OSSR: Breedbook Mokole

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Prak
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Post by Prak »

The corax may be newish, but not too much so. I know that the Kitsune were the last breed made, and used up the last of Gaia's juice. The Insect Races weren't gaian, they were made by Queen Ananasa (or possibly the Weaver), and were later exterminated by the Ananasi, also her creation. The spider was made in joint effort by Ananasa and the Wyrm, and then later Ananasa made werespiders.

The Samsa and other Mockery Breeds (Yeren, Kerasi, Anurana, War Wolves) are artificial changing breeds made by Pentex to try to copy weres and not have to rely on BSDs so much.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
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You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Smirnoffico »

The whole Ananasi story puts a big question mark on Gaia dominance. The breedbook outright says that Gaia is just a wyld incarna, which is obviously propaganda, but there should be some credit to it. Either all werecreatures are gaian creations or if each triad head can create it's own were-s, Gaia is not sole head of the cosmos. We know of spiders, mockery breeds and I'm pretty sure Wyld also created something, but no one give it a form or description
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Post by hyzmarca »

Smirnoffico wrote:Yeah, I think Samsa are modernish creation.
The Samsa were specifically created by Neuro-Dynamic Laboratories. Better shapeshifters through Science!.
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Post by Prak »

The Rokea consider themselves to have been made by Wyld (which makes no sense, but whatever...), and I thought the Ratkin were made by the Wyld, but I guess they're just falling to it.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Smirnoffico »

I should really read Rokeф breedbook. Don't they follow an entirely different cosmogony?
And yeah, I think ratkin are 'tainted', much like Black Furies
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Post by Smirnoffico »

Prak wrote:The corax may be newish, but not too much so.
I just read the Mokole book and they outright state that Corax and Nagah are 'subspicies' of Mokole - they evolved from them
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Post by Mechalich »

Smirnoffico wrote:I should really read Rokeф breedbook. Don't they follow an entirely different cosmogony?
They do. The Rokea claim to be 'Kunspawn' meaning they were made by Kun, the undersea equivalent of the Wyld that is not actually the Wyld itself but an entirely different spirit-thing.

The Rokea also think that the Sun is a hole in the Sky (which they call Oversea) called the Wound that was put there when Qyrl - the undersea non-equivalent of the Wyrm - literally tore a gash into it. So...um...yeah...
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Post by Prak »

Smirnoffico wrote:
Prak wrote:The corax may be newish, but not too much so.
I just read the Mokole book and they outright state that Corax and Nagah are 'subspicies' of Mokole - they evolved from them
Interesting. I read a chapter at a time when I do reviews, so I hadn't gotten there yet.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Ancient History »

hyzmarca wrote:
Smirnoffico wrote:Yeah, I think Samsa are modernish creation.
The Samsa were specifically created by Neuro-Dynamic Laboratories. Better shapeshifters through Science!.
I have a soft-spot for the Samsa, because of all the Mocking Breeds they're the closest to playable - the scrappy underdogs who could, if they get their act together, go kick the Black Spiral Dancers out of their hive in Chernobyl or something and reclaim it as a cairn dedicated to Cockroach or something.

...but that way lies madness. That's where the World of Darkness gets you, really, in the little fantasies and possibilities. Nobody is ever going to play a Samsa campaign, much less make it a part of the official fiction. Hell, the WoD is basically made out of mindcaulk and fanwank, shaped into a fragile but seemingly-solid structure like a wasp's nest. They should have gone the full Alderac and just had official events at conventions where player participation determined the course of the metaplot.
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Post by Prak »

Smirnoffico wrote:I should really read Rokeф breedbook. Don't they follow an entirely different cosmogony?
And yeah, I think ratkin are 'tainted', much like Black Furies
The rokea call the Gaia and the triat by different names, and seem to have slightly different ideas of them. It's not entirely clear whether this is "we have different stories" or "we have different spirits," at least not without reading the book...

And the Furies aren't tainted, you're thinking of the Black Spiral Dancers. It's more like the Ratkin are what the Red Talons will eventually become.

Edit: The Yeren seemed fairly playable too, AH.
Last edited by Prak on Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Smirnoffico »

Prak wrote:And the Furies aren't tainted, you're thinking of the Black Spiral Dancers. It's more like the Ratkin are what the Red Talons will eventually become.
BSD are wyrm-tainted, Furies are slowly falling to wyld. Even one of the apocalypse stories have them struck with changing plague
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Post by Prak »

That's... interesting. The Furies don't seem Wyldish at all. Are you possibly thinking the Red Talons, the tribe that eschews human society, only breeding with wolves, and not even trusting manufactured weapons all that much?
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Ancient History »

Prak wrote:The Yeren seemed fairly playable too, AH.
The Yeren are set up to be "bad guys" in the W:tA setting by default, like the Black Spiral Dancers - wyrm-tainted, only able to get gifts from Bane spirits, etc. The Samsa are at least able to get gifts from Cockroach, which at least gives them an "in" to being accepted as a proper breed.

...but I like underdog character concepts. I rolled with a Hare deck, remember.

Back to the Rokea: at what point do they talk about the gnosis-whales?
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Post by Smirnoffico »

Nope, I'm positive on Furies ) No way I'm confusing an all-lupus tribe with all-female tribe :)
Maybe that's just my perception of the tribe, but the whole mythology Furies are based on just screams primordial, and I'm sure there was something in their tribe book (awful as it is).

Also, I'm reading through Rokea, don't they consider all breeds to be created by sea-wyld? The book specifically mentions that Rokea and Mokole were created by Kun. Mokole themselves say they were created by Gaia though.
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Post by Prak »

Hmm... I never much read the tribe books, and the only black fury I ever played was a metis and I think I chose it for either ethnicity or gift reasons.

The more I know about Mokole and Rokea the more I think it's best to just go full "they have no clue, just good stories" with the fera.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Smirnoffico »

Yup, i'm positive there was no master plan. Insect wars are mentioned only in breed book Ananasi and never again. Half of the authors probably never knew it happened. Breed book Mokole states that garou are the youngest breed and came after the ice age while most tribe books specifically state that garou were before humanity and so on.

So much wasted potential (which is recurring theme with WoD). We could have had generational conflict instead of 'and now we are just going to constantly fuck up for no reason' called Wars of Rage. We could have meaningful gaian spirits...
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Post by Mechalich »

Ancient History wrote:Back to the Rokea: at what point do they talk about the gnosis-whales?
The Rokea book talks about the Rorqual - the gnosis-whales, at several points, with one of the major NPCs, Bleeds-Night, having concluded his long swim (the process by which Rokea mature into sapience) by meeting a Rorqual. It is not clear how abundant Rorqual actually are, what proportion of whale populations they represent, or even which cetacean species are eligible for the status and which are not.

Its also amusing in the ironically stupid sort of way that predatory cetaceans - primarily killer whales - are among the primary predators of sharks, mostly as juveniles, and yet the rokea are supposed to revere them.

Rorqual are also mentioned, at several points, in Blood-Dimmed Tides, because they not only provide gnosis for Rokea, they act as a source of whatever power the merfolk-fey use to do their thing too.

And yet no one bothered to write up a 'save the whales' campaign concept in either book.
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Post by hyzmarca »

Ancient History wrote:
Prak wrote:The Yeren seemed fairly playable too, AH.
The Yeren are set up to be "bad guys" in the W:tA setting by default, like the Black Spiral Dancers - wyrm-tainted, only able to get gifts from Bane spirits, etc.
On the other hand, the Yeren are literally Gorden Gekko apemen. That's a concept that has legs. You could totally play a Wolf Apes of Wall Street campaign where the PCs are all wereapes who outsource manufacturing jobs to China by day and fight ecoterrorist werewolves by night. Get a nice "greed is good" theme going there, about how they're the ones who keep the economy running even if they're prone to excess sometimes.

"Wyrm tainted. You say that like it means something. You know what the Wyrm is? It's civilization. It's humanity. It's X-Boxes and hot and cold running water. It's putting your grandmother in a nursing home instead of ripping her throat out and eating her because she was becoming a burden. Everything that Mankind has ever done. Just look at everything we've ever accomplished. Just look at the drives that compelled us to do all of this. The passion. The desire. The lust and the greed and the terror and the hate. Even the love. That's not the Weaver. And it's certainly not the Wyld. That's the Wyrm. All of it. It's touched everything we've made. It drive us to ever greater heights and glories. And without that fire, where would we be? We'd still be sleeping in the dirt, covered in our own shit. That's where they all want us, the wolves, the spirits, and all those other motherfuckers. They want to tear down civilization and leave us huddled in a dark cave without so much as a fire for warmth. I say fuck them. They're bitter, jealous losers. They're stronger than us, faster, much harder to kill. They slaughtered us with impunity back in the day. And guess what, we still fucking won. They lost, we won, because we have that fire and they don't. We weak, pathetic apes are simply better than them. So I'm just going to drink this martini. Then I'm going downstairs and get into my Bugatti Veyron and I am going to call a dozen thousand dollar an hour escorts and have them all spend the night in my penthouse. I'm going to video our sexcapades and then I'm going to visit this werewolf that I know. And when i show him the video I'll be sure to point out that the nastiest, kinkiest one is his sister. And then I'm going to rip his fucking spine and and piss up his nose. Because that's what it means to be a fucking human being."
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Post by Mechalich »

hyzmarca wrote:On the other hand, the Yeren are literally Gorden Gekko apemen. That's a concept that has legs. You could totally play a Wolf Apes of Wall Street campaign where the PCs are all wereapes who outsource manufacturing jobs to China by day and fight ecoterrorist werewolves by night. Get a nice "greed is good" theme going there, about how they're the ones who keep the economy running even if they're prone to excess sometimes.

"Wyrm tainted. You say that like it means something. You know what the Wyrm is? It's civilization. It's humanity. It's X-Boxes and hot and cold running water. It's putting your grandmother in a nursing home instead of ripping her throat out and eating her because she was becoming a burden. Everything that Mankind has ever done. Just look at everything we've ever accomplished. Just look at the drives that compelled us to do all of this. The passion. The desire. The lust and the greed and the terror and the hate. Even the love. That's not the Weaver. And it's certainly not the Wyld. That's the Wyrm. All of it. It's touched everything we've made. It drive us to ever greater heights and glories. And without that fire, where would we be? We'd still be sleeping in the dirt, covered in our own shit. That's where they all want us, the wolves, the spirits, and all those other motherfuckers. They want to tear down civilization and leave us huddled in a dark cave without so much as a fire for warmth. I say fuck them. They're bitter, jealous losers. They're stronger than us, faster, much harder to kill. They slaughtered us with impunity back in the day. And guess what, we still fucking won. They lost, we won, because we have that fire and they don't. We weak, pathetic apes are simply better than them. So I'm just going to drink this martini. Then I'm going downstairs and get into my Bugatti Veyron and I am going to call a dozen thousand dollar an hour escorts and have them all spend the night in my penthouse. I'm going to video out sexcapades and then I'm going to visit this werewolf that I know. And when i show him the video I'll be sure to point out that the nastiest, kinkiest one is his sister. And then I'm going to rip his fucking spine and and piss up his nose. Because that's what it means to be a fucking human being."
You can also do this exact campaign concept by playing as members of the Syndicate - the only difference is that instead of hulking out and ripping people in half yourself, you hire Iterator cyborgs to do it on your behalf (and if your GM is nice, they indulge you by allowing you to role for the cyborgs as go all Terminator on your enemies).
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Post by hyzmarca »

Mechalich wrote:
hyzmarca wrote:On the other hand, the Yeren are literally Gorden Gekko apemen. That's a concept that has legs. You could totally play a Wolf Apes of Wall Street campaign where the PCs are all wereapes who outsource manufacturing jobs to China by day and fight ecoterrorist werewolves by night. Get a nice "greed is good" theme going there, about how they're the ones who keep the economy running even if they're prone to excess sometimes.

"Wyrm tainted. You say that like it means something. You know what the Wyrm is? It's civilization. It's humanity. It's X-Boxes and hot and cold running water. It's putting your grandmother in a nursing home instead of ripping her throat out and eating her because she was becoming a burden. Everything that Mankind has ever done. Just look at everything we've ever accomplished. Just look at the drives that compelled us to do all of this. The passion. The desire. The lust and the greed and the terror and the hate. Even the love. That's not the Weaver. And it's certainly not the Wyld. That's the Wyrm. All of it. It's touched everything we've made. It drive us to ever greater heights and glories. And without that fire, where would we be? We'd still be sleeping in the dirt, covered in our own shit. That's where they all want us, the wolves, the spirits, and all those other motherfuckers. They want to tear down civilization and leave us huddled in a dark cave without so much as a fire for warmth. I say fuck them. They're bitter, jealous losers. They're stronger than us, faster, much harder to kill. They slaughtered us with impunity back in the day. And guess what, we still fucking won. They lost, we won, because we have that fire and they don't. We weak, pathetic apes are simply better than them. So I'm just going to drink this martini. Then I'm going downstairs and get into my Bugatti Veyron and I am going to call a dozen thousand dollar an hour escorts and have them all spend the night in my penthouse. I'm going to video out sexcapades and then I'm going to visit this werewolf that I know. And when i show him the video I'll be sure to point out that the nastiest, kinkiest one is his sister. And then I'm going to rip his fucking spine and and piss up his nose. Because that's what it means to be a fucking human being."
You can also do this exact campaign concept by playing as members of the Syndicate - the only difference is that instead of hulking out and ripping people in half yourself, you hire Iterator cyborgs to do it on your behalf (and if your GM is nice, they indulge you by allowing you to role for the cyborgs as go all Terminator on your enemies).
Eh. It's a bit different. Pentex Execs are Captain Planet villains. Syndicate mages are X-Files villains. The paradigms there really aren't the same. One is about personal greed and excess consumption. The other is about a global system of control used to manipulate the masses. Really, the Syndicate game lends itself better to using Metal Gear Solid 2 as inspiration.

And, really, the Syndicate is going to be a lot more clean cut, prim and proper. Think the FBI under J Edgar Hoover. If you want a game about excess and greed and snorting blow off a $1000-an-hour hooker's thigh, Pentex is the way to go.
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Post by Prak »

Except that entire tirade is much more about the Weaver than the Wyrm, hyz.

Here's the triat breakdown- The Wyld creates shit, and it has a tendency to chaotically morph form quickly and without warning. This is no basis for reality, so the Weaver comes along and wraps a web around the things the Wyld creates so that it fucking stays in one form. And the Wyrm goes around like Discworld Death cutting things down when its their time so that there's room for more stuff.

The Weaver is really fucking pissed that she has to play go between for the personification of chaotic genesis and the personification of death and decay. So she tried to make her job a bit easier by wrapping her web around the Wyld, get them to stay still for a while. The Wyld just changed and slipped through her bonds, though. So the Weaver turns around to the guy who keeps breaking her shit, and tries to trap him so he... can't do that anymore. And it works. Except that the Wyrm struggles and slices himself up in her web and goes a bit insane, and keeps struggling.

The Wyrm isn't hunger or greed or progress. The Wyrm is death and destruction and decay. He is entropy.

The Weaver is progress, in fact, that's two of the gifts she gave humanity- Science and Technology. And in her desire to hold onto what she's stabilized, we see her greed.

The Wyrm gets blamed for all of humanity's bad urges, but he's just a mad spirit whose thrashings further death and decay in the world. You want to blame someone for our greed, it's the Weaver.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by hyzmarca »

Prak wrote:Except that entire tirade is much more about the Weaver than the Wyrm, hyz.

Here's the triat breakdown- The Wyld creates shit, and it has a tendency to chaotically morph form quickly and without warning. This is no basis for reality, so the Weaver comes along and wraps a web around the things the Wyld creates so that it fucking stays in one form. And the Wyrm goes around like Discworld Death cutting things down when its their time so that there's room for more stuff.

The Weaver is really fucking pissed that she has to play go between for the personification of chaotic genesis and the personification of death and decay. So she tried to make her job a bit easier by wrapping her web around the Wyld, get them to stay still for a while. The Wyld just changed and slipped through her bonds, though. So the Weaver turns around to the guy who keeps breaking her shit, and tries to trap him so he... can't do that anymore. And it works. Except that the Wyrm struggles and slices himself up in her web and goes a bit insane, and keeps struggling.

The Wyrm isn't hunger or greed or progress. The Wyrm is death and destruction and decay. He is entropy.

The Weaver is progress, in fact, that's two of the gifts she gave humanity- Science and Technology. And in her desire to hold onto what she's stabilized, we see her greed.

The Wyrm gets blamed for all of humanity's bad urges, but he's just a mad spirit whose thrashings further death and decay in the world. You want to blame someone for our greed, it's the Weaver.
Human emotions are far too comlpex to be attributed to any one thing. Especially things as simplistic as the Triat. And for that matter, the Triat are too complex to be described as only one thing. Even the Wyrm has the Eater-of-Souls, who is, in fact, heavily into greed, gluttony, and excess.

And there is the fact that the Yeren are explicitly greedy ape men, who can only endure the conversion if they are sufficiently greedy.


More importantly, there's a substantial difference in philosophy here. The rant isn't about progress as stasis. Progress is, in fact, the exact opposite of stasis. Nor is it talking about civilization as stasis, but as the murder of nature in all it's forms, particularly the destruction of the State of Nature, the brutish war of all against all. It's a conception of civilization that is inherently about domination and enslavement, a different type of war of all against all more elegant, but not less cruel, in which money is both the tool and the goal. It's a vapid, materialist, and self-destructive sort of greed that makes you think expensive shit is the most important thing. It's burning down a rain-forest to build and amusement park. It's tearing down centuries old historical buildings to construct cheaply-made condos that won't last two decades.

At the end of the day, progress is entropy. We burn fossil fuels and we can't ever get those back. We're just accelerating the heat death of the universe, however imperceptibly, with our technology.
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Post by Prak »

Look, I didn't say that White Wolf was consistent or well written...
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Prak wrote:Look, I didn't say that White Wolf was consistent or well written...
No one ever has. At least not here.

Interesting to hear that at least there's influence from Africa in the art & design for this book. The valley between authentic geography, and cultural colonialism, is hard to cross.
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Post by Omegonthesane »

hyzmarca wrote:Human emotions are far too comlpex to be attributed to any one thing. Especially things as simplistic as the Triat. And for that matter, the Triat are too complex to be described as only one thing. Even the Wyrm has the Eater-of-Souls, who is, in fact, heavily into greed, gluttony, and excess.
Worth interjecting that the Triat Wyrm is meant to be the Wyrm's attempt to simulate and model the full Triat of which it is meant to be a head, and in that schema Eater-of-Souls maps roughly to the Weaver.

Of course, whoever decided on that cosmology then thought it was a great idea for Pentex to explicitly be a Defiler Wyrm project when that's the bit that maps to the Wyrm's original role.
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