Review/Drinking Game: Warhams 40k 7Ed: Send Help

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Voss
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Post by Voss »

maglag wrote:First point costs. Loyalist scum basic dudes 13 points each. Remember when they costed as much as 3 guardsmen before grenades? Grav-pistol for sergeant at 7 points (which remember now you can shoot them in close combat), and the squad's most expensive upgrade is the multi-melta at a whooping 27 points. Which it's somewhat fair as now they can move and fire that sucker with BS 3 while frying through cover.

Oh, and summons come out of your army'point cost now, kinda like reserves except you have some choice on what you want to summon after the game started. This is pretty good news since it stops all the summoning chains sillyness that was going around.

GW pulls a really weak excuse to why point costs are not on the main datasheets because "saving space" and that it'll "make it easier to errata costs on the fly for balance purposes". Neither sounds really plausible, since datasheets have plenty of space for a few more numbers and that wouldn't stop publishing errata, but at least GW promising to be willing to change the point cost of stuff more regularly to fix what's broken would be a step up from the current "your army sucks, wait 1d6 years for a new codex/supplement".
I have to agree. The data sheets are irritating trash. That they leave out a couple rules and the points (and instead include power which is pretty unworkable at a glance) makes them pretty useless. A simple spreadsheet for each faction would be more useful, and just as easy to update.
Stat line for unit
Indent - attached special rules
Repeat
Stat line for guns.
Complete!
Hell the back of the book summaries were about as useful as these stupid data sheets.

Getting rid of Universal special rules is also galling. Thin out some of the crap ones? Absolutely! Turn the game back to an exception based mess of special rules by unit? Go fuck yourselves.

Summoning is definitely a good change. Not having infinite armies in a balanced game is just... Obvious.



@banshee. A lot of the excitement comes from the fact that it isn't as bad as 7th. While it has some stupid shit, there is a chance to play a functional game without being absolutely shit on by the crazy garbage they packed into the last edition.
Last edited by Voss on Sat May 13, 2017 2:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Shrieking Banshee »

Voss wrote:@banshee. A lot of the excitement comes from the fact that it isn't as bad as 7th. While it has some stupid shit, there is a chance to play a functional game without being absolutely shit on by the crazy garbage they packed into the last edition.
But it still sounds like crazy garbage.
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Post by Username17 »

Table Top Miniatures Games have a huge entry cost. Like, hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours huge. You don't get into a minis game because maybe it sounds cool. To get into a table top miniatures game, you gotta know that there are going to be other players.

A new edition of Warhammer 40K is a big deal even though the rules are shit. It's a chance to put your several hundred dollar army on a table and play the game again. Your hobby literally only exists if there are other people in your area who are currently willing to play the damn game. It doesn't matter that the new rules are shit, they are different, and that'll bring a lot of people to the table again.

People are excited about the new edition of WH40K because of Sunk Costs Fallacy and the crushing realization that no one is going to make a new Table Top Miniatures game with the critical mass of market penetration needed to actually get games together unless it's some sort of licensed Star Wars or Batman thing in the next ten years.

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Post by maglag »

Image

For the glory of Kayos!
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Post by shlominus »

Koumei wrote:Half the changes seem to be overreactions to other changes
that does indeed seem to be the case.
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Post by Voss »

Chaos Daemon faction preview: not just an advertisement! Also an admission that they're currently kinda broken.

But now....

Khorne also get furious charge +1 (the +1 being an extra attack)
Tzeentch still gets better invulnerable saves, but has to pay for extra horrors. [So something of a net loss, in fact]
Slaanesh gets to break the order of combat, and gets stupid AoS rules that grant bonuses if the unit is big. [win more for winning!]
Nurgle gets a special saving throw which amounts to better Feel no Pain.

I don't see any of these being problematic at all. :screams:
Last edited by Voss on Sun May 14, 2017 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by maglag »

We also got the new rending in daemonettes with to-wound rolls of 6 granting AP-4.
Voss wrote: Khorne also get furious charge +1 (the +1 being an extra attack)
Also +1 to Str.
Voss wrote: Slaanesh gets to break the order of combat, and gets stupid AoS rules that grant bonuses if the unit is big. [win more for winning!]
Blobs for the blob throne!

Although to be fair it's hardly the first time 40K gets rules like that. Ork mob rule used to make them virtually fearless if they had enough boyz in a squad.
Voss wrote: Nurgle gets a special saving throw which amounts to better Feel no Pain.
In 7th edition FnP was ignored by things that inflicted instant death.
In 8th edition things that inflicted instant death are now inflicting multiple wounds so you'll need to succeed at that multiple times.

So not that much better, in particular in scenarios like S8/7 vs common Nurgle T5.
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Post by Voss »

maglag wrote:We also got the new rending in daemonettes with to-wound rolls of 6 granting AP-4.
Missed that. Excessive. Better than lascannons and on par with roasting someone with microwaves.
Voss wrote: Khorne also get furious charge +1 (the +1 being an extra attack)
Also +1 to Str.
Yes. That's the 'furious charge' part.

Voss wrote: Nurgle gets a special saving throw which amounts to better Feel no Pain.
In 7th edition FnP was ignored by things that inflicted instant death.
Yes. That's the 'better' part.
In 8th edition things that inflicted instant death are now inflicting multiple wounds so you'll need to succeed at that multiple times.
That's... a damn weird assumption on your part. Nothing has ever functioned like that. You roll for wounds after toughness, armor, invulnerable and all associated junk. You don't determine wounds then start rolling tests and saves. That's even more ass backwards than rolling armor after toughness. :bored: (because it would actually matter from a statistical standpoint)
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Post by maglag »

Voss wrote:
Voss wrote: Khorne also get furious charge +1 (the +1 being an extra attack)
Also +1 to Str.
Yes. That's the 'furious charge' part.
Also triggers whetever you're charging or being charged, so pseudo Counter Attack too.

Voss wrote:
In 8th edition things that inflicted instant death are now inflicting multiple wounds so you'll need to succeed at that multiple times.
That's... a damn weird assumption on your part. Nothing has ever functioned like that. You roll for wounds after toughness, armor, invulnerable and all associated junk. You don't determine wounds then start rolling tests and saves. That's even more ass backwards than rolling armor after toughness. :bored: (because it would actually matter from a statistical standpoint)
The ability specifically triggers when an unit would suffer wounds, so you must roll for them first. Also it's exactly named like the AoS ability:
Disgustingly Resilient: Roll a dice each time this unit suffers a wound or mortal wound; on a 5 or more, the wound sloughs away rancid flesh but does no real harm and is ignored.
Which has been clarified as needing to be rolled per wound, not per attack. It's also how Regeneration worked in Warhammer Fantasy before that. An Hydra was hit by a cannon, you needed to roll multiple times to shrug it off. Thus past experience indicates that big weapons will still be more effective against Nurgle stuff.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

maglag wrote: Although to be fair it's hardly the first time 40K gets rules like that. Ork mob rule used to make them virtually fearless if they had enough boyz in a squad.
I recall that at one point in time the "ideal" (ab)use of the Ork army mob-up mechanics involved a few max sized blobs (I guess choppas in the forward and shootas in the back); with as many min-sized special/assault weapon squads behind them as possible. The mechanics being that Orks are immune to breaking until they fall under a certain threshold; however when they do break, they also get to make "mob up" attempts with each and every squad of orks that's behind their falling back corridor (iirc). Even a low point cost force could get to (ab)use the Ork "mob up" rules by having a 24(+) ork blob, one squad of burna boys, and one of tankhuntas, behind them.

Of course, the real trick is tjat those special weapon squads you'd prefer to be within your boyz mob fallback corridor is stuff like Burna boyz, who operate best as close in to enemies as possible. Position and maneuver cleverness is helpful.
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Post by maglag »

Strategems.

To use those you need command points (CP). You get 3 of those base, moar for formations as discussed earlier, and some characters may add more like Bjorn the Senile.

Which stratagems you can use depend on mission and faction, but there are three base that everyody gets all the time:

-Re-roll any single dice for 1 CP. Simple. Rage when it fails anyway.

-Counter-offensive for 2 CP allows you to break the normal charge priority and have one of your units stab something after one charging enemy has finished fighting. I guess this is what they meant by the "daemonettes/bashees almost always stab first".

-Insane Bravery for 2 CP makes you auto-pass a morale test. More blob support!

Overall I find those interesting because all three are more of reactive abilities, stuff you want to use when something went wrong, not "win moar". They also give an out-of turn player decisions to do.

Here's hoping the faction-specific ones are also reactive stuff and GW does a token effort to keep them balanced.
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Post by Voss »

They aren't balanced as is. A single reroll (or even two) doesn't compare to 'any amount of models don't die of morale' or 'you get to fuck the turn order to inflict casualties before you take them.' The latter is especially huge because it can completely render the morale one unnecessary (or make the enemy spend points on that)

It also leads to fucking weird game decisions where you only want to engage one of your units so your enemy can't screw you with it.
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Post by maglag »

I would agree that normally a single re-roll doesn't compare to the other two. But now and then a single die-roll may prove critical to a game. Re-roll a save to keep your uber commander on the table, re-roll that 1 on damage to finish off a big target, re-roll a psychic test to stop your super psyker from blowing off their own brains and instead super smite the enemy, etc.

Plus it's something that everybody gets. Problem will would be when if, say, loyalist scum get 3 awesome stratagems and chaos gets 3 crappy ones.
Voss wrote: It also leads to fucking weird game decisions where you only want to engage one of your units so your enemy can't screw you with it.
It's not any weirder than your average TCG since they aren't spammable abilities. If you over-extend yourself you risk making yourself vulnerable to a hard counter. So you want to apply the right kind of pressure to make your opponent spend their CP for lesser gains before going all out.
Last edited by maglag on Mon May 15, 2017 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by saithorthepyro »

Overall the message I'm getting is that GW is in throwing stuff at the wall mode and seeing what sticks. Until I see the full product, I'm just going to assume they threw random suggestions into a hat and used whichever ones got pulled out first.

Either that or Cruddace, Ward, Kelly, and Vetock got drunk and this is what was interpreted from their ramblings.

Also, base space marines are 13 points? They better have changed Veterean Guardsmen cost, because otherwise my drunk author theory is probably not wrong.

Cheaper costs does fit with the idea of this being Hordehammer 40k.
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Post by Voss »

Pretty sure half those people don't work for GW anymore. Anyway, a lot of what they are actuslly doing is looting past editions and pulling a Frankstein, like 5th edition D&D.

Problem is a lot of those design ideas just don't work together. Morale is an obvious one, since it's just a fudge of Instability from past editions of fantasy (particular when you could summon undead and daemons at will, it was the negative counterpoint).

Vehicles with toughness and wounds go all the way back to first edition. Since it unifies the mechanics and gets rid of the mc vs vehicle problem (particularly the piloted suits that were MCs because they were stronger that way), I'm not going to complain

Removing blasts, too, seems like a moment of sanity. But it comes from the cities of death expansion in 3rd edition

Now, mortal wounds seemed to be applied with a dart. Basic psy powers and scorpion mandiblasters are not where I would have stuck auto wounds with no saves of any kind. Center point of a death strike missile, perhaps, but not something you can just load up on (in certain armies).
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Post by maglag »

Voss wrote: Vehicles with toughness and wounds go all the way back to first edition. Since it unifies the mechanics and gets rid of the mc vs vehicle problem (particularly the piloted suits that were MCs because they were stronger that way), I'm not going to complain
Funny thing is, vehicles in Rogue Trader had both wounds and random damage tables. And different types of vehicles had different ones if I remember correctly.

Plus mechs as monstrous creatures were never really gone, with stuff like the Wraithlord and Talos Engine, then Tau Crisis suits and Necron tomb spyders and then the Derpknight.

Something completely new they're doing for 8th is a fresh to-wound chart. The old progression somehow survived all of the previous 7 editions completely unchanged!
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Post by OgreBattle »

Primaris marines are the bigger space marine models and are the Cael improved marines coming with 8e with their own rules and weapons

I don't like this idea, would've been simple enough to just say "this is mkX armor marines" and ignore their slightly larger scale

https://www.warhammer-community.com/201 ... ge-post-4/

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Post by Stahlseele »

So . . are they a step between Speech Mehringues and Custodes then?
And who in their right mind tried to fuck with the emperors work AGAIN?
That went horribly wrong once or twice before already if i remember correctly.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Tau units are also mentioned

Pulse sniper drone weapon is s5 with no ap, so basic weapons for most troops will probably not have any ap value. A reasonable decision for a tabletop battle game.

That big no-arms tau battlesuit with the weirdly open topped cockpit can fire 10 weapons at 10 different targets, but now its "stabilizers drven into the ground" ability only gives it +1 to hit instead of doubling firepower.

Battlesuits have the 'fly' tag which lets them shoot after withdrawing from combat. They're doing a lot to boost horde staying power but also reduce tarpitting.

These rules changes all sound good so far, I really don't like the idea of Primaris Marines though... but I can see why they'd want the guys with 100+ SM models to buy 100 more.

More daemonically empowered chaos marines are also hinted at to counter the primaris marines.
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Post by saithorthepyro »

Voss wrote:Pretty sure half those people don't work for GW anymore. Anyway, a lot of what they are actuslly doing is looting past editions and pulling a Frankstein, like 5th edition D&D.
Which ones? I heard Kelly was fired, but Ward was re-hired, and I haven't heard or found anything about Cruddace or Vetock getting the sack.
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Post by Koumei »

Stahlseele wrote:And who in their right mind tried to fuck with the emperors work AGAIN?
Bell-end Cawl and Rowboat Gullyman. So take it up with the giant robotic tech-priest with the star-in-a-gun and the giant ancient space marine.
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Post by Shrieking Banshee »

Now, this just makes me laugh. I follow the 40K Lore for fun, and this is just such a flat out marketing ploy.

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Post by OgreBattle »

Chainswords now give an extra chainsword attack in assault, neat. Differentiating them from "I has a knife" is good
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Post by Stahlseele »

I never understood why chainweapons are depicted as being so goddamn strong. Force weapons should rule supreme technically.
Versus lightly armored infantry, yes, a chainweapon may be a gruesome weapon, think most orks, eldar, imps and tyrannids . . But as soon as you have to deal with somewhat heavier armor, aka speech mehringues and similar things like the tau battlesuits, the chain teeth should be patently useless. Whereas force weapons should have no problems dealing with any kind of enemy because they do not care about armor at all. Vaporizing stuff is better than ripping apart and getting stuck right?
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Post by Username17 »

Well, whether a vibro blade or chain sword or rotary ax or whatever is better than a plasma torch or a monofilament edge or whatever other futuristic bullshit melee weapons your setting has is entirely up to the bullshit technobabble your setting supports. The amount of torque you can get out of an engine or a flywheel is very very high, and if for some stupid reason you wanted to unleash that on things you could touch with a stick, then some variant on the angle grinder is a perfectly valid way to cut shit up.

You could imagine a universe where armor was so good that you pretty much had to grind equally tough materials against it at several thousand RPM to get through. And in such a universe, some sort of buzzsaw, vibro blade, or chainsword would be the thing to use. I mean, I'm not sure why we aren't just setting off explosions and turning the people inside the armor into black currant jelly, but if for whatever reason we are consigned to doing all this shit with melee weapons, then it's at least plausible.

Now in the broader sense, differentiating between different kinds of close combat weapons is all bad.

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