Vampire the Dungeoning

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:30 am

FrankTrollman wrote:If normal human civilians are not basically like normal human civilians in our actual world, there's no advantage to calling your setting Earth and you'd be better off playing in the Forgotten Realms

This has me thinking about sticking Kindred in D&D. It's reasonably easy to write up some d20 mechanics for Masquerade-style Vampires, and spill some words on Kindred society that fits them into D&D-land and also cleans up the mess that is Vampire society in WoD. And it's not like the social-politicking stuff that is supposed to absorb VtM characters is going to be represented more poorly in d20...

Disciplines are a bit tricky, however, because there is no world in which "Spend 1 vitae for +4 Str" is equal to "Spend 1 Vitae to cast Produce Flame with a duration of 'the rest of combat'." Should there really be an attempt to make all disciplines the same sort of mechanic, or should Potence/Celerity/Fortitude just be treated as the minor powers they would be in D&D and other disciplines are made into something like spheres or whatever?

Also, should the clans mean more, mechanically, than just "here are your racial ability bonuses and the disciplines you can buy?"

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:08 am

Using GURPS: Dungeon Fantasy and GURPS: Vampire: The Masquarade: The Coloning would probably be easier, mechanically.

Mechalich · Post by **Mechalich** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:39 am

The problem with importing VtM-style Kindred into some other setting is that generally that setting has problems of its own. For example, Ravenloft preserves a lot of the horror themes that VtM is trying to evoke (at least theoretically), but I'm not sure you could do anything coherent with that setting.

You could write a d20 setting where Vampires represent the primary, or only, supernatural creature and the world is otherwise a no-magic medieval analogue. You can even use the real-world is you want so long as you re-work things like feeding requirements and alter the myth-fitting in certain ways (like totally axing the Kindred of the East). That's going to mean confronting a whole lot of balance issues though.

Ultimately, playing a VtM style Vampire means playing a mimic parasite/parasitoid that has developed a social culture out of a reactionary impulse to preserve the efficacy of the mimicry as the cultural evolution of the prey species made it less and less effective. VtM presents an evolutionary arms race between Kindred and Kine with the Vampires evolving ever better stealth adaptations and the humans evolving ever better detection methods.

However, the VtM reason for the existence of Vampire society - a survival mechanism - doesn't have to be the one utilized in a variant game, and actually its probably better if it doesn't, since it's a highly reactionary setup that doesn't mesh well with storylines where characters undertake proactive adventures.

magnuskn · Post by **magnuskn** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:30 pm

Reading a story where all the powerful and famous vampires from VtM are transported to the Forgotten Realms, think they can take over easily and promptly get curb-stomped by Elminster, Manshoon and the Sîmbul actually would be kinda funny.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:46 pm

The disciplines aren't balanced mechanically in their original context, but they aren't balanced conceptually like even a little bit. The dot structure inherently favors "grab bag" disciplines over "focused" ones. At the end of five dots of being "very strong," you're presumably very strong, and with the right set of mechanics behind you, you might even be level appropriately strong. But the first dot of Serpentis gives you a level appropriate hypnotic gaze and the second dot gives you a level appropriate attack snake popping out of your mouth (not even making that up). Now "is real strong" is a pretty cool power, that can do all kinds of lifting and breaking. But hypnotic vision is a pretty cool power too, and you get that with one dot. And that's even leaving aside Thaumaturgy and its offshoots, where every dot does something and also lets you take rituals, which are a big dumpster divable list of powers where a lot of them are every bit as useful as the powers that take a full dot (or even multiple dots for builder powers like Obfuscate or Potence).

With the disciplines being horrendously unbalanced, it's no surprise that the clans are also unbalanced. But they are way more unbalanced even than you'd think, given the different discipline sets. The Tremere have sweet disciplines and the Brujah have crap disciplines, but beyond that the Brujah have a crippling clan weakness and the Tremere don't even have a weakness. And the poor Samedi - they not only have a crippling weakness, but none of their disciplines actually let them eat. Above and beyond none of them being all that great in the first place, there is a conspicuous lack of any plausible means of night to night feeding for those dumb assholes. The Brujah have huge problems maintaining the Masquerade for more than a few weeks, but the Samedi have no obvious means to survive the next week and a half.

That being said, while the specific writeups of vampires in general and all the clans and disciplines in particular are deeply flawed, the one paragraph elevator pitch for each of the seven basic clans and a few of the expansion clans are solid gold. Without knowing anything about how the game works or what the powers do, people can listen to five sentences about each clan and be inspired to make a character. That's way better than the various vampire types that D&D ever came up with. So if you were remaking the vampire rules for Dungeons and Dragons, you could do a whole lot worse than starting from the standpoint "These are our Nosferatu expies, these are our Toreador expies..."

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[/img]
Vampires definitely want to be at an advantage during the night, but they still have to be able to act in sunlight. That's not negotiable.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:29 pm

When I started writing up the Masquerade Vampire, I was tweaking the ToN vampire template and literally entirely forgot about the "In World of Darkness, Vampires literally cannot wakeup during the day without rolling/spending character resources" until the last line of your post, Frank. I think there's a good seed in the concept of "vampires are creatures of the night and find it difficult to act during the day" but I think for a d20 VtM expy I'd take it down to "Roll a DC 12+age category* Will save or be dazed each hour." So it's an easy check for an increasingly minor annoyance, and even though it gets theoretically harder the more powerful you are, you're also gaining Will save bonus.

*I'm thinking of making generation act like dragon age categories, and have power of NPC vamps be based on their age rather than how close they are to The First Murderer.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:10 pm

Do you mean dazzled? Dazed is completely unable to take actions, even running away - an hour of it would be pretty debilitating. Dazzled has the reverse problem - it's so minor, it doesn't even really deserve to be a named condition. You could make them auto-dazzled in sunlight, like Orcs, and it would still be something everyone at the table forgot about after the second session.

Slowed would be a decent middle-ground - it doesn't make you auto-lose, but it is a pretty big detriment, and very much an incentive to focus on nighttime activity.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jan 25, 2016 7:26 pm

Er, yes, I meant dazzled. Slowed seems even more fitting.

K · Post by K » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:48 am

If you want to save yourself a few months of work, Monte Cook's World of Darkness is a complete-ish port of WoD into d20. It has a straight-up vampire progression with 20 levels and disciplines converted to d20 and everything.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:07 am

Yeah, but it's shitty.

Tannhäuser · Post by **Tannhäuser** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:07 am

K wrote:If you want to save yourself a few months of work, Monte Cook's World of Darkness is a complete-ish port of WoD into d20. It has a straight-up vampire progression with 20 levels and disciplines converted to d20 and everything.

Isn't it also a total trash fire? I only read through it once a while ago, but I remember being very underwhelmed.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:09 am

I think calling MCWoD a trash fire is an insult to fine upstanding trash fires everywhere. There's a review

hyzmarca · Post by **hyzmarca** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:31 am

A complete semi-functional ruleset is generally better than no ruleset.

souran · Post by **souran** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:33 am

The fact that d&d does not have a 1-20 character progression for vampires/ werewolves is fucking stupid. I realize the fundamental problem with vampires in d20 is that you need 4 versions, but god damn. 4th edition is the only edition that figured this shit out and that blows because nobody plays 4e.

Note: for d20 you need vampire/werewolf rules that let you build each of the following:

1) a template type structure that can be added to existing monsters to make them vampire like but mostly just tougher versions of the base monster (this shouldn't be available to players)

2) a vampire "race" that lets you play a level appropriate wizard/bard/fighter/ with vampire characteristics but no vampire "powers" basically a way to be a vamp without being a vamp being the most important thing.

3) a vampire class that has scaling vampire type powers and abilities. While 2 lets you be a "vampire wizard" this lets you be an "elven vampire" or a character where being a vampire is the characters most defining aspect.

4) a way to "acquire" vampirism in play that lets you gain vampire powers and spend something like feats to enhance them. This is basically the version of the vampire template that pcs would be willing to have.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:40 am

souran wrote: 3) a vampire class that has scaling vampire type powers and abilities. While 2 lets you be a "vampire wizard" this lets you be an "elven vampire" or a character where being a vampire is the characters most defining aspect.

I was working on a sort of Bloodborne-inspired werewolf class not long ago. Get bigger, turn into a bigass slavering monster, heal by eating meat.

I've also got note for a sort of vampiric temptress who gets more in the way of charm and dominate powers, and ages visibly as they go without blood.

Maybe we need to do a Spooky Scary Classes supplement

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:44 am

It is deeply weird that 3rd edition never did a spooky/scary classes book right.

There was Savage Species, which was deliberately sandbagged so as to make specialty creatures unplayable. There was Heroes of Horror, which had a pretty nice Necromancer, but was very short. There was It Breeds True, but Shifters and Warforged are such a shitty substitute for Werewolves and Prometheans that a lot of people didn't even realize that is what they were supposed to be.

The issue is that despite he thorough spanking they were receiving from White Wolf, the TSR corporate culture was very against players playing monsters or "dark" heroes. 2nd edition still pretended that you played with level limits and the Complete Book of Necromancers was a blue book.

In the 21st century, that particular stigma is pretty alien to RPG players. And as 3rd edition continued to hemorrhage old TSR writers, the amount of "monstrousness" and "darkness" that was allowed on the player side kept going up. By 2005, you were allowed to play a no-bullshit Necromancer (although they still wouldn't let you write the "Good" alignment on your character sheet while doing it). But we didn't get properly formatted Vampire classes until late in 4th edition, after people had already given up on that edition. True story: I have never read the Vampire class in that game, because it came out after I stopped taking 4th edition D&D seriously.

I think that if you were to make a real new edition of D&D, that you'd want playable necromancers and vampires and werewolves in the basic book. And if not all of them will fit in the basic book, that your Innistrad campaign setting, Heroes of Horror, or whatever you want to call the book that has those options in it should come out quickly.

-Username17

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:01 am

There's traction for it. Have a vampire base class and then PrCs to represent different gimmicks--the whole Chiltren off Zer Night thing, vampire hyponisis specialists, blood-powered warriors and then some sort of Nosferatu goes-all-freaky vampire type.

Any other VtM archetypes worth doing that're classically vampiric?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:36 am

Yeah, I'm curious what seven VtM Clans are worth porting in your mind, Frank. I figure Nos, Setites, Tremere and Lasombra are on the list, but I never got much of a chance to play VtM, and the politics angle turned me off, since I'm not much good at it.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:43 am

He referred to them as the seven "basic clans" and a few of the expansion clans. So recall here that Frank is old and first started playing Vampire back when only the Camarilla clans came in the main book. Dunno which expansion clans he thinks are salvageable except in that Ravnos is clearly going to be top of that list, because why wouldn't you want absurd racist caricatures in your game?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:07 am

Ah, gotcha.

I mean, I think Ravnos are salvageable, if you get rid of the racist part. Illusionist vamps, even nomadic illusionist vamps, are pretty cool and usable.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:17 am

Maxus wrote:There's traction for it. Have a vampire base class and then PrCs to represent different gimmicks--the whole Chiltren off Zer Night thing, vampire hyponisis specialists, blood-powered warriors and then some sort of Nosferatu goes-all-freaky vampire type.

Any other VtM archetypes worth doing that're classically vampiric?

4e tried to sell me on the 4 roles and badly failed in that job. But there are three supported roles. You have warriors (which include fighters and rogues), you have support (which includes clerics and bards), and you have blasters (which is wizards and everyone who plays in the wizard pond). We can take a note from 4e and call the support classes "Leaders" because it makes them feel better.

Vampire Warriors

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[/img]
This in-your-face Vampire Slayer is a light armor skirmisher with rage issues. Face paint and perfect abs go with the in-your-face rebel aesthetic. We have basically a Brujah expy with level appropriate super strength and speed enhancements. At higher levels, he flies around. Uses rage bar mechanics where he gets temporary boosts to strength and/or speed when blood is spilled.

This sturdy Blood Knight is a heavy armor bruiser. Emphasizing the tenacity and endurance of the undead, he's tough as nails and able to wear superheavy armor and wield oversized weapons because he's untiring and don't give no fucks. Specializes in vampiric healing in combat to push the unstoppable theme. You could go Ventrue-ish if you played up the lordly aristocratic deal for their out-of-combat stuff, or you could make them hideous beneath their helmets and non-combat participate with rat and bat scouts as a Nosferatu expy.

Begins combat by ending it, the Shadow Assassin is super stealthy and hits extremely hard. You might think this is conceptually an Assamite, but it's really not. Basically you're probably going to want to have a Malkavian expy here. Super stealth, super senses, fogs memories, and backstabs like a bitch. Encourage creepy mental hangups like a Batman villain and not at all like a Fishmalk.

Vampire Leaders

Surrounded by minions the vampire Pack Leader begins life with some freaky wolves and replaces them with Renfields and Igors and then gets their own Vampire Spawn to play with. Gives shadowy strength bonuses to allies and has a few allies to throw around the battlefield even when the other player characters don't show up to play. You play up the animalistic pack theme and you have yourself a solid Gangrel expy.

Working on his tortured metaphors, it's the Vampire Artist. A foppish Toreador expy who enjoys the finer things in life and also has super senses. He heals others with his blood and generally acts like a Bard. But with stunning good looks.

Vampire Blasters

This sorcerous Blood Shaman cuts herself or other people to power spells. The simple Tremere formula always works and is exactly as powerful as you let it be.

The sorcerous Shadow Serpent is a simple Setite expy. Armed with subtle mind magic and transforming into a giant snake, she's a Conan-styled wizard. Always room for one of those. And if she sucks blood with her gratuitous snake fangs, so much the better.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:28 am

How much should Masquerade Expies interact with normal classes vs having their own unique classes for these archetypes? The Brujah Barbarian was an obvious thing people would want to play, and I figured it'd be better to let people select Vampire (Brujah) as their race, put levels in Barbarian, and pick up Potence and Celerity feats or something.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:44 am

Prak wrote:How much should Masquerade Expies interact with normal classes vs having their own unique classes for these archetypes? The Brujah Barbarian was an obvious thing people would want to play, and I figured it'd be better to let people select Vampire (Brujah) as their race, put levels in Barbarian, and pick up Potence and Celerity feats or something.

When you're making a new edition, how many classes you have and how specific/general they are is an open question with no right answer. There are definitely wrong answers, like how 4e released with 8 classes and the Rogue class literally could only wield daggers, rapiers, or hand crossbows.

But the answer to whether the Brujah Expy Vampire Slayer character should be a small vampire template with a couple of Brujah options and a big Warrior class with a couple berserking options or a Vampire Slayer class which brings most of the noise itself - that's all a formatting question. It could be done well or poorly either way. It's just that if you are specific enough that you have a Vampire Slayer class, you're going to need a lot of classes and if you're going to have a generic Warrior class you're going to need a lot of options.

Computer games get away with having three playable classes which are Vampire Berserker, Schoolgirl with Chainsaw, and High Powered Attorney with Heat Vision, but a table top RPG needs to support more character concepts than that. But there are lots of ways to get there, and none of them are inherently right or wrong.

-Username17

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:30 am

Do you see turning into a bat/wolf/mist being a feature of all vampires or of certain classes

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:09 pm

OgreBattle wrote:Do you see turning into a bat/wolf/mist being a feature of all vampires or of certain classes

However you divide up vampires, not all of them turn into stuff. Your Brujah Expy Lost Boys style vampires fly around but don't transform, while your Draculesque and Conan Setite vampires do.

Masquerade Clan power lists are a good way to divide things up. Except for the fact that the specific power lists are hugely unbalanced and characters in Masquerade don't get enough powers by a huge amount.

-Username17