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Review/Drinking Game: Warhams 40k 7Ed: Send Help
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mlangsdorf
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
It looks fucking awful is what it looks like.


As a moderately skilled mini painter, I look at that and think "I fucking don't want to paint that."

The little jewels, sandwiched between the multiple layers of unconvincing floaty shit? Those are going to be a bitch and half to reach with brush. You'd spend hours retouching shit.

It looks fucking awful when painted by master painters with all the time in the world and a small fortune in paints and fine tipped brushes. I can't imagine what it's going to look like when painted by a slightly clumsy 16-year old with a handful of carefully hoarded fine-tips and 30-40 paint bottles.
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Zaranthan
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
but that still leaves Orks, Nids, Tau and Tyranids as individual armies just sort of... sitting with their thumbs up their asses.


I'm okay with Shrooms and Bugs being simply so numerous that they stand alone against the alliances. The Tau were the first faction to suggest that different species might actually have interactions other than shooting each other, so have them be mercenaries that hire themselves out to the alliances and bugger off before the dust settles and they start looking vulnerable.
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Koumei wrote:
...is the dead guy posthumously at fault for his own death and, due to the felony murder law, his own murderer?

hyzmarca wrote:
A palace made out of poop is much more impressive than one made out of gold. Stinkier, but more impressive. One is an ostentatious display of wealth. The other is a miraculous engineering feat.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The problem is one of pie division. Right now Eldar are the consensus best list and in big tournaments they comprise about as many players as space Marines. But even having the best army and also restricting our gaze to a cohort that is overtly trying to win and able to travel long distances to do that, the Eldar combined team is a distant second to the Imperium as a whole. All other factions combined don't equal Space Marines or Eldar, and a lot of those factions are like Guard and Grey Knights and shit.

The combined forces of Chaos are a drop in the fucking bucket, although from the standpoint of tournaments if Chaos Marines were ever good then you would see a lot of marine players splash some pink around and call themselves traitors.

From a flavor standpoint the Tyranids are giant beyond imagining and care naught for alliance, but if you jumbled all the Tyranids, Orks, Tau, and Necromancer together they still wouldn't be a coequal cohort. There just aren't enough players of the non-elf alien races to give each one of them a pie slice. Minor factions are minor.

-Frank
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maglag
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Remember about discussing which loyalist primarch would return first in 40K?
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Why is Papa Smurf bigger than a Terminator? He's a primarch, not a giant. Magnus the Red was a giant, Papa Smurf was just a dude. A dude with all the stupid Space Marine shit that makes him like 3 meters tall, but other than that, just a dude. There's no reason for him to be more than a little bit taller than all the random Ultramarines who all bear his geneseed.

-Frank
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Red_Rob
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maybe the geneseed got diluted over time and back in the day all Space Marines were gigantic monstrosities?

Or maybe the Primarchs were just regular space marine size however humanity has shrunk over the intervening 10,000 years. Perhaps Ogryn are actually the last remnants of the original strain of humanity? What a tweest!
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Voss
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
Why is Papa Smurf bigger than a Terminator? He's a primarch, not a giant. Magnus the Red was a giant, Papa Smurf was just a dude. A dude with all the stupid Space Marine shit that makes him like 3 meters tall, but other than that, just a dude. There's no reason for him to be more than a little bit taller than all the random Ultramarines who all bear his geneseed.

-Frank


Actually, no. The primarchs have been consistently described as bigger than marines. They aren't the results of the same process. Marine 'gene-seed' was made from scraps of the primarchs after they were magically whisked away from Terra.

They've waffled a bit, but the implicit suggest is Emperor has godhood and made 20(21) demigods to help him conquer the galaxy. The marines always have been a step down from their origin. This seriously goes back to the 2nd Realm of Chaos book in 1990.


Oh, holy shit. They brought the correct color scheme for dark angels back. (weird nostalgia moment- first army, and they changed that for no reason with third edition)


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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
The primarchs have been consistently described as bigger than marines.


Sure. But there's bigger and there's bigger. Only one of the Primarchs is specifically a giant relative to other marines. All the others are just bigger, prettier versions of the normal thing. You know, plus or minus wings or some shit. But one of them is a "giant," all the others are just big dudes. Only one of them should be towering over a set of terminator armor to the point of needing a monstrous creature base. And Papa Smurf isn't that one.

-Frank
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maglag
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Primarch always were pretty huge.

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Normal spech merines are about 3 meters tall, but as you can see normal humies only reach waist level of a primarch.
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FrankTrollman wrote:

Actually, our blood banking system is set up exactly the way you'd want it to be if you were a secret vampire conspiracy.


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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The nob gobblers in that picture are humans. The Primarchs are like double the height of 1.7 meter dudes. That's bigger than normal Speech Marines, but only by like a foot and a half. Definitely do not qualify for monstrous creature bases.

-Frank
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deaddmwalking
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

From the fiction I'm familiar with, the Primarchs all 'fit in' with whatever planet they ended up on, just better, stronger, more awesome. I'd think mentioning they were all freaking giants would be something that would have come up more in the brief description.
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Zaranthan
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
Definitely do not qualify for monstrous creature bases.

If your complaint is just about the large base, that could be explained by GW actually making a game mechanic decision based on game mechanics rather than "lol lore". The primarch minis probably cost zillions of points, they should at least jam up the board like a Carnifex. As a bonus, you can dogpile them like one, since you KNOW those fanfic fappers gave old Papa Smurf half a dozen wounds and a 2+ Invulnerable Save.
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Koumei wrote:
...is the dead guy posthumously at fault for his own death and, due to the felony murder law, his own murderer?

hyzmarca wrote:
A palace made out of poop is much more impressive than one made out of gold. Stinkier, but more impressive. One is an ostentatious display of wealth. The other is a miraculous engineering feat.
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maglag
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

For the record here's Vulkan's FW model along a 30k salamander:

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


And here's 30k papa ultrasmurf along Vulkan and silver hands:
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


So primarchs using bigger bases already had several precedents.

Now to see how different their rules end up.

EDIT: Also it seems like GW spotted the leaks and decided to release better preview pics themselves. Papa ultrasmurf can be modelled with an helmet on! What madness is this?

EDIT EDIT: And 30K Magnus leaks!
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


Mind's Wrath looks extremely boss and should make 30K Magnus the ultimate shooty primarch, including good chances of 1-rounding warlord titans.
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FrankTrollman wrote:

Actually, our blood banking system is set up exactly the way you'd want it to be if you were a secret vampire conspiracy.


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Koumei
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The reason is absolutely one of design and production capabilities and "hey look at this fancy thing, come give us your money". I am going to go out on a crazy limb that you already know that and are pointing out that it's stupid, which is entirely correct. But nonetheless...

1. Big things seem to sell pretty well. Not just "crazy named stuff that holds important lore and whatever", but just straight up "is actually big". Knights sold out faster than anticipated for their first run, and part of that was the whole "It's a Lord of War class thing that you can take squads of outside of Apocalypse (if you can spare the points), has great stats" and part of it was "I remember Knights from Epic!", but a big part of it was "Look at the fucking size of that thing. Look at all the parts on the sprues, you will get erect assembling that."

2. With their design software and production facilities, they can make bigger shit than before, but also they can sort of make fancier shit. There's actually some stuff they can't do as well as before (from what I understand, having small studs all over armour is actually a huge pain in the ass for them), although "big bursts of entangled flames and wavy shit" is something that they obviously can do, as seen in half the fucking content lately. See: Ynnead, Lord of Change, Exalted Flamer, Burning Chariot, Brimstone Horrors, Old Shaggy Naggy, Death Lords, THIS FUCKING THING I MEAN SERIOUSLY WHAT THE FUCK, Spirit Hosts, and of course this fucking mess.

Overall the CAD software has some very solid upsides, but there is too much wavy shit going on with all the ghosts and flames and odd shaped feathers and everything. But yeah, they're basically playing to their strengths of what the software is good at and allows.

3. It wouldn't surprise me TOO much if they want Rowboat Gullyman to be bigger so he's "easier for kids to paint". That's kind of cynical from my part, but it would fit their general "sell Spess Mehrins to kids" MO.
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OgreBattle
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It sounds like the Eldar and Mechanicus revived him

They should just make the AoS chaos warriors a 40k army of Chaos daemons
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Lion's helmet was supposed to be too big for a normal marine to wear, IIRC, so it gets carried by a Watcher.

OTOH, Papa Smurf is using a powerfist with built in bolter...is that the same one than normal marine size Calgar uses that's mentioned to have been used by Guilliman, and it changes size like the One Ring from LotR?

(Also, that bit about Alpharius being able to trade place with normal marines and humans not noticing...yeah, if he's a few metres taller than might be a giveaway)

I'm going to say "this looks a bit silly".
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Zaranthan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thaluikhain wrote:
I'm going to say "this looks a bit silly".

It's WH40k. If it's not a bit silly, you're doing it wrong.
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Koumei wrote:
...is the dead guy posthumously at fault for his own death and, due to the felony murder law, his own murderer?

hyzmarca wrote:
A palace made out of poop is much more impressive than one made out of gold. Stinkier, but more impressive. One is an ostentatious display of wealth. The other is a miraculous engineering feat.
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OgreBattle
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Special rules for the Ynnead aligned Craftworld/Harlequin/Dark Eldar:
https://imgur.com/a/dbR41#V66DnGv

Highlights include...
- leadership shenanigans and soul eating like Slaanesh
- Psychic dickery like Tzeentch
- Buckets of extra assault dice like Khorne
- FNP, regen like Nurgle

Some units can 'soul burst', when any other unit dies near them on their opponents turn you can imemdiately move/shoot/assault with them.

It's a list that seems to want you to make a deathstar out of the Ynnead triumvate... who can perfectly deepstrike whenever any unit (friend/foe) is completely wiped out. They do a lot of stuff with wiping out units.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Eh. Their feel no pain rule is pretty bad. Especially compared to dark eldar, who got better at it each turn.

But I guess the want to hover around their new avatar to get it improved... but they want units to die so their big units can do extra actions...
gotta love contradictory rules design.


Also, including 'the' in alphabetical lists is fucking offensive.
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OgreBattle
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List




Rowboat's back (Revived by Yvraine and Belisaurus) with Cypher & a new Grey Knight old dude

Quote:
Macragge:
As the ultramarines fight the black legion in the fortress hera guillimans stasis is turned off. Yvraine tells him to never leave his armor, everything else about his ressurrection is a secret.

Laphis:
Shrineworld laphis is overrun by the alpha legion. With Guillimans tactical genius (CREEEEEED) he is able to outmaneuver them and frees the world.

The maelstrom:
Guillimans fleet in caught in the warp by a maelstrom on its way to terra. Thousand sons and after that red korsairs stop his quest to reach terra for a while (another article later in th wd speaks about magnus showing up and having a chat with roboute which could lead to a fight).

Luna:
As papasmurf cant reach terra without the 1ksons following him he leads the now so called "terra crusade" (dont know where that name comes from but thats how its called in the article) to the terran moon luna. There he faces his greatest ordeal but even in all his hopelessness he has a plan.

Holy terra:
Homeworld of the imperium where empi sits on his throne. Its a world of stagnation, sorrowness, distrust and fear. For guilliman its a soul shattering experience. (Foreshadowing because of soul shattering).

Kind regards
Neratius, Munitorum priest


http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/02/must-see-plastic-primarch-cypher-minis.html

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/02/40k-gathering-storm-iii-rise-primarch.html

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2017/02/the-path-to-terra-gathering-storm-part-3.html

Would be neat if this storyline ends with the Imperium splitting in two, everyone's space marines so might as well have canonical reasons for them to fight each other all the time.


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Voss
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That picture text.... Welcome to the Age of Emodark.
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

And it's true.
The Imperium is literally based on the Teachings of Lorgar, the very first heretic Primarch.
The ones Big Daddy E sent the Smurfs to destroy Monarchia over.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Stahlseele wrote:
And it's true.
The Imperium is literally based on the Teachings of Lorgar, the very first heretic Primarch.
The ones Big Daddy E sent the Smurfs to destroy Monarchia over.


Eh. That isn't the issue. It's more his reaction of /slitwrist and whine. Based on his characterization, his actual reaction should be: 'And now I get to build my own damn empire, and do it right.'


The shitty nature of the Imperium is a different issue, one that is still problematic for the HH narrative (at 30-odd books): lots of people saw this coming. There were warning signs hanging from just about every tree, and every powerful psychic in goddamn galaxy knew the two likely outcomes and what it meant. That definitely includes the Emperor, which offers only two solutions: he was either the biggest idiot ever, or the galaxy of shit was, for some reason, a goal or necessary stepping stone to the actual goal, which makes him a lying asshole.
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Omegonthesane
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Clearly in the grim darkness of the far future reanimated leaders aren't allowed to go cry in a corner for a few days as they process all the shit they missed. Even a Primarch is going to be a little bit stressed at what came to pass.

Characterisation-wise... see what he does rather than relying on emo quotes.
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Some speculation has it that both ways horus winning/big e winning would have lead to catastrophe and thus instead of trying to secure a highly improbable win he went with securing a stalemate instead that would not fuck up too much in either direction . .

Also, between the horus heresy and 40k there is literally ten thousand years of untold and unknown history. . 35k or 33k or whatever has the war of the beast, where appearantly at least vulcan was just fine and dandy and still around somewhere. And then came the internal strife.
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