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Review/Drinking Game: Warhams 40k 7Ed: Send Help
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The fundamental issue is that Games Workshop is not in fact particularly good at math. And the second and incredibly related issue is that Warhammer is not a particularly deep game and uses very large piles of dice such that is quite ammenable to statistical analysis. The process of calculating expected kills by multiplying chance to hit times chance to wound times chance to penetrate armor times number of shots and dividing that by points cost to get offensive efficiency is literally called "mathhammer" because it's so easy to do and so important for evaluating warhammer options.

What this leads to is a situation where the general effectiveness of a weapon against various different targets as compared to its points cost is understood in the warhammer community in a matter of minutes, but is a complete mystery to the chucklefucks actually writing these things. And the only reason that there isn't a single all-purpose weapon choice for all seasons is that different enemies have wildly different levels of resilience and even calculate their resilience differently.The less meaningfully different types of enemies you are likely to encounter, the less weapons there is any reason to have. The people designing these things are basically throwing darts at a wall, and there's going to be a best weapon against each type of foe and it's going to be really easy and obvious to figure out.

So if you eliminate the weird idiosyncracies that make troops and monstrous creatures and vehicles different, all you're really doing is making the game even stupider.

-Frank
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Whiysper
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

re: Flamer templates.

I'd put money that part of the problem is D-Scythes - Strength D template weapons. They basically delete whole units when they get in range (or Deep Strike...).

Wouldn't be at all surprised to see the 'Wall of Death' rule be adopted (D3 auto-hits) for firing templates in every phase, not just as overwatch. And frankly, having used ScytheGuard, I'd be very bloody happy with that nerf!

On everything else? Not sold yet. Wounds works better than AV (even if you memorize the vehicle damage table) in both speed of resolution and consistency, but tracking that a Rhino has 10 wounds...? Fuck that. Here's hoping for more sensible wound totals.. but not expecting it from the Nottingham boys.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The concept with doing a lot of wounds is that you also go back to having heavy weapons inflict a lot of wounds. And then you just have fucking hit points and damage rolls and everything becomes an accounting nightmare.

The bottom line though is that there really isn't a lot of difference between hitting twice, getting two shots, and doing 1d3 wounds. Those are somewhat different at the margins and there will obviously be times when you'd rather get a mediocre result than an extreme result or whatever the fuck, but these differences are extremely minor bullshit and no one cares. By the time you've rolled these things seventy fucking times there really isn't going to be a great statistical difference from these various things that average the same output. You roll dice and apply multipliers in a different order but it doesn't fucking matter.

The templates were a pain in the ass, but they created a true distinction between themselves and a weapon that hit more times or fired more shots. There were situations in play where a template was better or worse than rolling to hit twice. And that's important, because you can't trust GW to make interesting and meaningful decisions pop out of the math alone. Because let's be honest: they are bad at math and don't bother doing it when writing the army lists.

-Frank
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Whiysper
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

True. I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt, and see them stick to largely <6 wounds, but rumblings of Rhinos with double-digit HP.. yeah, not positive.

On the templates, yeah, I'd only really looked at it in terms of stats, but on the table they do differentiate themselves from (for example) Deffguns with their D3 shots. Auto-hit will still be different, but if (heaven forfend) then move to roll to-hit, then inflict xDx hits, and some of those inflict xDx wounds... then fuck that. Hard.

Must drink my optimism back up, brb Smile.
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maglag
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bolter Bitches join the Shadow War! And everybody can take eviscerators. Also Inferno pistols. Acts of faith are re-roll of 1s on melee and ranged attacks for everybody for 1 round without need of any fancy checks.

And the Inquisition has arrived too.

Plus 8th edition is upon us. All older codexes will become invalid so seems like full rules revamp. Core rules will be free, all current armies supported promised.

Quote:

Why should I not just stick with current Warhammer 40,000?
This is the version of Warhammer 40,000 you’ve been asking for.

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maglag
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

GW created a dedicated site for 40K

All armies organized in three main factions, Imperium, Chaos and everybody else foul xenos. Sisters of Silence seem to be getting in the spotlight as dedicated witch hunters. Chaos meanwhile has a whooping 4 subfactions, spiky marines, daemons, 1000 sons, and new Death Guard replacing Khorne Daemonkin.

Also seems like 30K will not be updated to 8th edition rules. Whetever it's lazyness or they're leaving it as a backup in case things go horribly wrong is anyone's guess.
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maglag
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

First unit stats are out.

Highlights:
-Initiative is out, replaced by movement stat. A speech merine has 6, a termie has 5.
-WS and BS are changed to "hits on a X+ in melee/ranged" respectively.
-A dread only has 8 wounds along toughness 7 plus a 3+ save, so I guess you can stop worrying about metal boxes rhinos having double digits on that. Rowboat has 9 but only toughness 6.

I'll let somebody else calculate how many lasgun shots you need to take out a dread now (yes, anything can wound anything on a 6+ at worst now).
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Great, so you need more than a simple d6 on the base of a Dreadnought. Meanwhile, the actual thing that made people hesitant to take tanks before (mass fire of small-arms grinding the HP off / occasional squads of Eldar with haywire - oh look, once again the problem is caused by Eldar) is even more of a big deal as any old guardsman or flood of gretchin can just hammer away with death by a thousand papercuts.

So from a perspective of "Encourage people to have lots of models on the table, thus buying more minis" that's a good plan.

From basically everything else in the Q&A thing it reminds me of when David Cameron promised people the moon in the last UK election (before shooting himself in the dick and running away while the country fell apart). Or when the D&D guys promised everything to everyone regarding 5Ed (was it Mearls in charge of empty promises?) Or when some enterprising individual made their own fantasy heartbreaker in the secret playtest leadup to 4th or possibly 5th and used bullet points of their project as leaked info of D&D, saying how everything just worked so perfectly, then admitted it was his own thing so why not go buy that...

So between it being Games Workshop saying it, and a history of this sort of broad promising turning sour, I am (perhaps unfairly) assuming it's all bullshit and they don't have a clue what they're doing behind the facade. But it's amazing how many credulous dickheads are just buying it all up and declaring that, because GW says things are great, it must be so.

Outright removing Initiative to be replaced by the charging rules is an interesting thing. On the one hand, it means you don't get innately fast things in combat unless it's written in as a special rule for them, on the other hand it does make positioning and charging a bit more important - you can't just go "Well whatever, I'm faster anyway so I'll probably kill them before they get their turn, more attacks or not". For that one thing I'll wait to see how it turns out before poo-pooing it.

It does mean that any "I make weaker attacks but normally strike first and have to rely on doing enough damage before the enemy counters" type unit (Banshees, Daemonettes, all Dark Eldar infantry, arguably Genestealers, arguably Bloodletters) are going to need something to compensate. Either great Movement rates/Charge Distance bonuses (to help them get that first strike) or simply making them stronger so they hit harder whether they charge or not, or something else. It's not beyond possible reason that they will implement such a thing for some of those units, though.
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maglag
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
Great, so you need more than a simple d6 on the base of a Dreadnought.

I'm pretty sure every gamer worth their salt has some D8/D10/D12 laying around.

Koumei wrote:

So from a perspective of "Encourage people to have lots of models on the table, thus buying more minis" that's a good plan.

Between that and the removal of templates looks like GW wants to make horde armies great again!

Koumei wrote:

Outright removing Initiative to be replaced by the charging rules is an interesting thing. On the one hand, it means you don't get innately fast things in combat unless it's written in as a special rule for them, on the other hand it does make positioning and charging a bit more important - you can't just go "Well whatever, I'm faster anyway so I'll probably kill them before they get their turn, more attacks or not". For that one thing I'll wait to see how it turns out before poo-pooing it.

It does mean that any "I make weaker attacks but normally strike first and have to rely on doing enough damage before the enemy counters" type unit (Banshees, Daemonettes, all Dark Eldar infantry, arguably Genestealers, arguably Bloodletters) are going to need something to compensate. Either great Movement rates/Charge Distance bonuses (to help them get that first strike) or simply making them stronger so they hit harder whether they charge or not, or something else. It's not beyond possible reason that they will implement such a thing for some of those units, though.


Greater movement seems to be the base plan. Eldar will be faster than spech merines, and bashees will probably be even faster, so they're more likely to get the charge and strike first.

Which reminds me, there will be no more standardized flier rules, each flying unit will have their own special movement.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

maglag wrote:
I'm pretty sure every gamer worth their salt has some D8/D10/D12 laying around.


Every Western roleplayer. Exclusive wargamers will have two things: d6, and funny variant d6 (Artillery and Scatter). And then you have countries where dice come in the six-sided and imaginary varieties, and those are your choices. Now I get how you don't want to put four tokens on a vehicle for "Crew Stunned", "This Weapon Destroyed", "This many Hull Points remaining" and "Smoke Launchers Used" along with perhaps "Already Fired the HKM" and "Already Used Fire Barrels" and whatever else you can think of.

Don't get me wrong, it was getting out of hand before when you added HP counters and standard "unit is doing things that affect its options/your attacks" counters and individual damage results and single-use equipment. So simply doing the thing where the number of Wounds determines how handicapped it is can remove a fair amount of hassle. But instead of this they could do a thing where there's a steeper cut-off on telling weaker weapons to GTFO, and a better chance of stronger weapons simply outright detonating the vehicle, with a much narrower space in between, and either doing away with HP as a concept completely or keeping them as very small, hard-to-remove things.

Quote:
Between that and the removal of templates looks like GW wants to make horde armies great again!


Which is generally terrible. If they're that desperate to make people buy lots of individual things to put on the table (rather than making "100 of 1" and "1 of 100" equally good and accepting that most players will choose the latter for cost, effort, and generally cool-looking factor), they should go back to an Epic system, where you just have 20 models on a base, counted as one unit with one statline, still removed by one good hit. Then you could even put 3 tanks on a single base and do the same thing, or have one super-heavy that works out just the same.

Quote:
each flying unit will have their own special movement.


The game was so close to that being the case anyway that they might as well actually declare this. I mean you didn't just have Flying Vehicles and Flying Monstrous Creatures, you also had an Infantry that could choose to move like a FMC, Flying Super Heavy Vehicles, Flying Gargantuan Creatures, the three (lol five) Aircraft Roles and two special flying stats, the Supersonic and Hover Mode rules... that had become so out of hand that the standardised rules were practically meaningless and I'd almost welcome something just having "This thing flies. Against ground targets, it gives -2 to shoot it and can't be punched. It moves minimum 12 inches and maximum 36 inches with one 90 degree turn, or 60 if it doesn't shoot or turn. It ignores terrain."
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maglag
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
maglag wrote:
I'm pretty sure every gamer worth their salt has some D8/D10/D12 laying around.


Every Western roleplayer. Exclusive wargamers will have two things: d6, and funny variant d6 (Artillery and Scatter). And then you have countries where dice come in the six-sided and imaginary varieties, and those are your choices.

Hmmm, how popular is 40K tabletop outside of western countries anyway? I've actually seen their miniatures being sold at shops in China, but nobody actually playing or painting so far.

Koumei wrote:

But instead of this they could do a thing where there's a steeper cut-off on telling weaker weapons to GTFO, and a better chance of stronger weapons simply outright detonating the vehicle, with a much narrower space in between, and either doing away with HP as a concept completely or keeping them as very small, hard-to-remove things.

On the other hand we've seen over the recent years that "mechanic" units with wounds like Dreadknights and Riptides are pretty damn tough despite being technically killable by simple lasguns. Having T6+ along good armor save and lots of wounds has proved being obscenely durable against basic weapons.

Koumei wrote:

Quote:
Between that and the removal of templates looks like GW wants to make horde armies great again!


Which is generally terrible. If they're that desperate to make people buy lots of individual things to put on the table (rather than making "100 of 1" and "1 of 100" equally good and accepting that most players will choose the latter for cost, effort, and generally cool-looking factor), they should go back to an Epic system, where you just have 20 models on a base, counted as one unit with one statline, still removed by one good hit. Then you could even put 3 tanks on a single base and do the same thing, or have one super-heavy that works out just the same.

But around 20-50% of the point of 40K tabletop is painting your units in detail and coming up with cool poses and conversions and fancy heraldry and whatnot.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

maglag wrote:

Hmmm, how popular is 40K tabletop outside of western countries anyway?


In the wealthier ones it's popular enough to have a presence at all (unlike the vast majority of roleplaying games). Big enough that they translate stuff and sell to them, which for GW is a fucking effort, but given Japan has much better model production, they're not taking the crown for "producing plastic mecha kits" any time soon.

Quote:
Having T6+ along good armor save and lots of wounds has proved being obscenely durable against basic weapons.


You say that, but against Toughness *6* things, the standard has basically been to just pump hundreds of lasgun shots into them. At five or less, you can fling a S 10 weapon their way and watch them die in a single hit. At seven or more, Lasguns are straight-up unable to do anything, likewise Eldar punches (Guardsmen all have Kraks of course, whereas most Eldar don't automatically get anti-tank grenades - you can safely charge your T7 monster into them and sit there waving your cock around). What that means is that Space Marines become the standard way to grind Wounds off with individual bolter rounds or Space Marine punches. Only at Toughness eight are you actually telling Space Marines they have to pay attention and start pumping their special weapons in.

Quote:

But around 20-50% of the point of 40K tabletop is painting your units in detail and coming up with cool poses and conversions and fancy heraldry and whatnot.


Sure. To many players. Others would rather just buy a pre-painted one made to their specifications so they can take it to tournaments, and probably await the day it goes fully digital. And to those who do want to paint things, do you think the majority want to paint the individual chitin and bollocks of one hundred termagants, or to paint up four big monsters with some extra detail on them? Do you think most IG players are thinking "Oh boy! I get to paint a thousand shitty men with lasguns!" or "Nice, a company of tanks painted in uniform, with their own decals and kill markers and stuff"?
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maglag
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:

Quote:
Having T6+ along good armor save and lots of wounds has proved being obscenely durable against basic weapons.


You say that, but against Toughness *6* things, the standard has basically been to just pump hundreds of lasgun shots into them. At five or less, you can fling a S 10 weapon their way and watch them die in a single hit. At seven or more, Lasguns are straight-up unable to do anything, likewise Eldar punches (Guardsmen all have Kraks of course, whereas most Eldar don't automatically get anti-tank grenades - you can safely charge your T7 monster into them and sit there waving your cock around). What that means is that Space Marines become the standard way to grind Wounds off with individual bolter rounds or Space Marine punches. Only at Toughness eight are you actually telling Space Marines they have to pay attention and start pumping their special weapons in.

When riptides first came out they dominated because lasguns/bolters simply couldn't kill them fast enough before the riptide killed the squad back, and missile launchers mostly bounced off.

What put riptides down was when SM got access to cheap grav weapons with lots of shots that wound riptides a 2+ while ignoring their armor.

Similarly you can technically wound the T8 Wraithknight with krak grenades. But you're never gonna be able to wound it fast enough before it stomps your infantry to fine paste. And Tau fire warriors with their S5 pulse rifles aren't exactly the bane of Wraithknights either.

Really, no wraithknight was ever afraid of simple S5/6 spam.

(also notice that the basic guardsmen don't have kraks by default, they need to pay extra).

Koumei wrote:

Quote:

But around 20-50% of the point of 40K tabletop is painting your units in detail and coming up with cool poses and conversions and fancy heraldry and whatnot.


Sure. To many players. Others would rather just buy a pre-painted one made to their specifications so they can take it to tournaments, and probably await the day it goes fully digital. And to those who do want to paint things, do you think the majority want to paint the individual chitin and bollocks of one hundred termagants, or to paint up four big monsters with some extra detail on them? Do you think most IG players are thinking "Oh boy! I get to paint a thousand shitty men with lasguns!" or "Nice, a company of tanks painted in uniform, with their own decals and kill markers and stuff"?


I've seen both types. Some nid players still have full genestealer armies from previous editions when there was no overwatch or fliers and having lots of rending meant you didn't need anything else.

Ork players in particular always have lots of models, no super elite core infantry option or uber transports for their troops.


And Tau players can spam kroot to troll tournaments to victory.
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SlyJohnny
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's a counter to the "deploy a massive bike force in reserve, in response to whatever setup your opponent chooses" thing, though, right?
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maglag
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes. An advantage of having lots of crappy units is using them for area denial/control.

Today GW brings out da dakka..

Highlights:
-Assault, Rapid Fire and Heavy are still in.
-As expected flamers are Assault 1d6 and have the special rule of auto-hit.
-Bolters and flamers don't have any kind of penetration so flak armor is suddenly useful and we can't call it paper anymore. That's a buff for guard and orks now that they'll be getting saves against basic weapons without needing to cower in cover.
-Even the lascannon has only -3 AP so power armor still offers a 6+ save and termie armor offers a 5+ save. But deals 1d6 wounds so bad news overall for ork warbosses and carnifexes and whatnot.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

maglag wrote:
Yes. An advantage of having lots of crappy units is using them for area denial/control.


Yes, which means people are specifically taking them for that gimmick there but if you let them purchase "We'll Build a Wall! 50 points: put a plastic barrier across the side edges, Outflank no longer works". I mean, you can just dip them in brown paint then slightly different brown ink, then paint black dots in for their eyes.

Quote:
As expected flamers are Assault 1d6 and have the special rule of auto-hit.


They also have the special rule of being utterly shit against mobs. Which is basically the exact thing you used to use them for. So auto-hit means they still ignore cover (because that's built into To-Hit roles?) but the enemy gets their full saving throw no matter what shitty armour they had. And when they're trying to force 20 models through a narrow gap, you're not going "Hey, half your models, dick-face". At least some armies have nineteen choices aside from flamers so they can just ignore them.

Quote:
Bolters and flamers don't have any kind of penetration so flak armor is suddenly useful


It's even worse than the simple -1 that I predicted, so yeah, bolters (and as mentioned flamers) are completely shit at wiping out weak chumps. Oh well, you can just mass-fire them at Titans I suppose.

Quote:
Even the lascannon has only -3 AP so power armor still offers a 6+ save and termie armor offers a 5+ save. But deals 1d6 wounds so bad news overall for ork warbosses and carnifexes and whatnot.


And good news for any vehicle with 7+ Wounds, and also for Terminators. So by continuing to be excited at their promises of it being yuge, you are setting yourself up for disappointment, and I will enjoy pissing in your chips.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

maglag wrote:
Yes. An advantage of having lots of crappy units is using them for area denial/control.

Today GW brings out da dakka..

Highlights:
-Assault, Rapid Fire and Heavy are still in.

It seems unclear what rapid fire actually does. Unclear if you get a double tap (at full range?) if you stay stationary, or if exists purely in contrast with assault weapons, which presumably can still be fired and the user can still charge.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
maglag wrote:
Yes. An advantage of having lots of crappy units is using them for area denial/control.

Today GW brings out da dakka..

Highlights:
-Assault, Rapid Fire and Heavy are still in.

It seems unclear what rapid fire actually does. Unclear if you get a double tap (at full range?) if you stay stationary, or if exists purely in contrast with assault weapons, which presumably can still be fired and the user can still charge.


I would assume the rule of getting double the shots if you're close to the enemy still remains since it's a classic and otherwise
What I find more interesting is that is Rapid Fire 1, meaning modularity for future weapons.

Koumei wrote:
maglag wrote:
Yes. An advantage of having lots of crappy units is using them for area denial/control.


Yes, which means people are specifically taking them for that gimmick there but if you let them purchase "We'll Build a Wall! 50 points: put a plastic barrier across the side edges, Outflank no longer works". I mean, you can just dip them in brown paint then slightly different brown ink, then paint black dots in for their eyes.

In the grimdarkness of the future, there is only walls!

Koumei wrote:

Quote:
As expected flamers are Assault 1d6 and have the special rule of auto-hit.


They also have the special rule of being utterly shit against mobs. Which is basically the exact thing you used to use them for. So auto-hit means they still ignore cover (because that's built into To-Hit roles?) but the enemy gets their full saving throw no matter what shitty armour they had. And when they're trying to force 20 models through a narrow gap, you're not going "Hey, half your models, dick-face". At least some armies have nineteen choices aside from flamers so they can just ignore them.

A loss of ~ 17%/34% killyness is not enough to downgrade from "super-effective" to "you weapons is ssshiiittt! Shhhiiiiitttt!". And as already pointed out, horde players already spread apart their models as template defense to avoid getting more than 3-4 dudes being hit at a time. If anything this saves time because a horde player no longer needs to spend 10 minutes moving each blob needing to worry about keeping them spread out while keeping coherency.

Plus if cover penalties stack, being able to auto-hit will still make flamers highly valuable against those rangers hiding in ruins and whatnot, which always was their other main use.

Koumei wrote:

Quote:
Bolters and flamers don't have any kind of penetration so flak armor is suddenly useful


It's even worse than the simple -1 that I predicted, so yeah, bolters (and as mentioned flamers) are completely shit at wiping out weak chumps. Oh well, you can just mass-fire them at Titans I suppose.

Again, they're still only 6+ and 5+ saves. Orks are guardsmen don't automatically melt out of cover but bolters and flamers will still wear them down. Besides how else are you gonna deal with blobs, fire your Heavy 1 lascannons at them?

Koumei wrote:

Quote:
Even the lascannon has only -3 AP so power armor still offers a 6+ save and termie armor offers a 5+ save. But deals 1d6 wounds so bad news overall for ork warbosses and carnifexes and whatnot.


And good news for any vehicle with 7+ Wounds, and also for Terminators. So by continuing to be excited at their promises of it being yuge, you are setting yourself up for disappointment, and I will enjoy pissing in your chips.


Termies already had 5+ invulnerables. Who is really happy are the mega-armored-nobz MANZ. In particular if they also get a wound doubling and end up with a 50% chance of being able to tank a lascannon shot even if they fail the save.

It's also entirey possible Warbosses and every monstrous creature gets a minimum of 7 wounds. We'll see.

Vehicles depends on their damage progressions. If a 1 wound Dread is moving at half speed at half attacks and whatnot, it's not that much of a threat anymore.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

maglag wrote:
And as already pointed out, horde players already spread apart their models as template defense to avoid getting more than 3-4 dudes being hit at a time.


Yes, hence I mentioned cramming models through tight spaces, the only good thing (for shooting armies) about pre-set tables full of city terrain absolutely everywhere. Fuck you, former local store.

Also, if you spread your models out, you can't actually bring as many of your models into combat when charging, you can't reach a given unit with as many of your guns, and more enemy units can reach some of your models with some of their guns (assuming they're pushing forward or you have units stepping up around the sides). The existence of flamers in those cases actually creates an interesting thing you can do there.

Quote:
Plus if cover penalties stack,


Any reason to assume they will?

Quote:
Again, they're still only 6+ and 5+ saves. Orks are guardsmen don't automatically melt out of cover but bolters and flamers will still wear them down. Besides how else are you gonna deal with blobs, fire your Heavy 1 lascannons at them?


Either fight fire with (metaphorical, not literal) fire by simply taking shitblobs - show proper contempt by just writing "20 doods" on a piece of card, or find something that gives heaps of shots (Gatling guns) or lands stupid numbers of auto-hits (maybe Basilisks will land 3d6 hits or something). But probably the former.

Quote:
Termies already had 5+ invulnerables.


Yes, but previously it was "Roll to hit (3+), roll to Wound (2+), they roll Invulnerable Save (5+)". Now there's another chance of survival: roll Wounds (2+ to kill).

I'm not worried about the fact that it's 1/6 (after Hit, Wound, Save) to outright kill a Dread, that's normal for the damage chart. On the other hand, any tank with 7+ Wounds can just straight-up tell it to get fucked. Unless taking a chunk of damage impedes them seriously (I mean a Land Raider that is reduced to 3" movement and shooting 1 weapon per turn is suddenly crippled to the point of being terrible at all of its jobs). I'm still not going to hold my breath on it being very effective, because GW are shit.
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maglag
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
maglag wrote:
And as already pointed out, horde players already spread apart their models as template defense to avoid getting more than 3-4 dudes being hit at a time.


Yes, hence I mentioned cramming models through tight spaces, the only good thing (for shooting armies) about pre-set tables full of city terrain absolutely everywhere. Fuck you, former local store.

Also, if you spread your models out, you can't actually bring as many of your models into combat when charging, you can't reach a given unit with as many of your guns, and more enemy units can reach some of your models with some of their guns (assuming they're pushing forward or you have units stepping up around the sides). The existence of flamers in those cases actually creates an interesting thing you can do there.

True, but spreading out will still has the tactical advantage of covering a wider area to block enemy movement and provide cover bonus to more important stuff behind them


Koumei wrote:

Quote:
Plus if cover penalties stack,


Any reason to assume they will?

That's why I said "if".

However I'm pretty there will still be terrain that grants huge cover bonus and units like rangers will have huge cover bonus too, so having auto-hit weapons will still have their uses.

Koumei wrote:

Quote:
Again, they're still only 6+ and 5+ saves. Orks are guardsmen don't automatically melt out of cover but bolters and flamers will still wear them down. Besides how else are you gonna deal with blobs, fire your Heavy 1 lascannons at them?


Either fight fire with (metaphorical, not literal) fire by simply taking shitblobs - show proper contempt by just writing "20 doods" on a piece of card, or find something that gives heaps of shots (Gatling guns) or lands stupid numbers of auto-hits (maybe Basilisks will land 3d6 hits or something). But probably the former.

You mean there will be a reason to take heavy bolters on units again? I see that as a good thing honestly. Horde armies were just melting too fast to basic cheap weapons so all the special weapon slots were dedicated to melta/plasma/grav and anything that could spam S6+ shots.

Koumei wrote:

Quote:
Termies already had 5+ invulnerables.


Yes, but previously it was "Roll to hit (3+), roll to Wound (2+), they roll Invulnerable Save (5+)". Now there's another chance of survival: roll Wounds (2+ to kill).

Haha, yes. And plasma will probably be dealing less wounds so termies overall gain a survivability boost.

Koumei wrote:

I'm not worried about the fact that it's 1/6 (after Hit, Wound, Save) to outright kill a Dread, that's normal for the damage chart. On the other hand, any tank with 7+ Wounds can just straight-up tell it to get fucked. Unless taking a chunk of damage impedes them seriously (I mean a Land Raider that is reduced to 3" movement and shooting 1 weapon per turn is suddenly crippled to the point of being terrible at all of its jobs). I'm still not going to hold my breath on it being very effective, because GW are shit.


They did a pretty spiffy job with AoS monsters so I'm optimistic.

Grabbing the first thing I could find as an example, a Carnosaur starts with 10 move, 5 bite attacks and hitting with their claws on a 3+, and when on their last wounds is reduced to 6 move, single bite attack and hitting with their claws on a 5+.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
maglag wrote:
Yes. An advantage of having lots of crappy units is using them for area denial/control.


Yes, which means people are specifically taking them for that gimmick there but if you let them purchase "We'll Build a Wall! 50 points: put a plastic barrier across the side edges, Outflank no longer works". I mean, you can just dip them in brown paint then slightly different brown ink, then paint black dots in for their eyes.



Ninjas at work.

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maglag
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Go fastah! Movement rules.

-Running Advance is now done in the movement phase. Everybody can do it, vehicles included. Standardization, yay!
-Fliers indeed have minimum movement speeds depending on which unit and can go over enemies.
-You can now fall back from any melee you want at the start of your turn, but then that unit can't shoot/charge/run advance for that turn either.

The last change seems like a big bonus for shooty armies since it will make harder for melee units to block shooting simply by getting stuck in melee. Tar-Pitting becomes less effective too.

On the other hand spech merines kinda had that already with ATSKNF, doubly so with white scars doctrine. Except better since they could run away, shoot you in the face then charge with bonus again. So may as well let all shooty armies have some fun instead of that imperial guard commander deciding they can't shoot the basilisk at the enemy commander and their bodyguards because there's a couple doomed guardsmen in the way.
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Actually, our blood banking system is set up exactly the way you'd want it to be if you were a secret vampire conspiracy.


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Voss
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Glad they formalized what most people already did anyway. Picking up all your units to move, then going back to pick them all up to run was bullshit. Most people I played with starting doing their run moves with movement back when 3rd edition came out.
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maglag
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Psyker Powahs

-Every psyker can cast X powers per turn by rolling 2d6 and comparing against the power's Warp Charge DC. Good to see things simplified, and yay no more cheap psyker batteries!
-Perils still in.
-Mortal wounds from AoS added, aka ignore all saves, including Inv.
-Enemy psykers can try to nope.jpg your powers if whitin 24. So 4th edition. Can try to deny as many times as they can cast on their own turn.
-Every faction will have their own personalized school at launch. No word if you roll at random for picking though. At least there seems to some level of standardization after all.
-Also every psyker knows the Smite power, casting DC of 5 deals 1d3 mortal wounds to the closest unit within 18. Or deals 1d6 mortal wounds if you get a result of 10+. Auto-targeting is interesting, and if it applies for other psychic nukes, would make positioning and meat shields a lot more important.
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Actually, our blood banking system is set up exactly the way you'd want it to be if you were a secret vampire conspiracy.


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Voss
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Smite is pretty crazy, especially with psyker spam armies. 5+ to cast on two dice is trivial, and autohit, auto wound, no saves of any kind is fucked up for 5+. Armies that can't field 10+ defensive psykers to counter 20+ psyker armies are just going to see entire units melted away each psychic phase with jack shit to be done about it.

If you can't position to strip 10-15 ablative wounds off the juicy center you probably couldn't have won anyway.

Especially since the signature psyker spam armies have mounts/jump bullshit all over the place.


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