WiP: DisgaeaGame Revised (still 3.X)

[Koumei]

Yeah, a normal SGT wouldn't work, though arguably it'd be fine to SGT various chunks of those. So a Warrior With Advanced Race could look at a 5th level battle stage and go:

Okay, can't one-shot a Troll or hit it from a crazy range. Deals a bunch of damage to it then gets caught in melee - probable loss without some tactics or a racial Mind-Affecting or Anchoring power. Against a pair of ogres? At 29 HP each compared to his ~17 damage for a 1d6/level, he probably can't one-shot either of them (unless he has special Axe powers which are great for single-target damage), but he can probably 2-shot them with AoEs and thus it's altogether possible he'll beat them both in two rounds but take "a chunk of damage" in the meantime. Probable victory with attrition, or if he decides to save on ability usage it's a slug-fest that could go either way (and could draw other enemies into combat range if it goes too long). Against the Orc Warriors, he can probably kill one at a time without using abilities (or 2-3 at a time using abilities at that level but that's a waste), and isn't likely to take damage himself.

So overall it looks like 2 probable losses (both Troll encounters), 1 certain victory (the orcs), 1 probable victory (2 ogres at once) and 1 either-way (the other two ogres when he's already used a bunch of powers and taken damage). Assume though that being a Vampire gives him some great vampiric healing and mesmerism, and things are looking more in his favour. Likewise "I'm an Empusa, I can charm one of these things" and so on.

---

But setting out number ranges by level seems a pretty good idea too.

So yeah, at level ten we're looking at AC 22-30 for most and 26-34 for super defensive. So if you're a Blue Mage, you probably have a Dex of 19 (including +4 from an item and +1 Inherent) and you are flat-out expected to wear Magic Pants and a Deflecting Ring at the minimum (to bring you to AC 10 + 4 + 4 + 3 for 21), but you're preferably an Alraune or something, gaining a gradually scaling Natural Armour Bonus due to having bark for skin, so it might get up to 25-ish. And if you're a Gargoyle Heavy Knight, you're wearing Full Plate +4 for +12 and you're carry a Heavy Shield +4 for +6 and you have +1 Natural just for existing and you walk out the door with 29 before you even put your Amulet of Natural Armour on (which brings you to 33 and you're golden.)

Level 1: a pair of animated garden gnomes attack at +1 each, and a pair of dire rats attack at +4 each. Or a single small fire elemental gets +3 (or automatic if you hit it with the wrong type of attack), or a medium viper attacks at +4 or a lemure gets a pair of attacks at +2 each. So basically a bodyguard type wants 17-22 for AC (which is like "I have Full Plate"), and everyone else should have around 11-16 (so "I have +1 Dex" to "I have +2 Dex and a Chain Shirt").

Level 3: a pair of the above vipers could attack at +4 each. A Hell Hound attacks at +5, an Imp attacks at +8, and the real boss fight is allegedly a CR 3 dragon, a blue wyrmling, who will be Dazzle from the Draconomicon: he charges at +10 or makes a melee flurry of 1*+8 and 2*+3. So... weirdly this looks a lot like the numbers you get at level 5. But maybe a bit lower for the floor of your AC.

At level five a single Manticore is serious business and it Claws you with +10 or shoots you with +8 (and the shooting is the scary bit), meanwhile a Troll only has +9 to hit you when it isn't charging (although any time you make it charge, you're safe from a big old rend) so your AC shouldn't even be at 30 even for a knight. Ankhegs and Assassin Vines are both at +7, whereas fighting groups of level 3 Minions (with 2 being a "CR 3" ala the Tome NPC Classes, so 4 of them being a standard level 5 challenge), they're looking at around +5 to hit. Overall that means the highest AC for non-superdefenders should be 25 as a serious upper limit. It also means the floor should be around 15 for people who don't mind being threatened by minions and "more than 20" for defensive types.

So at level 5 your Gargoyle Knight made sure to prioritise magic armour and shields and THEN a weapon and doesn't have an amulet yet, and has Armour +10 Shield +4 Natural +1 for 25 total. Even with an Amulet or a Ring, that's still just 28, which is okay. The Mage on the other hand has 14 Dex without any items so runs in at 12, and is then told "No you idiot, your second magic item (after casting-stat-booster) will be something defensive". So probably has both the dex booster AND the magic pants, for all of 15, 17 if there's also a ring.

Let's look at level 15 for what kind of numbers they need. Purple Worms and Cloud Giants attack in groups but are still legit threats if they can reach you (ie if the fight happens in a cavern). The giants attack at +22 and the worms at +25, Charnel Hounds (pairs) are only +17 and the Boneyard (solo) is +16, and Deathshriekers (boss) automatically hit you with Touch Attacks. A Hullathoin (boss) is +17 and +14 (and also creates Swarms that auto-hit), and Skybleeders (fought in packs) are +15 and +10.

There's a BIG difference between Monster Manual I and "other" there. Overall we're looking at an AC range of 25-35 for most characters, with "I have the AC" characters rocking a 31-40 (and being actually immune to the standard attacks of many foes). Does this seem easy to manage? Well your Mage now has a Dex of 24 (+5 inherent, +5 item), +5 Magic Pants, and a +3 Ring, so that's 25 before taking into consideration a potential amulet or racial stuff, which still won't push them up to 35. Meanwhile a Gargoyle Knight has Armour +13 Shield +7 Natural +6 Deflection +3 (39) and parries attacks with his cock.

At level 20, a Hound Archon Hero (found in four-packs) attacks at +25/+20/+15/+10 and has a secondary +17. Except he can cast Bull's Strength and Divine Favour and add something like +5 to attack rolls. Cornugons are also four at a time, and attack at +25/+20/+15 with a pair of secondary +22 attacks. A tag-team of Mariliths are crazy with each making 5*+25 and 1*+25/+20/+15/+10 and also a +22 (which can trigger a deadly grapple). A pair of Ice Giant Jarls puts you up against two sets of +30/+25/+20/+15 (before they Smite for +4 to attack or cast Bull's Strength for +2 to hit) or they can throw rocks for +18. Now on its own a Nightwalker makes two attacks at +24, and apparently an Old Red Dragon is fine. So Draconomicon gives us Sventsorggviresh, who charges for +38 or attacks once at +36 and then twice at +32 and then three times at +31.

So you need a minimum of 30 just so not all of these give you an auto-hit, with most people topping out at around 40 or so. A Knight, though? They straight-up need an AC of 40-45. A Gargoyle Knight picked up the 12 Dex his Magic Full Plate allows, so has 10 +1 Dex +15 Armour +9 Shield +5 Deflection +6 Natural for 46 as the best they actually can get. That puts them out of the reach of Cornugons who don't charge and HAHs that don't cast spells first, and that's assuming it all works out well for them, so that's fine. A Mage could have a 22 Dex if you include a booster item, so +7 for Magic Pants and +5 for a Ring and you have 28. This means they need to either get their +5 Inherent or get a Dodge Bonus or have a spell that gives a Shield Bonus or wear an Amulet. But it's possible.

As for Attack bonuses...

Level 1: everything has 14-16 for the AC, so if attacking isn't your forte, it could seriously be +0 and that's all right. But if it's more than +6, that's weird. Protip: it isn't, most non-fighter types have +2(ish). Now fighter types want +3 minimum, +10 maximum, and they won't reach that maximum because they're like +2 Strength/Dex and +1 BAB and maybe they pick up a sneaky +1 on the side. But level 1 is dumb anyway.

Level 3: the AC range tends to be around 16, except of course the Imp which has AC 20. So non-fighters need +1 or more, and shouldn't have more than +7, and what they'll normally have is +5 ish. Fighter types need to be walking in at +5 minimum with +15 being too much, and what they'll actually have is +7 ish.

At level five, the Warriors have AC of 15-18 based on gear, the Ankheg is 18, Manticore 17 (and probably flying), Troll 16 and Ass Vine 17. With just about all of them looking at "automatic hit" if you go for Touch Attacks. So Fighting Men need an Attack Bonus of +6 (minimum), but shouldn't be more than +14, and they're basically in that window by existing: +5 BAB, +3 Ability Score, +2 Magic Weapon = +10, and they even hit the Ankheg on an 8.

If they make Touch Attacks, they should have a much smaller number, and they will (because they have a smaller BAB and are probably using a secondary ability score for attack rolls and aren't adding magic weapon bonuses, so it's like +5 Touch and they still hit on a 4+).

Then at level ten, Owlbear Skeletons are AC 13 (automatic hit for basically everyone), Minotaurs are 14, Gargoyles are 16 and Efreeti are 18. This is if anything lower than the level five numbers, but if we look at [Evil] Outsiders of that level, they're all in the 20-25 range. So you want a fighter type to not auto-hit those ones, but still reliably hit. So like +15 as the floor and +20 (could take zero to smack a Bebilith) as the ceiling. And BAB +10 with a +4 Enhancement Bonus to the weapon and a +6 Ability Bonus (15, +2 from levelling, +2 Innate, +4 item) straight-up hits the ceiling. That might be a problem, best-tackled by not just flat-out giving everyone the Innate Bonus or making it come online later. Or we can just let them hit and assume there will be a certain amount of Power Attack for reducing accuracy?

Roguelikes (the character archetype, not the game genre) shouldn't hit quite as often, and they won't: at just +7 BAB they're 3 points lower. Also they're more likely to be facing Range Increment Penalties.

Bad Touch People will have even lower, but they don't care because touch attacks.

At level fifteen you have AC 19 on Purple Worms, AC 25 on Cloud Giants, AC 22 on Skybleeders (almost certainly at a rage, with concealment) and AC 30 on Boneyards. But Fiends are looking at 27-35 at that point. So a Fighting Man shouldn't have a bonus of 30 or more, but similarly should have a minimum of +20. BAB +15, Ability +9, Enhancement +5 is +29, which is the ceiling, but see above about not including the Inherent or letting them PA like mad.

Scouts are -4 on BAB and again are more likely to be looking at Ranged Penalties. And people still don't care about RTA users because Ranged Touch Attacks.

At level 20, the Mariliths and Jarls have AC 29, those dogs have AC 30, the Nightwalker has 32, the Cornugons are 35 and Svent has 33. So if your bonus is more than +27 that might be a problem (except you can PA away I suppose), and it's also a problem if it's under +9. More realistically you want it in the 14-22 range. So a warrior has +20 just for existing, +8 from the boosted Strength, +7 for a magic weapon, so +35 and the bonus actually equals the highest AC there. This means even the fourth attack maybe hits or they can go happy with power attack. And putting it in that context makes it sound okay.

But a Scout has BAB +15 and +7 Dex and +7 magic weapon so is at +29 but probably less damage (also, range increment penalties). It'd be a problem if combat was all about people lining up and making basic attacks at regular AC and everything and that determined the winner. But that stopped happening a while ago.

So far, just looking at AC and attack bonus ranges, and just for those three levels, it's looking do-able. Obviously the game shits itself more and more the higher in level you go, but if I just picked a few really choice encounters and things that will be *the* level 20 benchmark and create the rest to adhere to that, then it doesn't have to be a void of completely random numbers.

Have I made any terrible decisions so far?

[Koumei]

Looking at damage the monsters throw out...

Generally you don't want PCs to go from full to zero in the space of a couple of turns - even if enemies catch them off guard and also win Initiative, they should still be able to do something after (even if that thing is "back off and heal and then fight on the defensive for a bit").

At level 1 the garden gnomes deal fuck all (1d3-1), the snake does so much more on 1d4-1 (and Poison), and the lemure and dire rats crank it up to 1d4. The Fire Elemental doubles up to 1d4 and 1d4 fire (and potential ongoing damage). Now, your minions will still probably die in 1-2 hits. Meanwhile, with x4 at first level, a Mage has like 12 HP (ie the 3rd Elemental slam is a KO but a pair of rats need to do 5-6 bites between them) and a Knight has 32 (seven fiery slams if there are no crits or ignitions).

At level 3 the snake is the same but there are two of them but you still don't care. The Imp does 1d4, which is nothing. The Hell Hound deals 1d8+1 and 1d6 Fire, so ~9. Or it breathes on you for 7 Fire if you have DR but not Fire Resistance (or if it can get a couple of people at once). And Dazzle either zaps you for 9, or charges for ~4, or makes a full attack for around 9 (unlikely to hit with all). So damage is still pretty small here. The Mage has 18 HP now and can now be barely 2-shotted by the harder hitters. The Knight has around 48 so it takes around 5-6 hits, that's fine.

Level 5: an Ass Vine whips you for 1d6+7 and then squeezes your head for another 1d6+7. Now that's not 2d6+14 because of the whole "needs to then grapple you" bit and of course DR counts against each set there. But that's a potential ~21 which is kind of nuts given you could fight two at once. Ankhegs meanwhile spit 4d4 ~10 on the party, Or they just bite one person for 14 damage and a couple of acid. If the Troll boss has to charge you, which is what you want, it's like 9 damage. On the other hand, if it corners you, it's piledriving you onto a landmine (~9 and ~10 and ~6 and ~16, so 41 if you have no DR). But we kind of understand that closet trolls do that. As for the Manticore? If it's charging you, it hits for around ten. If you start in its reach, it can hit twice for 10 and once for around 6 (so 26 before subtracting for accuracy). If it shoots you in the face, then unless you have DR you need it to start missing or you take 39 damage and regret all your life choices.

So you can't have under 20 HP at this point, and even that means a lot of things are dangerous. Tanky guys need 50 or so, just to survive a single super-barrage and keep going, but have no business wandering around with 100. A Mage with a Con of +1 therefore has 8*3=24 and scrapes in at a pretty dangerous area. A Knight has Con +3 (assuming an item) and runs about with 8*9=72, which is basically as high as I'd want it to get. Obviously your minions are going to just get outright misted, and honestly, you probably WANT to sacrifice them for this.

At level ten, the Minotaur starts with a charge for 4d6+6 (~20) which isn't nothing, and after that you're still looking at two attacks that deal 3d6+6 (~17, with a x3 crit, but only one attack is likely to hit) and another for 1d8+2 (~6). Even assuming skeletons hit, that's only two attacks of 1d6+5 and one for 1d8+2 (so ~8, 9 and 6). The Gargoyle makes four attacks in a Full Attack, but all at a low attack bonus so of the 2x1d4+2 and 2x1d6+1 you probably are looking at one hit for ~4. Now the Efreet makes two attacks, and probably does hit with both, which are ~14 damage each. Of course it can also just fire three rays and blast you for 12d6 Fire (~42). So a character shouldn't die from taking 40 damage over the first two rounds and should be rocking a bunch of elemental resistances (with each point of Fire Resist counting triple against that Scorching Ray). On the other hand, a Minion totally should, and most characters shouldn't be standing there and sucking up full damage from a Minotaur or Efreeti for four or more rounds without dropping.

So I'd say somewhere in the 40-100 range is reasonable for most characters (although that lower end will really want Elemental Resistances, Spell Resistance, Concealment or whatever to prevent Scorching Death). Which is 4-10 per level - this means a Mage is expected to have a Con Booster and at this point that's a fair expectation. And Mages tend to have a relevant Energy Resistance, which is a plus if it matches. And a Knight could go "I HAVE HUGE GUTS!" 60 base + 40 Con = 100 (or 78 + 52 = 130 if the x4 at first level seems good, and that does seem good in this case).

Level 15: the worm does 21 damage from the bite, but then it swallows you and deals 29 per round, so you basically have a bunch of rounds to escape/be cut loose before you just die. Or it stings you for 13 and potentially poisons you, which makes you more likely to get swallowed. The giant can whack you once for 32, or if in close quarters it can do that three times, so potentially 96. If it has to just chuck a rock at you, that's 21 which isn't bad. So if your career involves getting into close combat with cloud giants you want North of 200 HP, and if you hide behind other people and shoot things, you should probably only have ~100, if that. So a mage has a Con Booster for 18 total there and has 108 and you know what? That's close enough. The Knight has around 20 Con and so has 198. So maybe the base number needs adjusting from 6 to 7 or 8, or maybe they can have a "I HAVE HIT POINTS" Evilty.

Level 20: the dog has 4 attacks at ~16 and one for ~6, but can add +6 damage from spells and can smite. But it's not very impressive individually - keep in mind there are four, so it could theoretically be 280 - but that's not too likely (there will be some misses) and is scattered amongst the party. Cornugons hit harder, with 3*22 and 14 and 12. 62 * 4 of them is 248 but see above. Also they have spells that deal damage but it isn't a lot of damage. Each Marilith has 4 attacks of ~16 damage and 5 of ~11 and also the tail slap of 18 (which can very well result in a grapple of 27 and potential KO). So that's one Marilith potentially doing 164 (well potentially doing more if it crits and rolls above average, but you know what I mean). So a pair are 328 damage. But your DR will be subtracted multiple times, you will want to make them move so they get only one attack each, and so on. The Nightwalker has 2*23 but you're more worried about the other things it can deal. Still, 46 damage is more than you expect to suffer from the Cornugon's Lightning Bolt. Jarl axes will do 28.5 plus 3.5 cold (four attacks), but can get +3 damage from a spell, +8 damage from a smite, and +7 sneak attack damage. So if they charge a prepared foe with no prep-time it's 32 damage before you subtract two types of resistance. If they corner you it's up to 128 before bonuses - if you're flanked you can make that 156 each. And the dragon does 109 but you subtract DR six times. Or breathes on the entire party for 88 Fire.

Which means nobody can have under 100 because the breath weapon is meant to just soften you up, not fucking kill you, and most other things can do damage in that region over a round. On the other hand, if they have 300 they can just about take a round of damage from any of the above encounters, which is a bit out there for a mage or scout. What does the game say they have? Well a Mage is at 20 Con (items) so has 161 HP without an Inherent Bonus, and a Scout has 144 before Wishes. That's basically acceptable though more wouldn't hurt. Now a Knight or similar needs to actually be able to eat up a full routine from a pair of Mariliths. He obviously has DR, but even so, we're looking at 276 from the Con 22 and the base class HP. See above for potentially adjusting the number or giving them an Evilty for HP. Or just let DR handle a lot of it - many of these are "heaps of hits for smaller chunks" and not "I hit you once for $TEXAS".

Save DCs for various levels of fuckery monsters use (even though I mostly chose big damage brutes because Disgaea)

At level 1 you have Burn, Disease and Poison at DC 11. So even a +0 isn't terrible, but a +10 would be kind of dumb. Also, people don't get +10 at level 1, they have +0 to +4.

At level 3 your average Save DC is 13-14. So you really should have a positive bonus but it isn't hopeless if you don't for your bad saves (most characters will have +1 or 2). Good saves shouldn't be +12 or more, and they won't, they'll be +5 or 6.

Level 5: the Ankheg breathes on you at DC 14 and that's it for the ones I chose. A lot of things in this level range have a Save DC of 13-16, so while you can probably manage with +0 on your poor saves you really want them to be +2 or 3, and you want your good saves to be maybe as high as +10 but probably a bit less. What does it actually look like for you? +1 or 2 for your poor saves and +5 or 6 for your good ones.

At level ten, the Genie has a bunch of things with Save DCs in the 14-18 range. So players should be looking at the +5 to +14 range. Given a poor save is +3 before taking ability scores and the +4 from an item into account, meeting the minimum is basically "Mandatory Item". A good save on the other hand starts at +7 and the mandatory item brings it to +11, with ability scores potentially pushing it off the RNG but unlikely (about the only case being Ref Saves for Archers and Scouts and shit - Wisdom and Constitution are unlikely to be primary ability scores for anyone).

At Level 15 the worm can poison you at DC 25. On the other hand a Hullathoin has a few effects at DC 18 and 19 (and 19 for the Swarms). The Boneyard has DC 22. So you're looking at 18-25 just from the things I could be fucked looking at. So if you have less than +5 you're basically automatically fucked sometimes, and if you have more than +20 you're just about turning it into a joke. Your average character has +5 for bad saves and +9 for good saves just from level progression. Chuck +5 from the item everyone has and you're now at +10/+14, and then ability scores will modify that a bit more.

At level 20, the lamest save DC is 18 (Hound Archon Aura, weaker Nightwalker SLAs) and the biggest is 27 (Marilith Constriction and Cornugon Stun), note that these are Save-or-Die effects. Or 30 for the Dragon's breath. So your worst save should be +10 or so (up to around +15 or a bit more), and good saves should very well start at +15 and I don't care if they go to +40 and negate all of the above when that save is targeted. Your bad saves look like +6 from level and +7 from an item and +0 from neglected ability scores so +13, but if you load ALL ability scores up alongside saves, then you could actually have +17 for your lowest save. That's a bit weird but it won't break the game. Your good saves are +12 for existing, +7 for an item, then maybe +5 from an ability score, so +19-24. Works for me.

Save Bonuses for monsters...

Level 1: objects are +0 +2 -5 (but Mindless Objects), Elementals are +0 +4 +0 (but with a pile of Immunities), Lemures have +3 +3 +3 but are Mindless and have Resistances and Immunities, and rats are +3 +5 +3 while vipers are +3 +6 +1. So overall a Save DC should absolutely be 12 at the minimum, and that's probably the actual number it will be.

Level 3: the dragon has +6 +7 +5 (and is immune to lightning), the snakes still have +3 +6 +1, the imp has +3 +6 +4 and has a resistance and an immunity, and the Hell Hound has an immunity and +5 +5 +4. So if your Save DC is 20 that's kind of unfair but doesn't break the game. If your Save DC is less than 14 you will have trouble but the game still isn't broken. At this level, sadly, you're barely keeping up - by taking an item that Enhances either your Save DC or your Casting stat (which started at 15), you just managed to hit 14.

At level 5, Ass Vines are +7 +1 +2 while Ankhegs are +6 +3 +2. Trolls are +11 +4 +3. The Manticore is +9 +7 +3. You're looking at having a Save DC of 16, which means they are very likely to fail at their weak saves and anywhere between "very likely" and "almost certain" to pass their good saves. That's all right.

The Minotaur is +6 +5 +5. The skeletons are +1 +3 +4 and basically never need to make Fort or Will Saves. The Gargoyles have +5 +6 +4. The Efreeti has +9 +10 +9. So if your Save DC is around 20, the Efreeti is still making it around half the time but it's not a gimme, and the others are basically fucked. If it's as low as 15, you're giving everyone else good odds and the Efreeti usually passes. If it's up to 25 then you've just about pushed the Minotaur off the RNG and that's not what I want.

What does D&D normally say your Save DC is at this point? 15 based on hit dice and then +5 from your Ability Score boosted by levels and an item. Well fancy that.

Level 15: the Worm gets +17 +8 +4, note the huge difference there. The Cloud Giant has +16 +6 +10. I think the moral of the story here is that you can't go around with a DC of 35+, but it should be 25 or so. So 10 + 7 (levels) + 6 (good stat boosted and increased) is only 23 - at this point you need to either chuck in an Evilty of "Dhurr, now you get a bonus to Save DCs" or have an item do that with the scaling bonus (it's now 28), or bring in the Inherent Bonus (DC 25 on the dot).

Level 20: Dogs have +18 +11 +13, Cornugons have +16 +16 +15, Mariliths have +19 +14 +14, Jarls have +25 +13 +13. A Nightwalker has +11 +11 +19 and is Undead, and the Dragon is +23 +16 +21. Note that there are loads of resistances and immunities on this bunch. So if your Save DC is in the region of 30, that's pretty much ideal. 37 or more is not really okay, and DC 20 isn't going to work. It's base 20 for existing and then you're adding 8 from a boosted ability score. If you have an item to boost your save DCs, it's now 35 which is pushing close to the upper limit.

[Username17]

Since there are three different saves, it's OK for characters to be nearly or actually off the RNG in one of them. If Galaxy Mages or Saints are outright immune to mind control and Ruby Knights and Berserkers are immune to poison, that's OK because only minions are going to get to high level without the ability to choose to attack different saves.

-Username17

[Koumei]

That's fair enough. So, I went through to get a bunch of ballparks for levels 1, 3, 5, 10, 15 and 20 and because I'm lazy I'm basically extrapolating the rest between those values. Which shows when it gets weird in places as some times values basically stagnate or spike (there are some levels where enemy attack bonuses stay the time for a few levels then jump 5 points, or where enemy AC goes down, but whatever).

The exception is damage, because I know that inflates. So I'm spending a bit of time looking over minions and "you fight this in a pair" and "proper enemy" for the levels and getting a basic idea. Levels 1-2 are anomalies where usually they have a bit more HP and you kind of expect people to deal "Longsword with a Strength Bonus" and not "Burning Hands 1d6". After that, d6/level works up to around 10, before HP values balloon. So I looked at 11 and 12 so far, and will keep going through and looking at the average ranges such that "I can 1-2 shot minions easily, but can't 1-shot (and probably need to spend a few rounds to solo/need to dogpile with the whole party) real enemies" stays correct. Edit: okay, after ten, you get a blip of 3 dice, then it carries on at +2d6 per level for a bit until after 21d6 I decide piles of dice are annoying so I put in "In a round you need to do about this much". And I don't care if that's by having an attack that rolls heaps of dice (I hope not) or by having an attack that specifically deals "one hundred points of damage", or by assuming two of your three attacks will hit on average, for around fifty each.

But so far we have:

Lvl	Attack Bonus (low and high)	Damage	Normal AC	Tanky AC	Saves	HP	Save DCs
01	0-5 or 3-10	2d6*	11-16	17-22	0-5	10-35	12-15
02	1-5 or 4-12	3d6*	12-20	17-25	0-6	12-40	13-16
03	1-7 or 5-14	3d6	13-24	18-28	1-8	15-50	14-18
04	2-8 or 6-14	4d6	14-24	20-29	1-9	18-70	14-19
05	2-10 or 6-15	5d6	15-25	21-30	2-10	20-90	14-20
06	3-10 or 8-16	6d6	16-26	22-30	2-11	25-100	15-21
07	3-12 or 10-17	7d6	17-27	23-31	3-12	30-105	15-22
08	4-13 or 12-18	8d6	19-28	24-32	3-13	35-110	15-23
09	4-14 or 13-19	9d6	20-29	25-33	3-14	40-120	16-24
10	5-16 or 15-20	10d6	22-30	26-34	5-15	50-130	16-25
11	5-18 or 16-22	13d6	22-31	27-35	5-16	60-150	17-26
12	6-19 or 17-24	15d6	23-32	28-36	5-17	65-170	17-27
13	6-21 or 18-26	17d6	23-33	29-38	5-18	70-200	18-28
14	7-23 or 19-28	19d6	24-34	30-39	5-19	80-225	19-29
15	7-25 or 20-30	21d6	25-35	31-40	5-20	90-250	20-30
16	8-25 or 20-31	~85	26-36	33-41	6-22	95-275	21-31
17	8-25 or 21-32	~100	27-37	35-42	7-25	100-300	22-32
18	9-25 or 21-33	~125	28-38	37-43	8-30	100-325	23-33
19	9-25 or 22-34	~150	29-39	39-45	9-35	100-350	24-34
20	9-25 or 22-35	~175	30-40	40-47	10-40	100-400	25-35

For the most part, doing standard "Elite Array + 1 ability increase per 4 levels placed in your offensive stat + the standard pile of scaling Tome items + regular D&D bonuses that scale up with level" more or less keeps people there. It's a matter of, when designing any class, looking and making sure it stays in that range - and then if it falls outside an acceptable range, looking at whether that's best fixed by specifically modifying the class, modifying the system itself, making Evilties that cover it, or putting it into racial stuff.

[Username17]

The thing that leaps out from that chart is that by level 10 the low and the high are 15 points apart in enemy attack values, and that it isn't many levels later before the low and the high differ by 20. What this means is that the high level heavy armor knights are going to be literally off the RNG with respect to low end minions of their level. This in turn implies that you're looking for a more positional game, where the armor knight treats zombies at high level merely as scenery that they have to chop through - while presumably they still pose some sort of threat to the more fragile cloth wearers.

That makes the meaning of minions very different at different levels to different characters, which in turn means that they have to be considered differently for different parties. A 4e style Knights of the Round party, for example, would basically never take damage from skeletons, and the only meaning would be how long it took to hack their way through and get to the enemy artillery. On the flip side, a 4e style Striker Hit Squad would presumably blow up those minions at a faster rate but would also take real damage from those that got through the fiery explosions.

-Username17

[Koumei]

Pretty much, it's probably going to be worth emphasising "where you are standing on the field". And not "If I can stand on high ground I get +2 to hit" but more "If the knight stands out there, they have a 15' threat range and as many AoOs as they want and they can anchor you on their AoOs." and "Grand Fister, use the punch that forces enemies in an X-pattern 20' backwards so some of them fall off the edge there and have to make the long trek around."

Basically, making "I stand out here and enemies have trouble actually getting past me to reach squishier people" a viable life choice, and 4E-style enemy-shifting can be a thing worth doing, and at the same time people can just be "a healer" or "a big damage dealer" or "someone who piles status effects on", where minions can either be "a wall in the field that has to be chopped down" or "an enemy that can weaken you if you don't OHKO incinerate it first".

That's probably going to be the best way to keep minions relevant and live with the fact that monster numbers can vary wildly.

[maglag]

How will flying factors in all of this? Minions are a lot less wally if the damage dealers can just swoop over them to strike the commanders, and also terrain matters a lot less when you can just float over it.

[Zaranthan]

High level combat could involve flying minions with large ZoCs. Terrain features go from "big rock" and "grease spell" to "100' pillar of flame" and "massive 3D cloudkill".

Flight vs snazzy arenas is a problem in 3.X because flight move speeds are massive and obstacles tend to be 10-20 feet high. If going over a wall of iron costs your whole turn the way going around a sleet storm did, the system still works.

[Koumei]

Yeah, in a simple D&D hack where you can just take levels of Wizard and the DM is as likely to open the Monster Manual and pick out an Erinyes as not, you basically have to accept that Flight is really good for negating chunks of the game, and that can be fun.

But for this, I have to include flight at all because there are Imps and Empusae and Giant Moths, and advanced sword users can fly for their Slayer's Wrath and so on, but I am not bound to the kinds of flight D&D establishes as standard. The Disgaea games don't let flight actually negate the terrain thing completely (you basically can take really high "steps" and move through occupied squares, but can't move over impassable terrain or take off into "out of range"). This means it's fine to have flight be around the same speed as normal movement and be kind of clumsy in that you pretty much need to start and end your turn standing on things and so on.

[Koumei]

Right, so most monsters that will be created will either be scaling things (Awesome Races as options for players who want no class at all) or Minions (Eryngi and Slumber Cats are just things that you beat up in groups at low levels, Scrabbits and Stumps are a bit higher up but still minions). Because I'm kind of lazy and any D&D hack should let you grab existing D&D monsters to serve your laziness, I'm not recreating Oozes and Golems - instead, people can just fight regular Oozes (being mindful about which ones cause mass Paralysis or have Nauseating stenches and other game-ending shit) and Golems (remembering that Iron ones for no apparent reason can breathe paralysis).

I'm wondering what to do regarding damage types: Disgaea has Physical, Fire, Wind, Ice, Star and Untyped.

D&D has Piercing, Slashing, Bludgeoning, Fire, Cold, Electricity, Acid, Sonic, Dehydration (sort of), Force (sort of), "Divine", Holy/Good, Unholy/Evil, Anarchic/Chaotic, Axiomatic/Lawful, Light (sort of), Positive, Negative, Untyped, combinations of the above and who knows what else. Oh and also sort of "tags" like "Bludgeoning (but it's Magical)" and "Slashing (Cold Iron)".

At the very least I'd like to reduce the pool D&D is using there, and to some extent that's automatically done by limiting what's on the table - we don't have Gem Dragons breathing Light and Dehydration and nobody is specifically casting Horrid Wilting. But should weapons still be P/S/B? I'm more or less okay with that bit, and it can help with the tactical side at low levels (when you care that skeletons resist non-bludgeoning and tree stumps resist non-slashing). Should Sonic be scratched out and just be replaced with "Wind"? Do we need fucking Acid damage as being a special type? (Slimes in Disgaea just sort of... punch you for Physical damage, and sometimes have a poison rider)

Looking at it, the Disgaea set is the minimum. But I'm tempted to stick with the following:
-Slashing (includes Chopping)
-Piercing
-Bludgeoning (includes Crushing)
-Fire
-Cold
-Wind
-Electricity (just a handy thing to have, and a bunch of things in Disgaea have attacks that look like lightning, so let's just include it)
-Star (includes any Light and Force effects)
-Untyped
-Maybe a Negative Energy/Drain/Spooky Evilness thing?

(Obviously existing monsters may need a few small adjustments to reflect the damage types, the way magic works quite differently and so on)

[OgreBattle]

crushing, piercing, and slashing doesn't seem important when you can obliterate mountain tops.

Maybe it'd be better to create a list of conditions, and then associate it with damage types, than to make a list of damage types.

[Koumei]

Well I did specify it'd keep things different at low levels. Obviously at high levels you just don't care that the skeleton subtracts 5 from the 20d6 damage your slashing attack does.

As for the kind of status effects, there will be your standard Dead, Unconscious and Prone. I can't be fucked changing how Poison works so they will do their normal thing and that means "Poisoned" isn't a status. Ability Damage/Drain and Temporary Level Drain will be things but they're not exactly statuses. Confused is in (likewise Insane), Flat-Footed, Stunned (which basically also covers Dazed and Nauseated?), the various Fear effects, Charmed, Cursed, Blind, Incorporeal, Paralysed, Petrified, Asleep, Anchored, On Fire, Shrunk, Grown, Slowed, Hasted and some kind of "Amnesia" status that prevents you from using your Spells and Weapon Techs.

[Mechalich]

At least one Disgaea game broke down damage by weapon types - I think it was D D2 but I'd have to check to remember - so that's a choice with backing in the lore.

[Koumei]

Well they typically apply riders to various weapon types, but I don't want to go so far as to have all bludgeoning weapons automatically cause stacking AC penalties and all arrows to turn slain foes into treasure chests and so on.

[Koumei]

Okay, I've been working on bits and pieces of this as html files because that's how I roll these days, but here's what I have for the Samurai (and related, the Sword Techniques).

THE SAMURAI (Advanced Class)
Hit Points: 5 + Con (x4 at first level)
Skill Points: 4 + Int (x4 at first level)
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Tumble + Balance), Climb, Concentration, Craft (Any), Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Any), Perception (Spot + Listen), Ride, Sense Motive, Stealth (Hide + Move Silently), Swim

Weapon Proficiencies: Swords, Axes, Polearms, Bows (the equipment page will specify what counts as what)
Armour Proficiencies: Not Armour, Light Armour, Medium Armour

BAB: Good
Saves: Good Will

Level	Class Features
1	Ancestral Weapon, Bushido
2	Mind's Eye, Blade Rush
3	Kiai!, Comedy to the Shin
4	Hurricane Slash, Parry Projectiles
5	Spiritual Guidance, Head-to-Head
6	Blind Fighting, Dark Secrecy
7	Iaijutsu, Bonus Evilty
8	Crimson Rain
9	Blade of Devastation
10	Cleanse Evil
11	Iaijutsu Focus
12	Dark X Slash, Winged Slayer
13	Cut Magic
14	Summer Rain Slash
15	Advancement
16	Dimension Slash, Super Crosslord
17	To The Death!, Blade of Souls
18	Revenge Mode, (Advancement)
19	(Advancement)
20	Wings of Fire, Scrolls of Wisdom

Ancestral Weapon: Katana (1-handed 1d10 damage, 20/x3 critical). Always attuned, can be called from any distance with a Standard Action. Ghost Touch, Enhancement of +1 per 3 levels (round up).

Bushido (Ex): whenever he makes an attack against an enemy who is not Flanked or in a square threatened by the Samurai's allies, and the Samurai likewise is not threatened by the allies of his opponent, he has The Edge against his foe. Furthermore, any time he attacks or is attacked by a foe in that situation, and the attack does not include anybody else in the area of effect, he gains a point of Bushido. The maximum Bushido a samurai can hold is equal to half his level (round down) plus two. After he gains one or more points of Bushido, if he goes for five full rounds without gaining more, he loses his focus and loses all accumulated Bushido. At first level, spending a point of Bushido as part of an attack, after determining whether or not it hits, allows him to add his Wisdom Bonus to the damage roll, but later on it can be used for bigger effects.

Mind's Eye (Ex): starting at second level, the Samurai cannot be flanked - foes gain no benefit from doing so (although extra foes threatening his square will at least prevent him from gaining Bushido points).

Sword Techniques (Ex): as he gains levels, the Samurai learns a variety of Sword-based Techniques. At level two, he learns Blade Rush. Using this ability expends a point of Bushido. At level four, he learns Hurricane Slash. This expends a point of Bushido as well. At level eight, he learns Crimson Rain, which expends two points of Bushido. At level twelve, he learns both Dark X Slash and Winged Slayer, each requiring the expenditure of three points of Bushido. At level sixteen, he learns both Dimension Slash and Super Crosslord, each requiring four points of Bushido be spent. Finally, at level twenty he learns Wings of Fire, which costs five points of Bushido to use.

BLADE RUSH (Ex)
In the blink of an eye, the warrior dashes forwards, weaving past foes and slicing them in half. When he slows to a halt, they fall to the ground, dead.
With a Standard Action, the character performs a Partial Charge, only moving their regular Movement Speed in a Straight Line. They do not target a single foe, and may move through occupied squares (but not squares completely full of terrain, like walls - unless they already have the ability to move through them). They must end their movement in an unoccupied square.

The character makes a single attack roll, keeping in mind it is a Charge, and applies this attack against every enemy (and object, if applicable) they threaten at any point in the movement. Damage is rolled once and applied to every target hit, and if terrain is destroyed along the way, this can extend the movement out past that terrain.

HURRICANE SLASH (Su)
A windstorm rages around the helpless foe, and they can only briefly see the attacker, striking from different angles throughout the storm.
With a Standard Action, the character selects a target within double his normal reach on the horizontal plane, and no more than thirty feet higher or lower than him. Creating a relatively small tornado around him, the lower character is brought into the higher character's square. At this point, the attacker makes a single melee attack. If it hits, it deals normal weapon damage, plus 1d6 Wind damage per level. After the attack is resolved, the attacker moves up to ten feet in the direction of his choice and lands safely on the ground, and the attacked character is flung 1d6x10 feet in the opposite direction. The whirlwind remains until the start of the character's next turn, remaining stationary and potentially protecting against ranged attacks. If the attacker is higher than tenth level, the whirlwind remains for another round per level beyond tenth, and reaches to Medium Range from the ground.

CRIMSON RAIN (Ex)
The flying opponent is caught completely unaware as a blade pierces them from below. Blood showers the battlefield below, giving hope to allies.
With a Standard Action, the character selects a target within Close Range on the horizontal plane, and at least 10 feet higher than the character but no more than 150 feet. He makes a single attack against the foe, who is denied their Dexterity Bonus to Armour Class. If the attack hits, it deals normal weapon damage, plus 1d6 Slashing damage per level, and the target must pass a Fortitude Save (Strength-based) or begin falling. Either way, the attacker then lands harmlessly on his feet.

If the attack kills the foe, all allies within 60 feet of the attacker (upon landing) are cured of any Morale Penalties.

DARK X SLASH (Su)
With just a pair of slices, the target is caught in a dimensional rift, suffering an eternity of agony in just one moment.
With a Standard Action, the character makes two melee attacks against the target, both at their highest attack bonus. If at least one attack hits, the target suffers 15d6 Untyped damage, +2d6 extra damage for each level past 12. If both attacks hit, the target must also pass a Fortitude Save (Strength-based) or be forcefully sent to the Underworld. If the attack occurs in the Underworld, there is no additional effect on a failed Save.

This may alternatively be used to open a temporary travel portal to the Underworld, lasting for one minute. However it won't create portals back when you're already in the Underworld.

WINGED SLAYER (Su)
Borne aloft by wings of wrath, the warrior takes to the skies and brings destruction to all in his path.
As soon as a character learns this ability, they gain the ability to fly at a speed of 50 feet, though they can only fly in straight lines, similar to charging. Using this flight is not a part of using the Winged Slayer attack, and as such does not use any resources.

With a Full Round Action, the character may unleash the attack itself, making a flying Charge attack. If the attack hits, it deals damage as normal, but whether it hits or not, a Cone effect is created, starting in the target's square and extending outwards to Close Range. All in the area suffer 15d6 Magical Slashing damage, plus 2d6 additional damage for every level the attacker has past level 12, with a Reflex Save for half (Strength-based). This deals full damage to terrain, typically tunneling through the ground with the lower half of the cone, and reducing the surface to Difficult Terrain.

DIMENSION SLASH (Su)
The warrior's blade transforms into a wavering beam of pure destruction, a rift between worlds.
With a Standard Action, the character unleashes a slice out in a 5' wide Line reaching out to Medium Range, or alternatively, whirls it around, distorting the length of the blade to just hit everything within Close Range of them. Either way, everything in the area suffers 100 points of Untyped damage, plus 25 for each level the attacker has beyond 16th, with a Fortitude Save for half (Strength-based). Those who fail the save and are not slain outright are forcefully sent to a random world.

This may alternatively be used to open a temporary travel portal for one minute, either to a specific plane the character has visited before, or to "a random world" (character's choice).

SUPER CROSSLORD (Su)
With just a thought, the warrior enlarges his blade to blot out the sun, and cleaves the very land on which the battle takes place.
With a Swift Action, the character transforms his weapon such that it is far bigger than he is. Until the beginning of his next turn, the weapon threatens out to Close Range, and any attack is made in a 5' wide Line that reaches out to that full distance - it just has to include the target of a given attack, including Attacks of Opportunity. These attacks leave 20' deep crevasses in the terrain and typically cut all surrounding scenery apart, and each hit with the weapon deals 1d6 damage (of the weapon's usual type) per 2 levels.

WINGS OF FIRE (Su)
Fireballs rain upon foes as though from the heavens. When the storm ends, they look up to see the warrior incoming, burning with fury.
With a Full Round Action, the character may unleash this ultimate attack, as long as they are airborne at the start of their turn. First, they select a target within Charging distance. A firestorm is centred on that target, dealing 20d6 Fire damage to all within Medium Range, with a Reflex Save for half (Strength-based). The attacker then makes the actual flying charge, dealing normal damage if they hit. Whether or not they hit, however, there is an explosive eruption, causing all within Close Range to suffer 200 points of damage (half Slashing, half Fire), with a Fortitude Save for half (Strength-based). The ground beneath the targets takes full damage and is probably destroyed.

Kiai! (Ex): at third level, the Samurai gains the ability to convert successful attacks into automatic Critical Hits. He must spend a point of Bushido to do this, and does so after rolling a hit but before rolling damage. He may not use this ability for an Attack of Opportunity.

Comedy to the Shin (Ex): at level three, the Samurai learns a special technique which is unique to Samurai: a hit to the shin which hurts very much. With a Full Round Action, he makes a regular Charge attack. If it hits, it only deals half the usual amount of damage but also deals 1d6 point of Dexterity Damage, and he leaves the target Staggered for one round.

Parry Projectiles (Ex): starting at level four, the Samurai can cut projectiles out of the air. Against any ranged attack that rolls high enough to hit him, he may spend an Attack of Opportunity and make an attack roll. If his attack roll is higher than that of the incoming attack, it is cut from the air and he is unharmed. Otherwise, the attack hits normally.

Spiritual Guidance (Sp): at fifth level, a Samurai may seek guidance from his ancestors, or the nearby spirits, or his own memories from reincarnation. Once per day, he may cast Commune. He may also once per day cast Speak With Dead.

Head-to-Head (Ex): for a Samurai, the best way to attack someone is front-on, without trickery. As such, any time the fifth-level Samurai charges an opponent who is not denied their Dexterity Bonus to Armour Class, and who is not threatened by any of his allies, the Samurai may add his level to the damage roll as a Bonus. If he wishes, he may use a Free Action to shout a challenge to a foe who would normally be denied their Dexterity Bonus, thus allowing them the chance to defend properly: they are no longer denied their Dexterity Bonus to Armour Class, and as such the bonus damage applies if the other condition is met.

Blind Fighting (Ex): at level six, the Samurai gains Blind Fighting as a Bonus Evilty. This grants him the ability to roll twice and choose the better roll for any Miss Chance caused by Concealment, and can move at normal speeds in darkness without difficulty. He also doesn't need to guess the location of Invisible foes within sixty feet, able to pin-point their square via Blindsense.

Dark Secrecy (Su): at level six, the Samurai develops the technique of iaijutsuing people in half, moving as swiftly as a shadow in one fluid movement. At the cost of one point of Bushido, he may use a Standard Action to Teleport fifty feet and make a single attack against one opponent directly between the two points. The attack is resolved as a Touch Attack, and deals an additional 1d6 points of Slashing damage per two levels (round up).

Iaijutsu (Ex): whenever the seventh-level Samurai has The Edge on an opponent, he may take an Attack of Opportunity against that foe with an Immediate Action (spending both the Immediate Action and the Attack of Opportunity) at any time, without the foe needing to Provoke.

Bonus Evilty: at level seven, the Samurai chooses whether to gain Euthanasia or Kamikaze as a Bonus Evilty. These are essentially different sides of the same coin - deciding whether to be more effective against injured foes or to fight better when injured.

Kamikaze: When your Hit Points fall below half their normal maximum, you gain a +4 Circumstance Bonus to Attack and Damage rolls. When they fall below a quarter of their maximum, your Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier are both doubled.

Euthanasia: Performing a Coup de Grace is only a Standard Action for you, and may be performed on opponents who are merely Stunned. Killing an opponent grants you a +2 Morale Bonus to Attack and Damage rolls for a number of rounds equal to the hit dice of the target.

Blade of Devastation (Ex): at level nine, the Samurai ignores all Hardness and Material-based Damage Reduction (the kind overcome by either Silver, Iron, Wood or Adamantium) with his attacks, and can simply destroy unattended objects without needing to specifically attack them - he can attack someone hiding behind cover, automatically destroying the covering object (unless it is actually a piece of equipment held by the target) and continue the attack, without the Cover Bonus (which no longer exists). When wielding his Ancestral Weapon, he may use a Standard Action to destroy chunks of terrain up to 10x10x10 feet in size, or destroy up to a 10x10' section of a [Force] effect.

Cleanse Evil: killing demons is very important. At level ten, the Samurai gains Cleanse Evil as a Bonus Evilty. This grants him The Edge against all creatures with the [Demon] Subtype as long as he recognises them as such. He also has +3 to Attack rolls and Save DCs for any effects against these creatures. If a [Demon] takes on a different form, he can see through it with Sense Motive against their Bluff, thus gaining the other effects of this Evilty.

Iaijutsu Focus (Ex): starting at level eleven, the Samurai may spend one point of Bushido to, as an Immediate Action, unleash his full array of Attacks of Opportunity at once, even if the foe does not Provoke. This still uses the Attacks of Opportunity for that round.

Cut Magic (Ex): at level thirteen, a Samurai can attack ongoing spell effects by attacking the square they are in (for Area of Effect Spells and Spell-Like Abilities) or the Object or Person (for targeted effects - dealing damage to the target as normal). He has to roll high enough to hit the target (for targeted effects), and his attack roll must also be at least as high as the Caster Level + 10. If successful, the effect is Dispelled (or, for area effects, a 10x10x10' area is Dispelled). Additionally, his attacks ignore any improvements to Armour Class gained from Spells or Spell-Like Abilities, including effects cast by items.

Summer Rain Slash (Ex): at level fourteen, the final attack of the Samurai is learned: a series of strikes that build upon each other. Just as no individual drop of rain drenches someone yet standing in the rain leaves you soaked, no individual slice is deadly yet the combined assault can fell almost any foe. With a Standard Action, he spends three Bushido and makes one melee attack roll, and subtracts the opponent's Armour Class. If the result is a positive number, he delivers that many regular hits. Otherwise, the attack misses.

Advancement: at level fifteen, the Samurai gets to decide how to upgrade into something beyond being a "mere" Samurai: he can become an Iaijutsu Master, a Storm Blade, an Exorcist, or Demon Samurai.

An Iaijutsu Master is straight-up the best at iaijutsuing people in half. That's a word and you know it. Anyone struck by his Attacks of Opportunity must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + half his level + his Wisdom Bonus) or be Dazed for one round. A successful save grants immunity to further uses for five rounds. At level eighteen, he gains Deny Armour (Ex): all attacks with his Ancestral Weapon resolves his attacks as Touch Attacks and ignores all Damage Reduction. At level nineteen, he becomes an Iaijutsu Grand Master (Ex): every time he makes an Attack of Opportunity, it is an automatic Critical Hit.

A Storm Blade channels thunder and lightning through his blade, and treats the wind as an ally. He gains a constant Air Walk effect, gains Wind Resistance and Electricity Resistance equal to his level, and learns the special technique Gale Cutter (Su): by spending one point of Bushido, he may make an attack with his Ancestral Weapon as a Swift Action, and add his Wisdom Bonus to the damage. The damage of the entire attack becomes Wind damage. At level eighteen, he learns the Storm Cutter Style (Su): all Attacks of Opportunity he makes deal +3d8 Electricity damage and cause lightning to arc out, dealing 1d8 + his Wisdom Bonus in Electricity damage to all other enemies within 10 feet of the target (no save). At level nineteen, he learns the mystic technique of Typhoon Dancer (Su): within a one mile radius, the weather is whatever he wants it to be. It takes a Full Round Action to change his mind and cause the weather to mystically realign to his wishes, but he can in fact do that. The weather effects of others in this area can only last for up to one round each if they are incompatible with the weather he is creating (so most direct-damage elemental spells will still work, as will summoning elemental creatures, but if there is no wind, there will be no lasting hurricanes, and if there is a downpour, fires will be extinguished).

An Exorcist specialises in fighting and killing demons, fighting with virtue and righteousness. Nothing disqualifies demons from being Exorcists. The Exorcist radiates a permanent 10' radius Magic Circle Against Evil, and generates twice as many points of Bushido from all foes with the [Demon] Subtype. At level eighteen, he gains the Consecrating Strike (Su): any Attack of Opportunity he makes against a [Demon] is automatically upgraded to a Critical Hit if it hits, and forces them to attempt a Will Save (DC 10 + half his level + his Wisdom Bonus) or be banished to their home plane. At level nineteen, he gains Infinite Justice (Ex): his Weapon Techniques no longer cost any Bushido as long as the only targets are [Demon] creatures. For single-target effects, this is a matter of "targeting a [Demon]", whereas Area of Effect abilities may require aiming carefully.

A Demon Samurai fights for the Netherworld, either starting as a demon or becoming one and taking on hellish aspects. He gains the Mantle of the Dark One (Su): any time he wears armour of any kind, after ten minutes it transforms into Demon Armour ((which will basically be really good Medium Armour in this game)). It retains all magical properties, but also grants him the ability to see all living creatures - they can hide, but they can't just turn Invisible. He even sees them if Blinded. Any living creature slain within 20 feet of him has part of its Mana Power absorbed through the armour, restoring 1d10 lost Hit Points to the Samurai. If he removes the armour, it returns to its former form unless he has worn it continuously for a year. At level eighteen, he gains Blade of Terror (Su): he may use a Standard Action at will to terrify his foes, making one Demoralise attempt against all enemies within Line of Sight. If he successfully affects a foe, they become Paralyzed with Fear for 1 round per 3 levels and he gains 1 point of Bushido. Anyone who resists the effect becomes Immune until the next sunset. At level nineteen, he learns Hell Razor (Su): when wielding his Ancestral Weapon, he can make attacks out to any range he can see (although he doesn't threaten this infinite range). Additionally the damage dealt by the weapon cannot be healed in any way until the victim is either killed and Resurrected, or until they receive a Restoration effect.

To the Death! (Ex): at level seventeen, the Samurai learns a very dangerous technique, one that can cut both ways: by stepping in and deliberately throwing himself into the attack he launches, he can deal more damage, but put himself in a position to easily be killed by a counter attack. Before making an attack, he may declare it is To The Death!, in which case it automatically deals maximum damage, and adds his level to the damage roll. However, if this does not kill the target (such as by missing), he then Provokes an Attack of Opportunity from them, which also deals maximum damage and adds the attacker's level to the damage.

Blade of Souls (Ex): any enemy killed by the seventeenth-level Samurai's Ancestral Weapon has his soul sucked into the blade. The enemy cannot be brought back from the dead in any way until either the Blade is broken or the Samurai willingly releases the soul. If he doesn't want to do that, the Samurai can instead refine and sell the soul (at a value of the Challenge Rating, squared, multiplied by 100 Hell) or consume it to regain one point of Bushido.

Revenge Mode (Ex): starting at level eighteen, the Samurai reacts poorly to critical hits, unleashing hell against his foe. Any time he suffers a Critical Hit from a foe who grants him Bushido Points (meeting the requirements), he gains a number of additional Bushido Points equal to his Wisdom Bonus (minimum +1 for at least 2 Points gained).

Scrolls of Wisdom (Ex): the twentieth-level Samurai has reached the pinnacle of his art, and may spend a month composing a treatise of his collected wisdom. Once it is written, he may distribute it to others - any reader who has at least one level of Samurai gains a +2 Bonus to attack other characters with Samurai levels, except for the Samurai who wrote the treatise (against whom they suffer a -8 Penalty to hit).

At this pinnacle of enlightenment, the Samurai gains certain benefits that are retained even should he perform a True Reincarnation*: his Wisdom is increased by 2 points, and as long as at least one copy of the treatise exists he does not age. He retains the Ancestral Weapon even if he performs a True Reincarnation into something else, and retains his Proficiency with it, although its Enhancement Bonus is "reset", and he retains the Bushido and Kiai! abilities (recalculating the maximum based on his new level). An Iaijutsu Master retains his Iaijutsu Grand Master ability. A Storm Blade retains his Gale Cutter ability and Wind and Electricity Resistance. An Exorcist retains his Consecrating Strike ability. A Demon Samurai retains his Blade of Terror ability.

*The game will have two types of Reincarnation: Basic, where you just rebuild your character between sessions, and True, which is the "Okay you hit level 20, let's do something broken" games are apparently supposed to have. Characters will start again at first level, but keep certain features and gain some bonuses. I don't even care that it will be a bit of a mess there, you've just played through past level 20.

Alternate Samurai:
If the player wishes and Mister Cavern agrees, the Samurai may focus on the use of spears: the Ancestral Weapon is a Naginata, and instead of Sword Techniques, he gains access to Polearm Techniques: Impaler Drop at level two, Pole Charge at level four, Storm Shock at level eight, Around the Moon and Phoenix Valour at level twelve, Divine Storm and Meteor Sky Spear at level sixteen, and Brunhilda at level twenty. The Bushido costs remain the same.

[maglag]

That class seems awfully glass-cannonish. You're basically guaranteed to kill anything that comes too close, on the other hand has nill defensive abilities and a simple Grease spell (can't be dispelled because instant conjuration lol, no HP to be destroyed) locks you into place to be picked up at leisure by ranged attacks.

[Koumei]

Overall I did want it to be a glass cannon class, because that's how the Samurai rolls in the games (doubly so in Makai Kingdom where they wield the Katana which is +$TEXAS to attack and -$TEXAS to defence and has high damage single-target attacks). They run up and kill an enemy boss in one go... and then on the next turn they get murdered.

On the other hand that's not so great for tabletop, I may have tweaked it a bit too far in that direction. Now is specifically Grease a problem in a game where basically all the spells are actually elemental things and not just picked at will from the spell lists? No. On the other hand, archers exist and a simple case of 8 enemy scouts at level -4 could still actually be dangerous.

[OgreBattle]

Let the samurai deflect ranged attacks to some degree, they can already learn to cut magic so cutting arrows and bullets seems plausible.

By the way, you read Kouta Hirano's "Drifters?"
The samurai class and abilities of all out offense kill before being killed fits the protagonist to a tee. It's also kinda Disgaea-like with Nobunaga trying to rebuild his empire in a fantasy world of sorcery while cowboys are wandering around.

[Mechalich]

One thing you might do is increase the range of the sword techs. In Disgaea bow and gun range and even low-level magic range (before you pump it up to essentially the whole map) are not significantly larger than many tech attacks. Blade Rush allows you to hit a character 3 squares away, basic bow attacks only get you 4 (techs can get you to 5) and Guns have more but only in straight lines. Additionally, 4-5 squares is usually not more than equal to movement range for reasonable mobile classes.

Also, assuming you're going to implement something resembling the lift+throw mechanic, that has a huge influence on how range functions in Disgaea combat. I mean, decent throwing classes can throw a character just as far as a ranged attack can reach.

[maglag]

More correctly, Drifters it's ye old fantasy world where big personalities that died violently somehow end. Hannibal ends up as Nobunaga's tactical advisor.

The big bad seems to be nobody else than Jesus Christ, using his food multiplication and healing sticks to gather and maintain a giant army of monsters. He also hates humankind now after the whole "got crucified and then they went back to killing each other completely missing my point" part.

However Drifters it's a lot more down to earth than Disgaea. There's only a small handful of magic users and the melee dudes aren't gonna be splitting any mountains in half. Even a regular stone wall is a big obstacle. Rations and supplies are things that matter. Battles are won by mass-producing gunpowder and training militia to use it.

[Mechalich]

There's only a small handful of magic users and the melee dudes aren't gonna be splitting any mountains in half. Even a regular stone wall is a big obstacle.

Funny thing about Disgaea is that, while attack animations do include mountains being sliced in half and planets thrown at other planets and other insanity, stone walls are actually still massively important tactical obstacles. The animations are purely cosmetic and don't represent what characters can actually do at all -this being one of Disgaea's more subtle jokes.

Obviously you don't want to hew to that too closely in tabletop, but Disgaea is still a lot more restrained and simplified than it appears cosmetically. Heck, Disgaea is actually less complex, tactically, than Makai Kingdom or Phantom Brave, which had greater variability of movement and a more complex 3rd dimension of combat.

[maglag]

Well I believe it's more of an engine limitation/dev lazyness. Making a game where mountains get blown up by powerful attacks as collateral damage takes quite a lot of work, and it's a bitch to balance.

XCom kinda gets away with destructible terrain because the terrain is often also loot, so going around demolishing everything means a lot less shinies.

In Spring RTS, something like a nuke will actually produce a big deep crater. And if it's near water it will turn into a small lake. And destroyed units remain as obstacles in the battlefield, depending on their original size and how powerful was the attack that destroyed them. So at early stages of the game it's actually possible to use your fallen allies as cover for your other units to advance. But as more powerful units enter play, mooks are plain disintegrated by attacks.

Still Disgaea has you fighting in the middle of infernal volcanos and celestial floating islands and atop sci-fi flying battleships (which you didn't destroy just because you can claim it as a trophy).

[Koumei]

I have now given the Samurai (in the html file, I haven't edited the above post) "Parry Projectiles" at level 4. If a ranged attack hits him, he can spend an AoO to make an attack roll, and if he beats the attack roll, it is negated. So it's not a perfect defence (especially seeing as anything high enough to hit in the first place is already setting a moderately high DC there), and each AoO burned on not getting shot is an AoO that can't be used to maim somebody. I think that works out to be fair enough.

Looking over the various SGT scenarios, they typically tell a similar story:
Groups of minions are a piece of cake (despite largely denying use of the flashier attacks). Stronger enemies that still might be fought in pairs or "singular, but there are a few on the map" (like Ogres at level 5), are almost definite wins, usually in 1-2 turns with some damage in between. "Boss" monsters (and all of the Vines, which stand out as particularly good against him) are actually likely to win if they take him more than 1-2 rounds (and this is likely at the lower levels, and "at higher levels when not carrying banked Bushido from previous battles on the same map"), but as part of a party he can contribute without running around as the Solo Champion.

I'm mostly happy with how that has turned out, eyeballing it.

[Koumei]

I've been working out the basic stuff for a few other classes, and it's looking like there could easily be 4-5 Advanced Classes for each Basic Class:

Warrior:
-Samurai
-Berserker
-Knight
-Monk
*You could put the Rune Knight here, or argue that the Dark Knight warrants being its own thing instead of a Knight Prestige Class

Scout:
-Thief of Souls (or Master Thief or whatever - the kind that can steal your stats)
-Archer
-Gunner (you could merge Archer and Gunner together, to be honest)
-Ninja
-Assassin (with Daggers and Guns and your D&D style hiding and crap, or make it Flanking-based and call it a Swashbuckler as seen in Disgaea 5. Whereas the Ninja tends to use daggers/swords/fists/staves and throw a variety of status spells)

Mage (which gets to choose between Red, Blue, Green and Star):
-Prism Mage
-Sage (Star Mage+++)
-Rune Knight
-Shaman (for all your detrimental status magic of course)
*Maybe throw in the Necromancer from... was that D5? Or one of the DLC packs for D4 or DD2?

Healer:
-Heretic (can anti-heal as a form of damage-dealing and status-causing)
-Saint (not just "more healing" (that too), but also protective auras and resistances)
-Something that is great at throwing a variety of buffs around and utilising auras, more than just casting healing spells. Such as the Cheerleader, Idol, Maid or Officer.
*Maybe the Scientist can return, with the ability to buff and heal through strange means, and the ability to create the crazy weapons and vehicles of Makai Kingdom - they can then inject you with hit points and stuff
*Maybe the Combat Medic? Basically a Healer but more sturdy and with the ability to shoot fools in the face

I'm not sure on the exact number to go with, but it looks fairly solid with something in that region of options.

[maglag]

Monk sounds like it should be something available as a base class.

You could shift some of the advanced classes you already have to it, like ninja (monk++ with fists of fire and whatnot), shaman (monk that specializes in striking vital points for debuffs and fear auras), saint (you have attained such purity of mind and body that you know how to share it with other people) and maid/butler.