How many parsecs long is the Kessel Run?

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Post by Username17 »

Kaelik wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:And another of the new articles of faith is that the fanwank explanation that contrary to the original script Han was telling the truth when he spouted that Kessel Run nonsense is now the holy writ.
Or, alternatively, instead of Abrams being a fanboi who wants to declare himself the winner of internet arguments, Disney on buying Star Wars immediately hired a Story Team who's explicit goal was to sort through Star Wars material and decide what to make cannon, and the decided that instead of Han Solo being an idiot, they would go with the much better and much less stupid explanation provided in material written by actual people employed by Lucas Arts for the actual purpose of fleshing out the world and making Lucas Arts money who invented an actual place called Kessel which has and Actual Black Hole complex right next door, making distance shorter for people willing to travel closer to the black holes.

Seriously, nothing in the universe is funnier than people complaining about material written in Star Wars X-Wing books as "fanwank" because it hurts them so much to admit that Han Solo wasn't a dumbshit. Lucas Arts retcons to correct errors are still retcons to correct errors even when they are written by sanctioned authors paid by lucas arts, you don't have to call it fanwank to keep making fun of the original movies, or George Lucas, or Harrison Ford, or people who take star wars seriously and say movies suck because of minor physics errors, you can totally still do all those things without pretending that the hundreds of EU books and EU games are all filthy fanwank, instead of you know, part of the star wars IP that made money for Lucas Arts.
:rofl:

See, it's exactly this sort of shit which is why the EU fans had to be condemned to the outer darkness. Also, it's a very ample demonstration of why embracing the Kessel Run black hole retcon was a very bad call.

See, you know all about those stupid fucking black holes, because you're an annoying and obsessive nerd. But 99% of the people who watch those films don't. And for them, the fact that a ship "made the Kessel run in 12 parsecs" is not grammatical is a bad thing. Even with the explanation that it's technically a thing that could be true in the Star Wars universe, it's still grammatically clunky, and without that obscure and specialized knowledge it's just terminology fail.

If you were able to cut through a mountain pass instead of going around, you wouldn't say that you "made the trip in 12 kilometers!" because that's grammatically clunky. It sounds like you don't know what you're talking about even to people who know what you meant.

Every time someone talks about making the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs, it's like nails on a chalkboard to everyone who knows what a parsec is. Or even to people who know what part of speech a parsec is. It's like when JJ Abrams elected to show trails of the super blasty beam visible from the surface of another planet in real time. You can construct an elaborate in-world explanation for it, but it's still bad for the movie because it takes people out of the movie. It makes people stop and go "wait, that's not how those things work, like at all." And the time you spend post hoc explaining that shit is time that you wouldn't have to spend if you'd just not included any stupid shit in the first place.

Discussing the Kessel Run and parsecs is bad for the film. The official retcon explanation is stupid, and the damage it does to real peoples' enjoyment of the film is not in any way mitigated by getting an explanation later on. There is no payoff there. There is no eureka moment. The big reveal is totally inconsequential. If your script makes people in the audience go "What the fuck?" when the words are first spoken, that's bad. And to excuse doing it, that has to lead to something interesting and cool. The Kessel Run posthoc wall-of-text is neither interesting nor cool. When the other shoe finally drops it's just a pile of gibberish starchart waypoint numbers. Fuck. That.

It's bad storytelling in the name of winning a stupid fan argument that was uninteresting and dumb in 1977.

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Post by Kaelik »

If you can go back in time to 1976 when it was filmed and retroactively replace the line with something better, that would be great. But since he have not in fact developed time travel, there are two possibilities:

1) Han Solo is an idiot who doesn't know the difference between measures of time and distance, and has no idea how other smugglers measure things either, and probably doesn't have a fast ship, and the Falcon is pretty average to crap, and no one noticed for 4 years during the rebellion, or people just sort of, felt bad and didn't tell him.

2) The decision to measure the Kessel Run in parsecs was made by someone else besides Han Solo, and regardless of how you think it should be measured they choose the noun parsec instead of the noun hour or day (both of which are the same part of speech by the way, god I never thought I'd have to say that), and Han Solo is conforming to the standard measurement type.

So if you believe that Han Solo being an idiot makes for a better story you can totally wish that was the case, but I don't think that people providing a post hoc explanation that makes him not an idiot is worse for the story than him being an idiot, just like I don't think a post hoc explanation for Alderaan making noise that involves a simulated noise would make the story worse than the alternative explanation that really the Death Star never worked and they shot a tiny model of Alderaan with a tiny laser while they actually blew up the planet with a punch of explosives they had tucked on the planet earlier.

Post hoc explanations that make the characters stay just as competent as they were intended to be in the movie are better than alternative where you just assume they are all incompetent idiots. And that's the actual choice you actually get to make until you invent a time machine.

As I said, nothing about post hoc explanations stops you from insulting the original trilogy for the mistake, or George Lucas, or Harrison Ford, or really anyone you want to, almost regardless of who's actual fault it is.

But for some reason some people genuinely prefer for the characters to be blithering idiots and get mad when post hoc explanations make Han Solo not an idiot, but that's pretty much a super minority opinion by reflexive EU haters who got touched in the No No spot at some point by someone, and most people who watch the movie would probably prefer Solo not be an idiot.
Last edited by Kaelik on Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by virgil »

Kaelik wrote:are better than alternative where you just assume they are all incompetent idiots.
The realistic alternative is that we assume the writers are idiots for not knowing how numbers work, not the characters.
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Post by Kaelik »

virgil wrote:
Kaelik wrote:are better than alternative where you just assume they are all incompetent idiots.
The realistic alternative is that we assume the writers are idiots for not knowing how numbers work, not the characters.
Yes, but since assuming the writers are idiots is not actually incompatible with post hoc justifications written into the universe, that has no bearing on how the EU is terrible for raping Frank's Childhood by retroactively making Han Solo not an idiot.
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Post by Kaelik »

name_here wrote:The original script implies Han is just bullshitting Luke. But the Maw is totally awesome and I unconditionally approve of keeping it in canon.
I don't think that would mean that the writers aren't idiots, since you wouldn't bullshit people in the wrong units either.

EDIT: also, because I've heard that mentioned before and it sounded stupid then, The actual alleged shooting script doesn't have that at all, and the script that does have that line was edited after the movies came out to fit the movies and published in 1979, so... probably just a different post hoc justification by a different person.
Last edited by Kaelik on Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by DSMatticus »

The 1976 "actual shooting script" reads as thus:
HAN
It's the ship that made the Kessel run in
less than 12 par-sec's! I've outrun
Imperial starships, not local bulk-
cruisers mind you. These are the big
Corellian ships I'm talking about. I think
she's fast enough for you old man. What's
your cargo?
This is the 1979 script which was released after the film:
HAN
It's the ship that made the Kessel
run in less than twelve parsecs!

Ben reacts to Solo's stupid attempt to impress them with obvious misinformation.

HAN
(continuing)
I've outrun Imperial starships,
not the local bulk-cruisers, mind
you. I'm talking about the big
Corellian ships now. She's fast
enough for you, old man. What's
the cargo?
The actual scene looks like this.

It's pretty obvious that the film does not match the 1976 script. The first big hint should be that the title is The Adventures of Luke Starkiller, which is two names wrong in the space of five words. It's not really all that unusual for changes to happen during filming that are either never documented or documented after the fact. The script doesn't get revised for every single change the director makes before or during the filming of a particular scene, and so the only record of those changes may very well be the film itself.

But it is very clear that someone decided - either before that scene was shot or during filming - that it needed to be changed. Someone split up Han's line of dialogue and spliced in a reaction from Ben because they thought that's what the scene needed. Maybe the writer, George Lucas, went over the scene before they started filming it and decided it wasn't clear enough what was happening. Maybe the director, George Lucas, saw the actors playing the scene out in front of him and realized it wasn't showing what he wanted it to show. Regardless, the final scene clearly does not match the 1976 script, which makes calling the 1979 script a post-hoc explanation pretty weak. The changes were made during filming. That is not what post-hoc means.
Last edited by DSMatticus on Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by hyzmarca »

DSMatticus wrote:The 1976 "actual shooting script" reads as thus:
HAN
It's the ship that made the Kessel run in
less than 12 par-sec's! I've outrun
Imperial starships, not local bulk-
cruisers mind you. These are the big
Corellian ships I'm talking about. I think
she's fast enough for you old man. What's
your cargo?
This is the 1979 script which was released after the film:
HAN
It's the ship that made the Kessel
run in less than twelve parsecs!

Ben reacts to Solo's stupid attempt to impress them with obvious misinformation.

HAN
(continuing)
I've outrun Imperial starships,
not the local bulk-cruisers, mind
you. I'm talking about the big
Corellian ships now. She's fast
enough for you, old man. What's
the cargo?
The actual scene looks like this.

It's pretty obvious that the film does not match the 1976 script. The first big hint should be that the title is The Adventures of Luke Starkiller, which is two names wrong in the space of five words. It's not really all that unusual for changes to happen during filming that are either never documented or documented after the fact. The script doesn't get revised for every single change the director makes before or during the filming of a particular scene, and so the only record of those changes may very well be the film itself.

But it is very clear that someone decided - either before that scene was shot or during filming - that it needed to be changed. Someone split up Han's line of dialogue and spliced in a reaction from Ben because they thought that's what the scene needed. Maybe the writer, George Lucas, went over the scene before they started filming it and decided it wasn't clear enough what was happening. Maybe the director, George Lucas, saw the actors playing the scene out in front of him and realized it wasn't showing what he wanted it to show. Regardless, the final scene clearly does not match the 1976 script, which makes calling the 1979 script a post-hoc explanation pretty weak. The changes were made during filming. That is not what post-hoc means.
You know, looking at that scene, I'd be willing to believe that it wasn't a case of Obi-Wan being incredulous at the obvious exaggeration, but Alec Guinness being incredulous at the nonsensical dialog.
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Post by Kaelik »

DSMatticus wrote:But it is very clear that someone decided - either before that scene was shot or during filming - that it needed to be changed. Someone split up Han's line of dialogue and spliced in a reaction from Ben because they thought that's what the scene needed. Maybe the writer, George Lucas, went over the scene before they started filming it and decided it wasn't clear enough what was happening. Maybe the director, George Lucas, saw the actors playing the scene out in front of him and realized it wasn't showing what he wanted it to show. Regardless, the final scene clearly does not match the 1976 script, which makes calling the 1979 script a post-hoc explanation pretty weak. The changes were made during filming. That is not what post-hoc means.
No, it shows that the director had a slight cut in the middle of the speech to Alec Guinness slightly twisting his mouth. And that someone releasing a script two and half years later decided to write in "reacts to obvious misinformation" as an explanation of a half second twist of the mouth.

The script explicitly states that it was edited after the movie to match the movie, so there is zero fucking evidence that this way overblown statement about Guinness's reaction is some kind of on set direction that guided the use of parsec (since we know a previous script had the exact same parsec line in the exact same speech without this direction).

It's possible that Lucas was really trying to convey that this was bullshit because he was using the wrong type of measurement unit, because theoretically anything is possible, but a script release in 1979 that writes editorial comments about slight lip twists and explicitly states that it was edited after the movie's release is barely move evidence of this claim than the video of the scene plus fervent wishes. That one line editorializing his reaction could have been an on set guide, but it could also totally have not been at all, and the script as released is not good evidence of one position or the other.
crasskris wrote:And since Star Wars Rebels is still canon: Does 'the only remaining Jedi' mean that the two resident Jedi on that show are foreshadowed to meet a violent end?
Well since they are friends with Bail Organa, but never once show up in the original trilogy or are relevant to it at all, which they would if there were still Jedi and fighting for the rebellion (especially because Vader knows about them)... Yeah, it seemed super obvious they were going to totally get murdered at the end of the show pretty much no matter what.
Last edited by Kaelik on Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by sandmann »

Kaelik wrote:
virgil wrote:
Kaelik wrote:are better than alternative where you just assume they are all incompetent idiots.
The realistic alternative is that we assume the writers are idiots for not knowing how numbers work, not the characters.
Yes, but since assuming the writers are idiots is not actually incompatible with post hoc justifications written into the universe ...
The point is not incompadatability, the point is that it looks desperate. Really, really desperate. Instead of admitting that yes, they fucked up, and quietly burrowing the sentence in the following media, they had to come up with an explanation that obviously exists only to make that sentence stop sounding stupid.
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Post by Username17 »

The point is that the scene where Rey inexplicably squees about Kessel Run distances serves no purpose except to jack off Kaelik. Everyone who knows even vaguely what a parsec is and doesn't have a bunch of Star Wars EU trivia to mind caulk it better hits that piece of dialog and says:

Image

The script writers are doubling down on a piece of dialog that doesn't work. It's bad. Characters shouldn't use clunky dialog that takes the audience out of the movie.

And the worst part is: it serves no purpose. Han Solo gets his dick held for him so many times in that movie by Rey and everybody else that that segment doesn't serve to build up Han Solo or the Millennium Falcon as being a big deal. That shit was already handled. All we get from that is that Rey has heard legends of the exploits of the ship... but again we already get that from other exchanges.

If they had resolved it the other way, there might have been some development. Imagine instead that Han Solo uses the same Kessel Run line from New Hope and Rey responds "The Kessel Run is 12 parsecs long, every ship makes it in 12 parsecs." And then Han looks at her appraisingly and says "You're not as dumb as you look." or something along those lines. While the "Han Solo is a rogue who likes to pull fast ones on rubes" didn't need to be separately established (they do fine on that score with the people coming to collect moneys), we'd establish that Rey knows things and give Han Solo a reason to respect her. It would have advanced the story in any way at all, as opposed to the scene they actually did shoot which served no purpose but to make certain flavors of neckbeard fan clap like trained seals for having a reference they recognized come on screen.

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Post by Kaelik »

sandmann wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
virgil wrote:The realistic alternative is that we assume the writers are idiots for not knowing how numbers work, not the characters.
Yes, but since assuming the writers are idiots is not actually incompatible with post hoc justifications written into the universe ...
The point is not incompadatability, the point is that it looks desperate. Really, really desperate. Instead of admitting that yes, they fucked up, and quietly burrowing the sentence in the following media, they had to come up with an explanation that obviously exists only to make that sentence stop sounding stupid.
I don't think a 1996 book written by a person who was not an original script writer for Star Wars coming up with a black hole cluster that retroactively makes Han Solo not stupid looks particularly desperate.

I have no idea how much blowback there was or wasn't about parsec in 1977-1983 and how much Lucas did or didn't care about it, but my guess is not much and not much, which is probably why the actual justification didn't come out until 1996 in the Han Solo Trilogy that explicitly did his backstory.

This sort of post hoc justification did absolutely nothing to murder Frank's childhood, as much as he claims so. And certainly does nothing to defend an original script writer or Lucas against claims of "being bad at science."
FrankTrollman wrote:The point is that the scene where Rey inexplicably squees about Kessel Run distances serves no purpose except to jack off Kaelik. Everyone who knows even vaguely what a parsec is and doesn't have a bunch of Star Wars EU trivia to mind caulk it better hits that piece of dialog and says:
So... Disney destroying the EU was a great thing, because the EU being written destroyed your childhood and a post hoc explanation makes the world a worse place, and that's why the fact that Disney chose to delete the EU, but then still tried to make Han Solo retroactively not an idiot in the original trilogy by still declaring him right in a completely different movie is bad, but if they had made a post hoc explanation you do like that would be good.

That is a completely coherent point that is not at all 100% grounded in your own butthurt.
FrankTrollman wrote:If they had resolved it the other way, there might have been some development. Imagine instead that Han Solo uses the same Kessel Run line from New Hope and Rey responds "The Kessel Run is 12 parsecs long, every ship makes it in 12 parsecs." And then Han looks at her appraisingly and says "You're not as dumb as you look."
So post hoc explanations you don't like are terrible, because that's just the director trying to win internet arguments about a stupid error in a cheesy space opera from the 70s, but they should add lines that justify post hoc explanations you made up and that would be good, because you want to declare yourself retroactively right about internet arguments involving a stupid error in a cheesy space opera from the 70s?

Or hey, maybe when they are going to jump through hyperspace into the gravity well of a planet they could have him mention that he once skirted a black hole to shorten the Kessel Run so the Falcon can remain in hyperspace closer to mass shadows than most ships, and that would establish something about the plot that wasn't otherwise established and still retroactively justify a stupid error in a 1970s cheesy space opera at the same time! But no, that would also suck, because that would make Frank sad by referencing an explanation he doesn't like. Which is also the reason we have to mention it in the way Frank likes too, by pretending he was just really bad at conning people and that he's still too stupid to know the difference between time and distance. Instead of just not mentioning it at all because it was a stupid mistake in a cheesy space opera in the 70s.

And that's why instead of attributing stupid lines in a new movie to the Disney writers and director working on the film not being good, we need to blame it on the filthy terrible EU that Disney already threw out, because the EU touched Frank's No No places in 1996 when they wrote a book about Han Solo that he didn't like.

Also the line is "less than 12 parsecs" so your preferred retcon still needs some modification.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

There were minor cringe worthy moments through the movie, but the god damn parsec thing was arguably the one truly "yeah well fuck you too movie" moment as far as I was concerned.
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Post by DSMatticus »

hyzmarca wrote:You know, looking at that scene, I'd be willing to believe that it wasn't a case of Obi-Wan being incredulous at the obvious exaggeration, but Alec Guinness being incredulous at the nonsensical dialog.
That's not how movies work. If you see something, it is because someone in the editing room decided to use that particular segment of footage from that particular camera to show you that particular moment. They had dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of shots they could have shown you instead, and they chose that specific one. That is not to say that mistakes aren't made or that there aren't stupidly edited films, but in this case it's a pretty simple shot and the element in question is the centerpiece thereof, so it probably meant something to the person who made the call to put in.
Kaelik wrote:No, it shows that the director had a slight cut in the middle of the speech to Alec Guinness slightly twisting his mouth.
Yes, yes that is exactly what it means. And that is noteworthy because...

1) Neither the break in Ford's line nor the reaction from Guinness are in the 1976 script. Consider Mark Hamilton, who doesn't respond at all, and just sits there looking like Mark Hamilton. Someone deliberately set that moment up before or during filming, and someone picked it out during editing to show you, the viewer.

2) The director you're talking about was actually just George Lucas, the guy who wrote the script we are discussing. Last minute changes, whether made on set or during the editing process, actually are meaningful insights into what the scriptwriter wanted you to take away from it. Because, you know, same guy and all.
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Post by Prak »

This whole Kessel Run argument reminds me why I'm glad I'm a casual fan of Star Wars...
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Post by Kaelik »

DSMatticus wrote:Yes, yes that is exactly what it means. And that is noteworthy because...

1) Neither the break in Ford's line nor the reaction from Guinness are in the 1976 script. Consider Mark Hamilton, who doesn't respond at all, and just sits there looking like Mark Hamilton. Someone deliberately set that moment up before or during filming, and someone picked it out during editing to show you, the viewer.

2) The director you're talking about was actually just George Lucas, the guy who wrote the script we are discussing. Last minute changes, whether made on set or during the editing process, actually are meaningful insights into what the scriptwriter wanted you to take away from it. Because, you know, same guy and all.
a) I am aware that Lucas was Director of New Hope. But since he didn't make the edits on the 79 script, it's not clear that he specifically meant even that thing, much less the other thing that people want to extrapolate from that thing in the 79 script. It would be a meaningful insight into the fact that a reaction is present, but what reaction is still in question. Whether Obi Wan is slightly frowning because he has picked up on an obvious lie, or because he doesn't believe a seemingly absurd claim certainly isn't clear from a slight mouth twist, and even if the 79 edit insertion is a plausible reading of the claim it's not the only one, so whether it was actually based on the actual on set directions or just someone putting it in based on watching the movie or their imperfect memory is not clear.

B) Mark Hamill.
Prak wrote:This whole Kessel Run argument reminds me why I'm glad I'm a casual fan of Star Wars...
No, don't you understand, as a Casual Star Wars Fan it is your DUTY to have strong opinions and be very upset that a book was written in 1996! Don't you understand. Just accepting occasional bad lines in a movie is something that is both totally impossible, and a sign of giving in to the filthy monster that is the EU for some reason.
Last edited by Kaelik on Thu Dec 31, 2015 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

I don't think I'd be anything other than a casual fan of star wars at best, but the kessel run thing offends me as merely a casual fan at best of units of measurement.
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Post by Prak »

And there was a perfectly good explanation for why Han uses units of distance to cover for Lucas being ignorant.

This whole pissing contest about authorial intent and EU and whatever is stupid bullshit, PL. I know that's the stock and trade of many posters here, but come up with better stupid bullshit to care about.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Prak wrote:And there was a perfectly good explanation for why Han uses units of distance to cover for Lucas being ignorant.
Really now? The second time. IN THE MOVIE, if so I blinked an missed it.

All I saw, all the majority of people saw, was a stupid error needlessly repeated and amplified, I don't give a shit about the EU or arguments about the EU, as a self contained piece of fiction that moment was unexplained, jarring, and really bad.

If your answer is "ah yeah, that WOULD look really stupid if you didn't read your background notes homework!" then you can fuck the hell off.
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Post by Prak »

Dude, my exposure to Star Wars is the Original and Prequel Trilogies, The Force Awakens, a handful of cgi cartoon episodes, and playing a collective probably two hours of various games. Oh, and I had The Essential Guide to Droids, because robots are awesome. The only Star Wars novel I've read is the adaptation of Phantom Menace when I was, like, 11.

This isn't a "if you read all your background notes homework!" thing. It's a "if you know even a single person who is a Star Wars nerd" thing. And if you spend any time on the internet, you basically do, I believe being one is hiring criteria for most nerd blogs.

The shit about asteroid fields is a perfectly acceptable way to cover Lucas' brain fart and isn't that obscure, I wouldn't think? Given that this argument has lasted at least as long as the fucking internet?

But ultimately, WHO FUCKING CARES!? Lucas is a hack who put better movies in space and added magic, because he had no clue what the fuck genre he was writing, and he got a unit wrong. What the fuck is this, politics where no one is ever allowed to make a single mistake?

Look, PL, I know Australia is a dusty geographic asshole with fuck all to do, but find something better than nerdraging over a screenwriter's brainderp. I'll quote a suggestion from the US Marines-
Jarhead wrote:Suggested techniques for the Marine to use in the avoidance of boredom and loneliness: Masturbation. Rereading of letters from unfaithful wives and girlfriends. Cleaning your rifle. Further masturbation. Rewiring Walkman. Arguing about religion and meaning of life. Discussing in detail, every woman the Marine has ever fucked. Debating differences, such as Cuban vs. Mexican, Harleys vs. Hondas, left- vs. right-handed masturbation. Further cleaning of rifle. Studying of Filipino mail order bride catalog. Further masturbation. Planning of Marine's first meal on return home. Imagining what the Marine's girlfriend and her man Jody are doing in the hay, or in the alley, or in a hotel bed.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

PhoneLobster wrote:
Prak wrote:And there was a perfectly good explanation for why Han uses units of distance to cover for Lucas being ignorant.
Really now? The second time. IN THE MOVIE, if so I blinked an missed it.

All I saw, all the majority of people saw, was a stupid error needlessly repeated and amplified, I don't give a shit about the EU or arguments about the EU, as a self contained piece of fiction that moment was unexplained, jarring, and really bad.

If your answer is "ah yeah, that WOULD look really stupid if you didn't read your background notes homework!" then you can fuck the hell off.
I believe Prak was referring, as I was, to the mistake made in the original movie.

I don't think as of now, that anyone is in particular defending poor script writing in a mediocre movie with a mediocre director, except of course to say that it is a dumb line in a mediocre movie by a mediocre director written by committee, and probably not that important.
Prak wrote:The shit about asteroid fields is a perfectly acceptable way to cover Lucas' brain fart and isn't that obscure, I wouldn't think? Given that this argument has lasted at least as long as the fucking internet?
Technically, the point was about a black hole cluster. So to an extent, the fact that you don't know what the formerly cannon/possibly still cannon reason is, it would seem to be evidence in favor of PL's point that Force Awakens probably shouldn't have mentioned it. Which is fine, because like... it was a dumb mistake then, so why repeat it?
Last edited by Kaelik on Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Prak
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Post by Prak »

Pretty much. My point is, largely, "who cares?" This wouldn't even be a thing if a few million nerds hadn't had a sexual awakening in 1977 when they saw really good visual effects.

Edit: Ok, I got the space phenomenon wrong. Maybe that strengthens the point that it shouldn't have been repeated, but I do think it shows that the retcon doesn't rely on extensive EU reading to know about (the general idea of) it. How much that matters.... eh.
Last edited by Prak on Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Wow, Prak, way to go freaking the hell out over trying to pretend someone else is freaking the hell out.

It's a bad bit. It is one of the worst moments in the Force Awakens. It is NOT explained in (any) of the movies, most especially not in the Force Awakens. Your desperate and frankly venomous freak out defense of even that one bad bit is the crazy.

And no. "But everyone should have heard internet excuses by NOW!" Isn't any fucking better of an excuse for that one really bad moment than demanding people go read their background homework.

And before you get to it, also no. "With sufficient effort you should be able to come up with an elaborate rationalization all on your own that somehow excuses the seemingly insane statement" is also not any good because THAT is still a jarring and unpleasant moment in the film if you respond by doing that instead of just going "WTF movie?".
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Prak
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Post by Prak »

Because I'm fucking tired of this nerd dickwaving competition. Just acknowledge Lucas is a hack and move on with your lives.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
PhoneLobster
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Post by PhoneLobster »

What discussion do you even think you are having here Prak, because seriously, what the hell?
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Post by Prak »

I think you're two pages into an argument about the stupid parsecs thing.

Edit: also I think my head and back are fucking killing me today and I didn't sleep well, and food and caffeine only help so much and I should drop this whole thing.
Last edited by Prak on Thu Dec 31, 2015 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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