Tome Rogue Tome Ninja [Tome of Fixes]

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Kaelik
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Tome Rogue Tome Ninja [Tome of Fixes]

Post by Kaelik »

Ninja Rogue
"I'm going to murder you so hard."

Ninjas are masters of murdering people super hard, they have a variety of methods of murdering people super hard. Their primary stat is whatever stats they use to make whatever types of attack roll they want. Because of Ninja versatility in attack forms, that's usually going to be Dex, since you can use Dex for melee and ranged. Though some ninjas choose to use Str and Wisdom.

Alignment: Any
Race: Any
HD: d8
BAB: 3/4
Saving Throws: Good Ref and Will
Skills: 8+Int
Class skills: All of them.

1: Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding, Sneak Attack Modification, So Many Pockets.
2: Evasion, Deception, Extra Murder
3: Sneak Attack +2d6
4: Very Perceptive, Uncanny Dodge
5: Sneak Attack +3d6
6: Smoke Bomb
7: Sneak Attack +4d6, Spiderclimb
8: Blink, Skill Mastery
9: Sneak Attack +5d6
10: Non-Detection, Ninja Special Abilities
11: Sneak Attack +6d6
12: Ninja Special Abilities
13: Sneak Attack +7d6
14: Ninja Special Abilities
15: Sneak Attack +8d6
16: Ninja Special Abilities
17: Sneak Attack +9d6
18: Ninja Special Abilities
19: Sneak Attack +10d6
20: Ninja Ascension

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Ninja's are proficient will all simple and martial weapons, also shuriken. Ninja's are proficient with light armor.

Trapfinding (Ex): Ninjas can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. A ninja automatically gets a Search check when it is within 30ft of anything it could detect with this ability. A success results in identifying the effect.

Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

Ninjas can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

A ninja who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with its party) without disarming it.

Any non Illusion spell that leaves a specific effect in a single location for a non instantaneous duration is considered a trap and can be detected and disabled.

Sneak Attack (Ex): If a ninja can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from the ninja's attack, it can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The ninja’s attack deals extra damage any time its target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the ninja flanks its target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two ninja levels thereafter. Should the ninja score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can normally only count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a ninja can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. It cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty.

A ninja cannot normally sneak attack any creature that is immune to critical hits. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Sneak Attack Modification (Ex): At level 1, a Ninja may, as a swift action, activate a single modification that applies to all sneak attacks he makes that round. At level 1 it may choose between the following:

Accuracy Modification: Any attack that would be a Sneak Attack gains a +2 to the attack roll.

Unliving modification: Sneak attack damage may be dealt to an undead.

Clockwork modification: Sneak attack damage may be dealt to constructs.

Biology modification: Sneak attack damage may be applied to plants and oozes.

Elemental modification: Sneak attack damage may be dealt to elementals.

At level 5 the Ninja gains access to three additional augmentations that it may activate with his swift action:

Painful modification: The ninja's sneak attacks do an additional 1d6 sneak attack damage on each attack.

Practiced modification: In place of Sneak attack damage, the Ninja may do one third of its sneak attack dice damage (round up) as bonus damage on all attacks he makes this round against any target. This damage applies even if the target has concealment or total concealment from the ninja. This damage applies even to targets that are immune to critical hits. The target need not be flanked or denied it's dex bonus for this damage to apply. Applying this modification prevent the Rogue from obtaining his regular sneak attack damage on any attacks he makes this round, even if the target would normally take that damage.

Sniping: A Ninja can use Sneak Attack at any range.

So Many Pockets (Ex): A ninja is very practiced at having everything he needs on him at all times, a ninja can carry anything up to a heavy load as a light load because of his talented packing skills. Anything over this limit, he cannot carry.

Furthermore a ninja can draw or stow any object he has on his person as a free action.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a ninja can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If it makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, it instead takes no damage. A helpless ninja does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Deception (Ex): A ninja can, as a standard action, disguise himself as a nonspecific member of a large group. IE, he can disguise himself as a farmer in the village, or a guard in the castle, but not the captain of the guard or a guards partner, or a specific woman's husband. When using this ability to disguise himself, the ninja gains a +10 bonus to disguise.

Extra Murder (Ex): When a ninja fights, he usually likes to stick an extra knife in the other kidney, just to be sure.

A Ninja gets Two Weapon Fighting and Rapid Shot as bonus feats.

At level 8 he gets Greater Two Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat.

At level 15, if he doesn't already have it, he gets Perfect Two Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat.

Very Perceptive (Ex): As a swift action, the Ninja can see Invisible enemies for one round as if under the effect of the See Invisibility spell, and his Trapfinding can now work on Illusion spells as well (and any Illusion spell identified with a Search DC may be disabled at any later time). However, in addition to the swift action to activate this effect, the ninja also loses his swift action on the next round as well.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a ninja can react to danger before its senses would normally allow it to do so. It retains its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if it is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, it still loses its Dexterity bonus to AC if stunned or otherwise denied its dex by limited ability to react, rather than limit knowledge of the attack.

A ninja also can no longer be flanked.

Smoke Bomb (Ex): As a swift action the Rogue may throw down a smoke bomb which creates a 10ft radius sphere of smoke that operates as the Mist in the Obscuring Mist spell. Because of his long practice and knowledge of enemies current location, the Ninja may after activating his smoke bomb, continue to attack enemies with no concealment (or total concealment) miss chance from his smoke for the rest of the round in which he activates the smoke.

This likely allows him to deny the dexterity bonus of enemies on his attacks, and thus likely sneak attack, many enemies.

Spider Climb (Ex): A Rogue gains the ability to climb on walls like a ninja. He can climb any wall, or hang from the ceiling, or anything else, at any time, like the Spider Climb spell.

Blink (Su): A ninja may, as a standard action, begin blinking as the blink spell for a duration of 2 minutes. However, unlike the normal blink spell, the rogue has no miss chance on any of it's attacks.

Skill Mastery (Ex): The ninja becomes so certain in the use of its skills that it can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. When making a skill check, it may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent it from doing so. All of them. Every skill.

Non-Detection (Ex): A ninja is hard to track with Divinations. A ninja has a permanent Non-Detection ability applied to it, as the spell of the same name. It may lower the ability as a free action and return it as standard action. This ability is non-magical, and cannot be dispelled.

Unlike the spell (or perhaps exactly like, ask your DM) this effect does not apply to the spells True Seeing and See Invisibility.

Ninja Special Abilities (Ex): On attaining 10th level, and at every two levels thereafter except level 20 (12th, 14th, 16th, and 18th), a ninja gains a special ability of its choice from among the following options.

Note, there are some minor changes to the Rogue Special Abilities of the same name. Read the abilities.

Crippling Strike (Ex)
A ninja with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that its blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of its attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability. Note that immunity to critical hits and concealment do not prevent this Strength damage so long as the creature takes damage from a ninja's attack.

Defensive Roll (Ex)
The ninja can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than it otherwise would. Once per day, when it would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the ninja can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the ninja must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, it takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, it takes full damage. It must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute it defensive roll—if it is denied it Dexterity bonus to AC, it can’t use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the ninja’s evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll.

Improved Evasion (Ex)
This ability works like evasion, except that while the ninja still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth it takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless ninja does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Opportunist (Ex)
Once per round, the ninja can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the ninja’s attack of opportunity for that round. Even a ninja with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the opportunist ability more than once per round.

Slippery Mind (Ex)
This ability represents the ninja’s ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel it. If a ninja with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails its saving throw, it can delay the spells effect for one round and attempt a second save again 1 round later at the same DC. If both saves fail, the spell takes effect after the second failed save.

Shadow Walk (Su)
A Ninja may use the Shadow Walk spell as a supernatural ability once per day.

Transferred Sight (Sp)
A Ninja can cast Spymasters Coin and Chain of Eyes a total of 20 times per day, divided how he chooses between the two abilities.

Ninja Ascension (Su): A Ninja has mastered the arts of stealth, and can, as a move action, teleport up to it's move speed. Additionally the ninja is permanently under the effect of a Greater Invisibility effect.

EDIT: in case you can't tell, I don't have a lot of out of combat utility, so it mostly comes down to "hey, you have UMD, have at it" which is not ideal. Anyone have any particular out of combat utility that they think a character like this should have?
Last edited by Kaelik on Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:20 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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Post by Koumei »

Ninjas are often MASTERS OF DISGUISE, and have bags of lame tricks and gadgets that are handy for breathing underwater and similar shit. If you work those in as codified abilities or flat-out tell people they should invest in the relevant skills/feats and basic items, that can cover a bunch of the out of combat stuff.

I look forward to seeing the Rogue, given I think so far the Den just says "You can do okay as a Rogue if you abuse everything they have available. Do that. If you can't do that, don't play a Rogue", and while that's one way to do things, I wouldn't mind seeing a more newbie-friendly one that I can hand to new players who "want to be a rogue (TM)".
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Post by Kaelik »

Actually the Ninja/Rogue are the same class. I thought that might be obvious by the way that I put literally 100% of the Rogue class features onto the Ninja, plus some other stuff.

I'm going to write up all the abilities probably during playoff games today, but obviously most of it you can figure out on your own.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by erik »

Koumei wrote:I think so far the Den just says "You can do okay as a Rogue if you abuse everything they have available. Do that. If you can't do that, don't play a Rogue", and while that's one way to do things, I wouldn't mind seeing a more newbie-friendly one that I can hand to new players who "want to be a rogue (TM)".
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Post by Kaelik »

Finished.
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Re: Tome Rogue Tome Ninja [Tome of Fixes]

Post by maglag »

Figures that after I pointed out to Kaelik that a rogue cannot disarm Alarms, he would go and write a fix for that.
Kaelik wrote: Skill Mastery (Ex): The ninja becomes so certain in the use of its skills that it can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. All of them. Every skill.
Hmmm, what does this exactly do? Because I don't really recall any skills that you're prevented from being used in adverse conditions. Can your ninja swim where there's no water? Does your ninja ignores listen penalties for being a wall in the way? Can your ninja use physical skills while stunned?

Didn't you just mean "the rogue can take 10 on skill checks all the time" perhaps?

Also you say that ninjas "have a variety of methods of murdering people super hard", but then the only thing they can really do is full sneak attack and hope that their target can be stabbed to death. Yes, they have UMD, but everybody else can grab that and mages do it better. C'mon, not even poison use at least?
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Post by OgreBattle »

What other classes do you intend this Ninja Rogue to be playing alongside
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Post by Kaelik »

OgreBattle wrote:What other classes do you intend this Ninja Rogue to be playing alongside
Wizards/Tome Whatevers. Although admittedly it probably doesn't have much to do aside from act like a slightly stronger than usual minion to casters past level 14.
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Re: Tome Rogue Tome Ninja [Tome of Fixes]

Post by Kaelik »

maglag wrote:Figures that after I pointed out to Kaelik that a rogue cannot disarm Alarms, he would go and write a fix for that.
No, that's not what it is. The class codifies as part of the rogue class all the abilities that TGD already thinks Rogues have in 3.5.

Things like blink not having a miss chance for ranged attacks, or rogues being able to disable Walls of Force have been TGD rules interpretations since 2004, and I'm just codifying them in the class so that if someone elsewhere doesn't have to look up decade old TGD threads to see blink arguments or "magical trap" arguments.
maglag wrote:Hmmm, what does this exactly do? Because I don't really recall any skills that you're prevented from being used in adverse conditions. Can your ninja swim where there's no water? Does your ninja ignores listen penalties for being a wall in the way? Can your ninja use physical skills while stunned?
Perhaps the word "reliably" means something? Nah, it's probably just color you can ignore and then whine about how absent that word it doesn't mean anything. It's a copy and paste of Skill Mastery where my copy and paste only picked up half of the ability. Don't be a dense fuck on purpose.
maglag wrote:Also you say that ninjas "have a variety of methods of murdering people super hard", but then the only thing they can really do is full sneak attack and hope that their target can be stabbed to death. Yes, they have UMD, but everybody else can grab that and mages do it better. C'mon, not even poison use at least?
They can murderate with bows/flasks/melee weapons. They can trigger SA in more and better ways than normal rogues. And they can murderate people who are immune to SA and can't be qualified for SA too. It's not a statement about how the class can totally kill you without it's class features by casting Finger of Death, it's a statement about how they do fucktons of HP damage and they have a variety of ways to death that damage.
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Re: Tome Rogue Tome Ninja [Tome of Fixes]

Post by Pixels »

I like it, especially the improved Trapfinding and the tradeoffs from Sneak Attack Modification. Very cool.
Kaelik wrote:EDIT: in case you can't tell, I don't have a lot of out of combat utility, so it mostly comes down to "hey, you have UMD, have at it" which is not ideal. Anyone have any particular out of combat utility that they think a character like this should have?
Spider Climb? Ventriloquism? Maybe a few Ninja Special Abilities with out-of-combat utility, like Hide in Plain Sight, Spymaster's Coin, Chain of Eyes, Silent/Minor Image, or Flee the Scene? Reduce or remove penalties to Move Silently for moving quickly?

This is a combat thing, but I agree with maglag that poison use is a good thematic fit, though it would be neat to have it do more than eliminate the shitty critical failures. For example, you could increase the DC of injury poisons used on a sneak attack to represent really digging it in.

Does Smoke Bomb's smoke give full concealment? It seems to be implied by "this likely allows him to deny the dexterity bonus of enemies on his attacks" but normal smoke only gives concealment.
Last edited by Pixels on Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tome Rogue Tome Ninja [Tome of Fixes]

Post by Kaelik »

Pixels wrote:Spider Climb? Ventriloquism? Maybe a few Ninja Special Abilities with out-of-combat utility, like Hide in Plain Sight, Spymaster's Coin, Chain of Eyes, Silent/Minor Image, or Flee the Scene? Reduce or remove penalties to Move Silently for moving quickly?
I think that the way the hide and MS rules work in D&D is fucking stupid. HiPS is even stupider because it means those rules are always in effect.

I could see a Chain or Eyes/Spymasters Coin type one, will work on that.
Pixels wrote:This is a combat thing, but I agree with maglag that poison use is a good thematic fit, though it would be neat to have it do more than eliminate the shitty critical failures. For example, you could increase the DC of injury poisons used on a sneak attack to represent really digging it in.
Poison in D&D is fucking stupid. It combines every dumb aspect even possible for an attack mode into one stupid mechanic:

1) Spend money on consumable attacks.
2) Either it's really shitty, or Dumpster dive for real power.
3) Everything in the game is immune to it, so it's fucking shit.
4) Non scaling saves, so basically just fishing for 1s.
5) Zero preparation? Worthless. Infinity Preparation? Instant alphastrike for fuck you.
6) Completely shit rules that are super vague. Can you combine more poison to increase the DC? Sometimes yes, othertimes no, but as a PC who knows? What about applying lots of poison to a single attack, sometimes yes, sometimes no, What is clarity and why would I want that?

So yeah, I'm not going to recommend people engage in some of the worst designed rules in the game for marginal combat effectiveness upgrade against some enemies (unless you are allowed to alpha strike for infinity with stupid combine rules).

If I wanted Rogues to force a save against X effect, I would just give them that ability. I think what they have now is sufficient for combat.
Pixels wrote:Does Smoke Bomb's smoke give full concealment? It seems to be implied by "this likely allows him to deny the dexterity bonus of enemies on his attacks" but normal smoke only gives concealment.
"A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target)."

That's from Obscuring Mist. So as a 10ft Radius effect, you can target it on any corner of the square you are in to give you total concealment against any specific enemy, and possibly all enemies.

That was what I was going for, as opposed to "Smoke" in the environment effects, will fix it.
Last edited by Kaelik on Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Koumei »

Looks good at what it does, I guess? Probably a good option for new players who don't want to deal with spell lists and crap? I don't have much criticism for it, it's largely self-explanatory, and when the game says "And now everyone needs to fly", they have UMD (same applies for any other arbitrary wall put up where the Wizard solves it for himself by casting a specific spell: the Rogue headbutts a scroll of that spell and coasts by on that).
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

I'm not a big fan of Extra Murder. First, attack penalties for extra attacks are a very unfortunate mechanic and shouldn't be propagated, because of how the transition between Standard and Full attacks works.

Second, I don't know what the object of this ability is, but it looks like an attempt to incorporate Rapid Shot and a version of TWF into the class so those aren't just mandatory feat taxes. That's good, but wouldn't it be simpler to just hand those out as bonus feats? Since it stacks at all with TWF, I think that's still a feat tax, just later in the build.
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Post by RobbyPants »

If you're still looking for any out-of-combat utility, you might be able to hand out some way to bypass/trick certain Divination effects. This could be keyed off of Bluff if you want a skill check for it.

I'm thinking at a minimum:
  • hiding/lying about your alignment
  • giving off non-threatening surface thoughts
  • constant Nondetection effect.
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Post by Kaelik »

RobbyPants wrote:If you're still looking for any out-of-combat utility, you might be able to hand out some way to bypass/trick certain Divination effects. This could be keyed off of Bluff if you want a skill check for it.

I'm thinking at a minimum:
  • hiding/lying about your alignment
  • giving off non-threatening surface thoughts
  • constant Nondetection effect.
So I just looked at the edit timer to make sure I wasn't crazy. You see that it already has constant non-detection right?

EDIT: added the Transferred Sight special ability.
Last edited by Kaelik on Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RedstoneOrc »

Well this looks great and really the rouge needed a small combat boost for a tome game. The out of combat utility isn't really that big of a deal considering that games rarely get past tenth, and skills work well enough for the first 5 levels of the game. After the mid level hump of out of combat uselessness wealth by level should keep you more than just a strong minion to the casters.

But one nagging question. Why for shitmuffin sake is shadow walk a once a day spell like? I thought this board hated once a day abilities? I don't think it should be more than three but it should be at least as useful as boots of teleportation
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

Any proficiency love for kama, nunchaku, or sai? For added flavor.

I'd like to see a save-or-die in the class, so there's more to do than tons of damage. Also makes an easy poison theme.

You've already noted this, but I feel like this class is a 12-ish level lifespan, and UMD is a bit of a crutch.
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Post by Kaelik »

...You Lost Me wrote:Any proficiency love for kama, nunchaku, or sai? For added flavor.

I'd like to see a save-or-die in the class, so there's more to do than tons of damage. Also makes an easy poison theme.

You've already noted this, but I feel like this class is a 12-ish level lifespan, and UMD is a bit of a crutch.
Every class has at most a 14 level life span, the entire game ceases to be at level 15. A level 14 Rogue can be a valued member of your team, I mean, he kills things better than your minions, and he has perhaps some non-zero utility.
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