Review/Drinking Game: Warhams 40k 7Ed: Send Help

[Stahlseele]

They are now asking (via a facebook page or something) what people would like to see brought back for a limited time from Space Marines or Chaos. Apparently the people of 4chon are talking about finding something that looks really fucking stupid (alternatively, daemonettes with nipples, or Doom Rider) and rigging the results to make sure their choice gets in and GW "have" to release something that looks awful (or has nipples). Or Doom Rider.

#bringbacksquats!

[Voss]

They are now asking (via a facebook page or something) what people would like to see brought back for a limited time from Space Marines or Chaos. Apparently the people of 4chon are talking about finding something that looks really fucking stupid (alternatively, daemonettes with nipples, or Doom Rider) and rigging the results to make sure their choice gets in and GW "have" to release something that looks awful (or has nipples). Or Doom Rider.

#bringbacksquats!

Can't. Those moulds are long gone.

I can see them doing a random one-off thing like with the genestealer cult to throw down a double handful of plastic 'squat' redesigns that aren't connected to anything.

[Stahlseele]

but . . but . . space dorfs!

[Voss]

but . . but . . space dorfs!

90s GW committed really hard to burying them as much as possible.

Modern GW will bring back pretty much anything to fuck its corpse, so they might actually happen, but they'll have to start over with new models.

You can always get the terrible-to-bland Mantic 'Forge Fathers' if you really have to sink your cock into low-grade Space dwarfs.

[OgreBattle]

Ork Freebootas with a codex as extensive (and hopefully better written) than the Eldar Corsairs would be nice. Tricorn hats and bracers of pistols ahoy.

[maglag]

-Rubrics with special weapons!
-Cult termies!
-A daemon primarch!
-Ahriman on a disk!
-Beastmen!

sssqqquuuuueeeee!!!

CHANGE FOR THE CHANGE GOD!

Yeah, the rules will suck with 99% chance, daemon Magnus won't have any chance against whatever OP rules Lemon Russ gets, the thousands sons will get their asses kicked by space furries in both fluff and crunch, but cool models are cool.

Oh, also something about a "Traitor Legions" supplement, as well as an "Imperial Agents" supplement.

IMPERIAL AGENTS Loyal sons and daughters of the Imperium take heart, as whilst the Ruinous Powers may seek to be in ascendance as the year wanes, the God-Emperor's most righteous agents stalk the stars ready to enact his will.
Codex: Imperial Agents contains nine subfactions of the Imperial war-machine, from agents of the Inquisition to Wyrdvane Psykers of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica to reinforce your armies of the Imperium. After all, Deathwatch Kill Teams and Imperial Assassins are just as likely to be found working alongside regiments of the Astra MIlitarum or Space Marine strike forces as they are working by themselves, giving the Armies of the Imperium increased tactical choice and scope to conquer any foe.
Within this volume you'll find background and rules for using nine smaller factions alongside your existing armies of the Imperium, from the Grey Knight Terminator squads to the BATTLE SISTERS OF THE ADEPTA SORORITAS.

Anyway with so many stuff being released, it does look like 8th edition is pretty close. So they're throwing out all the ideas they had piled up before the new rules makes them obsolete.

[Koumei]

Yeah, the 1KSons and their Termies look awesome, I'm tempted to grab some to paint. Tzeentch is probably my favourite Chaos God from a "specialist legion design" and "colour scheme" perspective. I love painting things pink, so Slaanesh gets those points (and the whole "GW wants to forget it exists because nipples, SO REMIND THEM EVERY DAY), but with 1KS you have ranges of blue and cyan gradients, as well as the bold red + gold of their old design.

The Imperial Agents thing disappoints me, because that sounds like "Adepta Sororitas: 1 HQ, 1 Troops, 1 Dedicated Transport" get stuffed into the same book as the Inquisition, Assassins and who knows what else (meanwhile Space Marines can get a new book for a new colour scheme). Basically the only way I'd like it is if they had a whole dex worth of stuff, necessitating the book being a thousand pages or so, long enough for a filibuster.

To be honest I'd love to see Dems derail a "Murdering more black people" bill by reading unit descriptions. If it breaks into an argument about Legion Custodes that'd be even better.

I suppose this is also where we might see consolidation of the rules for Legion Custard and the Sisters of Silence, meaning you possibly can do transport shenanigans (if Custard in Land Raiders, Melta Dominions in Drop Pods) and actually field them in Kill Team.

[maglag]

So they say 9 sub-factions, and mention the following:
-SoB
-GK
-SM generic
-DW
-Assassins
-Inquisition
-Astral Telepathica

That's 7, so it indeed seems like Custards and SoS would round up the book. The only Imperial faction left out would be the Adeptus Mechanicus, but those are agents of Mars, and so aren't exactly the most loyal to the emprah.

So combining SoB+SoS+Inquisition+assassins there may be the chance for a full imperial girl army with non-sucky rules. If they give the same power level to supplement SoB as they did to the standalone SoS, the end result should be pretty solid.

Or GW could just copy-pasta some stats from the netdex.

[Chamomile]

To be honest I'd love to see Dems derail a "Murdering more black people" bill by reading unit descriptions. If it breaks into an argument about Legion Custodes that'd be even better.

I've decided on a career in politics, just to make this happen.

[maglag]

Magnus stats peek.

As expected, so-so. T7 with 7W and a 4+ Inv with re-rolling 1s isn't too bad, but shooting specialists will shred him at range and melee specialists will pound him into pulp up close, as will do anything with just lots of poisoned attacks since poor Magnus failed to qualify for gargantuan creature.

On the good side 15 known powers, including a special one that they claim can one-shot a banebraid.

On the other hand, GW claims he can one-round a wraithknight with just his base stats. Magnus really cannot do that right now, even if you assume he has a Force weapon. So GW doesn't really seems able to math.

Plus SoS now available to all Imperial forces along the Cullexus, so unless Magnus has some special anti-anti-psyker rule, even if he turns out half good loyalits will just start bringing cheaper counters to shut him down. Unless Magnus ends up cheaper than Fatey, but that's never gonna happen.

[Username17]

I've never understood the desire to make playable special named characters in 40k. The galaxy is heuge like X Box and battlefields are supposed to be whole planets in size and any particular table top is a vanishingly tiny piece of any conflict, with just 200 or less soldiers in a war with a cast of hundreds of millions. Having anyone above the rank of Captain on aany table top was already laughably absurd. There's just no place or call for galaxy-wide champions to show up on any particular board.

And let's be honest, no set of stats is ever going to remotely justify a character being a galactic legend. Our boy Magnus here is ridiculously tough for a single model, but he's still going to die when your opponents focus fire on him. 7 wounds with a 60% invulnerable save just means it takes an average of 35 hits from poisoned weapons to bring his ass down. Against many kinds of attacks he isn't as tough as a squad of space marines - and those things get removed from the table all the time.

The only question is whether his powers are good enough that he can kill his points value before he inevitably gets taken out. And that's a really weird question to ask about your ultimate daemon prince primarch giant sorcerer special character from ten thousand years ago.

-Username17

[Ghremdal]

In a era where half of the top tourney armies have access to ranged D (all of them Eldar) it makes little sense to invest in a single model when a lucky 6 will remove it from play, no save.

Then again, scuttlebut is that GW is planning to do to 40k in a couple of months what it did to Fantasy with age of Shitmar, then this move is right up their alley. Remember the End Times and the great Nagash model?

[Voss]

I've never understood the desire to make playable special named characters in 40k.

GW has always been seriously confused on the concept of special characters.

They started without them, half-heartedly let them in the game, but with a serious reservation on actually using them, requiring 'opponent's consent' to actually put them on the table, and banning them from official tournaments, to the frantic fapping to them of their current period (the last decade or so).

They were also largely joke characters for much of warhammer's history. Lizards have people with names like Tic-tac-toe, and the biggest baddest ork of them all is actually Margaret Thatcher. No really, Andy Chambers made a sample goff warband for the first book with ork army lists ('Ere We Go!), and his random equipment rolls gave him a Cranial Rebuild with a Stainless Steel Skull and randomly a bonus psychic power, which turned out to be (by another random roll) a huge melee buff. And so Ghazghkull 'Mag Uruk Thraka' was born- a megalomaniac with a head injury, kicked out from random equipment tables and eventually turned into the greenest, toughest headjob in the galaxy.


But a lot of the push for special characters, actually seems driven by players- many warhammer people actually want them, partly because many have been extremely broken in a way that the generic captains and lords and whatnot can't be under the last few iterations of the rulesets.



The way Magnus is sounding strikes me as the worst of both worlds. You'll get tons of people whining about all the shit he can do, and chaos players whining with tales about how he was blown off the table.


It also feeds into the general 'big models' obsession GW (and others, like privateer) are fapping to these days. I don't really understand the appeal, as they seriously warp game mechanics in terrible ways or utterly suck shit (is vehicle? Counter with grav/melta spam. is monstrous creature? grav/poison spam).

It also coincides with a rulebook FAQ on monstrous creatures and cover. Which is generally, no, you aren't fucking getting any. Little dudes don't block enough LOS unless they're actually not that little, and sticking a piece of the base into woods doesn't help.



It's especially galling since they had a large scale wargame (that wasn't hindered by the skirmish level design that 40k employs), that had lots of room for giant things, vehicle formations and dealt with troops on the unit level rather than model level. It was Epic, and they killed it. But that is the proper place for all this supermassive, out-of-scale shit that's fucking up the game.


Personally I find the more worrisome aspect is they're putting the fluff in motion and suggesting even more legendary fucktards of ancient days will be wandering back. That is honestly a double strike, where the third is fucking Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies, resulting in Age of Smegma: 40k edition as the next rulebook (rumored to come next year, though people are still optimistically calling it 8th edition). Though I'll admit a new edition is desperately needed, as 7th (or errata edition, as I think of it) has been a clusterfuck from beginning to end). It finally got some errata itself, which is fucking huge, and fairly egregious considering how much of the edition was pure copypasta from 6th (or the 7th edition fantasy magic rules)

On the other hand, it is nice to see some love for chaos and the cult troops (and cult terminators as a surprise bonus) making a move into plastic and getting some love, even if it's smeared across multiple books because GW are assholes. The absurdly mutated exalted sorcerers seem to be missing the point of the Thousand Sons, however.

[Koumei]

Most rumours point to GW pushing the story forward in a big way that might shake things up or might not actually change anything. It'll probably be a while before the next edition, and talk is that it's just going to be another edition, not a full-on AoS. They're probably just aware that fans would actually burn their HQ to the ground.

As for the scale in 40k, it's generally assumed that any battle is basically a sortie as part of a bigger war - the campaign books drive that home where it assumes you're playing six or more battles and even those are key moments in the war and not the entirety of it. And you know what? It still doesn't feel like a war. Yes, they've been scaling the sizes up to get more moneyas technology lets them make crazy massive kits but they want to still keep rank-and-file infantry a thing.

So the game might have previously been "you field a few units with sergeants and some specialists and a tank or two, and one ~=Lieutenant to coordinate that platoon", now your standard Space Marine force is supposed to have 6-12 tactical squads, a chaplain, the equivalent of a Captain or Colonel or Major, another half dozen or so units of specialists and elites, and then maybe ten tanks (not including transports) and yes, some aircraft (insert discussion on aircraft being stupid in this scale of game, insert discussion on artillery being on the battlefield and not a kilometre away, insert discussion on nuclear weapons having a 10" diameter blast). I don't know what the next step up is where you have a few platoons and a dude overseeing them. A company?

They still haven't reached the point where it seems like an actual war, and of course it's all about the battle so despite various campaign systems being pencilled in, there has never been a set thing for working out supply lines and holding territories and establishing bases and ingratiating yourself with the local populace (hahaha just kidding, you genocide them because it's 40k) and so on. It's 100% about the bit where a bunch of dudes gun each other down. For the record I'd love to see something that uses 40k size minis but basically has the rules for Epic (scaled up to the new model sizes), that'd be awesome. I admit that few people own a basketball court on which to play the game though.

So with that very long essay on the scale... yeah. Marneus Calgar and Wolf Wulfgar von Wolfenstein and Iron Hand with the Iron Hand of the Iron Hands are basically legendary figures, and they're off doing big things. Indeed you'd think it really weird to hear "and then in a skirmish, fifty dudes per side, Eldrad was shot through the heart (and you're to blame, you give love a bad name) and died. The end." And making it standard to include these legendary figures means that has probably happened more than ten times.

Magnus PI is going to be fielded in thousands, possibly hundreds, of battles. Nearly every single one of these will be for control of a highway rest stop and gas station. Chances are in half of those he will actually be killed, whether it be from something appropriate like orbital bombardments (the Imperium really doesn't want anyone owning that bottleshop), or from lucky sniper fire. Or these:


Give them Toxin Sacs and they might get the job done.

Instead of increasingly special and super characters from the canon, I wish they'd spend a bit more effort on letting people make their own special characters that are appropriate for the size of game they're playing. So you could take an Autarch or Chaos Lord, and not just buy regular wargear options but purchase a single special rule (given a list, not "choose any special rule in the game"), customise one piece of wargear, buy one stat up by 1. Small changes but you get to say "this is my character, who has done X, Y and Z".

[Voss]

As for the scale in 40k, it's generally assumed that any battle is basically a sortie as part of a bigger war

Yeah, nothing has ever successfully communicated that (most of the time, they didn't even try). Not in seven fucking editions. By design, it's a skirmish game, where you're seriously making three fucking rolls minimum for each little dude, every time they do something. (whereas Epic you roll X dice for a unit, once) It doesn't matter if you're literally dropping nukes on their heads, or they're all on in a vehicle that blows the hell up, you deal with each dude individually.

Early days, they were much more honest about it. The sample scenario in the original Rogue Trader books is 'Battle at the Farm,' where 15 marines face off against 20 orks for a wrecked farm. (To be fair, if this sounds horribly unbalanced (it should), marines were only toughness 3 at the time, power armor was only a 4+, and guns had armor save modifiers, so against ork shooting they only saved on a 5+, and cover affected hit rolls and wasn't a save... and orks weren't BS 2)

And again, Epic is the game you go to for large scale shit. If you want full companies or multiple companies on the board, there was a game designed for that. This formation thing plaguing 40k with demi-companies (meaning 3 tactical squads, 1 assault and 1 devastator squad) and full companies (two of the above) is just crazy nuts. For one thing, being able to drop 50 or 100 marines on the table necessitates literally hundreds of orks or tyranids, which is just crazy shit.

And it still doesn't capture the scale. The 'more, bigger, go, go, go' is what put fantasy 8th edition to death. People just gave up on the giant unit sizes (and giant overpriced creatures) the game encouraged and direct sales plummeted like a stone. They were eaten by people snapping up second hand sales from people getting out, which GW saw 0 profit on.

[Omegonthesane]

Instead of increasingly special and super characters from the canon, I wish they'd spend a bit more effort on letting people make their own special characters that are appropriate for the size of game they're playing. So you could take an Autarch or Chaos Lord, and not just buy regular wargear options but purchase a single special rule (given a list, not "choose any special rule in the game"), customise one piece of wargear, buy one stat up by 1. Small changes but you get to say "this is my character, who has done X, Y and Z".

They flirted with that once with the "0-1 Chaos Lord or Chaos Sorcerer Lord or Daemon Prince" in the second CSM codex for 3rd Ed. You had twice as many points of wargear as anyone else in the codex, and some of the Daemonic Gifts were straight up stat boosts.

I wouldn't see that feeling like "making your own special character"; at the end of the day if "pick one of these special rules" is a standard option for your warlord then it's a standard option for your warlord not a unique game-changing thing like Failbaddon's "Chosen are troops now" or Fabulous Bill's "upgrades" to troop choices.

[maglag]

The 4e Tyranid codex allowed you to customize everybody's stats from the little bugs to the big ones. Basically you had a bunch of base forms and then could buy them extra stats and bioweapons and special rules at your leisure.

But yeah special characters are an excuse to add big super special rules. I
particularly like how Typhus turns your cultists into fearless zombies.

Maybe Magnus brings some special rule that buffs all Thousands Sons stuff.

[OgreBattle]

So how do Tzeench's marines compare to the supreme sorcerous might of the Imperium's Grey Knights

[maglag]

Very badly.

But then you could say the same of Tzeench's marines vs pretty much anything else in the current meta. They're pretty much the worst flavor of chaos marines right now, and chaos marines aren't that good to begin with. Traitor's Hate made them suck somewhat less, but pretty much any flavor of loyalist scum is still straight superior except when it comes to spamming Manifester level 3 sorcerors and allying with daemons.

And ironically Tzeench's sorcerors are actually worst than other flavors because you're forced to learn at least one of Tzeench's powers that mostly suck right now. So hoping the new books bring some Change!.

[Voss]

According to the previews at their shiny new community site*:

There are quite a few changes to this unit’s rules, not least of which are their, now expanded, weapon options. As you might expect, all of these are in some way sorcerously-powered, from the warpflamers that the entire squad can be equipped with (!) to the deadly soulreaper cannon, which can mow-down even power armoured foes with ease.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/201 ... sand-sons/

The previous day's previews mention that the previous warzone book had a bunch of stealth changes to daemons, but this one specifically also changes tzeentch daemons- pink horrors split into blue horrors again, and blue horrors split into 'brimstone horrors' (available only in the Warhammer Quest Silver Tower boxed game)... so get out and buy a bunch more crap if you happen to run horrors.


*though the shiny new community is explicitly 9 people who work for GW.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/abo ... community/

And the site itself is best appreciated by its front page:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/
Warning: teeth, and maws that contain portals to hell itself.

[Koumei]

So how do Tzeench's marines compare to the supreme sorcerous might of the Imperium's Grey Knights

Here's some stuff for how these new ones do:
-They harness Warp Charges on a 3+, except for Big Red, who harnesses on a 2+ and doesn't suffer Perils
-Unit leaders tend to have Mastery Level 2, it goes up from there - Magnus PI has Mastery five
-Anyone can attempt to boost their Mastery Level by 1
-They "can draw line of sight from anywhere". I don't know exactly how crazy it is - drawing LoS specifically from other models (optional restriction on them being psykers or friendly models), or "literally anywhere: you always have Line of Sight, go ham on it"
-They can choose to draw their powers from the Discipline of Tzeentch, but apparently are not forced to. Access to eleven disciplines (all of the BRB ones, all four "Traitor's Hate" ones, and the Tzeentch one)
-Some cool new powers - Magnus does have a WC 5 power that hits at S D AP 1, but it has the worthless Soul Blaze attached and is kind of underwhelming. Meanwhile, the Sorcerers that lead armies get a 1/game power used in the Shooting Phase (so not a psychic power) that is a long-range high-strength Blast Lance.

And yeah, there's other stuff based on taking expensive formations, where you get to re-roll 1s for Invulnerable Saves and improve their existing Invulnerables by 1, meaning Magnus has a 3++ with re-rolls so it's basically a 2++

And apparently it refers back to the other books, to future-proof it, but essentially lets you take any (non-named) CSM unit as a part of the Thousand Sons - they have to take the Mark (DPs have to take Daemon of Tzeentch), they automatically get Veterans of the Long Shlong for free, any psykers get access to the new Discipline, and they can join in on the formations and stuff. So basically you can actually make even your Bikes and Havocs and Dreadnoughts and Predators "Thousand Sons".

So there's some great stuff there. But I can 100% guarantee that Chaos fans will still bitch and moan about how it utterly screwed them and they never get any kind of stuff and the game is rigged against them and it's been 20 years since they even had a real rulebook.

Rumours state that the Blue and Brimstone Horrors will get a release some time next year, but seriously, fuck you GW. I don't like the annoying "split into new models" rules to begin with, this just makes it a pain in the ass where for a unit of 10 Pink Horrors you also need 20 Blue Horrors and 20 bases of Brimstone Horrors. Just don't field them, and use your Summoning to bring bigger things to bear.
Edit: apparently there's a formation that doubles the number of assholes created by splitting them, so for every Pink Horror you'd need four Blue Horrors and eight bases of Brimstone Horrors. Fuck. That.

[maglag]

So there's some great stuff there. But I can 100% guarantee that Chaos fans will still bitch and moan about how it utterly screwed them and they never get any kind of stuff and the game is rigged against them and it's been 20 years since they even had a real rulebook.

It all depends on the stuff's price. Magnus for example is rumored to be at a whooping 650 points. The exalted sorceror is said to be 160 for just ML 2 before upgrades. Rubric marines still at 23 points per dude. Scarab termies at 40 points per model without storm shields or hammers. That seems like you'll just be overrun by sheer numbers on the enemy side.

Oh, and the +1 to Inv is just for units that been blessed. So you still need to hide Magnus on the first turn.

Mostly it will come down to how much tax you must pay for reroll 1s on inv formations and whetever you can combine them at all below 2K points.

Also access to eleven disciplines is something that most loyalist scum had access to for quite a lot of time now. You know, the brb ones plus their special 4 that Traitor's hate copy-pasta'd from plus their unique snowflake chapter-specific one. That's not thousands son having the best magic variety, is just playing catch up.

And space furries will be getting new toys too. Anyone wanna bet how Lemon Russ ends a ML 6 psyker that automatically harnesses warp charges, his perils hurt others instead, and knows both the loyalist and traitor disciplines? For cheaper than Magnus?

[maglag]

And the first full reviews are out.

Units and base stuff.

Formations and detachments.

tl/dr highlights:
-The Favoured of Tzeentch Special Rule (aka re-roll failed inv saves of 1) only works in formations when you take maximum number of units for said formation. And rubric marines are still at 23 points per dude and scarab termies start at 300 points per 5 dudes. And I believe none of the formations allows for Magnus to join the party.
-Rubric marine psyker sergeants still only limited to Tzenceth spells.
-Magnus the daemon primarch of magic only knows Change and Tzenceth spells WHWQJWIHIUWHIUHQIUHIUHIUHO"JOI
-Crappy Tzenceth spells are still in, they only added 4 more to the discipline.
-Tzangor look pretty decent with T4 and Inv save at 7 points per dude.
-Pink/blue/brimstone horrors are OP as all fuck assuming you cash in for all the necessary models. In particular brimstone ones are motherfucking psyker troops for 30 points per basic squad with one of the best wound per point ratio in the game (starts at 20 wounds, 2 per base) and built in Inv saves. Sure they only have T1 but the enemy still needs to spend bullets to take them out.

So basically Thousand Sons is about bringing all the horrors and no marines. The horror, the horror...

[Koumei]

And it's still basically designed with both backwards and forwards compatibility, has actual uses (depending on how you want to roll - either mass summoning, taking advantage of lots of psykers, or having AP 3 everywhere for taking out what is still the most commonly encountered opponent outside of tournaments where people very specifically take whatever is strongest this week (Eldar)). With four new boxes, not including named characters, and really cool looking models with options.

So basically if Chaos players bitch and moan at any time before the following come to pass:
-New Codex: Imperial Guard Astra Militarum, designed to not be a super money sink for platoons, even if their formation is like the current Cadian one where it's only good at games more than 3000 points (Thousand Sons also have this problem)
-New Codex: Dark Eldar, with actual viable options no matter what "branch" you want to be
-New Codex: Tyranids, with more than just "Take Flyrants and go ham on it"
-New Codex: Adepta Fucking Sororitas, with actual plastic kits to field an entire army of them and not just some helper units to tag onto your Astra Militarum
-Anything that makes Orks viable, whether it's a new Codex or some bandaid units that can at least lift them up in the meantime

Then they're just being whiny [EDITED] as usual and you should ignore them and possibly piss in their shoes. They still get better treatment and more frequent treatment than a handful of other armies.

[Voss]

The horror thing is even worse because formations allow them to keep the super-objective-contestor rules, in all forms and apparently through all the splitting.

So not only can you cheese the fuck out the system with them, you can basically guarantee holding objectives for at least two rounds, because they form new units. Wiping them out just means you have a new unit to wipe out, and another unit after that. If you can do that at all given that they're stupid good against shooting by simply going to ground. (Close combat is a bad plan, as invulnerable saves mean you're likely to leave at least a couple in combat with your dudes, and now there are more of their dudes right there, and you're probably locked for the next round).

Horror splitting (and summoning) got excised from the game a long time ago, because it is downright abusive to any points system. I think someone on dakka worked out the math for splitting, and done abusively (with the champion locus that lets pinks split into 4 blues), 4 units of 20 pink horrors turn into an extra 2000-odd points. Another army, in other words.

Then they're just being whiny [EDITED] as usual and you should ignore them and possibly piss in their shoes. They still get better treatment and more frequent treatment than a handful of other armies.

To be fair that handful of other armies are loyalist marines, which is actually 'most armies.'
And the rumour mill is already winding up for really crazy shit around the 'first loyalist primarch to appear.' With the crazy being the forefront as one dude is insisting it will be Ferrus Mannus, who was literally beheaded, dismembered and harvested for relics (in the old christian sense of bone fragments). So the most definitely dead one.

Something something clone body and ghost in the machine soul transfer bullshit.


(More reasonable people expect the Lion, since the fluff portion of this release has the DA on hand, and all sorts of shenanigans going on in the depths of the Rock).