Dungeoncrawling as a Pro Sport

[Prak]

So, I've been looking into Xcrawl. The art is terrible, their weird "Earth, but we've always had elves and dwarves!" thing is... well, could probably be better if they were better writers. And I have no clue why they decided the North American Empire should be run by Immortal Ronald Reagan and have a hard on for Grecian gods.

And then there's mechanical stuff, like the shitty Athlete class, signature moves that are involve dicking around for two rounds and are highly likely to actually cost you fame because of that required dicking around.

But I do like the idea of a modern-esque PL D&D setting where dungeoncrawling is a pro sport. I just think it'd be way better to advance Greyhawk or whatever to psuedo-modern tech, then cram D&D magic into the modern world like Shaq trying to fuck a little person with no lube. It's not particularly difficult.

• A bard decides to start using Silent Image to make little tabletop visual components to his "No shit, there we were" stories. This proves popular enough for him to do it regularly and spread the idea to other bards.
• A bard works with the party wizard to create a magic item based on Arcane Eye that follows the party through a dungeon, recording them, and then can be docked in a magic item based on Minor Image to play the recording. Initially, the bard just holds onto his dock, and maybe trades Eyes with other bards, but eventually people start asking to buy docks, and it's dumb to say no to money. Bards focus on commentary and showmanship to differentiate themselves from just anyone with an Image Box.
• Some kingdoms put a bit of money in to the new trend to pay bards to do large image shows, maybe as part of a tourney, bringing in even more money. The more publicly minded kingdoms might reinvest this money into a Great Leap Forward sort of deal.
• Certain adventurers start to become celebrities, their crawls followed closely. Eventually some big bad decides they want some fame, so they build a big flashy dungeon specifically to play to an audience, and pulls some strings to get a well known party to take on his dungeon. Maybe the party fails, and the Big Bad raises them and sends them on their way with a "GG, guys!" The party mulls this over, and being for-profit adventurers anyway (as opposed to heroes), decide that, while weird as fuck, it's not really a problem. It is one of their "no shit, there we were" stories, though.
• Other parties seek out the purpose built crawl to try their luck against MC Glorymonger's Tomb of Horrors, which suits the Big Bad just fine, as his entire thing was wanting fame.

So basically that sets up the idea of dungeoncrawling as a spectator sport, and in-verse dungeon masters designing dungeons specifically for it, while also stimulating some modern-tech emulation.

I like the idea of signature moves, but the Xcrawl execution is terrible (outline a series of three actions taken over the same number of turns. If you complete the actions, gain fame. If you are prevented from completing them, lose fame). So any thoughts on how to make signature moves a thing in D&D?

[talozin]

So, I've been looking into Xcrawl. The art is terrible, their weird "Earth, but we've always had elves and dwarves!" thing is... well, could probably be better if they were better writers. And I have no clue why they decided the North American Empire should be run by Immortal Ronald Reagan and have a hard on for Grecian gods.

The authors may have been concerned that if they just did a generic modern or slightly futurist setting where dungeon crawling is an extreme sport, they would get their asses sued by Larry Niven for ripping off Dream Park. Which is actually a semi-legitimate concern.

But I do like the idea of a modern-esque PL D&D setting where dungeoncrawling is a pro sport. I just think it'd be way better to advance Greyhawk or whatever to psuedo-modern tech, then cram D&D magic into the modern world like Shaq trying to fuck a little person with no lube. It's not particularly difficult.

Since you don't have to worry about lawsuits, why not just make it fully modern and augmented-reality based a la the Niven books? You'd no longer have to worry about figuring out ways to sell the concept as realistically happening in a D&D world, which is always going to be a stretch. The campaign gets a second level of action beyond the dungeon crawling part; you could even run it under two systems at once, where you're playing a character who sometimes also plays a D&D character, and you just switch which sheet and system you're using depending on the phase of the game. The "real" level in a modern-esque game is pretty much just Shadowrun characters whose careers are as entertainers anyway. Then you can opt to either play the D&D universe tropes straight or exploit them for comic effect, and it works fine either way, even if you switch back and forth over the course of the campaign.

I like the idea of signature moves, but the Xcrawl execution is terrible (outline a series of three actions taken over the same number of turns. If you complete the actions, gain fame. If you are prevented from completing them, lose fame). So any thoughts on how to make signature moves a thing in D&D?

Signature moves in wrestling often aren't anything special or elaborate. The leg drop, flying elbow, and piledriver have all been used as signature moves by guys who were enormous stars. An elbow drop with a lot of added fucking around was the signature move of arguably the biggest wrestling star ever. So you don't need to make it super elaborate.

1) A signature move isn't necessarily unique, but it's more than just the basics. It should be something that not just anybody can do -- you need to have devoted some of your character-building choices to it.

2) It should probably not be just a basic action. Even if you for some godforsaken reason took Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, just hitting someone with a sword is kind of a fucked-up signature move.

3) You have to have some kind of buildup. A fight is not supposed to be just people trying their signature moves on one another every round until someone goes down and you get a fame bonus.

4) A properly executed signature move finishes off the person it's used on. Rather than modeling this by giving all sorts of weird requirements and bonuses to people who do signature moves, you should just assume that if it doesn't finish off the target, it was (for some reason) not properly executed. The bad guy interrupted your Sharpshooter or Figure Four Leg Lock before you could lock it in, so the battle continues and you can try again later in the fight once you've done your buildup again.

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

Prak - which version of X-crawl? The old D20 one or the new Pathfinder version?

I have both, but honestly, haven't read the pathfinder version, I'd like to think they cleaned up the Signature moves. The thing about them is that they give the PC permanent fame points, (or at least they used to) which gives them a not inconsiderable amount of money over time.

Having played in a few X-crawl games, we used Signature moves all the time and had a blast with them. They weren't always successful, but generally people chose one that they would succeed at relatively well. They are cheesy TV gimmick and not numerically optimal.

[hyzmarca]

It depends on how dark you want to go? Are we talking about a fun and harmless game, or are we talking about a brutal bloodsport in which professional gladators cut down hoards of disposable demihuman slaves in every game?

[Prak]

I'm still looking through the books, but the review I read was for the original. Signature Moves definitely had a big benefit, but it's a hard benefit to get in practice, it sounds like.

For those who haven't read it-
Spend 1000xp (fluffed as going out and training to perfect your signature move) and choose a round wasting Call (something you spend a round doing to alert the audience you're about to do your move- theatrically holding your hand up to your ear, pointing to the cheap seats as you heft your greatclub, etc), then two different actions over two rounds which will receive a +2 to their relevant number (attack/skill roll, spell DC, etc). If you pull off your Call, and then both of your next two actions, you get 1 fame, or 3 if your siggy takes out an opponent. But all three rounds must be successful.

So, you might have the siggy "Big Hitter" where you 1- Point to the cheap seats, as if to say "I'm gonna smack you so hard that your head lands in someone's popcorn, fucker;" 2- move; and 3- Hit someone with your greatclub. If you're not interrupted during your call, your move, and your target is still standing by the time it comes back around to your third round, and you don't miss, you get 1 fame. If someone shanks the orc who you're about to smack and drops it before you get your third action in, your siggy fails, and you wasted two rounds.

You can perform your siggy at any time during a crawl, but you only get the fame the first time. It's not explicitly stated if a failed siggy prevents you from getting fame from a later successful siggy. There's a clear incentive to make your First Action an attack, and your Second Action a skill check, so that if combat ends before you get to round three of your siggy, you can still finish it out. I suppose there's nothing actually preventing you from making your Second Action "Perform (teabag corpse)." Well, mechanically. In world, that would risk a DQ.

Looks like Pathfinder's Maximum XCrawl did actually clean up Siggys by making it a couple feats- Signature Spell and Signature Strike. Both require spending your move action to Grandstand against the Crowd DC, then casting a spell or making an attack specified when you take the feat which gets a +1 Confidence bonus to DC/Atk. If it succeeds, you get 1 temp fame, and if you take the target out you gain a mojo point.

Definitely cleaner, but I think it loses something in the striping down. I would want to make Signature Moves into more of a "Build a Feat. You get 1, no you can't take another Signature." Which of course requires a system by which people can put together a series of conditions/performances and bonuses into something worth a feat slot, but I think it could work

I see a Pro Dungeoncrawling setting as more incredibly black comedy. Pro gladiators cut down hordes of disposable monsters and minions, but there's seriously Crawl Insurance and the like. Kobolds and goblins generally can't afford it, but that just means that you get set ups where the mooks run off saying "fuck this!" and were only intended as a speed bump, or In-verse MCs use shock collars and shit to force mooks to fight to the death. I think I'd want res magic to be cheaper so that it is more black comedy, with npcs like That One Kobold We Kill Every Dungeon or whatever.

[maglag]

Thing is, spending a round just making a call means the opposition gets a round to nuke you in the face really hard.

I would add some extra rule that if you're attacked while doing the call, you either get extra defenses and/or your signature bonus increases when you actually start the smackdown.

Cheaper ressurection could be a local investment. The dungeons would be equipped with local ressurection system. It only works on people who die inside the dungeon, and it's quite expensive to set up the first time, but pays itself pretty fast when you're running deadly crawls every weekend/night.

[Mask_De_H]

Again, the thing is, in wrestling a signature move doesn't always have a tell. Finishers might, but what they put as the Call is a taunt and can be done whenever without taking up multiple seconds. So you'd have The Rock's People's Elbow (which is what they seem to be trying to emulate), but you also have his spit punches (where the call is during the move) and the ready stance he goes into before the Rock Bottom or a Spinebuster or his floaty DDT (which is a move-agnostic Call).

So you would want a Finishing Move that has extra theatrics and you use to end somebody as well as a Call/Appeal which would give you a bonus if you succeed at popping the crowd.

[Prak]

Well, XCrawl has a Grandstanding thing, which I think is a perform type, which would handle the "Pop the crowd" stuff. I'm not opposed to finishers/siggies having a time consuming call, I think that's pretty evocative, I just think the way siggies were executed in the original XCrawl was just too fallible. I think the inspiration from pro wrestling might actually have been part of the issue, as pro wrestling is (generally) (supposed to be) one on one, so you don't have to worry about a team mate finishing your opponent while you're dicking around on the ropes.

That said, a gentlemen's agreement to not fuck with each others' siggies by popping the orc you're targeting with your Stink Eye call or whatever would work just fine. And when you have characters motivated to "accidentally" sabotage their teammate's siggy because "Oh, crap, any more fame and he'll get the Wheaties deal!" ... I'm sort of ok with that kind of story being enabled?

But I do think three rounds is too much dicking around. I could see it as a two round action, Round One is the Call, where you indicate to the crowd you're about to use your siggy/finisher, and it's a full round action, but one you can move X amount during. Then Round Two is a full round thing that's your actual siggy/finisher that you've built. One of the reasons I wanted to ask the Den about this stuff is because I never watched much pro wrestling, so I'm not really fluent in Signature Move/Finisher territory.

[hyzmarca]

Well, XCrawl has a Grandstanding thing, which I think is a perform type, which would handle the "Pop the crowd" stuff. I'm not opposed to finishers/siggies having a time consuming call, I think that's pretty evocative, I just think the way siggies were executed in the original XCrawl was just too fallible. I think the inspiration from pro wrestling might actually have been part of the issue, as pro wrestling is (generally) (supposed to be) one on one, so you don't have to worry about a team mate finishing your opponent while you're dicking around on the ropes.

That said, a gentlemen's agreement to not fuck with each others' siggies by popping the orc you're targeting with your Stink Eye call or whatever would work just fine. And when you have characters motivated to "accidentally" sabotage their teammate's siggy because "Oh, crap, any more fame and he'll get the Wheaties deal!" ... I'm sort of ok with that kind of story being enabled?

But I do think three rounds is too much dicking around. I could see it as a two round action, Round One is the Call, where you indicate to the crowd you're about to use your siggy/finisher, and it's a full round action, but one you can move X amount during. Then Round Two is a full round thing that's your actual siggy/finisher that you've built. One of the reasons I wanted to ask the Den about this stuff is because I never watched much pro wrestling, so I'm not really fluent in Signature Move/Finisher territory.

Generally, the finisher comes when the opponent is incapacitated. You don't just signal to the crowd and do it, that's a fast way to get hit by a steel chair. No, you beat the shit out of the other guy, knock him down hard, and then you signal to the crowd while he's on the mat writhing in pain or just flat out of it. He might be trying to slowly get up, too. But either way, he's not going to interrupt your grandstanding.

So to do finishers properly, you want them to be actual finishers. They're coup-de-grace attacks, mostly. The other guy is already down, the finisher puts them out.

There is an exception for submission holds, in which case you can easily go from nearly full health to horrific agony right quick, and the struggle is to actually but it on. But even that usually requires beating the other guy down until he's too disoriented to resist.

Really, the best way to handle signatures would be as attacks of opportunity against enemies who are suffering an appropriate negative status. Thus, you'd have to set it up by inflicting the negative status, but your teammates can help you by inflicting the negative status themselves.

[Neurosis]

Hey so I read the title of this thread and I was like "whoa!"

The company I own actually publishes an RPG I wrote that is essentially about dungeoncrawling as a pro-sport (and, it goes without saying, a bloodsport). It's much, much, much darker than XCrawl, and probably a lot weirder, too.

My game's a Copper Best Seller on DriveThruRPG...which is really emphatically not very impressive, except in the context of all the games selling on DriveThru that have somehow not reached that sad, sad milestone. It is or will be in distribution through a mid-tier distributor soon, so it'll be available at a smattering of lucky FLGS throughout the country. And we Kickstarted the first two supplements for it last year.

If anyone's at all interested, PM me and I'll drop you a link. (I try to keep my "industry identity" separate from anything I might post on the Den so I can shit-post and blow off steam here with impunity, although historically I've done a pretty half-assed job.)