So... Star Wars [Spoilers]

[Stahlseele]

Trek VS Wars would not work, too different in ship combat style.
Wars Versus Galactica would be closer, as both make heavy use of small fighter craft and missles / rapid fire weapons rather than capital ships for their combats.
Also, Trek and Wars / Jedi would try to out autofellate themselves competitevly to see who has more sun shining out of their collective arses . .

Also, i do not think Dr.Who should be in there anywere at all . .
Rather get Babylon 5 into it.

All other arguments about compatibility aside, Star Trek, Star Wars and Doctor Who are the three biggest, most popular and culturally significant sci-fi franchises in the world. Babylon 5 and Battlestar Galactica do not even begin to approach the zuggernaut levels those three have.

Also, there's already been a Star Trek/Doctor Who crossover courtesy of IDW, so we've gotten partway there already.

I could have gone for Lexx instead . .

That sounds almost as stupid as a Fallout and MLP crossover.

*coughs* https://www.fimfiction.net/story/119190 ... -equestria *coughs*

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

OH SHIT SOMEONE ELSE KNOWS ABOUT MOTHERFUCKING LEXX! Most entertaining sci-fi show I've ever seen, nothing else compares to its weird combination of insanity and... a lesser, more creeping insanity.

[Ancient History]

Well, first season anyway.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

Yeah, the first season is the best and it definitely gets worse, but it's always unique.

[OgreBattle]

Lexx had hot blue clavicles right


Star Wars reviews are even more accurate when you replace any reference to the thing Lucas made to Mcdonalds

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Trek VS Wars would not work, too different in ship combat style.
Wars Versus Galactica would be closer, as both make heavy use of small fighter craft and missles / rapid fire weapons rather than capital ships for their combats.
Also, Trek and Wars / Jedi would try to out autofellate themselves competitevly to see who has more sun shining out of their collective arses . .

Also, i do not think Dr.Who should be in there anywere at all . .
Rather get Babylon 5 into it.

All other arguments about compatibility aside, Star Trek, Star Wars and Doctor Who are the three biggest, most popular and culturally significant sci-fi franchises in the world. Babylon 5 and Battlestar Galactica do not even begin to approach the zuggernaut levels those three have.

Also, there's already been a Star Trek/Doctor Who crossover courtesy of IDW, so we've gotten partway there already.

I could have gone for Lexx instead . .

That sounds almost as stupid as a Fallout and MLP crossover.

*coughs* https://www.fimfiction.net/story/119190 ... -equestria *coughs*

Fun fact for people old enough to remember Nifty and the old WotC forums: Kkat wrote Fallout: Equestria. Keep that in mind when you get to the vomitsturbation scene.

[Sir Neil]

Fun fact for people old enough to remember Nifty and the old WotC forums: Kkat wrote Fallout: Equestria. Keep that in mind when you get to the vomitsturbation scene.

That's a name I haven't heard in a long time.

[Iduno]

Can someone explain why people seem to like either the latest Star War or the one before it, and hate the other?

[Stahlseele]

It's a generational thing i guess.
The ones who grew up with the original and the ones who grew up with the imitation stuff.
Old Testament new Testament.

[Kaelik]

Can someone explain why people seem to like either the latest Star War or the one before it, and hate the other?

Because JJ Abrams made a boring repeat of a New Hope because he is untalented and has no ideas, then Rian Johnson tried to subvert some of the main conventions while working within the requirement that he had to make an Empire Strike back plotline but also it was also bad because while he may have ideas, most of them aren't very good, and JJ Abrams said he hated it.

So people who liked the first movie where told in advance of seeing the second movie by the directors of the first and second movie that the second movie was about taking a big dumb on the first movie (Also the movie itself kind of tells you that almost explicitly by having the first scene be Luke throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder and saying "fuck off"). This created some polarization.

Unless you mean Rise of the Skywalker?

In which case the answer is the same thing again, but because JJ Abrams took back over and spent an hour of runtime reseting the concluding events of TLJ and setting up the status quo so they can tell the story again and pretend TLJ didn't happen.

Basically, there are two directors literally having a pissing contest with Star Wars movies as their piss, and also neither is extremely proficient or talented or revolutionary as a director.

[Lago PARANOIA]

It's my expert opinion that:

A) People who liked The Last Jedi don't really like Star Wars or the premise of Star Wars. That movie sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of canon, even properties off of the beaten path like Rogue One and KotOR. And not in a good way. It doesn't care about any of the plot points established in TFA (understandable) and goes out of its way to shit on the genre tropes of previous movies.

B) Going by Rotten Tomato scores for The Rise of Skywalker and The Last Jedi, most critics don't like Star Wars. I can understand the dissonance for TRoS (though I haven't seen it) but what's behind TLJ's? The subversions are only compelling if you somehow disdain the lore of Star Wars but are somehow obsessed with it. Which doesn't make it a bad movie; KotOR2 disdains the lore of Star Wars in an obsessive way as well, but it's still a good game. But I strongly doubt that this dynamic describes most critics.

What did these TLJ-loving critics see in TLJ?

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

I didn't watch TLJ, but perhaps it wasn't blatantly aimed at children and/or manchildren like every other movie in the franchise? I have a friend that liked it and he's more of a Star Trek guy anyway.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I didn't watch TLJ, but perhaps it wasn't blatantly aimed at children and/or manchildren like every other movie in the franchise?

People have porridge for brains if that's the case. TLJ wasn't any more mature, thought-provoking, or deep than the rest of the franchise (unless you think fake-subversions are deep). A lot of the popular adult shit people like right now such as Game of Thrones and The Watchmen is as infantile in aesthetics and metanarrative as any random Star Wars movie except for Attack of the Clones.

If that's the reason why the critics loved TLJ much more than other Star Wars movies, these people need to be forced to wear a diaper in public while holding a briefcase and wearing a press fedora until they admit that they have just as childlike tastes as anyone else.

But then again, it's apparently still a shock when I say that Chrono Cross is one of the worst video games ever, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

People have been shitting on Chrono Cross for the last 20 years, what the fuck are you smoking?

[Username17]

The New Trilogy movies are about as subtle as wrecking ball. The subtext about the movies being a new generation of Star Wars material made by fans of the old Star Wars material who want there to be more Star Wars but don't have anything new to say - that's not subtext. That's just the actual text.



So if TFA is a movie about fans of Star Wars by fans of Star Wars for fans of Star Wars, TLJ is a movie by for and about critics. Everything in the subtext and indeed the text of that movie is just jerking off film critics. That's the whole thing. The movie exists merely to act as a stand in for movie critics to critique the previous films. It doesn't go deep on deconstruction or go into the weeds on talking about The Lore or anything. It's not a movie for Star Wars writers or fans of the Star Wars setting, it's just criticism of the Star Wars Movies as movies. That's it. That's the whole thing.

Now you might think that movie critics would react to such blatant pandering by at least being offended at the crass attempt at manipulation. But it turns out that people are so nakedly tribal that they'll support a meandering brain addled vile criminal like Donald Trump as long as he performatively hates the right people. Affinity Fraud doesn't have to be subtle or clever, the affinity portion covers up even the most glaringly obvious flaws in the fraud. Make a movie about how movie critics are awesome and movie critics will happily bark and clap like trained seals. It's genuinely that simple.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

People have been shitting on Chrono Cross for the last 20 years, what the fuck are you smoking?

Stop acting dense. Like with Fire Emblem 7 and D&D 5E, you can find plenty of people who think the game is godawful, but the opinion of that game among critics and gamers at large is that it's a cult classic and even a masterpiece.

Same for TLJ. Assuming sites like MetaCritic and Rotten Tomatoes are a representative slice of the movie critic-verse as a whole, the idea that the movie has redeeming aspects and is worth seeing is the orthodox one.

[Darth Rabbitt]

It might be the orthodox view for critics that The Last Jedi was good but the view that actual people have appears to be “the worst movie I’ve ever seen. Star Wars is Ruined FOREVER”. I’ve literally only met two people who liked the movie. I’m not even defending it (I am tired of hearing people claim it somehow vindicated the prequels, but as I would say to them, “being better than something bad doesn’t make it good.”)

I’m also curious as to why you think Attack of the Clones was more mature than the rest of the movies, unless you meant you meant you thought it was less. It has the dumbest plot of any Star Wars movie not called The Ewok Adventure, The Clone Wars or The Star Wars Holiday Special.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

...but the opinion of that game among critics and gamers at large is that it's a cult classic and even a masterpiece...

[Citation fucking needed]

[hyzmarca]

OT: You defeat the Dark Side by refusing to give in to your anger and rejecting violence.
PT: You defeat the Dark Side by accepting that you aren't omnipotent, accepting that there are some things that you can't change, and refusing to vainly try to force the universe to comply with your will through violence (Anakin failed at this).
ST: You defeat the Dark Side by getting very angry, embracing violence, and forcing the universe to conform to your will.

[Shrapnel]

...but the opinion of that game among critics and gamers at large is that it's a cult classic and even a masterpiece...

[Citation fucking needed]

Well, the idiots at GameInformer seem to really like it, but outside of them... I can't really say I've seen many people who like Chrono Cross. It's the Other M of video games.

As an aside, I would say the new Star Wars is "okay". I liked it better than TLJ, but that ain't a high bar. I felt the Palpatine angle was kinda outta nowhere. Like, I know that Palpatine was hyped in the marketing for the movie, but in the film itself there's no build-up. We are literally told in the opening text-crawl that Palpatine is back! ... somehow. It's rather jarring.

Overall, though, it wasn't, like, jawbreakingly terrible. I'd rate it a solid Search for Spock out of First Contact.

[Prak]

I haven't seen RoS yet, but I enjoyed Force Awakens and Last Jedi, and I've been loving Mandalorian.

I will say... while I saw all the previous SW movies, even going out of my way to, I was never very big into Star Wars. In general, I'm not a fan of space opera. I enjoyed the Force Awakens because the characters entertained me, and there were allusions and nods to the original trilogy that I understood, while also setting up characters to be demonstrably wrong when they were objecting to things in-universe ("That's not how the force works!" Um, Han, the Force would like you sit down and shut the fuck up, it's got shit to do).

Mandalorian has a compelling character and is an entirely different genre, more space western than space opera. It has a main character with an ethical framework I can side with, and even if his method of reacting to and solving problems is different from how I might if I were playing a character in those situations, he gets to the same endpoint.

Iunno. Everytime I see Frank talk about a movie or something, I come to realize more and more that I engage very shallowly with entertainment unless it particularly intrigues me. Laser swords and aliens and robots? Cool, I'll shut my brain off for a couple hours, do your thing. Morally complex bounty hunter from an interesting culture who runs around being a space gunslinger? Now you've actively interested me.

[Username17]

I’m also curious as to why you think Attack of the Clones was more mature than the rest of the movies, unless you meant you meant you thought it was less. It has the dumbest plot of any Star Wars movie not called The Ewok Adventure, The Clone Wars or The Star Wars Holiday Special.

I would certainly agree that Attack of the Clones has the most mature targets of any of the movies. It has the thesis statement of the entire prequel trilogy, and it's dark as fuck:



The Prequel Trilogy was supposed to be about the rise of fascism, and Lucas had a lot of clear insight into this process. His predictions that we would see the rise of fascism over the escalations of inane trade deal minutiae turns out to be spot on. Who knew?

Attack of the Clones is marred by clumsy storytelling, a fucking awful romance, and some of the cringiest unintentional comedy in Star Wars history. I mean, for fuck's sake:



That's really bad, alright? It's just really bad. And between that and the whole thing where the movie made it so Vader wasn't related to Owen and knew where he lives while the original trilogy plainly stated the opposite and people were mad about Attack of the Clones. And they had a right to be. It's clumsy and most of the movie doesn't hold together very well as a stand alone work and taken as part of the series it works even less well. The call backs fail utterly because of how badly the potential romance with Amidala was set up in TPM with Anakin being played by an autistic 8 year old, and the call forwards are expletive inducing because Lucas never allowed continuity editors to go through his script drafts and match them to setting declarations from the Original Trilogy.

But Attack of the Clones is absolutely the movie that has the biggest big boy pants in the entire series. The political subplot is dark, prescient, and actually quite chilling. But a lot of people don't notice because bad romance and messy storytelling. I mean, that movie has Elan Sleazebaggano in it. When it's not doing its galaxy brain takes on the fail states of democratic government, the movie is a fucking mess.

-Username17

[Josh_Kablack]

I liked all three of the new movies. Liked, not loved.

I found The Last Jedi to be a fun ride while I was watching it in the theater,
but with a whole bunch of "Wait, WTF, that makes no sense?" moments that became obvious within ten minutes of discussing the flick waiting for the bus home. (Space bombers, lightspeed tracking out of nowhere, no force mumbo-jumbo to set up the Holdo Manuever, Holdo being introduced just to martyr herself instead of having Leia do that in a trilogy about passing the torch to the new generation, Holdo not telling Poe "we have a plan, but it needs to stay secret", the space chase being set up as a ticking clock but than Rose and Finn having a slow-moving sidequest elsewhere defusing the tension of that, etc.)


Conversely, I found Rise of Skywalker to be more of a paint-by-numbers Star Wars entry -- enjoyable for what it was, but not nearly as fun of a ride during the runtime as Last Jedi, but many fewer gaping holes of plot logic to complain about afterwards. (not none, just fewer)

But the Abrams -Johnson - Abrams transition makes the new trilogy pretty jarring overall. It's basically a Mad-magazine fold-in of a trilogy, where the meaning is very different when you see or don't see the middle part. And that's not a compliment about subtlety of messaging - it's a complaint about lack of focus. I'm not sure if the mistake was to bring JJ Abrams back, or if the mistake was to not have JJ Abrams do all three.

[Josh_Kablack]

The overall problem with the franchise is that the 1977 film was a true cultural milestone. It shifted the entire film industry (production, marketing, release schedules, target demographics, etc), the popular perception of science fiction as a genre, how toys were marketed for my entire childhood and so much more. Heck, Elon Musk named as actual rocket after the Millennium Falcon and that's not even weird.

And so trying to come up with "the next Star Wars" is attempting an impossible task. Your movie is not going to be that influential. So you have three options:

1. Swing for the wall behind the bleachers behind the fences. And then have a movie people hate for being too ambitious and failing.

2. Play it safe with fanservice to fans of the prior movies. And then have critics trash you for just rehashing prior plot points.

3. Try to do something radically different with the property.And then have fans hate you for screwing up existing continuity and ruining their nostalgia trip.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I’m also curious as to why you think Attack of the Clones was more mature than the rest of the movies, unless you meant you meant you thought it was less.

As Frank pointed out, the basic plot of Attack of the Clones is more 'adult' (as in, inappropriate for children) in several ways.
[*] The twin conspiracies of the movie (The Trade Federation is a front and the clone army is a Manchurian agent), while very stupidly handled, is also sufficiently abstract in its antagonism that you need to know a few things about military bureaucracy in order for it to work.
[*] The Good Guy Jedis are indifferent to the suffering of slaves and we see a direct consequence of it.
[*] The love interest forgives the hero despite his admitting to killing children.
[*] Also Anakin admits in an earlier scene that he's fascist right in the middle of a lovey-dovey romance scene.

Attack of the Clones is more adult than the rest of the cinema franchise by a wide margin, even moreso than Rogue One -- which despite being more somber in tone, having slightly more violence, and killing off the heroes, is a basic black-and-white good guys story that doesn't require much knowledge of politics.

So in addition to having a really stupid plot and bad acting, the basic plot of the movie is 'adult' in a way that's inappropriate for a franchise. The tale of a child-killing fascist still being on the 'good guys' side and the heroine falling in love with him is something I'd expect out of Game of Thrones, not Star Wars.