-protagonists. Which means that all this “one true king” shit is pretty hard on the role play dynamics.

But aside from the difficulties of writing an RPG with power discrepancies baked in from the beginning (which can be done, but is actually quite hard), there's the whole issue that having some people be “better” than other people because of divine mandates on their blood is actually anathema to almost every moral system subscribed to by modern humans. I say “almost” because there are still alt-right neo-reactionaries. But fuck those guys.
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Liberals, conservatives, communists, fascists, and pretty much every political moral philosophy you or anyone you know who isn't a right wing troll whose moral compass is set to “lol let's piss off progressives” subscribes to or has even heard about at least formally believes in the will of the people and/or the potential for greatness of the common man. The Divine Right of Kings is a deeply weird and not a little bit offensive doctrine to modern readers. And it only works if you believe that there is a divine plan that is good. As soon as you mix in explicitly evil gods and kings that it is right and just to overthrow, Divine Right of Kings is out the fucking window. This setting is trying to do the Crusader Kings thing of just embracing medieval philosophy, but none of the authors actually understand this medieval philosophy and we get something that is incoherent and offensive.
AncientH:

You get a very smidgen of this attitude in the difference between PCs and NPCs in oD&D, and in NPC-only classes in D&D3. You think Fighter class has it hard? Look at the Warrior. Birthright does something similar - the only real Wizards in the setting are Regent Wizards; pretty much all the other magic-users are explicitly Magicians, who can only cast low-level spells...ever...and are cutoff from the powerful War Spells and Domain Magic that was brought to full fapping fury in The Book of Magecraft.

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It's a point that is very difficult not to hammer home. In Birthright, there's a literal ceiling on what you can do. It's not quite as explicit as racial level limits (which are also in Birthright), but it's largely in the same vein. And while we might find that disturbing from an "all men are created equal" standpoint...it's also important to realize that there is a very real appeal to that idea to a lot of adolescents.

Look at mutants, in the X-Men comics. Cursed with awesome, it's not their fault but they're just better than you (indeed, in the early 90s being homo superior meant you were immune to HIV!) When you're young and have no agency, being revealed as the scion of an ancient line and heir to great powers and being special just for who you are clicks a lot of buttons. These are people that don't want to spend twenty years learning to be Batman, they want to be the Last Son of Krypton. It's an ego-trip that feeds into a desire not for acceptance but implicit elitism. If you feel like getting your Nietzsche on, it's master morality as a teenaged rebellion to slave morality.

Which is fucked.
FrankT:

Next up: Part I of this book addresses characters in the BIRTHRIGHT campaign setting. Because no one remembered to punch the typesetter in the mouth and “Part I: Birthright Characters” is not at the top of the page and also formatted shittily in all lowercase because of the previously mentioned critical lack of mouth punching.

There's three books and 228 pages to go through, but we can plow through it fairly quickly as there is a lot of redundancy.
Last edited by Ancient History on Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

The "kingdom" building game of Birthright was the major reason why I spent any time in the mid 2000's reading up on it.

The fact that BR uses "gold pounds" as its "Strategic" level of measure is kind of funny since 1 lb of gold is only 50 gp; also that the Dominions games measure gold by the pound seemed like that's the standard rate game designers & players seem to think is reasonable. More plausibly; economies should be using a "Silver Pound" as their fundamental economic unity; or the concept of "Koku" from feudal Japan that Frank has used in notes on borrowing from ACK to create a hexcrawl system.

In addition to the "divine rule" aspects being mocked; I'm sure that the actual "birthright" mechanics that can binarily "propel you to secret awesome" or "curse you with obvious badassitude" where a "Titanizing" (or w/e they call the Highlandering process in BR) either makes you an awesome version of your normal mundane self; or turns you into a badass monster; also seem pretty messed up. Mostly b/c only evil (N)PCs turn into monsters, and only good ones look like mundane humans w/ secret powers. If I remember that correctly, however.
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Post by Wiseman »

I actually was designing a thing of sorts based around this concept. Humans are by default nonmagical, but by reproducing with magical creatures (fey dragons, spirits, etc) can produce magic capable offspring. These offspring of course went to form the ruling class of the setting. There's no "Divine right" (especially since spirits are really worshiped in any typical sense) but that doesn't stop some asshole nobles from claiming that.

I'll follow this review to find out the pitfalls to avoid.
Keys to the Contract: A crossover between Puella Magi Madoka Magica and Kingdom Hearts.
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RadiantPhoenix wrote:
TheFlatline wrote:Legolas/Robin Hood are myths that have completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a bow".
The D&D wizard is a work of fiction that has a completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a book".
hyzmarca wrote:Well, Mario Mario comes from a blue collar background. He was a carpenter first, working at a construction site. Then a plumber. Then a demolitionist. Also, I'm not sure how strict Mushroom Kingdom's medical licensing requirements are. I don't think his MD is valid in New York.
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Post by Ancient History »

It's not an uncommon literary trope (Merlin was supposedly a cambion), but from a roleplaying aspect, it's a bit like playing a mudblood in a world of muggles. Giving justifiable narrative or mechanical benefits to one group within a given species just leads to Wizard Nazis.
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Post by Wiseman »

Well, this was for an original game I was planning, and all of the players would be magicians. The magocracy is meant to be somewhat of a mixed bag, with some good nobles and many dickish nobles (When you can blow up stuff with your mind, you don't really have any obligations to be fair to the non-magical folk).
Keys to the Contract: A crossover between Puella Magi Madoka Magica and Kingdom Hearts.
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RadiantPhoenix wrote:
TheFlatline wrote:Legolas/Robin Hood are myths that have completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a bow".
The D&D wizard is a work of fiction that has a completely unrealistic expectation of "uses a book".
hyzmarca wrote:Well, Mario Mario comes from a blue collar background. He was a carpenter first, working at a construction site. Then a plumber. Then a demolitionist. Also, I'm not sure how strict Mushroom Kingdom's medical licensing requirements are. I don't think his MD is valid in New York.
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Post by Ancient History »

Birthright Rulebook
Part I: Birthright Characters

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It's good to be the king.
AncientH:

For Cerilian characters, Method V from the Player's Handbook (PHB) is recommended: Roll 4d6 six times (for the character's six abilities), drop the lowest die from each roll, and assign the score to various abilities as desired.
This was actually fairly advanced for the period, let us recall. So advanced, as it happened, that this was essentially what went into 3E. You can't get more advanced than this without some flavor of priority or point-buy.

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FrankT:

This is a 28 page chapter that talks about all the ways your character is different when they start at first level as Brechtian Royal Scion instead of a peasant adventurer dwarf named Carlos. It does not get off to a very good start when it says that while there are Goblins and “graceful but dangerous elves” (that line was penned by McComb), you are allowed to pick from nine races: dwarf, elf, half-elf, halfling, and human. The mathematically inclined will note that that is only five, and that only if you count “mulatto” as a distinct “race” from human or elf. But that is because in Birthright there are five “subraces” of humans that you are obliged to pick from. The Anuireans are English and/or French, the Rjurik are Norse and/or Scots, the Brecht are Germans and/or Poles, the Khinasi are Arabs and/or Turks, and the Vos are Russians and/or Huns. Notably absent: any flavor of black people, Indians, Native Americans, or East Asians. The least white you are allowed are the Ottoman Turks. And in case you were wondering if dividing humans into “races” based closely on real world nations was going to end up a bit racist sometimes... ho yeah. Like, our Russian expies get an Int penalty. There's no nice way to talk about the implications of that.

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This setting has its own stat modifiers and racial level limits for the various races, which are different in various ways you don't care about than the PHB ones. More generally, I don't know how any of this shit is supposed to work, because none of the races just fucking tell you what they do. They talk about how they are and are not different from the races described in the Player's Handbook for that edition. But those descriptions weren't complete either. I mean, there were whole complete books for the races which gibbered on various true facts about the races that maybe kinda weren't ever mentioned anywhere else. I mean, for fuck's sake, the same author verbally jizzing about elves in this book wrote the Master Race's Handbook back in the day. Can these elves give each other bonuses by doing bee dances at each other? I have no idea. It's not like the elf praise has gotten any less effusive, it just doesn't ever bother to list item what effects choosing one race or another actually has.
Unfortunately, elves are too mindful of their superiority and treat outsiders with coldness or condescension. Cerilian elves are creatures of faerie dust and starlight, gifted with immortality and powers of mind and body beyond those of humankind.
Like, I honestly couldn't parody McComb's elf rantings if I tried. The actual gibberings he put to page about how much elves are better than you are so over the top that just quoting this shit sounds like I'm taking the piss. But it's actually like that. It's all like that.

Halflings in this setting are from a parallel universe called the shadow world. And this lets them peer into the alternate reality and detect evil and undead with a 75% chance of success. I have no fucking idea if they can just retry round after round or what. Gnomes get quietly swept away. Like, is that a deliberate design decision to remove Gnomes now that they've turned Halflings into the Ouphes from Lorwyn and no longer need a faerieish little people, or did they seriously just fucking forget to put Gnomes on the list of playables while they were getting their racism on about stupid Ruskies? I have no idea. There are actually a few mentions of Gnomes in various Birthright books, but the established fan consensus appears to be that those are mistakes given that they are factually missing from the main race listings in the box set.
AncientH:

Giving different stat modifiers out for different "races" of humanity is wrong on multiple levels. It is wrong when Conan the RPG does it, and it is wrong when D&D does it. To understand why, we need to understand a bit of real-world history.

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Before World War I, people talked about "race" concerning groupings of people we would normally define as nationalities. So there was a "German" race and a "French" race and a "British" race and an "Irish" race and "Jews" a race; Black people were a race and Native Americans were a race and all that too, but it has to be understood that a lot of the racism against Black people et al. at this period was mostly scientific; socially, before 1900 Black people and the Irish were lumped together. After WWI, things were...codified a bit. And when I say that, I mean basically the Irish and Germans and French and British people were largely lumped together as "White," and all sub-Saharan Africans and Australians as "Black," and quite a large chunk of the world as "Brown," and pretty much everybody else was "Yellow" (even Native Americans, who were most often called 'Red,' were usually lumped in with Yellow or Brown).
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I don't care what the chart says, in my house the green ones were Martians.
Now, for quite a long period of time these prejudices regarding race were widely held and firmly believed, even though about the time they were formalized science immediately began disproving them, and tl;dr Hitler committed genocide.

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We still struggle with a lot of these prejudices today, but in regards to RPG design in particular, there's some extra struggles. Not just because the concept of "race" has been retained in fantasy and science fiction to denote separate playable species, but because race fills an important, if unfortunate, niche in a lot of game design.

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The problem is differentiating between characters at chargen. Race provides an additional option, and a popular one both among players and designers. Roleplaying is an escapist pastime that enables players to be someone or something else; being a different species - or sex, or nationality - provides tremendous roleplaying opportunities, unlocks loads of potential stories and interactions, and all-around provides more variety and options to the characters that players can play (and, incidentally, allows the designers to write and sell more books).

But then, you have to assign stats. And this is where you start running into trouble. Because when you assign mechanical differences to a character option, you're opening the door to optimization and specialization - which needn't be bad, but can be subject to abuse if things aren't balanced correctly - and consequently there is also a nerf-stick that deliberately limits that character option, either subjectively to fit with the setting or objectively in the desire not to enable a particularly devastating combination.

For example, in the World of Darkness Vampire, your clan (or bloodline) determines your starting disciplines. If all goes well, you're not supposed to have access to more than one "unique" discipline (this is not always the case, but eh).

Taken to extremes, this can lead to lots of special options which are unlocked only for certain character options but not others - and from a game design standpoint, that provides incentives and disincentives for playing certain types of characters, and can be either jolly good fun or a hideous mess depending on how badly you enable it.

But it's one thing to say an Elf or a Vulcan gets +1 perception because of fantasy genetics. That's within the suspension of disbelief, and no-one is going to take personal offense at elf racial level limits except for a couple otherkin and progressive game designers. But what happens when you get -1 Intelligence for being Irish...or female?

It might sound like PC police invading D&D, but the problem is that if you give mechanical justification to why such-and-such characters are actually better or worse at some things...that's terrible. You really don't want any character to talk about how Orcs are intellectually inferior and always have been and always will be and have that be something justified by the game's mechanics. Racism as a concept is something games can play with, but you don't want to present it as a cold hard mathematical fact that French people make the best artillerymen or whatever. Because then you're just roleplaying the shit that your racist great-grandpa said.

There are ways around this little quagmire, but they're not usually easy. They involve providing options and opportunities without explicit bonuses. World of Darkness, to it's credit, was actually pretty decent about this mechanically: your Clan gave your a discount on certain Disciplines, but it didn't outright deny you the ability to go learn others. You could still min-max and say that a Lasombra was the only way to get Obtenebration 4 at chargen, but if a character wanted it badly enough and could pay the cost, they could learn Obtenebration too - not as high as the Lasombra starting off, but then that worked within the game setting.

Anyway, here's a setting where you get a Wisdom penalty for being quasi-Scottish.

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This is actually Estonia. I'm part Scottish and failed my Wis check.
FrankT:

Every class has a little writeup about how they are different. In most cases, this is that if you are a Regent (and by Regent we mean Prince or King, not necessarily Regent because fuck this book), you get some tiny men. In the case of Fighters, Clerics, and Rogues, it's like a lot of tiny men. A Thief who is also a Baron gets 4d6+10 soldiers rolled on a table that gives you troops in heavy armor 70% of the time. On the other hand, if you want to play a Bard, the authors want to tell you to go fuck yourself because you have a restricted spell list and you don't get an army.

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In Birthright, Bards are in fact lame. I don't know how much of this is due to the fact that in AD&D rules, Elves couldn't be Bards.

There's also a rant about how expansion classes, not limited to but fucking especially Psionics are not in this setting and fuck you for asking. And then there's a list of kits from other books that are allowed in the setting. I note that most of the kits from the Complete Book of Elves are not on this list. So even Colin McComb won't let you play a Bladesinger. At least, not three years later when he was tired of hearing how broken that kit was.
AncientH:

Most Rjurik follow the god Erik
Not even fucking kidding. The pseudo-Nordics of the setting follow Erik.

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The whole fucking chapter is like this, by the way. The different "races" are described like your racist great-great grandpa would describe Czechs and Hungarians and Italians during WWI. It's one small step from Bretonians.

I mentioned magicians vs. wizards before. Magicians have higher requirements and, generally, suck harder. They auto-specialize in Illusion and Divination' they have no opposition schools, but can't cast any spell above 2nd level in any other school. It is just possible to imagine that maybe Magicians could be bad-ass illusionists in their own right, until you realize that the Wizards also have defacto bloodline powers on top of being able to actually do things.

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FrankT:

There are new Proficiencies of course. I think we ranted plenty about proficiencies in our Complete Spacefarers review. This book introduces some proficiencies like Administration and Leadership that seem like they'd be pretty helpful for running a kingdom. It also has Diplomacy. And you're like “how the fuckity fucksticks did the 2nd Edition AD&D® PHB manage to not have a Diplomacy proficiency?” and the answer is that it totally did have a proficiency for that, but it happened to be called Etiquette because that was en vogue in the late 80s (Shadowrun calls its Diplomacy skill Etiquette to this day). So the “new” Diplomacy proficiency is described exactly like the old Etiquette proficiency, except this one also has explicit interaction with the domain rules. Couldn't they just have written similar interaction with the proficiency they already had? Probably!

There's a bit on various modifications to regular equipment or bits on which pieces of equipment are available where. The staff sling isn't available at all, which seems implausible but probably has to do with the authors not knowing what a staff sling was.
AncientH:

They also include siegecraft. This involves rules for siege, which are...bad.
Normally, castles are invulnerable to direct attack during the domain turn unless a company of artillerists is detailed to lead the attack.
No fire-arrows, sapping, or crawling up the garderobe for you fine fellows; just wait and starve them out.

This is especially weird as there are no arquebuses in Cerilia, and you're supposed to be smashing these castles to pieces with catapults and trebuchets, apparently. I'm not saying that can't be done, I'm just saying there's a reason why people switched to gunpowder as soon as it was feasible and put guards around the nightsoil gardens.

Also, there is a new riding animal, the varsk. The varsk is a white-furred lizard. Take a drink.

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Nope, try again.
FrankT:

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Because it's AD&D, when you decide to start playing a Birthright game you roll some dice and consult some tables to determine whether your character's bloodline is sufficiently special or not. This isn't quite the same as being able to die in character generation, but it's damn close. Bloodline strength can rise later on, but I think it's pretty obvious that starting with a Bloodline Strength of four (the minimum Table 10 can spit out) and a Bloodline Strength of sixty four (the maximum the same table can spit out) is pretty severe. Then you roll on some more charts to determine how many super powers you get as well as what they are. You might get nothing at all, and you might get something so minor you don't care. But then again, you might get Regeneration or Teleportation. You know, whatever. These charts are so fucking obviously unbalanced that I'm not sure they aren't a joke.

There's a bunch of weird ass shit about how your birth bloodline strength is based on the bloodline power of your parents when you are born, and thus shit your parents do or don't do after your birth doesn't affect your blood potency but their hijinx before your birth definitely count. Which is a really roundabout way of saying that Birthright recognizes the “Born in the Purple” concept of the Eastern Roman Empire. But the thing that really squicks the fuck out of me is the idea of bloodlines being better if they are “true.” A bloodline is “true” if all your ancestors are descendants of the same ancient hero. Which um... means that you're an incest baby? Or at the very least that your ancestors bedded their siblings and it's been cousin humping ever since. There are of course examples in history where the divine blood of kings concept got taken to this logical conclusion, but it's super fucked up.

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Only Lannister seed is good enough for this womb!
AncientH:

Mechanically, the system looks a lot like rolling a random artifact in the Encyclopedia Magica

The major complication to this whole bloodline business (as if it needed it), is that if a scion kills another scion, scion 1 may get some of scion 2's bloodline points, especially if scion 2 was lucky enough to be wielding a rare elf fapping weapon with an unpronounceable name. This provides the general Highlander incentive, as well as giving a reason why the kings and barons should actually take to the battlefield and duke shit out instead of just sending their respective armies to have a go.

I mean, King John of Bohemia took the field at Crecy despite being fucking blind - he strapped himself between two other dudes and road out into battle like a boss, because he thought the majesty of royalty would protect him or some shit. That didn't work and he was captured by the Black Prince, who spared his life and held him for ransom. That wouldn't happen in Cerilia. Your ass is a power-up if you get captured in battle.

And before you ask: no commoners can't Highlander themselves into being blooded.
FrankT:

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Cue soundtrack by Queen.

The Highlander stuff involves a lot of math. If you kill other bloodline kings in certain ways you get a quickening and this moves a few points around. If you use the special magic swords built by elves (because of course they are) that are extra good at quickenings, you get even more scion power.

You need a magic sword to get the ball really rolling, but there's totally a way to Cronos your way to real ultimate power by knocking up some ladies and then killing your own babies. It's not complicated or anything, just gross.

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AncientH:

Unblooded commoners get a +10% bonus for basically having to serve another player character. Fuck that.
FrankT:

Next up: In the BIRTHRIGHT campaign setting, each player can choose to play a regent – a character who rules his own domain. Was it too fucking hard to put “Part II: Domains” at the top of the page like a not-insane person?
Last edited by Ancient History on Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by erik »

Ancient History wrote:AncientH:
Not even fucking kidding. The pseudo-Nordics of the setting follow Erik.
Makes sense to me.
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Post by OgreBattle »

This Divine Right of Nazisraelis setting feels appropriately repugnant for playing your usual D&D orc/dorf/elf, but I could see it working if you're playing as demons/devils/reploids tearing each other's hearts out to power yourself up
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Post by JonSetanta »

I tried Birthright back in the days of yore (AD&D, late 90s) and it indeed was everything you guys write here, only far less about Israel because I wasn't interested in politics as much back then.

We got as far as one session before the unanimous vote, except for the player that owned the material, was to STOP PLAYING BIRTHRIGHT and go back to dungeoneering with a party.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
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Post by souran »

I think you guys are overestimating the squick factor associated with the birthright element of the birthright campaign setting.

I have not found players (or people even) completely adverse to "better than you" people in their fantasy literature/RPGs. The reason there is so much elf wankery is because their are so many elf fanboys that love the idea of a bunch of skinny bitch-ass know-it-alls who are better at everything than all the lesser folk they have to deal with every day.

Beyond that though, people don't think that Harry Potter is fucked up because being a wizard is genetic and simply cannot be taught to somebody who doesn't have the right blood. They just simply fantasize about being in the have group. Same thing with Jedi, or wheel of time, or dune, or even freaking Game of Thrones and in that story the nobles don't have superpowers other than being the center of attention in the story.

2E D&D itself was rather coy about if arcane spell casting could actually be taught or required some innate gift. I know for sure that its not learnable by "anyone" in 2E Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and Dark Sun. Divine magic in D&D is explicitly a matter of being a superior being in every setting except for Ebberon because your deity literally chooses to grant you spells.

This "better than everybody by birth" idea also happens to be a central element of each of the 3 core white wolf lines in both their old and new versions. So the idea that modern players would recoil from it is defiantly not supported with the evidence.

As long as people get to play the superior beings they don't really give a crap about what the game is saying about meritocracy or even really feel any kind of cognitive dissonance between their real beliefs and the pleasure derived from wish fulfillment diametrically opposed to those beliefs.

I first tried birthright in 1997 when I was in the 8th grade. I had a group of about 8 friends that I played warhammer/Magic with and of those 8, I had a regular D&D group with myself and 5 others. Of the six of us, all of whom played wargames, only 2 people (myself and 1 other person) were at all interested in this setting. All the others were bored to fucking tears by the idea of kingdom management.

When you try and make D&D a wargame there will be people who are turned off because it is not a high enough quality wargame and they could spend their time playing a well devised wargame. There will also be people who enjoy D&D who do not like wargames as a matter of preference.

I think one of the reasons birthright failed is because in most places there are not enough people who wanted to have their D&D game layered on top of a shitty version of axis and allies. That group of people is small and better served by CRPGs that can do the bookkeeping.
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Post by Mechalich »

There are good ways and bad ways to do 'power you are born with.' Birthright manages to have the worst of pretty much all options.

Some better practices:
- Having the powers be random in origin. If you're awesome because you're lucky that's less elitist than if its because you are chosen. Birthright's chosen are explicitly inheriting power from legendary figures.

- Don't let people breed the powers. Once you can breed the powers you've created a literal master race. Giving people justification for having a horrible superiority complex by actually being superior is terrible. So of course Birthright's powers are all about the breeding.

- Give out potential for power rather than just straight up power. If your a Jedi or a WoT channeler you have to train, a lot, to learn to use your powers. The training even happens to suck, and has a decent chance of causing horrible things to happen to you that can only happen to people with your power. In D&D this would presumably be represented by buying powers with XP or even proficiency slots or something, but nope, in Birthright you just get them.


Also, though its unrelated to 'born with power' allowing people to 'murder for power' is also terrible most of the time, mostly because it afflicts any setting where you can do this with horribly perverse incentives, like oh, impregnating a bunch of peasant women so that they have blooded children and then murdering them all once they manifest their abilities in order to highlander you way to power via your own offspring.

Linking 'phenomenal cosmic power' to 'phenomenally insane body count' is pretty much always the road to grimderp.
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Post by JonSetanta »

The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
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Post by Blicero »

Frank wrote: I mean, King John of Bohemia took the field at Crecy despite being fucking blind - he strapped himself between two other dudes and road out into battle like a boss, because he thought the majesty of royalty would protect him or some shit. That didn't work and he was captured by the Black Prince, who spared his life and held him for ransom. That wouldn't happen in Cerilia. Your ass is a power-up if you get captured in battle.
The wikipedia article you link to does not agree with your account of Crecy.
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Post by Silent Wayfarer »

So basically the route to Real Ultimate Power in Birthright is to fuck your twin sister and take turns murdering the offspring with an elf weapon until you have super godlike ultra bloodline. Right?
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Post by Orca »

@SW: Pretty sure that'd turn you, the twin, and/or the offspring into a horrific monster in Birthright. The process usually requires that there be at least a bit of the corruption of the bad guy's bloodline, whose name I forget, but given that 1/ you can get such a taint in your bloodline by killing off someone with a corrupt bloodline and 2/ your production line seems designed to concentrate corruption... Monster time.
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Post by Username17 »

Silent Wayfarer wrote:So basically the route to Real Ultimate Power in Birthright is to fuck your twin sister and take turns murdering the offspring with an elf weapon until you have super godlike ultra bloodline. Right?
If you are fucking your twin sister you don't need to use an elf weapon because the babby will have a bloodline equal to yours so you can just take turns with infanticide for +2 blood potence a pop. You'd need some life extension or to be Dwarves because you'd have to have your twin sister give birth about fifty times to crank both your blood potence up to the point where you get divine powers that aren't even listed in the box set.

The elf weapon lets you do it way faster - just two babies each if you're sister-fucking and four babies if you're just knocking up random commoners.

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Post by Ancient History »

Blicero wrote:
Frank wrote: I mean, King John of Bohemia took the field at Crecy despite being fucking blind - he strapped himself between two other dudes and road out into battle like a boss, because he thought the majesty of royalty would protect him or some shit. That didn't work and he was captured by the Black Prince, who spared his life and held him for ransom. That wouldn't happen in Cerilia. Your ass is a power-up if you get captured in battle.
The wikipedia article you link to does not agree with your account of Crecy.
Yes, yes, whatever.
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Post by Bertie Wooster »

Can anyone explain to me a joke about peasant dwarf adventurer named Carlos?
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Post by Longes »

Bertie Wooster wrote:Can anyone explain to me a joke about peasant dwarf adventurer named Carlos?
I'm going to guess - this.
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Post by Starmaker »

souran wrote:I have not found players (or people even) completely adverse to "better than you" people in their fantasy literature/RPGs.
Why hello there. (I've met people who hate power fantasies. They're not the D&D audience, but they exist.)
souran wrote:The reason there is so much elf wankery is because their are so many elf fanboys that love the idea of a bunch of skinny bitch-ass know-it-alls who are better at everything than all the lesser folk they have to deal with every day.
Elf fanboys are also recognized as a class and laughed at in tabletop, because this archetype is a problem in a cooperative storytelling game, unless your whole party is elf fanboys, and maybe even then.
souran wrote:Beyond that though, people don't think that Harry Potter is fucked up because being a wizard is genetic and simply cannot be taught to somebody who doesn't have the right blood. They just simply fantasize about being in the have group.
Harry Potter is an anomalous massive marketing juggernaut; its popularity is not evidence of quality. Furthermore, nothing about either the story or the marketing relies on genetic wizardry; it's just an old tired trope that Rowling used because it was an old tired trope back then, too, and she's a shitty writer. (And it's still not as shitty as Birthright: it's not possible to breed for power, and the people who try are the bad guys.) As for fan appeal, I'd say doublethinking your Hogwarts letter might still come IRL is more appealing than blatant counterfactuality.
Children fantasize about having been adopted because were brought up on the same shitty tropes and don't know any better. To them, parents define the world, and wishing for a better world easily leads to wishing for "better" parents.
souran wrote:Same thing with Jedi
David Brin's Star Wars article may not be enough to vote this election, but it can enlist (with parental consent). Also, I don't need to remind you that people hated midichlorians. The most beloved version of Jedi powers is based on mystical bullshit. It's a bad world to fantasize about in preference to the real one, but in-universe, the notion that consistently doing good makes you a more capable good-doer is kinda progressive. Even if Star Wars isn't especially committed to egalitarianism, what with everyone being sekritly a babby of everyone else, if you tell a kid point blank she can't be a Jedi because her father isn't one, she's going to be fucking pissed.
souran wrote:This "better than everybody by birth" idea also happens to be a central element of each of the 3 core white wolf lines in both their old and new versions. So the idea that modern players would recoil from it is defiantly not supported with the evidence.
The main draw of World of Darkness is doing things in what is ostensibly the real world and make use of its rich setting, backstory, and the meaning with which achievements are inherently invested. This means you need a way to kickstart humans into exponential supernatural awesomeness and a reason for the world to stay roughly the same -- but those are game design constraints, not player motivations.
The stereotypical Vampire protagonist is a random lowlife and a victim of violent crime. And then it turns out the vampire hierarchy is even more oppressive than the RL one, BUT, you can totally cheat/lie/manipulate/eat your way to the top.
Werewolf would be massively improved by consensual incest and is NOT a good baseline for tolerable squick.
Mage is where you decide you are no longer one of the sheeple and become awesome by dint of that.
souran wrote:As long as people get to play the superior beings they don't really give a crap about what the game is saying about meritocracy or even really feel any kind of cognitive dissonance between their real beliefs and the pleasure derived from wish fulfillment diametrically opposed to those beliefs.
The most popular fantasy RPG is one with a stark exponential advancement scheme based on killing genetically superior entities. If the game is not meritocratic and superior genetics win, you get fucking roasted and eaten, possibly with ketchup. You're making an argument straight out of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named's book if you believe a game can generate zero to hero stories without having it encoded in mechanics.

And yes, I care if people are born with "heroic potential" as in Birthright or just work hard to get to 20. If my character's goal is climbing atop the social hierarchy, the underlying assumption is that there's a social hierarchy to climb. If it's inherently stable with better-than-yous on top and my character lost the genetic lottery, he's eternally consigned to sucking DMPC cock. If he won, he's presumably accidentally fallen through the cracks and must regain his "rightful" place among the assholes. Both stories, from a power fantasy perspective, are strictly inferior to one where he and his friends from level 1 get to create a new social order with those assholes at the bottom. The best outcome with better-than-yous is you as the CFO of Mylan getting to share in the sweet price-gouging. The best meritocratic outcome is free epipens and Heather Bresch pouring you coffee.
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Post by Longes »

David Brin's Star Wars article may not be enough to vote this election, but it can enlist (with parental consent). Also, I don't need to remind you that people hated midichlorians. The most beloved version of Jedi powers is based on mystical bullshit. It's a bad world to fantasize about in preference to the real one, but in-universe, the notion that consistently doing good makes you a more capable good-doer is kinda progressive. Even if Star Wars isn't especially committed to egalitarianism, what with everyone being sekritly a babby of everyone else, if you tell a kid point blank she can't be a Jedi because her father isn't one, she's going to be fucking pissed.
It's not like Jedi thing is hereditary in any version of Star Wars. Anakin has no dad and was created by an evil space wizard (probably). Luke is a Jedi, but Leia isn't. And we never hear anything about parents of any other jedi character. And we probably never will because potential jedi are kidnapped by the order while they are still infants.
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Post by erik »

Longes wrote:
David Brin's Star Wars article may not be enough to vote this election, but it can enlist (with parental consent). Also, I don't need to remind you that people hated midichlorians. The most beloved version of Jedi powers is based on mystical bullshit. It's a bad world to fantasize about in preference to the real one, but in-universe, the notion that consistently doing good makes you a more capable good-doer is kinda progressive. Even if Star Wars isn't especially committed to egalitarianism, what with everyone being sekritly a babby of everyone else, if you tell a kid point blank she can't be a Jedi because her father isn't one, she's going to be fucking pissed.
It's not like Jedi thing is hereditary in any version of Star Wars. Anakin has no dad and was created by an evil space wizard (probably). Luke is a Jedi, but Leia isn't. And we never hear anything about parents of any other jedi character. And we probably never will because potential jedi are kidnapped by the order while they are still infants.
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Post by Ancient History »

Lots of players like to play the special snowflake. Lots of them like to think that the power was in them all along, or that they're the chosen one, or that by random accident of fate they have been cursed with awesome. There are ways to do this without making it hereditary or playing directly into outmoded ideas of divine right and racism. Birthright does not do this.
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Post by schpeelah »

Even when it's hereditary, you can still make it not work like real life groups that tried to use these sort of justifications. Harry Potter wizards are a de facto superior race, but people don't have much of a problem with that because the wizards are part a conspiracy mostly a parallel world, rather than an overclass ruling the inferior races. With the unfortunate exception of the house elf issue.

Birthright on the other hand just takes medieval nobility and plays it straight.
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Post by Ancient History »

Birthright Rulebook
Part II: Domains

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Nope. They had a Baywatch marathon on yesterday.
AncientH:

In retrospect, I'm sort of surprised that Birthright's domains were never ever combined with Ravenloft's domains. I mean, I get that Birthright was generally not part of the rest of the D&D multiverse in the same sense as Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Spelljammer, and Planescape, but it still seems like an oversight.

Anyway, this is the section where you would maybe think that, having just semi-randomly generated your character, you would now semi-randomly generate your domain. This...is not quite the case.
FrankT:

This 41 page chapter is the longest of the book because the Regency rules are the selling point of the whole game. Without the Regency rules, not a single fucking person would remember that the not-Germans of this setting were called Brecht or that the not-Russians of this setting were called Vos. This setting does not live or die because of its Regency rules – this setting fucking died because it was warmed over AD&D shit that was tired in nineteen eighty five, but the only reason anyone gave a shit then or gives a shit now is the rules for Regency. I don't know if I will ever get tired of grumbling about how Regency does not represent Regency in the plain English meaning of the term. Like, it really bothers me that they insist on writing “Regent” when they mean “Regnant.” I don't know why this particular piece of terminology fail bothers me more than Krynnian Paladins swinging hauberks at people, but it does.

Anyway, Birthright doubles down on the weird ass alignment millstone that D&D carries around with it by making sure that you know that you get extra Regency Points not by being a good ruler, but by being a ruler consistent with your alignment. So a good king gets bonuses for being good, and an evil king gets bonuses for being senselessly wicked. But there are also Chaotic Neutral kings, who get to be more powerful and respected by successfully emphasizing their deep philosophical commitment to “whatever.” I don't know how that's supposed to work.

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I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.

The game assures you that you can play a ruler, a blooded non-ruler, or a commoner. This is true in the sense that you can play a Fighter and voluntarily go into battle without any arrows for your bow or swap out your sword for a rusty spoon. The game won't actually stop you from doing that, but pretending these are co-equal options is ridiculous. In Birthright, being a scion is better than not being a scion, and having a domain is better than not having one. The game even straight up gives you extra hit points for having a domain. There is literally no advantage to being lower on the hill. Shit rolls down that hill. The game does try to convince you that being actually at the bottom where you are not a scion at all and have no powers is a viable life choice and you get some bonus XP. But this is a damn trap.
As a ruler, he has access to money and resources that other beginning characters cannot tap.
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It's just better being at the higher rungs of social classes. The fact that you get rained on 10% less doesn't matter.
AncientH:

Okay, so they start out describing the Domain rules, which basically boils down to the fact that Domains have levels (0-7) which represent general population and organization (<1k for level 0, up to >100k for level 7). The PCs select their domain from a list - which is a bit like picking your starting province in Dominions 4 - or they can custom-build one using the rules in the the Appendix. I honestly don't know why they did it this way instead of "roll d100 three times, consult the tables, and fluff it out" but that's what we've got to work with.

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The term "province" are used basically synonymous with the term Domain, because nobody was really fucked to decide on the difference.

In a domain/province are holdings, which come in four flavors: guilds, law, sources (magic resource), and temples. Most domains have a number of "slots" in each of these four categories equal to their level. So if you have a level 0 domain, you are fucked. If you have a level 4 domain, you can have up to 16 holdings.

Just because you control the domain, doesn't mean you control the holdings. You can, in fact, control holdings in multiple domains, and you can control some of them while other regents control others. So in a domain (2) with 4 temple holdings, you can control 2 and somebody else could control 2. I think this was designed to encourage political shenanigans, or maybe to divvy up power in a domain between different PCs (yeah, sure, he's the baron, but I control all the fucking guilds, ho ho ho)...however, there's an added wrinkled in that the number of regents who control holdings is limited by the level of the domain.

So this thing was supposed to be like in the Middle Ages, where the church or a powerful merchant could own pieces of property throughout many different areas despite whatever lord had nominal authority over the area, but it's been "simplified" into fuckedness and then that was double fucked by unnecessary restrictions.

We might like to think of these "holdings" like the buildings in Lords of Magic or something like that, but they're much more...abstract. "Law" holdings, for example, represent sources of applying law or lawlessness. So they can represent bandits or guardsmen or tax collectors, and it's all very vague.

One particular exception are Sources, which are sources of magical power. The more densely built-up a domain is (i.e. the higher the level), the lower the maximum level of the Source. I don't pretend to understand how this works, because from my understanding a Level 0 province should have no holdings but have a theoretical maximum source level of 8, and the example they give involves an 8th level domain which is literally off the scale they gave earlier. I'm going to presume they detail this later, because I have no fucking clue. Anyway, wizard lords can use sources to cast realm spells.

Anything that isn't a holding in a domain is an Asset. This includes armies, ley lines, castles, fortifications, trade routes, and lieutenants. I have no idea how any of that really works with anything else. I personally might have included important mines, the tax base, really good brothels, things like that, but obviously I didn't write this.
FrankT:

Domains are a province with holdings, which is not actually a bad way to set about doing this sort of thing. The typical province is between the size of Dorset (627k acres) and Suffolk (919k acres). And I use English Counties because the assumption is that you are going to be playing in Not-England. The other book, Ruins of Empire gives a writeup of every single province in Not-England, and we'll get to that part of the review later. So unlike ACKS, the province sizes are totally acceptable. You get to get your War of the Roses on because you have genuine provinces of reasonable size. The basic province has a population level of 0 to 7+ (maybe 10 is the max? I dunno, the chart goes to “7 or greater” and other shit is talking about shit that kicks in at Province Level 9), a loyalty level (which is on a 1-4 scale but the levels are named “rebellious” to , holdings which either belong to the ruler or someone else, and assets. This is a perfectly reasonable way to abstract things.

Provinces have a number of slots for their holdings equal to their population level, which is a fine arrangement. The game chokes on its own dick by telling you that provinces can only split their holdings three ways between different Regents. That's a very weird and arbitrary distinction, but more importantly remember that 3 is the low end of a D&D party size. It's obvious that a three person party could have the Baron, Bishop, and Guildmaster as the three players who are all powers in a single province. But what the shitfuck are you supposed to do if there are four to six players as there usually are. Fuck!

Still, while the parts of this book dedicated to D&D character generation and party play have been uniformly horrible, the basic setup of a province is pretty decent. If you were intending to use this as something other than a Dungeons & Dragons add-on, the foundation doesn't look horrible. If you scaled things out a bit so the different players were the leaders of allied provinces rather than characters who were expected to adventure together, you could work with this.

Holdings have four types: Thief Guild, Fighter Law, Wizard Source, and Priest Temple. Each holding type does its thing and also does something special for one of the four classes the writer wants you to play. Not actually a bad setup at all. Guilds are specifically fungible. It does not matter if you have a brewers guild or an assassins guild. They make money whether you are exporting carriage accidents or murder. Which is a perfectly acceptable level of abstraction.

Assets are a bit more fluid. You got armies, courts, fortifications, ley lines, lieutenants, roads, and trade routes. Some of those get ratings 1-10. Not bad for a first or even third draft, but there are some obvious places to simplify. Obviously there's no real benefit to having a mana generation holding (the “Source” holding) and a mana generation asset (the “Ley Line” asset). These are extremely similar conceptually and should just be merged somehow. Further, I'm totally not sold on modeling skilled NPC henchmen as province assets. I get the thinking there, but lieutenants can pretty definitely walk from one province to another same as your characters can. They should obviously be accoutrements of the ruler rather than the province. And roads are... debatable. You aren't tracking every road and mule track in your kingdom, you're tracking major connections between one province and another. A controllable asset that lets you move troops from one province to another in an easier way. That's fine. But terminology wise we should be using something more
generic that encompasses navigable rivers and teleportation gates and shit. And trade routes are acceptable, but it's weird that we don't also have an asset that just makes wealth – I mean, where are our gem mines?

So this isn't as polished as I'd like it to be, but it's a decent piece. Your multi-province dominion fits in a stat block in a quarter of the page allowing you to put your domain onto the actual character sheet or fill the rest of the page with map doodles.
AncientH:

Frank and I covered the same things a little differently, which I think is valuable because I have a much more negative view of this whole mess. Honestly, I want a sort GURPS take on the whole situation.

The first sample domain doesn't quite break the rules, but it confuses the fuck out of me. The "domain" in this case includes three provinces with their respective holdings and assets, and also constitutes a "realm" into itself. I suppose this means that what I said earlier about domain == province was wrong, but fucked if I'm going back to edit it at this point. I guess it would be more accurate to say that a Domain covers "an area" which may or may not be broken up into various provinces, and a "realm" consists of one or more Domains which are politically independent. So...uh...I guess you could argue that the United Kingdom is a Realm, and each county is a separate province, and...well, I don't actually know that that works at all. Is the whole UK the Queen's domain, or does each Duke have their separate domain (which includes multiple provinces) and she's just got direct control (her Domain) of certain provinces while being the titular head of the Realm?

The sample domain also includes a level-0 holding, and I don't know what that means in the context of...anything. I mean, I vaguely noted earlier when it said "level 0 holdings don't count in these totals," but I still don't know what a level 0 holding is. Is a level 0 temple a forgotten shrine? Is a level 0 law resource a dude that collects a toll across the bridge? Is a level 0 source a vaguely erotic natural rock that all the satyrs jizz on when they get lonely? I have no idea.
FrankT:

The currency of the domain game is the Gold Bar, or GB. I don't actually know why the GB is necessary. You already use the Gold Piece for player characters doing their thing, and you could just as easily put a few zeroes at the end of domain level costs and call it a day. Alternately, it seems like they could have used the £ symbol because that's what it's actually for? I mean, they want people to start in what is pretty explicitly “Not-England” and why the fuck aren't we using the actual English symbol that is legitimately for exactly this?

The other currency you have is the Regency Point. Which should be Regnant Points, but they keep fucking that chicken. That chicken is like super fucked right now. You get Regency Points for having the right kind of holdings. Which encourages fighters to delegate major temples to bishops and shit, so that's a flavor win I should point out. There are also rules for spending your RP to jack up your bloodline strength and complicated systems of shipping your points back and forth through vassalage, and that's not as good.

I don't actually have a problem with the Regency Points from a gross mechanical standpoint. Mostly you accumulate them for owning appropriate shit or completing goals and you can spend them to take political actions. The whole Divine Right shit that justifies it all is crap, but it's a reasonable abstraction for giving political actions a cost.

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Like, you'd have actions like courting a highborn lady or something, and you'd have to spend some of your gravitas points to make that happen. Seems legit.
AncientH:

Each Domain Turn, you generate a number of Regency Points equal to your sum total regency in all provinces and holdings, or your bloodline strength, whichever is lower. I guess this is to encourage you to go stab people instead of slowly and carefully shepherding your power and building up your provinces.

Taking control of another province requires a ceremonial Investiture ceremony, presumably to keep PCs from just knocking over the Little Keep on the Borderlands and declaring themselves petty kings.

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You can also have regents that pledge loyalty through oaths of vassalage to work out a quasi-feudal system. This probably works about as well as it did in real life, where it broke down frequently and hilariously. But it also lets you make administrative divisions in your realm, which is sort of necessary because 1) apparently you can't change a province, 2) you can only take 3 actions per domain turn, regardless of how many provinces you have.

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Needs a time turner.
FrankT:

The basic framework of time is that each year is divided into four seasons and there are month long game turns, so the turn “mid-winter” follows “early winter” and precedes “late winter” and there are seasonal as well as monthly events and actions. That's... pretty good.

The actual nomenclature is pants on head retarded. The seasons are called Domain Turns, while the actual turns are called action rounds, and that's just bad. The thing where taxes are collected and political points accumulate once per season while armies move once per month is very civilized. It lets people do things without have to calculate tax losses until an offensive is won or lost. But the nomenclature isn't good. Obviously the “action rounds” should be called “turns.” Or months. I don't even care. Action Round is a bad name.
AncientH:

Domain Turns happen when adventures don't. That's the long and the short. It lets you find the assassin or destroy the goblin camp or investigate the haunted ruin without fucking about with how the crops are doing or whether the river is going to flood its banks. The sequence of events is...not good:

1. Roll random events.
2. Determine Domain Initiative
3. Collect Regency Points
4. Taxation, Collection, and Trade
5. Pay Maintenance Costs
6. Declare Free Actions
7. First Action Round
7a, Domain Actions
7b. War Moves
7c. Fight Battles
7d. Occupation or Retreat
8. Second Action Round (repeat a-d)
9. Third Action Round (repeat a-d)
10. Adjust Loyalty and Regency

...that's just fucked. That's more fucked than c.1995 Magic: the Gathering. I mean, at least in Dominions 4 your overall limitation are the movement points of your various assets and your personal micromanagement interest, but all the movement and battles actually happen simultaneously, so there's no need for this initiative BS. This is just...where the fuck to start? Why is it so arbitrary? I mean, I can genuinely see why you'd start out with collect taxes (Draw a card), and pay expenses (upkeep), and I can grok the random event, I just...I don't know why there are three Action Rounds, except that for whatever reason they were taking D&D combat as a model.
FrankT:

There are too many fiddly bits. Also too many things are randomized that shouldn't be. I mean, like whoa. There is a chart where you compare the holding level to the population level to determine how much it generates. And there is a spot where if you go up one population level the collection rate goes from 1d6 (average 3.5) to 2d3 (average 4). Fuck you. If you find yourself having written a chart like that, you need to go rethink your life.

Obviously you should never ever roll 2d3 to determine seasonal tax receipts from the coopers guild. That should just never happen.

Similarly, I don't see the point in having maintenance costs separate from tax revenues for the same holdings. I think you should just assume the revenues are profits, and include the normal operating costs as negatives to the gross that you don't normally get to see. If you want to take all the monies home in a santa sack while letting the temple fall apart from neglect, that should be a management choice to increase revenues at the cost of wear and tear events on the holdings.
AncientH:

There are 13 random events (14 if you count "No Event") which are spread out over a d20 roll and a sprawling sidebar that crosses something like 6 pages. I don't think this was anybody's first layout choice, I think they just didn't want to lose track of their precious 10-point turn order by delving into the nitty gritty of each event - which, frankly, are rather generic, and range from a "blood challenge" or "assassination" to "Natural Event," "Diplomatic Matter," or "Magical Event." Which are about as generic as you would imagine. All the work - and I mean all the fucking work - is left to Mister Cavern.
FrankT:

I don't think we're going to finish this in one, because there's the whole actions and war step, which will get its own post.
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