It was Perfect. It was Perfect again. Ready for PMK3
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Shrieking Banshee
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Man I just don't have good luck on this forum. Every time I open my gob I sound like im 13 years old. Maybe its best I don't post these at 3 AM
Originally Posted by WithScience View Post
Everything spoiled in the insider was already spoiled in the leak, and Soles said he wasn't going to spoil anything new. Other than asking about the logic behind design decisions, what was there to talk about?
I'm absolutely baffled by this insider. People started by asking very neutral, respectful questions about why particular design decisions were made. Soles was either unwilling or unable to answer with anything substantial, falling back instead on vacuous, snarky nonsense. When asked by Lightning Strike was range: self, he said:
That's the entire substance of the answer, without alteration or abbreviation. I'm not a game designer, but if someone asked me to explain a major, faction-redefining change, I would take that opportunity to flex my design expertise and explain in a frank way what went wrong and right in Circle in Mk2 and how the lessons learned from that lead to design changes. At the very least, I would mention it in the Insider. Instead, we get that the change was "pretty much a no brainer for us" with basically no explanation. Compare that response to the depth he goes into on the Sentry Stones. Or even why the Wold Guardian traded girded for shield guard.
When counter-intuitive terrain interactions were pointed out to him, he insisted that they were mechanically clear. When some asked about the shifting stones change and whether the Fulcrum could be placed in the same post, he said there was no connection. When I asked him about the reduced range of the shifting stones, he basically declined to comment.
Even if you didn't start that insider angry, I don't know how you could have finished it with an even temper. Soles comes off as either deliberately being a jerk or asleep at the wheel.
I haven't played Mk3 yet, so I can't speak to balance, but pretty much everything I liked about Circle has gone through a blender and no one seems capable of articulating any of the logic behind it.
When they announced Mk3, I stopped playing Mk2 almost immediately. I went to one tournament and realized a large number of Mk2 games were absolutely no fun. I was just playing them because I liked getting better at the game. I'm starting to think that Mk3 might be a logical stopping place. I'm sure I could keep playing and find ways to win with new Circle, but why bother?
That is fair. I was a bit short with my answers, and for that I apologize. The Insider went up late and I had a long list of things to get through offline yesterday.
As far as giving detailed explanations of various design decisions go, it is not always as simple as it seems. There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle, and some of them are still moving. In addition to model stats, there are also the core rules to take into account, theme forces that are still being play tested, and an evolving errata doc.
With regards to Lightning Strike in particular, it was changed to reduce the number of models that can strike and move back to safety. Why? Because having that ability on tap is bad for the game so it was engineered out. It was changed April 28, 2014 which was a long time ago for us. We have been play testing a Circle without it for so long that it is only when we watch or play games at conventions that we see how it formerly functioned and that usually leaves us walking away assured we made the correct choice.
The change to the Shifting Stone's place effects was so long ago it is not even in my notes... That likely means August of 2013. The change was made because we were both reigning in the distance of place effects and making "completely within". Why was the change made? Because "completely within" is a lot more manageable and does not vary based on the base size of the model placed. It is better for the game.
When someone tells me they find the terrain rules counter-intuitive I can do little more than say, "ok noted" and reiterate how they are supposed to work. Honestly, what is expected here? For every person that finds them counter intuitive some number find them perfectly intuitive. At this point, however, what they are is fact.
With regards to the change to the Wold Guardian, I tried to make it clear that we changed the model so that it was able to take the big hit for another model (Shield Guard) rather than mitigate a number smaller hits (Girded). I added, "Shield Wall is an easier rules to use that requires less precision placement, especially after it went up to range 3"." Is there more insight you were looking for here?
I hope I was able to shed a little more light on our design decisions for you above.
So, this has been dead for a while, but so have I, so fuck it.
Sadly, this isn't the clusterfuck for Privateer that I think it should be. This edition should honestly have been greeted with screams of outrage from its customer base, as it is just a mess. A Games Workshop type mess, where the major change is army composition for the sake of making people toss viable models on the shelf and buy more shit. Now you must run more warjacks. Rules changes don't fix any system problems, but just shuffle points and jiggle very specific special rules around on the cards.
I read the rulebook (free pdf, which is...something), just laughed in disgust and packed everything away.
----
Some outstanding effects in the realm of fucked up design:
--
All the background and fluff got ripped out the rulebooks. So, given the rules pdf is free, and the other rules are on cards that come with the model (which you need to rebuy because gotta fuck you somehow for that cash), there is zero point in ever buying a book from PP again.
--
Even more shitty little icons that don't in any represent the abilities they theoretically stand for. Including another arrow, but this one points diagonally rather than horizontally, so obviously it is assault (shoot and charge) rather than advanced deployment. Or the flaming wheel that is disruption joining the flame (damage type fire), flame with arrow (continuous fire) or flame with sparkles (Critical fire, which is 'continuous fire if the shot was a critical hit,' and not 'damage type fire on a critical hit')
--
Line of sight got fucking weird, and gets a lot of complaints to no avail. (Shouted down by fanboys because its easier, and gets rid of the toeing into a terrain piece and getting a full bonus). Basically, what it works out to is this:
model A is shooting:
model B is in the open in front of model A: no penalties. Fine.
model C is partially in the front of a forest: no penalties. Different, but...OK
model D is completely inside the forest, but not more than 3" in: concealment (+2 def), fine.
model F is completely on the other side of the forest: cannot be seen, too much forest in the way. Also fine.
Model E is on the back edge of the forest , but only partially within (ie, between model D and F. CAN be seen and does NOT get concealment. Because partial = fuck you always.
This is completely gibberish, but apparently how it is intended to work (but it isn't really apparent from casually reading the rules, so many a forum discussion cropped up about it in the immediate aftermath.
--
My personal favorite is that the book layout was designed by a madman or moron.
The second section is entitled Models, and is apparently 8 pages. However it stops being about models three pages in and starts gibbering about units, profiles, stats, cards, advantages (all the little special rules represented by icons, except the ones on weapons which are entirely different and called weapon qualities), and damage grids, before picking up again on models and talking about base size and facing.
--
Gamplay picks up on page 28. It manages to go about five pages, through the turn order, activation and covers most of movement before it falls apart and starts frothing at the mouth. Because this is where the movement phase is interrupted by the rules for being pushed, slammed and being thrown. Not how to push, slam or throw, just the effects of those combat actions. Which, is the next section after a brief digression into the completely voluntary action of placing models (with teleport effects) or replacing models (because they still use a very clunky system involving the unit officer even though that barely matters anymore because they removed psychology from the game).
Then the combat action gets explained. And by 'explained,' I mean they mention what you can as a combat action, what a basic, special or additional attack are, in terms of rules, but not do them. Because like the rules for throwing or slamming, these things are mentioned and defined, but the actual rules don't come for another 10 pages or so. In the combat section. Instead, have four full pages of someone who is still somehow bad at this try to explain LOS with copious visual aids. Followed by a bit on point of origin and a tiny paragraph on measuring range... before the combat chapter starts.
The Combat section opens with making attacks and the attack roll. If you want to know what kind of attacks you can make, you must inexplicably flip back five pages into gameplay to see what kind of attacks you are in fact allowed to make. Four pages after this you can find out how to slam and throw models and go back and reference the effects of being slammed and thrown which are now a full eleven pages back. Because fuck you.
--
Now granted, they did reduce the three pages of two types of throws to a single type of throw (having a second hand just gives you a bonus rather than being a completely different type of throw), but they still have a goddamn full page example and 'another example' to try explain what they meant. This amazing achievement was accomplished by ripping out the middle bits of the old throw rules and replacing it with 'you can throw up to half your strength in inches.' If something else is in range, you can throw at that, and it autohits. If not, you can throw directly away from the thrower and the thrown model deviates according to the stupid blast template. The end.
--
Anyway. Weird bullshit and the complete inability to properly organize and layout a book aside, the game is mostly the same, a little worse in places (and much was resolved like psychology: it was hard, so it got hacked out). But their inability to write well still stands out. Being fucking knockdowned is still three goddamn paragraphs and an example (a full half of a column in a two column page) and full of shit, gibberish and fucking recursion.
Also they broke several factions and are full-on fellating gunlines at the moment, because of the way the new bonus focus rules works for single shot warjacks. They're effectively autonomous and cost the warcaster no game resources, and are therefor strictly better than anything that does actually require support. As should be (and was to outside observers not drinking the kool-aid) obvious
Sadly, this isn't the clusterfuck for Privateer that I think it should be. This edition should honestly have been greeted with screams of outrage from its customer base, as it is just a mess. A Games Workshop type mess, where the major change is army composition for the sake of making people toss viable models on the shelf and buy more shit. Now you must run more warjacks. Rules changes don't fix any system problems, but just shuffle points and jiggle very specific special rules around on the cards.
I read the rulebook (free pdf, which is...something), just laughed in disgust and packed everything away.
----
Some outstanding effects in the realm of fucked up design:
--
All the background and fluff got ripped out the rulebooks. So, given the rules pdf is free, and the other rules are on cards that come with the model (which you need to rebuy because gotta fuck you somehow for that cash), there is zero point in ever buying a book from PP again.
--
Even more shitty little icons that don't in any represent the abilities they theoretically stand for. Including another arrow, but this one points diagonally rather than horizontally, so obviously it is assault (shoot and charge) rather than advanced deployment. Or the flaming wheel that is disruption joining the flame (damage type fire), flame with arrow (continuous fire) or flame with sparkles (Critical fire, which is 'continuous fire if the shot was a critical hit,' and not 'damage type fire on a critical hit')
--
Line of sight got fucking weird, and gets a lot of complaints to no avail. (Shouted down by fanboys because its easier, and gets rid of the toeing into a terrain piece and getting a full bonus). Basically, what it works out to is this:
model A is shooting:
model B is in the open in front of model A: no penalties. Fine.
model C is partially in the front of a forest: no penalties. Different, but...OK
model D is completely inside the forest, but not more than 3" in: concealment (+2 def), fine.
model F is completely on the other side of the forest: cannot be seen, too much forest in the way. Also fine.
Model E is on the back edge of the forest , but only partially within (ie, between model D and F. CAN be seen and does NOT get concealment. Because partial = fuck you always.
This is completely gibberish, but apparently how it is intended to work (but it isn't really apparent from casually reading the rules, so many a forum discussion cropped up about it in the immediate aftermath.
--
My personal favorite is that the book layout was designed by a madman or moron.
The second section is entitled Models, and is apparently 8 pages. However it stops being about models three pages in and starts gibbering about units, profiles, stats, cards, advantages (all the little special rules represented by icons, except the ones on weapons which are entirely different and called weapon qualities), and damage grids, before picking up again on models and talking about base size and facing.
--
Gamplay picks up on page 28. It manages to go about five pages, through the turn order, activation and covers most of movement before it falls apart and starts frothing at the mouth. Because this is where the movement phase is interrupted by the rules for being pushed, slammed and being thrown. Not how to push, slam or throw, just the effects of those combat actions. Which, is the next section after a brief digression into the completely voluntary action of placing models (with teleport effects) or replacing models (because they still use a very clunky system involving the unit officer even though that barely matters anymore because they removed psychology from the game).
Then the combat action gets explained. And by 'explained,' I mean they mention what you can as a combat action, what a basic, special or additional attack are, in terms of rules, but not do them. Because like the rules for throwing or slamming, these things are mentioned and defined, but the actual rules don't come for another 10 pages or so. In the combat section. Instead, have four full pages of someone who is still somehow bad at this try to explain LOS with copious visual aids. Followed by a bit on point of origin and a tiny paragraph on measuring range... before the combat chapter starts.
The Combat section opens with making attacks and the attack roll. If you want to know what kind of attacks you can make, you must inexplicably flip back five pages into gameplay to see what kind of attacks you are in fact allowed to make. Four pages after this you can find out how to slam and throw models and go back and reference the effects of being slammed and thrown which are now a full eleven pages back. Because fuck you.
--
Now granted, they did reduce the three pages of two types of throws to a single type of throw (having a second hand just gives you a bonus rather than being a completely different type of throw), but they still have a goddamn full page example and 'another example' to try explain what they meant. This amazing achievement was accomplished by ripping out the middle bits of the old throw rules and replacing it with 'you can throw up to half your strength in inches.' If something else is in range, you can throw at that, and it autohits. If not, you can throw directly away from the thrower and the thrown model deviates according to the stupid blast template. The end.
--
Anyway. Weird bullshit and the complete inability to properly organize and layout a book aside, the game is mostly the same, a little worse in places (and much was resolved like psychology: it was hard, so it got hacked out). But their inability to write well still stands out. Being fucking knockdowned is still three goddamn paragraphs and an example (a full half of a column in a two column page) and full of shit, gibberish and fucking recursion.
The Warmachine rules are often referred to as 'tight.' Because they are super fucking wordy and chase down every single worthless exception they can think of into the corner and rant at it for half an hour. And two months later add another paragraph because someone smarter than them thought up another goddamn exception.Rules for knockdown, second paragraph. wrote:A knocked down model can stand up at the start of its next activation unless it became knocked down during its controller’s turn. In that case it cannot stand up until its controller’s next turn, even if it has not yet activated this turn. A model cannot stand up during a turn it was knocked down. Knockdown is not cumulative; a model cannot become knocked down while it is knocked down.
Also they broke several factions and are full-on fellating gunlines at the moment, because of the way the new bonus focus rules works for single shot warjacks. They're effectively autonomous and cost the warcaster no game resources, and are therefor strictly better than anything that does actually require support. As should be (and was to outside observers not drinking the kool-aid) obvious
Last edited by Voss on Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.