Flight and Teleportation in RPGs

[zugschef]

Where is the point at which flight and teleportation should become available, respectively?

DnD basically hands the ability to teleport out at first and flying as early as level 3. Adventures which can end in slaughter become trivially easy, so the biggest impact these abilities have, is unfortunately that they make the MC's job harder. It's also quite frustrating for players when they have to rely on suboptimal tactics just because one guy can't ride the ride.

If we look at literature, Perseus for example, this dude has a flying mount which he gets by dm fiat from his father Zeus. What level -- in DnD terms -- is Perseus? Ability-wise this dude is something like 3rd level at best, yet he's got magic equipment like a 7th or higher level chatacter.

Where is the source of this discrepancy?

Are PCs too low powered and wizards are the balance point or is Perseus simply not a 3rd level character and his swag is part of his class features (which makes wizards act on a different level)?

[Schleiermacher]

Flight needs to come online at a fairly low level, because flying monsters come online at level 1, although I think 3rd is too early because at that point "having thumbs" is still a big part of your problem-solving suite and many (most?) monsters will be totally unable to deal with a flying character, so flight allows you to bypass too many challenges.

1-shot "one character flies for an encounter or two"-flight works pretty well right where it is, with Fly -at 5th level any monster that can be defeated by one flying guy is one that you're intended to kite to death, and challenges that you need to fly to overcome are all but nonexistent (you've been fighting flying enemies for 4 levels already, but none that can't be defeated by the simple expedient of bringing bows along), but challenges that can be knot-cut by bridging a chasm or ascending a cliff or whatnot are very level-appropriate.

Meanwhile at level 9, most monsters can either fly and kite you from the air, or they're closet trolls, or they live in environments that flat-out preclude flight (Underwater/burrowing underground) so at this level everyone should be able to fly reliably -by 11th level, self-motivated expeditions to cloud castles begin to look attractive and characters have had flight on tap for a few levels, so those characters who have it as part of their idiom should be able to fly constantly from this level without it eating up a huge chunk of their resources.

Short-range in-combat teleportation can have whatever limitations you want and so can in principle be available from first level... but I'm not really a fan of that, especially since most of the printed low-level teleportation abilities work out to be very powerful in knot-cutting applications.

I think Dimension Door as a 4th level spell is a nice benchmark. Perhaps you could lower it to 3rd if you really wanted -and things like shadowdancer BAMFing could definitely come online then. So, character level 5-8 is appropriate for short-range in-combat teleportation IMO.

Overland-scale point-and-click teleportation is something I think is far too easily available in D&D, because getting Teleport at level 9 (or even Greater Teleport at level 13) makes cool spells like Wind Walk, Shadow Walk, Word of Recall and Transport via Plants far less relevant. Honestly if I had my way I'd leave that for 17th level (Teleportation Circle/rewritten Gate) -the ability to go anywhere in the setting at the drop of a hat, and bring your friends along, seems like an appropriate top-tier ability to me.

[Kaelik]

The answer is... It depends.

First off, the difference between teleporting 10ft and "anywhere you've ever seen or heard of" is pretty huge.

10ft teleports aren't a problem for the game even if they come online at level 1.

But secondly, there is the issue of cost. If you have to give up one of your few highest level attack spells in order to fly for one fight, then... fuck, that's a huge cost for not a lot of gain. I mean, be honest, how many level 5 Wizards actually memorize fly that often, much less the multiple times needed to get the whole party to fly. On the other hand, Dragonborn get to fly with almost no cost in resources, since they operate on a completely different resource pool (racial features).

[zugschef]

10ft teleports aren't a problem for the game even if they come online at level 1.

That is debatable.

Abrupt jaunt or benign transposition in combination with a flying familiar trivialize a lot of "how do you get there"-puzzles. Or rather they don't because only one or two guys in the party can do that. An uneven distribution of these abilities is a "party-splitter", and we all know how shitty splitting up the group tends to be for the game. You're basically shutting out half of the players out of the game half of the time (and that's only possible in theory, in practice one side gets a lot more attention than the other).

Divinations are a problem because they shortcut a whole lot of investigation adventure hooks, but movement options actually are equally or maybe even more problematic because they shortcut a whole bunch of other adventure hooks, but only when the hole party has these abilities or the effect works for the whole party. That's because if you use a divination for information gathering at least the whole party benefits, but if the wizard jaunts into the sealed tomb all by himself and the rest of the party has to wait outside it's really bad for the game in most cases.

[maglag]

Abrupt jaunt or benign transposition in combination with a flying familiar trivialize a lot of "how do you get there"-puzzles. Or rather they don't because only one or two guys in the party can do that. An uneven distribution of these abilities is a "party-splitter", and we all know how shitty splitting up the group tends to be for the game. You're basically shutting out half of the players out of the game half of the time (and that's only possible in theory, in practice one side gets a lot more attention than the other).

Short range teleportation also shuts down a crapload of combat tactics. Cages, shackles, bars, grappling, suddenly the lv1 wizard with Abrupt Jaunt gets to laugh at all of that.

There's a reason why pro players in Dota 1/2 are willing to burn a valuable item slot for an expensive item that provides nothing else besides a short range teleport.

[zugschef]

Short range teleportation also shuts down a crapload of combat tactics. Cages, shackles, bars, grappling, suddenly the lv1 wizard with Abrupt Jaunt gets to laugh at all of that.

I'm not even sure that that can't be positive for the game insofar, as it actually encourages monsters to attack the non-squishy characters. It's a non-dumb solution to the problem that defense- and protection-focused characters kinda blow.

[Mechalich]

It's worth noting that there's no inherent reason why flying monsters need to come online at level one. Many fantasy worlds don't have a large number of flying monsters, and many of those flyers are a lot less capable of combat while flying than D&D fliers with a bow - D&D flight mechanics being astonishingly forgiving in most editions, especially spell-powered flight.

As for teleportation, personally I think long-range teleportation should probably never come on line - for players and NPCs both, at least not as an ability with daily availability. Even in high-powered fantasy it's such a disruptive and setting-destroying capability once it becomes widespread. That's admittedly a personal opinion, but D&D absolutely makes the ability far too common (though many other authors and designers have given in to the temptation).

[FatR]

I largely agree with Mechalich. Easy access to flight should only become avaialable at the point where you leave most of basic fantasy conventions behind. Which should not be level 1, but rather level 6-7 out of 20. Frankly, even with the existing flight rules flying monsters are only remotely a big deal before that point because martical characters in DnD suffer from crippling overspecialization and picking up a bow destroys DPS of any who specialized in melee.

Tactical teleportation should become available perhaps a couple of levels later. And strategic long-distance teleportation should only become available when your adventurers outgrow boundaries of a single planet and routinely span multiple worlds and planes, so maybe at level 14-15. The ability to instantly redeploy small groups of elite asskickers across the world when the overwhelming majority of your fighting potential is concentrated in small groups of elite asskickers breaks settings and, more importantly, creates a sword of Damocles constantly hanging over PCs as soon as PCs step on the toes of someone important.

[OgreBattle]

Perseus

Hard to say as Perseus isn't part of a continuous adventuring party that slowly rises in power. Most mythological hero stories are more like one-shot campaigns than something that really translates to D&D.

flight

Grades of flight can help it come online earlier. Most of the time flight maneuverability rules get ignored though. But roughly...

crappy: It takes time for you to take off and once in the air you are not evasive and take a large penalty to attack and do stuff. You have a chance of falling out of the sky if you take damage. So if you use it in combat it's largely to escape.

Great: You move freely through the air like a Dragon Ball character.

teleportation

Short range teleportation was fun as an Eladrin ninja, though I never got into the "escape from chains" situation.

I like the idea of long range teleportation requiring rituals/artifacts/buildings for big teleportation circles that go to another set circle.

How does Shadowrun handle divination? I think it's all dependent on sending spirits or actually going there in astral form to look around? Could that work for D&D?

[erik]

Short range teleportation also shuts down a crapload of combat tactics. Cages, shackles, bars, grappling, suddenly the lv1 wizard with Abrupt Jaunt gets to laugh at all of that.

I'm not even sure that that can't be positive for the game insofar, as it actually encourages monsters to attack the non-squishy characters. It's a non-dumb solution to the problem that defense- and protection-focused characters kinda blow.

+1 (at least +1 to that it is positive, doubt if it does anything to solve the problems of defense-focused characters)

I'd totally list that as a feature. And the "crapload" of combat tactics are like, 2 things. Grapples and blocking exits being countered by an X daily power? Boo-hoo. That is not disruptive. And who is fucking grappling a level 1 wizard when you can knock them out with a single smack from a rubber dildo?

Imprisonment is really boring to roleplay when you signed up to be a murder hobo and I approve of handing adventurers tools to get out even at level 1.

Using your valuable limited daily knot cutting/combat winning powers on a single short-range teleportation is totes within the appropriate power scope. So yeah, short range teleport level 1 for sure.

Flight? Probably break it up into utility flight vs. combat flight. You can charter a pegasus or luck dragon or something at low levels but to become effective at combat from a flying mount should take more skill and resources than a level 1 character has available, also flying mounts don't easily fit in many dungeons. Delaying combat flight to level 5 seems fair, and it is still a significant resource sink until level 8+ at which point, yeah, everyone should be flight capable, or know that if they aren't it was their choice not to be.

That's pretty much how D&D works out, so I think they nailed it on appropriate levels for flight and short range teleportation.

I do think longer range teleportation needs more restraint. Preferably teleport circles that must be set up for super long ranges. None of this Scry and SWAT shit.

[zugschef]

+1 (at least +1 to that it is positive, doubt if it does anything to solve the problems of defense-focused characters)

I meant only the "tank"-part of the problem.

[schpeelah]

It's worth noting that there's no inherent reason why flying monsters need to come online at level one. Many fantasy worlds don't have a large number of flying monsters, and many of those flyers are a lot less capable of combat while flying than D&D fliers with a bow - D&D flight mechanics being astonishingly forgiving in most editions, especially spell-powered flight.

The first reason is called real life birds. The second reason is tons of mythological flying monsters when mythological heroes are often fairly low level, i.e. little more than a dude with a sword and bow.

[K]

It's worth noting that there's no inherent reason why flying monsters need to come online at level one. Many fantasy worlds don't have a large number of flying monsters, and many of those flyers are a lot less capable of combat while flying than D&D fliers with a bow - D&D flight mechanics being astonishingly forgiving in most editions, especially spell-powered flight.

The first reason is called real life birds. The second reason is tons of mythological flying monsters when mythological heroes are often fairly low level, i.e. little more than a dude with a sword and bow.

There are a lot of different kind of flight. Bird flight is pretty shitty considering even a single hit from anything will knock a bird out of the sky, while monster flight that assumes you can be run through with a longspear and have a guy hanging from that longspear and still have flight is a completely different thing.

You can give out bird flight at 1st level since it's a simple travel and escape power, but monster combat flight should be pushed back pretty dramatically.

[name_here]

Your zero point can go wherever you want when designing the game. If your game is meant to have melee-focused heroes without flight as major combatants at a certain level then flying monsters who are as tough as ground-bound monsters should not be online at that level. If all your melee PCs get flight as a signing bonus then you want monster flight from level one. You can also have fliers at lower levels if they're easily disposed of with secondary archery or must fly into sword range to be combat-effective.

[zugschef]

You can give out bird flight at 1st level since it's a simple travel and escape power, but monster combat flight should be pushed back pretty dramatically.

Right. But if you do hand it out at first level at all, shouldn't every character have access to it in one way or another? Otherwise it's another shortbus hobo edition.

[zugschef]

You can give out bird flight at 1st level since it's a simple travel and escape power, but monster combat flight should be pushed back pretty dramatically.

Right. But if you do hand it out at first level at all, shouldn't every character have access to it in one way or another? Otherwise it's another shortbus hobo edition.

[K]

You can give out bird flight at 1st level since it's a simple travel and escape power, but monster combat flight should be pushed back pretty dramatically.

Right. But if you do hand it out at first level at all, shouldn't every character have access to it in one way or another? Otherwise it's another shortbus hobo edition.

It depends. If you are giving out other comparable escape and travel powers, then bird flight can just be one type of character's special thing. If escape and travel powers are nearly meaningless and mostly a flavor power in the system, then it's OK for it to be someone's special thing.

What is clear is that you can't do DnD balance. Some characters having a wild variety of utility and combat powers and other characters having few is not a sustainable design.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

M&M3 isn't all that well suited for 1st level shenanigans, but for shits and grins here's a PL1 flying teleporter.
It can fly at 16mph, has a 60' personal teleport, and with 2 move actions can make a 15' portal that can teleport a group 2 miles. It also meets all its caps, and plinks for damage at extended range.
At PL2 I'd add trick arrows, and at ~PL4 make the movement abilities innate while switching the build to a Lila Cheney style intergalactic teleporter with perception based attacks.

Abilities: all 0 Skills: none
Advantages: Equipment 1, Ranged Attack 1
Powers: Senses 1 (Extended Vision) (1)
"Belt of Magical Movement" (Flaw: Removable) (8)
Teleport 1 (Extra: Accurate, Change Velocity, Easy, Extended, Portal +1 size) (9)
AE: Flight 3 (Extra: Continuous, Subtle 2) (1)
Equipment: "Lightweight Bow" Ranged Damage 1 (Extra: Penetrating 1, Increased Range 1)(4)
"Leather Armor" Protection 1 (1)
Offense: Bow +1 (+1 Damage, DC 16), Unarmed +0 (+0 Damage, DC 15)
Initiative +0
Defenses: Dodge +1, Parry +1, Toughness+1, Fortitude+1, Will+1
Total: Abilities: 0 / Skills: 0 / Advantages: 2 / Powers: 9 / Defenses: 4 (15)

[Grek]

Your build is bad and you should feel bad. You invested in flight so you ought to be rocking the free slam attack that comes with it.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

A damage effect limited by PL to +0/+3, that not only requires a character get in melee range but also provokes a DC 16 Toughness check (immunity to one's own slam damage being inefficient to purchase at PL1), makes far less sense than a ranged damage effect from outside of the range of any same PL effects which haven't been extended at least twice.

[PhoneLobster]

Where is the point at which flight and teleportation should become available, respectively?

Early. Very very early.

You can quibble about the exact full functionality but this "waaah it makes GMing harder!" bullshit has to fucking stop. Grow some balls and let the game have nice things already.

Because winged creatures are a fantasy staple, and players are going to want to BE a winged humanoid from level 1. And fuck it, however you manage to shoe horn that in just god damn do it because it's a high priority and it is a MUCH higher priority than making sure dumb as fuck attack dogs ALWAYS get to be relevant vs all targets.

Similarly levitation and teleportation are some of the relatively few straightforward interesting concepts for "magic dudes" to run around using that isn't just another flavor of shooting lightning at things. I know people want to take nice things away from the wizard until they as boring as fighters but you know what, no, just fucking stop it already, do it however you like but that "10 ft teleport" or whatever comes online early for appropriate character concepts or your game is dreary low magic drudgery no one actually wants to play.

The simple fact is your game needs cool abilities in it they need to be in there in some shape or form from the beginning and yes cool abilities are hard to get right but you do NOT just get to throw your hands in the air and just remove them because they might make the dumb non-magical melee fighter feel bad.

If you can't make flight and teleport work in some way from level one, stop designing RPG rules.

[Grek]

A damage effect limited by PL to +0/+3, that not only requires a character get in melee range but also provokes a DC 16 Toughness check (immunity to one's own slam damage being inefficient to purchase at PL1), makes far less sense than a ranged damage effect from outside of the range of any same PL effects which haven't been extended at least twice.

Powers: [8 points]
Immunity to Own Slam Damage
Subtle Gliding Flight 4
-AE: Change Velocity Teleport 2

Defenses [5 points]
+1 to each

Advantages: [2 points]
Move-by-Action
Takedown

Here we have a character who flies twice as fast and teleports twice as far as Nebuchadnezzar's while still meeting PL maximums for attacks (note the slam is +0/2 due to moving ~half max move distance before attacking) and defenses. The slam attack starts at 120 feet away and allows the attacker to move a further 120 feet (AKA 120% of Long range for this PL) after punching her enemy in the face. And all without squeezing any extra points out of removable devices and equipment.

[FatR]

Because winged creatures are a fantasy staple,

No, they aren't. Fantasy characters with reliable, not depending on plot tickets, access to flight are a small minority. Of those the majority use artifacts or flying mounts. Of those who fly on their own power the majority do so by shapeshifting into birds with sharply limited combat capability. Of those who use other means the majority live in DnD derivatives and just cast Fly.

and players are going to want to BE a winged humanoid from level 1.

I'd bet that players who are going to want to fire fantasy tactical nukes from level 1 would be more common.

And fuck it, however you manage to shoe horn that in just god damn do it because it's a high priority

Catfolk and probably small fey people who don't suck are high priority. Winged humanoids are not.

[name_here]

I'm really dubious of any plan where some characters can fly and other characters are groundbound unless they have some other inherent solution to "there is a bottomless chasm 100 feet across between you and your destination". Because that's either trivial or borderline insurmountable, and there's plenty of stories to be told where either of those are true but things kind of come apart if both are true for some of the party members but not others.

Monster flight can coexist with groundbound PCs so long as the monsters can't just strafe them with impunity.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Gliding

This sort of quibbling being outside the thread's purview, it gets spoilered.

Relying on gliding to make slam attacks versus grounded opponents is problematic, insofar as the only ways for the above build to gain altitude are GM fiat and Teleport. If one were to not switch instead to Winged Flight one could alternate maximum distance slams/120' move action teleports with Move-by-Action slams. The attack routine in that case would be -2/+3 (the penalty for charge attacks having been previously disregarded), with a -2/+2 the following round. In the second round much of the character's motion would be skimming the ground or potential environmental hazards.

If the bow the floating archer uses drops the Penetrating 1 to up Extended Range to 2, the archer stays in medium range within 200', with an attack of -1/+1, which can be power attacked to -2/+2. It seems like slam attacking fliers at PL1 take on added risk and sacrificed move actions to add an occasional +1 to a damage check.

It's also worth noting that the the slam attack flier adds nothing in the way of team utility with their access to teleport. In that the only real uses of teleport are to escape snares/grapples, allow teleport-themed attacks, and move the team around, it's a glaring omission. Admittedly extending an extended portal beyond distance rank 9 gets expensive quickly, even as a removable Device.