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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

maglag wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
Shrapnel wrote:
You're not making Trump better, you're just making anime worse.


Please just don't talk to someone who straightfacedly makes arguments as godawful stupid as maglags.


Then I'm pretty sure your superior intellect would have no problem in showing me the light.

Since however you fail to present a single shred of proper evidence as usual, I'm afraid you're the one in the wrong here.


How about if I just use your exact same arguments, and then you can realize how stupid they are.

Conclusion: 100% of Anime viewers voted for Clinton.
Premise1: The number of anime viewers is less than the number of Clinton voters.
Premise2: My Magic Mind Reading Powers tell me that they all voted for Clinton without any evidence.
Therefore: Conclusion: 100% of Anime Viewers voted for Clinton.

Alternative argument: Conclusion: 100% of Anime Viewers voted for Clinton.
Premise1: One person who probably watches anime commissioned an artist to draw Clinton in anime style.
Premise2: Since this one person is of course, the sum total of all human beings on earth, this proves that:
Therefore: Conclusion: 100% of Anime Viewers voted for Clinton.
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MGuy
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maglag, are you bring serious right now? I sincerely can't tell if you are saying what you actually believe or if you're trying to become a parody version of the idiot Kaelik is saying you are.
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Leress
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Terra Formars started in 2011, maglag, stop being a dumb fuck.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Leress wrote:
Terra Formars started in 2011, maglag, stop being a dumb fuck.


Terra Formars is so popular and well regarded that I either never heard of it or completely forgot it existed as soon as I did. But from what I can see, it came out in 2014. I'm sure it's a much better representative of the politics of anime watchers of 2014 than Psycho-Pass, Kill-la-Kill, Shirobako, Free, Fish Kids Drama, Fate/Stay Night, No Game No Life, Your Lie in April, the 3 Sports Anime that started that year, whatever monogatari came out that year, and the then current seasons of Naruto/Bleach/One Piece/FairyTail. Or you know, anime anyone actually watched.

But hey, it's in the top 3000 of anime! So you know it's well loved.

Hell for fucks sake, there was a season of goddam Jo-Jo that year probably, and unlike Terraformers, which no one fucking watched, at least one trump supporter watched Jo-Jo.
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Leress
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:


Hell for fucks sake, there was a season of goddam Jo-Jo that year probably, and unlike Terraformers, which no one fucking watched, at least one trump supporter watched Jo-Jo.



It was Stardust Crusaders, one of the most popular arcs of JoJo.

Terra formars manga started in 2011 in Shonen Jump and the anime started in 2014.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Leress wrote:
Terra formars manga started in 2011 in Shonen Jump and the anime started in 2014.


Since we are talking about anime, that seems to the relevant date.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:
But from what I can see, it came out in 2014. I'm sure it's a much better representative of the politics of anime watchers of 2014 than Psycho-Pass, Kill-la-Kill, Shirobako, Free, Fish Kids Drama, Fate/Stay Night, No Game No Life, Your Lie in April, the 3 Sports Anime that started that year, whatever monogatari came out that year, and the then current seasons of Naruto/Bleach/One Piece/FairyTail. Or you know, anime anyone actually watched.


If my political opinions are going to be judged by the anime I watch, I could be judged by worse animes than Kill La Kill...
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Prak wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
But from what I can see, it came out in 2014. I'm sure it's a much better representative of the politics of anime watchers of 2014 than Psycho-Pass, Kill-la-Kill, Shirobako, Free, Fish Kids Drama, Fate/Stay Night, No Game No Life, Your Lie in April, the 3 Sports Anime that started that year, whatever monogatari came out that year, and the then current seasons of Naruto/Bleach/One Piece/FairyTail. Or you know, anime anyone actually watched.


If my political opinions are going to be judged by the anime I watch, I could be judged by worse animes than Kill La Kill...


I don't actually mean that we can divine that anyone who likes Psycho-Pass is secretly an anti-authoritarian or that people who like No Game No Life are libertarians or whatever. I just mean, that those are all animes that came out in 2014 and, unlike terraformers, were actually popular, so if we were going to divine politics through anime, we should at least use anime people actually watched.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, no, I understood that. I was just amused by the idea of someone trying to divine my politics via the anime I watch.
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You know, when I said Crunchyroll was the next Stormfront, that was supposed to be a joke. You know, funny commentary on the media's obsession with 4chan's /pol/, a single board on a website which gets an order of magnitude less traffic than reddit, which in turns get an order of magnitude less traffic than Facebook; an insightful jab at the fact that what the media says about 4chan will reach hundreds (thousands? more?) times as many people as what 4chan actually says.
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virgil
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

"Nobody in the world, nobody in history, has ever gotten their freedom by appealing to the moral sense of the people who were oppressing them."
-Assata Shakur
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Occluded Sun
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Mohandas Gandhi?
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

He backed up asking nicely with boycotts and non-cooperation and generally making a nuisance of himself, though.

You could also argue that it's no coincidence that WW2 reduced British imperial power and ambition.
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maglag
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Women eventually got voting/working/divorce rights and stuff without any violent armed revolt.

So that's a pretty big percentage of human population that did gain their freedom by appealing to the moral sense of the people who were oppressing them.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There's a difference between getting rights without violence, and getting rights by appealing to moral sense.

Saying that you can accomplish something non violently is not saying you can accomplish it because of the moral sense of the oppressor.
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:
Prak wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
But from what I can see, it came out in 2014. I'm sure it's a much better representative of the politics of anime watchers of 2014 than Psycho-Pass, Kill-la-Kill, Shirobako, Free, Fish Kids Drama, Fate/Stay Night, No Game No Life, Your Lie in April, the 3 Sports Anime that started that year, whatever monogatari came out that year, and the then current seasons of Naruto/Bleach/One Piece/FairyTail. Or you know, anime anyone actually watched.


If my political opinions are going to be judged by the anime I watch, I could be judged by worse animes than Kill La Kill...


I don't actually mean that we can divine that anyone who likes Psycho-Pass is secretly an anti-authoritarian or that people who like No Game No Life are libertarians or whatever. I just mean, that those are all animes that came out in 2014 and, unlike terraformers, were actually popular, so if we were going to divine politics through anime, we should at least use anime people actually watched.


How the hell could Psycho-Pass be anti-authoritarian?

The moral of Psycho-Pass is that you can create a perfect society by giving a bunch of sociopaths, many of whom are sierial killers, the authority to have anyone who they want similarly executed without trial. It's like, ultra-authoritarian. It just says that serial killers should be the authorities.


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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hyzmarca wrote:
How the hell could Psycho-Pass be anti-authoritarian?

The moral of Psycho-Pass is that you can create a perfect society by giving a bunch of sociopaths, many of whom are sierial killers, the authority to have anyone who they want similarly executed without trial. It's like, ultra-authoritarian. It just says that serial killers should be the authorities.


If you can't see that Psycho-Pass is Dystopian not Utopian, then I can't help you man.

It has a very specific message about why it's a Dystopia which you may disagree with (and I do), but it's super clear on that point.
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Historians are reluctant to attribute success to militancy (unless the militants are white dudes, in which case AMERICA FUCK YEAH), but basically any civil rights/independence movement you'd care to name has militant elements in the backdrop that probably factored into the oppressor's "should I continue my dickitude" calculus.

Indians seriously bombed allied supply convoys during World War 2. The Royal Indian Navy straight-up mutinied, and had to be suppressed by British forces. The people of India made it clear that foreign rule would end in a sea of blood, and a weakened war-weary Britain graciously bowed out before it came to that. We call that a success for nonviolent resistance, but the damage caused by India's "nonviolent" resistance includes dead British naval officers. This shit is more complicated than people give it credit for.

Women's suffrage is an interesting case. In the UK, the militant wing of feminism agreed to play nice once WW1 broke out. In the U.S., they kept right on being mean. Women in the U.S. would earn the right to vote eight years earlier than their UK counterparts. Of course, if you squint hard enough you can also spin things the other direction; militant suffragists didn't set fire to quite as many things in the U.S. as they did in the UK. But either way you spin it, both movements had members who were totally willing to burn your shit down, and ultimately the increased dependence upon women as part of the industrial backbone - what with all the dead men from WW1 - certainly made the people in charge that much more painfully aware of the threat of industrial sabotage from their own citizens.

The more I think about it, the more I have trouble thinking of a successful nonviolent civil rights/independence movement for which violence (whether it be civil war or a decentralized campaign of arson and bombings) wasn't perilously close on the horizon. The powers that be cave when the cost of "no" is too high.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

"The chair will remind you to refrain from engaging in personalities towards the president-elect."
"Duly noted. Donald Trump... is a bigot."

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Omegonthesane
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

DS - I've seen you go on about how India got its independence by if not straight up revolt than certainly by way the fuck more violence than I ever got taught about at school. Got any sources for that?

This isn't me doubting you, it's me wanting to learn more.
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deaddmwalking
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's important to bear in mind that violence itself becomes part of the narrative. While Gandhi stressed non-violent protests, the protesters were treated with violence. During the Civil Rights movement in the US, TV images of fire hoses and dogs being turned on peaceful protesters helped shape the narrative.

Trying to 'force' the protesters to stop pushing for their demands backfired spectacularly because it looked like unprovoked violence.

Non-violence doesn't mean 'waiting for people to give you what you deserve'. There are lots of ways to make 'demands', but without demands (and some form of threat if that demand isn't met) is required to achieve the demand. If Gandhi hadn't encouraged civic disobedience there would have been no independence. There may not have been a threat of physical violence - but there was a threat of non-cooperation which largely defeated the purpose of colonization.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Indeed most oppression isn't just for the joy of oppression. If you tell slaves "We will whip you if you don't pick the cotton" and 100% of them say "tough shit" and that doesn't change when you whip them, you don't keep trying to make them pick cotton, or at least you try a different system.

That's not a moral sense, that's just pointing out that if your goal in oppression isn't being achieved, then time to stop.

Though some kinds of oppression are literally just "don't let them vote or take my jobs" which it's hard to exert economic pressure against.
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Occluded Sun
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The American Civil Rights movement was in many ways similar to Gandhi's protests. The single largest difference was that Gandhi was forcing the British Empire into choosing between giving up India or resorting to tactics that violated its collective conscience (no easy task), while with King Jr., the point wasn't appealing to the conscience of Southerners but making them look bad in the eyes of the world.

MLK Jr. won, more than anything else, because people could turn on their television sets and see firehoses and dogs being set on people who were almost ridiculously non-aggressive and non-threatening. It wasn't guilt, but shame, that ended Jim Crow.

[edit to add] I once read an alternate-history novelette in which the UK had fallen to the Nazis and Gandhi tried to get them to free India. I thought the projection of how that would have ended quite plausible.


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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Omegonthesane wrote:
DS - I've seen you go on about how India got its independence by if not straight up revolt than certainly by way the fuck more violence than I ever got taught about at school. Got any sources for that?

This isn't me doubting you, it's me wanting to learn more.

I'm not sure that is how I would phrase it myself. Ultimately, India's independence was a peaceful transfer of power (at least as far as the British were concerned).

So, Britain unilaterally entered India into WW2, which was not at all surprising but still wildly controversial. Britain really, really wanted Indian leadership on board with the war effort, for obvious reasons. Indian leadership really, really wanted a promise of post-war independence, and for the most part also wanted to cooperate with the war effort. Britain sent a dude named Cripps to negotiate a deal over top of Viceroy Linlithgow's head, because Linlithgow was a reviled douchenozzle, but ultimately Cripps could not end up committing to promises of independence and instead made some wishy-washy promises of slightly more post-war autonomy and a vague outline of an eventual path to independence. The negotiations resolved fuck all, and their failure gave birth to the Quit India Movement, which was supposed to be a mass nonviolent protest demanding an immediate British withdrawal from India. Anyway, Gandhi gives a big speech to kick the whole thing off, and of course by the end of the day everyone of any importance whatsoever to the Indian Independence Movement was in prison.

Thus far, none of this shit is particularly controversial. I've name-dropped things, if you google those things they will have wikipedia pages, the pages are accurate enough, whatever, this is the boring shit no one argues about. The question that is difficult to answer is "how bad did things get when the British rounded up all the Indian leaders they could get their hands on and throw them in prison?" And the answer is I'm not sure anyone knows exactly question mark? Britain spent the war working very hard to make sure Indians did not realize how uppity other Indians were being, and there really weren't any Indian leaders who'd want to brag about how pockets of their supporters helped sabotage the allied war effort. They weren't exactly fans of the Axis powers before they ended up in prison and by the time they were out the allies had already won - bragging about how much harder you'd made that for them wasn't exactly politically expedient. It's somewhat similar to the situation with the French Resistance - a lot of the literature on the subject is still just the propaganda we told ourselves during and immediately after the war, and as such is of dubious usefulness.

The Battle of Christmas Island was a real battle with zero casualties, because by the time the Japanese showed up Indian forces had already mutinied and killed or captured their British officers. The Indian National Army was a real army. A former head of the Indian National Congress named Bose really did flee India to Germany, find his way to Japan, and put together a small army of Indian expatriates for the purposes of helping Japan fight Britain in Southeast Asia. The goal was to eventually make their way into India and inspire mass defections among the British-Indian army. After the war ended and Britain started putting officers of the INA on trial for treason, there definitely was a mass mutiny-slash-lite-revolt. It was mostly - but not completely - nonviolent.

This shit's all well-documented, and I don't think I need to "prove it" beyond "here's some things to read about if you want." Events like that certainly help paint the picture of a country teetering on the edge of something very, very serious. The part I am not super confident about - and the part you're probably most interested in - is the extent of the unrest in India following the British crackdown. For example, if you go to the Wikipedia article on the Quit India Movement, you'll see this gem: "For several weeks there was widespread rioting and the British lost control in some parts of the country.[citation needed] Only the strongest measures, including the use of machine guns and aerial bombing, restored their rule at the cost of thousands of Indian lives.[citation needed]" That shit is hilarious. That reads exactly like the sort of bullshit various flavors of nationalist add to wikipedia entries so they can jerk off to them, and the [citation needed] makes it even better. No way that shit's true, right? Well, here's some newspaper excerpts from 1942:

The Mercury, August 31st 1942 wrote:
UNREST IN INDIA

NEW DELHI, Sunday

...

Sixteen were injured when police at Benares drove off a crowd of 1000 which attempted to attack the railway and police stations.

One person was killed and three injured when police at Brindaban, near Lucknow, fired on a violent mob which attacked the police station.

Two persons were killed when police in Bihar Province fired on a mob which was wrecking the railway station. Four persons were killed and three injured when crowds in the neighbouring area attempted to cut the railway embankment. Troops fired on demonstrators at Paru police station. Bihar. Two persons were killed and three injured."

...

The West Australian, November 16th 1942 wrote:
UNREST IN INDIA

Rioting, Looting, Terrorism

Bombay, November 15th

...

A band of 1,000 rioters looted 3 rice mills at Tenkast in the Madras Province. Terrorist gangs are destroying property and creating alarm in the Surat district in Bombay Province. Police raided a building in the heart of Bombay and seized a congress radio which had been broadcasting regular programmes for weeks.

...


Yeah, I am inclined to say that shit got real bad in India following the crackdown. People were writing about the riots in India months later, and it's clear they were targeting British supply lines and clashing with law enforcement.

It is also worth remembering that Cripps was sent to negotiate Indians down from post-war independence, and yet by the time the war ended the British had basically already given up continuing to hold India. Whatever the fuck happened during the war when all of India's political leadership was in prison is the straw that broke the camel's back and ultimately convinced Britain that India could not be governed without its consent.
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Ancient History
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

#1: he also subscribes to the pedophile vampire theory.

#2: I'd like to hear this theory.

#1: Simply put: a child becomes a homosexual after being bitten by a pedophile. Oddly the question of whether there is some sort of monstrous antediluvian Ur-pedophile (probably worshiped as a god in Ancient Sumeria) never comes up.
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