Dragonlance 3.X: Unfucking The Wizard of High Sorcery PrC

[Neurosis]

Wizard of High Sorcery is a prestige class that came with the 3.X Dragonlance Campaign Setting, which was apparently fucked from the jump because they republished a slightly different version in the Towers of High Sorcery sourcebook.

It appears starting on page 22 of that book.

Because it's basically the only PrC available to serious monoclass Wizards in Dragonlance and because Wizards that get past 5th level essentially HAVE to take it, I would like it to work and be good. Ideally, because Wizard is my favorite class, and has been even before I learned they were horribly broken compared to fighters (i.e. before I joined the Den back in 2010), I would like it to be at least as good as the Archmage PRC or the cheese-spattered broken-as-shit Incantatrix PrC from Magic of Faerun.

When you join, obviously, you become either a red robe (Neutral), a white robe (Good), or a black robe (Evil). Because, as discussed in my other thread, Dragonlance is dumb and alignments literally wear their team colors.

As a Wizard PrC White Mage/Red Mage/Black Mage is not COMPLETELY unworkable. It gives full arcane spellcasting progression, at least. But it has some real issues when dealing with specializations.

Namely, if you're a non specialist wizard when you jump on board, you are FORCED to become a specialist wizard. Your specialization must be one of the ones that your "Order" favors: Abjuration or Divination for White Mages, Transmutation or Illusion for Red Mages, and Necromancy or Enchantment for Black Mages. That means you are forced to take two prohibited schools. As by PhB RAW, no one can take Divination as a prohibited school. It is implied, if not outright stated, that you're not supposed to take one of your "favored" schools as a prohibited school either.

Functionally, this means that a White Mage needs to pick two of Transmutation, Illusion, Necromancy, Enchantment, Conjuration, and Evocation to be banned.

A Red Mage needs to pick two of Abjuration, Necromancy, Enchantment, Conjuration, and Evocation to be banned.

A Black Mage needs to pick two of Abjuration, Transmutation, Illusion, Conjuration, and Evocation to be banned.

So far, not so retarded, but if you're already a specialist wizard (which the even retardeder version of the PrC that came with the basic Dragonlance campaign required, you get a +1 to CL and a +1 to Save DCs for your favored school, and pick a THIRD banned school. This is really really bad for Wizards, whose entire class appeal is being a very, very broad toolbox.

Double specialization means that a White Mage needs to pick three of Transmutation, Illusion, Necromancy, Enchantment, Conjuration, and Evocation to be banned. Losing Necromancy is very whatever. Losing Evocation is arguably whatever (although unlike a lot of Denners, I like my wizards to be able to throw fireballs). I feel like then losing Transmutation, Illusion, Enchantment, or Conjuration on top of those is fucking crippling.

A double specialized Red Mage needs to pick three of Abjuration, Necromancy, Enchantment, Conjuration, and Evocation to be banned. Losing Necromancy is whatever. Losing Evocation is see above. And then you need to lose either Abjuration (which has both the Dispel Magic and Anti-Magic progressions and a lot of other stuff you want/need), Enchantment (which has all the good "save or lose" and "save or be my bitch") spells or Conjuration (which has planar binding and summon monster and teleport) which I am 100% positive is VERY crippling. If you're a Red Mage who's say, already a Transmuter (like Felgrane was), you literally cripple your character as soon as you take a level in this PRC.

A double specialized Black Mage needs to pick three of Abjuration, Transmutation, Illusion, Conjuration, and Evocation to be banned. Losing Evocation is arguably whatever (see above). You can live without Illusion, sure (although the Invisibility progression sure is nice as a panic button). But again, same problem: then you need to lose Transmutation (which you want) or Conjuration (which you REALLY want), which fucking sucks.

The answer is obviously "don't double-specialize", but the PrC has issues beyond that. Namely, it doesn't do much for you. At 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 10th levels you get "Order Secrets" which are kind of meta-metamagic things. At the other levels, the PrC doens't do much for you at all. But a lot of the Order Secrets are useless or don't make sense. Examples:

* The first Order Secret that Red Robes are likely to unlock is "Magic of Change" which lets them spontaneously Extend or Empower a transmutation spell three times per day. The "Extend" half is all well and good, but name me five or even three transmutation spells that you even CAN Empower.

* The first Order Secrets that White Robes are unlikely to unlock is "Magic of Defense" which lets them spontaneously Extend or Empower an abjuration spell three times per day. Again, the Extend is nice, but name me any abjuration spells that can be meaningfully Empowered? I know I can't think of any.

Advice from Den mechanics experts on how to unfuck the PrC without accidentally making overpowered? Please help me turn this shit sandwich into a delicious meatball hoagie on the order of Archmage.

[angelfromanotherpin]

It doesn't have to be a PrC at all, it certainly wasn't in 2nd edition days. You can just have the Test be a thing that you can take at a certain level: if you don't, NPC mages will be snotty to you; if you do, you get some extra spells known (like, an extra spell of your second-highest castable level each time you ding) because you have nebulous access to better labs and libraries.

[Blicero]

Yeah, I don't know why you need to have a prestige class called "Wizard of High Sorcery". If its as-written implementation contained some kernel of a good idea, then I can maybe see the point of "fixing" the PrC. But it does not sound like it does.

Just use archmages and seven veil people and shit. It's 2016. Margaret Weis is not going to come to your house and arrest you for profaning the sacredness of the setting.

[Neurosis]

I like the basic idea of a PrC where White Robes and Red Robes and Black Robes get different bennies. I just wish it was written less shittily.

It's funny, I actually met Margaret Weis just over a week ago. I'm still not worried she's gonna come to my house and arrest me. She seems pretty busy.

Broaden Discussion: Does anyone disagree with me that taking conjuration or enchantment as a prohibited school is a really bad call and that taking abjuration, illusion, transmutation or even evocation as a prohibited school is a conditionally bad move that can really, really limit your options?

[angelfromanotherpin]

Broaden Discussion: Does anyone disagree with me that taking conjuration or enchantment as a prohibited school is a really bad call and that taking abjuration, illusion, transmutation or even evocation as a prohibited school is a conditionally bad move that can really, really limit your options?

Losing Enchantment isn't a particularly big deal, especially if you still have Illusion, and vice versa. Abjuration isn't a big deal until after the game goes nuts anyway. Evocation is absolutely skippable. Trans and Conj are the ones that really hurt, but even then I think you could get by with only one of them.

The thing is that a Wizard's toolbox has so many good bits in it that even someone with as few spells known as the Sorcerer is still a viable character. I think you've just fallen into the value trap where people assign inordinate worth to having more choices, even if they never use them.

[Chamomile]

Honestly, restricting access to their vast spell list is something 3.X Wizards desperately need. Magic schools are not an effective means of doing that, but it's something that needs to happen and the fact that the choice is hard means that they're at least vaguely on the right track. That said, there does not need to be a prestige class for Wizards of High Sorcery, or for the Knights of Solamnia, and certainly not three different PrCs for each of the three orders within the Knights of Solamnia. Those are just factions that are made up exclusively of Wizards and Paladins or Fighters, respectively.

[Blicero]

The double specialization was how some alternative class feature from Complete Mage worked, right? Just slightly less restricted than the Dragonlance version. I don't think that ACF was viewed as being horrifically unplayable compared to the standard generalist or specialized wizard.

And there exist PrCs intended for specialist wizards. Is there anything stopping you from saying "Only White Robes can be Initiates of the Sevenfold Veil, only Black Robes can be Pale Masters, etc..."? It does not sound like there is a whole lot of flavor implied by the Wizard of High Sorcery deal other than the specialized schools.

[Grek]

but name me five or even three transmutation spells that you even CAN Empower.

Pyrotechnics, Flame Arrow, Disintegrate, Control Weather, Time Stop.

Again, the Extend is nice, but name me any abjuration spells that can be meaningfully Empowered? I know I can't think of any.

Explosive Runes. Spell Turning.

[hogarth]

It doesn't have to be a PrC at all, it certainly wasn't in 2nd edition days.

Are you sure it wasn't one of those pre-3E proto-PrCs like the 1E Bard? The 1E AD&D Knight of Solamnia class sure as hell was -- you needed to take a combination of levels in Knight of the Crown --> Rose --> Sword. See here for details: http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/char/clas015.html

EDIT: It looks like the 1E Wizard of High Sorcery worked in a similar way: http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/char/clas030.html

[angelfromanotherpin]

I think that's actually the 2nd ed version someone's backcomping into their 1e game, and I was thinking of the 1st ed version.

In the modules Raistlin was always just 'Xth-level Human Magic-User,' and so were all the adversarial casters. In the Tales of the Lance boxed set which first distinguished the orders with some school restrictions, they all use the exact same xp and spell progression, which was almost exactly the same as the PHB progression.

[hogarth]

I think that's actually the 2nd ed version someone's backcomping into their 1e game, and I was thinking of the 1st ed version.

That's how the Knight of Solamnia worked in the 1E Dragonlance hardcover. I can't comment on the Wizard of High Sorcery, because screw those guys.

From Wikipedia's list of AD&D alternative classes:

"Dragonlance Adventures presented alternative classes for Knights of Solamnia (Knight of the Crown, Knight of the Sword and Knight of the Rose) and Wizards of High Sorcery, as well as the Tinker class, which is exclusive to Gnomes."

[angelfromanotherpin]

I guess there were many different iterations and I dropped out early. Again, in the modules the knights were always just 'Xth-level human fighter.'

[talozin]

My copy of the Dragonlance hardback is in the attic somewhere buried under a crapton of other stuff, so I can't easily get it out and check, but my recollection is that hogarth is correct about it being sort of a proto-PRC. The stuff at the link looks about right, down to the different colors having different rates of advancement.

This is as distinct from the old Dragonlance Saga adventures, which just used the standard 1E classes.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I like the basic idea of a PrC where White Robes and Red Robes and Black Robes get different bennies. I just wish it was written less shittily.

Having thought about this some more, the big problem is that the Robes really don't seem to be that distinct from each other in terms of abilities. Black Robes seem to be the only ones that do Necromancy, and that's about it. It's not enough.

I could see something which was based on philosophy. Like, the White Robes are about cooperation, the Black Robes are about competition, and the Red Robes are about self-reliance, and you set up bonuses that give them incentives to help/outdo/ignore people. That might have legs.

[Ice9]

The classic three to drop (for Focused Specialist, for instance) are Enchantment, Evocation, and Necromancy. Enchantment and Necromancy have some great spells, but nothing essential; you can get by without them. Evocation is totally skippable if you're playing with the Spell Compendium - Conjuration is better even at blasting.

For that matter, Wizard is strong enough that even losing Conjuration or Transmutation would still leave you with a fully contributing character. But the benefits for the PrC sound small enough that doing so would be a bad deal.

I could see something which was based on philosophy. Like, the White Robes are about cooperation, the Black Robes are about competition, and the Red Robes are about self-reliance, and you set up bonuses that give them incentives to help/outdo/ignore people. That might have legs.

I like that idea. Some possible abilities:

White: Circle Magic, Cooperative Crafting, easier spellbook sharing
Red: Artificer/Warlock crafting (skip required spells with UMD), can keep watch while resting for spells and disruptions don't add extra time, off-list picks (may be influenced by FF Red Mage. )
Black: Better counterspelling/dispelling, spell obfuscation (harder to identify/dispel), maybe some Spellthief stuff, or maybe SR penetration.

[Neurosis]

Alright, hosers, as usual I'm gonna try it myself.

Requirements

Alignment: Any evil (Black Robe), good (White Robe), or neutral (Red Robe)
Base Save Bonus: Will +4
Spellcasting:: Ability to prepare and cast 3rd-level arcane spells.
Skills: Spellcraft +8 ranks
Feats: Spell Focus (any), any two Item Creation or Metamagic feats.
Special: Test of High Sorcery: Failure means death. Even passing can leave you forever changed, and likely not for the better: wounded, or crippled, or something stranger (Raistlin). The threat of death does much to dissuade dabblers from attempting the test.

Each Test is unique, specially designed for the individual taking it. Each test should include at least three problems solved by the Wizard's knowledge of magic and its use. Characters must solve problems and defeat foes by casting every spell they know at least once. A character should be challenged in some way by a friend or ally. The test must also include a lethal danger of a Challenge Rating equal to the wizard's own level.

Those taking the test can bring their companions with them, but the challenges should be scaled upward to compensate for their presence. No one who comes along is guaranteed to return alive.

Class Skills
The Wizard of High Sorcery's class skills are: Concentration, Craft, Intimidate, Knowledge (all), Profession, and Spellcraft. Evil Wizards of High Sorcery also add Bluff and Move Silently to their class skills list. Good Wizards of High Sorcery add Sense Motive and Heal to their class skills list. Neutral Wizards of High Sorcery may add any one skill to their class skills list.

Hit Die: d4

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int Modifier

Level:	BAB:	Fort	Ref	Will	Special:	Spells per day:
1	+0	+0	+0	+2	Arcane focus, arcane research, item of power, moon magic,	+1 level of arcane spellcasting class
2	+1	+0	+0	+3	1st Order Secret	+1 level of arcane spellcasting class
3	+1	+1	+1	+3	Tower Resources I	+1 level of arcane spellcasting class
4	+2	+1	+1	+4	2nd Order Secret	+1 level of arcane spellcasting class
5	+2	+1	+1	+4	Tower Resources II	+1 level of arcane spellcasting class
6	+3	+2	+2	+5	3rd Order Secret	+1 level of arcane spellcasting class
7	+3	+2	+2	+5	Tower Resources III	+1 level of arcane spellcasting class
8	+4	+2	+2	+6	4th Order Secret	+1 level of arcane spellcasting class
9	+4	+3	+3	+6		+1 level of arcane spellcasting class
10	+5	+3	+3	+7	5th Order Secret	+1 level of arcane spellcasting class

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Good and Evil wizards of High Sorcery gain no proficiency with any weapons or armor. Neutral wizards of High Sorcery gain proficiency with any one martial weapon, with light and medium armor, and with all shields, but suffer a chance of arcane spell failure normally if they attempt to cast spells with material components while wearing armor.

Spells Per Day: When a new Wizard of High sorcery level is gained, the character gains new spellls per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he already belonged to.

Arcane Focus:
Upon passing the Test of High Sorcery, a non-specialist wizard must choose a school of magic to specialize in that matches his alignment and the color his newly awarded robes.

Good: Abjuration or Divination
Neutral: Transmutation or Illusion
Evil: Necromancy or Enchantment

As with any specialist wizard, the Wizard of High Sorcery must choose two prohibited schools (and cannot choose Divination) which traditionally come from the schools favored by the alignments within the order which are not his own. He can never again learn spells from the prohibited schools, though the prohibited spells he knew prior to becoming a Wizard of High Sorcery remain usable to him. He cannot choose a prohibited school that he already chose as a 1st level specialist.

A Wizard of High Sorcery who was already a specialist must change his specialized school to one favored by his Order (alignment) if it was not already one of those schools. He may not choose a new specialized school that was previously a prohibited school he chose at first level. This Wizard of High Sorcery is now a Focused Specialist. He receives a bonus to his caster level when casting spells of his specialized school equal to half of his Wizard of High Sorcery level, rounded down. However, he receives -1 to his caster level when casting all spells that are not of his chosen specialization.

And continuation:

Item of Power

Upon becoming a Wizard of High Sorcery, the character receives a special magic item. This magic item should be chosen by the DM based on the character's alignment and personality and the challenges of the character's Test. It should be useful, not all of its functions should be immediately revealed, not even with an identify spell (analyze dweomer would do it. The magic item's gp price can be anywhere between 20,000 and 200,000 gp. The item's Caster Level should be equal to at least 10 plus the character's hit dice upon attaining the Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class.

Moon Magic

Bla bla, wizard period. Same as in the original class. Or if you don't feeling like keeping track of whether Raistlin is being visited by Arcane Aunt Flo, seriously just ignore it.

Arcane Research

All Wizards of High Sorcery receive a competence bonus to Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft equal to half their class level, rounded down.

Tower Resources

As Spellpool, described on pp. 48-50 of Complete Arcane, except where exceptions have been noted. Spellpool is a big, complicated ability of the Mage of the Arcane Order PrC from CA that I didn't want to copy paste here. The way that Tower Resources is distinct that the Wizard of High Sorcery can only access spells from the pool that belong to the favored schools of their Order (White, Red, or Black). The Wizard of High Sorcery's (correctly color-coded) robes act as the "special focus" that allows them to access the Spellpool, which handily explains why they actually friggin' wear them.

Order Secrets: At 2nd level, and again at 4th level, 6th level, 8th level, and 10th level, a Wizard of High Sorcery learns one of the secrets of his Order described below.

SECRETS OF THE BLACK MAGES

"If I have to listen to one more of your word salads in the guise of a plan, I will kill myself so hard it will kill you instead."
- Black Mage, 8-Bit Theater

Magic of Betrayal: As a Free Action, a Black Robe can unleash a backlash of negative energy, dealing 3d6 douche damage to an ally within 30 feet: fueled by this betrayal, the Black Robe can spontaneously Empower or Extend any necromancy, enchantment or evocation spell she casts. Only one ally can be used in this way per day, the ally must actually consider themselves an ally of the Black Robe (it only works on allies, not "allies"), and must have a number of HD equal at least to the Black Robe's HD - 2. Black Robes will quickly find that abusing this Order Secret is a good way to lose allies quickly.

Magic of Darkness: At will, a Black Robe can imbue any damaging spell with negative energy. Half of the damage dealt by such a spell is negative energy damage, and is therefore not subject to being reduced by protection from energy or similar magic. The portion of damage from the spell that is negative energy heals undead creatures other than the Black Robe himself normally (although this healing is likely to be negated by the damage dealt).

Magic of Fear When a Black Robe wizard with this secret casts any necromancy spell, any enchantment spell which allows a save, or any spell that deals damage on a target, the wizard can immediately attempt to demoralize the spell's target by making an Intimidate check against the opponent's modified character level. The wizard receives a circumstance bonus on the Intimidate check equal to the level of the spell she cast.

Magic of Hunger: Each day, a Black Robe wizard can prepare one extra spell of any level she can cast at the cost of 1 point of Constitution damage per spell. This ability damage heals normally but cannot be magically restored. Only a Black Mage that already knows the Magic of Pain or the Magic of Betrayal Order Secret can learn this Order Secret.

Magic of Pain: Any creature that takes hit point damage from any of the Black Robe wizard's spells must make a successful Fortitude save (DC 10 + spell level + Constitution modifier) or become shaken for one round per spell level due to lingering pain. The Black Robe herself takes 2d6 vile damage when using Magic of Pain.

SECRETS OF THE RED MAGES

"Most plans are critically flawed by their own logic. A failure at any step will ruin everything after it. That's just basic cause and effect. It's easy for a good plan to fall apart. Therefore, a plan that has no attachment to logic can not be stopped."
- Red Mage, 8-Bit Theater

Some of these ability names are too long. Sorry not sorry. I love 8-Bit Theater and RM in particular with all my heart.

The primary goal for these was to be reasonably balanced (with things like Archmage and Mage of the Arcane order in the mix), with being funny a secondary goal. Except for "vindictive and filled with bad ideas": the priorities on that one were reversed, but I'm still not convinced it's unbalanced. Definitely bad for the social contract, though.

My Plans Are Always Practical--It's The Laws Of Physics That Get In The Way: Once per day for every two class levels in Wizard of High Sorcery that a Red Mage possesses, he can spontaneously Enlarge and Extend any Illusion or Transmutation spell he casts.

Use your weapons, they are designed to inflict damage!: Once per day for every class level in Wizard of High Sorcery that a Red Robe possesses, he can become more dangerous in melee/ranged combat as a free action. For one full round, the Red Mage receives a bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, and AC equal to his Wizard of High Sorcery class level.[/b]

I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore!: The base DC to for a caster level check to Dispel any Magic cast by a Red Mage that knows this secret is increased by 10.

In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed!
At will, a Red Mage can imbue any damaging spell with pure magic. Half of the damage dealt by such a spell is pure magic and is therefore not subject to being reduced by protection from energy or similar magic. It also looks way rad.

Vindictive and filled with bad ideas:
A number of times per day equal to his Wizard of High Sorcery class level, a Red Mage can reroll any roll that came up a natural 1. You must accept the result of the new roll, unless it is also a natural 1, in which case you can use another use of this ability if you have it.

Additionally, whenever a Red Mage would have to roll to "confirm a critical failure" of any kind for any reason, they can reroll indefinitely until the result is that there is no critical failure, only a regular failure. Finally, if the DM has custom "critical fumble tables", the player of the Red Mage may pee on them once per day.

Fruits of Genius (Evolution is My Bitch)
The Red Mage may look at the two prohibited schools on his character sheet and erase one of them. That school is no longer prohibited, and the Red Mage instantly learns one spell (of any level he can cast) belonging to the formerly prohibited school for each point of Intelligence Bonus that he has. Only a Wizard of High Sorcery of 8th level or higher can learn this secret.

SECRETS OF THE WHITE MAGES

"You are simply a horrible little monster and I pray for your quick and merciful death."
- White Mage, 8-Bit Theater

Magic of Defense
Once per day for every two class levels in Wizard of High Sorcery that a White Mage possesses, she can spontaneously Extend or Empower any Abjuration spell she casts. Additionally as long as Abjuration is her specialized school, she receives Spell Resistance equal to 8 + her Wizard of High Sorcery class level plus her Wisdom bonus.

Magic of Radiance
At will, a White Mage can imbue any damaging spell with radiant energy. Half of the damage dealt by such a spell is radiant energy, and is therefore not subject to being reduced by protection from energy or similar magic. The portion of damage from the spell that is radiant energy deals double damage to undead and to evil outsiders.

Ordinary Spells Crumble In My Presence
Whenever a White Mage casts dispel magic or greater dispel magic, they add a bonus to their caster level check equal to their Wizard of High Sorcery class level.

Infallible Concentration
Once per day for every two class levels of Wizard of High Sorcery that she possesses, a White Mage may 'Take 20' on a Concentration Check.

Arcane Healing
Only a White Mage that already knows the Magic of Radiance Order Secret can learn this Order Secret. A White Mage with this secret instantly adds arcane versions of the spells cure light wounds, cure moderate wounds, cure serious wounds and cure light wounds, mass to her spellbook as arcane spells. Whenever casting any Conjuration (Healing) spell, the White Mage adds a bonus to her caster level equal to half her Wizard of High Sorcery class level, rounded down.[/i]

There ya go. It works for me, but throw shade on it if and as you feel the need.

[Neurosis]

There, all done and I took an hour to fix most to all of the forummating mistakes that cropped up.

[Prak]

Ok, so my first thought on the class is that the Item of Power feature is, basically, pure, unleaded bullshit. I get what's going on there, but you're giving the most powerful characters in the game a free 20-2000K item. So I would either say that it is the Wizard's share of loot from the challenge which most parties will treat as an adventure anyway, or make the construction of an item of power a prereq for the class.

The next thought is that I would get rid of the robes altogether. They're dumb, both because they're 80s era lazy fantasy bullshit (that most fantasy writers don't really know the origin of), and because fucking color coded wizards who have to wear a fucking uniform. I'd replace them with pendants of the appropriate color which still act as a focus for Tower Magic so long as they're not hidden. Getting a player on board with having to wear a giant ruby or jet or pearl is way easier than "you have to wear your uniform."

Finally, Magic of Betrayal is very flavourful, but it's pretty much pure NPC territory. I'd replace it with something that doesn't encourage PKs and then put in a note about Secrets npc black mages might have.

[RelentlessImp]

The "Extend" half is all well and good, but name me five or even three transmutation spells that you even CAN Empower.

This is a holdover from 3.0 (which this book was written for) when the buff spells like Bull's Strength, Owl's Wisdom, et. al., all did 1d4+1 buff to the stats. Just a consequence of the change from 3.0 to 3.5.

[Neurosis]

The next thought is that I would get rid of the robes altogether. They're dumb, both because they're 80s era lazy fantasy bullshit (that most fantasy writers don't really know the origin of), and because fucking color coded wizards who have to wear a fucking uniform. I'd replace them with pendants of the appropriate color which still act as a focus for Tower Magic so long as they're not hidden. Getting a player on board with having to wear a giant ruby or jet or pearl is way easier than "you have to wear your uniform."

I have no problem with you (general you) doing that in your campaign, but in my campaign I'll be keeping the robes, because without them it wouldn't be as Dragonlancy. And like my dog who I love even though he eats our cat's shit whenever he can get away with it, I love Dragonlance even though it's full of dumb bullshit.

[Neurosis]

Finally, Magic of Betrayal is very flavourful, but it's pretty much pure NPC territory. I'd replace it with something that doesn't encourage PKs and then put in a note about Secrets npc black mages might have.

I feel like "I took away 3-18 of your hit points to make my spell better" is an Evil thing to do as well as a real dick move, but I don't think it's necessarily anywhere near "I WILL FUCKING KILL YOUR CHARACTER FOR THAT" territory.

No one I've gamed with would initiate PK over that. They'd get super pissed in character and roleplay and maybe shit would escalate, maybe it wouldn't, but they definitely wouldn't initiate PK over that alone. This could be a YMMV: we might run in different circles.

[Kaelik]

Finally, Magic of Betrayal is very flavourful, but it's pretty much pure NPC territory. I'd replace it with something that doesn't encourage PKs and then put in a note about Secrets npc black mages might have.

I feel like "I took away 3-18 of your hit points to make my spell better" is an Evil thing to do as well as a real dick move, but I don't think it's necessarily anywhere near "I WILL FUCKING KILL YOUR CHARACTER FOR THAT" territory.

No one I've gamed with would initiate PK over that. They'd get super pissed in character and roleplay and maybe shit would escalate, maybe it wouldn't, but they definitely wouldn't initiate PK over that alone. This could be a YMMV: we might run in different circles.

I've never met anyone ever who wouldn't kill the shit out of your character if your thing was permanently lowering max hit points of allies.

[Neurosis]

Permanently? Max hit points?

Sorry, that's not what I was going for. It's just 3d6 DAMAGE, it's just that it ignores all forms of DR, even DR/--.

I was going for a magic the gathering type "this loss of life is not damage" thing. It's sure as shit not permanent.

[Kaelik]

Permanently? Max hit points?

Sorry, that's not what I was going for. It's just 3d6 DAMAGE, it's just that it ignores all forms of DR, even DR/--.

I was going for a magic the gathering type "this loss of life is not damage" thing. It's sure as shit not permanent.

Loss of life in Magic that isn't damage is "permanent" but it doesn't matter because all the cards are temporary.

In D&D, you have hit points, and if you take damage, you can heal the damage in about a billion ways, but there is no magic way to heal loss of hit points that aren't damage. So you are permanently reducing hit points.

You can just call it untyped damage and be done, or you can give it a duration, or an expiry condition. But if you don't do those, then you are permanently reducing HP, and you shouldn't be surprised when the 1 HP Barbarian responds by murdering you and then retiring from adventuring.

[Neurosis]

How about the language "Dealing an ally within 30 feet 3d6 damage, which bypasses all forms of damage reduction." Would that work?